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Post by abaris on Jun 28, 2017 18:10:10 GMT
I have to confess, I've no idea what you're going on about here. You couldn't have spoken with the Batarians in ME1 as there weren't any to speak to. Bring Down The Sky DLC was their introduction into ME. There were literally less than a dozen volus and elcor combined across the entire game. Unless I've misunderstood you, you're crediting ME1 with introducing all these species when all it's actually done is throw down some props and less than 15 minutes of voice over. I wouldn't necessarily say that ME1 needed to do more than this per se, but if we're taking the stance that the dozens of hours of insight into the species in MEA isn't enough then it makes no sense at all that ME1 somehow did it better with some placeholders. There's more than Bring Down the Sky, as far as Batarians are concerned. There is at least one vanilla Batarian facility on one of the planets, can't remember to which quest it's tied, and they do talk to you before turning hostile. I'm also not entirely sure if you couldn't even solve the situation peacefully, but I seem to remember, you could at least let the survivors go at one point of the quest. They do talk to you and present their reasons. Secondly, you can talk to the Elkor and Volus at the embassies. Not at length, but at least to get some basic information on their nature. And thirdly, you have 4 races on your ship and you are to get a pretty good impression of the Salarians on Virmire. It's diverse, that's all I'm saying. As in having done their homework before embarking on development. But they still stick to what they developed back then and simply added one race and a pretty generic set of enemies. Everything else is just Milky Way reloaded.
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Post by derrame on Jun 28, 2017 19:01:43 GMT
no, it' doesn't make any sense why would they do that?
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Post by jaegerbane on Jun 28, 2017 19:54:27 GMT
There's more than Bring Down the Sky, as far as Batarians are concerned. There is at least one vanilla Batarian facility on one of the planets, can't remember to which quest it's tied, and they do talk to you before turning hostile. I'm also not entirely sure if you couldn't even solve the situation peacefully, but I seem to remember, you could at least let the survivors go at one point of the quest. They do talk to you and present their reasons. Secondly, you can talk to the Elkor and Volus at the embassies. Not at length, but at least to get some basic information on their nature. And thirdly, you have 4 races on your ship and you are to get a pretty good impression of the Salarians on Virmire. It's diverse, that's all I'm saying. As in having done their homework before embarking on development. But they still stick to what they developed back then and simply added one race and a pretty generic set of enemies. Everything else is just Milky Way reloaded. You've just described a section of Bring Down the Sky. I can assure you that there were no Batarians in ME1 prior to that DLC. The Codex image of a Batarian doesn't even look like they do in the game prior to the install, there literally aren't any models for how they appeared prior to the DLC. FWIW, I get the basic point you're making about diversity. The problem is arguing the devs haven't 'done their homework' when they've spent all their effort on fewer species with far more depth is an unfair stance. At best, that's a question of preference, not a judgement on content. I'm not even sure what your point is about basic information, as you're the one complaining about lifelessness. That implies more than basic information. Hell, you get to the end of the trilogy and you don't even know what a volus outside of its suit looks like. That's leaving aside the assumption that a single cluster in a new galaxy is supposed to have the same number of species as an entire galaxy, which doesn't make any sense.
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Post by abaris on Jun 28, 2017 20:05:55 GMT
You've just described a section of Bring Down the Sky. I can assure you that there were no Batarians in ME1 prior to that DLC. The Codex image of a Batarian doesn't even look like they do in the game prior to the install, there literally aren't any models for how they appeared prior to the DLC. In that you would be wrong. I haven't got the time to browse through all the side missions of ME1, but there was one of these generic facilities on some planet where you met a lot of Batarian war beasts and a Batarina crew, which you could let go or not. I remember Bring Down the Sky pretty clearly and this was an entirely different encounter. Not in any way remarkable, just one of the generic side quests, but still there. In any case, even if you were right. That still leaves a lot of other races being present as compared to MEA.
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Post by vonuber on Jun 28, 2017 20:14:33 GMT
I'm confused here - if we went back to the Milky Way, why would there be any new species at all? Complaining that Andromeda is just the Milky Way +3 is a bit odd in view of that.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jun 28, 2017 20:15:57 GMT
In that you would be wrong. I haven't got the time to browse through all the side missions of ME1, but there was one of these generic facilities on some planet where you met a lot of Batarian war beasts and a Batarina crew, which you could let go or not. I remember Bring Down the Sky pretty clearly and this was an entirely different encounter. Not in any way remarkable, just one of the generic side quests, but still there. I don't know what to tell you dude. Just read the wiki. It literally says that BDtS introduces the batarians. You can't be remembering that clearly. The only thing I can think of is that the Batarian War Beasts were basically just varren and you might have seen some varren elsewhere, but other than that I've no idea how you've managed to get this into your head. The point is really that when your entire argument hinges on the raw number of species, being unable to even remember whether or not a given species even turned up in the game clearly shows the limits of that logic.
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Post by abaris on Jun 28, 2017 20:27:33 GMT
The point is really that when your entire argument hinges on the raw number of species, being unable to even remember whether or not a given species even turned up in the game clearly shows the limits of that logic. OK, let's drop the Batarians and the Citadel. Four new species on the Normandy, one on Virmire. How many does MEA have again?
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Post by wellsoul2 on Jun 28, 2017 20:29:55 GMT
I do miss the Milky Way. Having Mass Effect where Earth is makes it different from other series like Star Wars.
I was thinking of how it could be a great story.
Make the destroy ending canon.
New protagonist on a far colony or habitat finds a working Mass Effect gate or a failsafe built into the Mass Effect system to slowly repair the gates.
You could even make it about a protagonist on a far colony and slowly they make their way through many star systems devastated by the Reapers, picking up squadmates and other lone survivors to make a crew.
I won't guess about enemies or goals but I would think there is a ton of material from the OT where you could revisit planets from ME1-3 and see how they are changed or the same.
I really was kind of disappointed we couldn't revisit the Milky Way and see what happens after the war and having the relays destroyed.
I suppose it would be a darker story but not as dark as ME3. After the jokiness of MEA a serious story might work better.
I liked MEA but it has a completely different tone which may contribute to it not being taken as seriously as the OT.
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Post by ozzie on Jun 28, 2017 20:32:29 GMT
You've just described a section of Bring Down the Sky. I can assure you that there were no Batarians in ME1 prior to that DLC. The Codex image of a Batarian doesn't even look like they do in the game prior to the install, there literally aren't any models for how they appeared prior to the DLC. FWIW, I get the basic point you're making about diversity. The problem is arguing the devs haven't 'done their homework' when they've spent all their effort on fewer species with far more depth is an unfair stance. At best, that's a question of preference, not a judgement on content. I'm not even sure what your point is about basic information, as you're the one complaining about lifelessness. That implies more than basic information. Hell, you get to the end of the trilogy and you don't even know what a volus outside of its suit looks like. That's leaving aside the assumption that a single cluster in a new galaxy is supposed to have the same number of species as an entire galaxy, which doesn't make any sense. I would disagree about the more depth thing, especially for the Kett. Their appearance is IMHO bland and unoriginal compared to the Turian and Salarians from ToS, and their concept is way too close to the collectors, yet what differentiates them most from the collectors makes them illogical. A species that just to maintain population levels needs to take several live specimens for every one they lose in combat just wouldn't use the tactics, strategy or equipment they use. As for the lack of races, the single cluster was a design decision not a requirement of the story though, if they felt that several advanced races within a single cluster was unreasonable, they could have spread the game area over several clusters quite easily by changing the galaxy map. Not that I think that overcrowding or lore prevented them, just time and inspiration, as instead of creating a third race to populate the game world they just used generic MW enemy types in the form of the Exiles who, if at all possible made less sense than the Kett. Not that all sentient races necessarily need to be advanced, an interesting sci-fi concept to explore there could have been the discovery of a race at around our present tech level living on a world that has resources that we needed.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jun 28, 2017 20:36:46 GMT
The point is really that when your entire argument hinges on the raw number of species, being unable to even remember whether or not a given species even turned up in the game clearly shows the limits of that logic. OK, let's drop the Batarians and the Citadel. Four new species on the Normandy, one on Virmire. How many does MEA have again? I really can't be bothered to go round this circle again. Just re-read the posts if you want to do that.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jun 28, 2017 20:47:34 GMT
I would disagree about the more depth thing, especially for the Kett. Their appearance is IMHO bland and unoriginal compared to the Turian and Salarians from ToS, and their concept is way too close to the collectors, yet what differentiates them most from the collectors makes them illogical. A species that just to maintain population levels needs to take several live specimens for every one they lose in combat just wouldn't use the tactics, strategy or equipment they use. Oh, I wouldn't say the Kett specifically were that in-depth. I was mainly talking about the Angara and the relationship they have with the Kett. I agree they were too close to the Collectors, but I can't see any issues with their tactics given the numbers we see them have on first contact. Their whole culture is built around being superior to everyone else and their medical tech lets them get away with tactics that would incur injuries at an unacceptable rate for any other species. Put that together and you have a foe preferring attrition tactics. They're not presented as a particularly sensible species, after all - if they were, the Angara would have been finished. To a certain extent. I don't begrudge them focusing on a single cluster as without mass relays, they'd basically have to break the lore of the universe. They could have come up with a story that sidestepped this but it still goes back to the expectation of having MEA being larger than the entire original trilogy and introducing the same number/more species plus all the AI species in a galaxy that is three times the size of the MW. IIRC Bioware mentioned that they considered trying to make the birdlike species mentioned in the website fluff back in the ME2 era, who were basically at modern-day human level +50 years, relevant in ME3, but it was ultimately judged to be a waste of effort as logically they would be stuck in one place during the game. Adding on the stuff about the AI constraints would have made it a bit of a non-starter. As I said, I wish they'd made more factions rather than simply do a Volus/Elcor etc. I think the current factions are fine but they're missing a horror-style faction, meaning MEA can't have horror quests.
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Post by jeyl on Jun 28, 2017 20:59:19 GMT
I do miss the Milky Way. Having Mass Effect where Earth is makes it different from other series like Star Wars. I'm not entirely sure that would be an accurate way to distinguish the two franchises from each other. Let me explain. Despite the fact that yes Earth does exist in the original Mass Effect games, it doesn't play a crucial role in the first two installments. It's role is so small that the closest you can do with the planet is orbit it and land on the moon. In fact, the only time Earth was ever relevant was when BioWare made it important for the sake of pathos. Shepard was on Earth when the Reapers attack, ergo Earth is now the most important planet in the galaxy to Shepard. I think a better example of how Mass Effect distinguishes itself from Star Wars is how each series treats it's alien races. Take a look at the first two original Star Wars movies and note who is fighting on either side. With the exception of that one Hoth technician who commanded the Ion Canon, every single member of the Rebel Alliance and Imperial Navy is a white dude. For a galaxy that has hundreds of space faring races in a war that will decide whether the galaxy will be free of an evil dictator, it sure seems like the aliens don't really care all that much. At least until Return of the Jedi. Mass Effect on the other hand not only gives us well defined alien races that we can get to know and understand, but they're treated like actual characters. Not some random background eye candy or the simple-minded sidekick (Sorry Chewie), but actual people who have a stake in everything that's going on. Quite the contrast when the only alien race from the original trilogy that we actually go to know were the freaking Ewoks. And if you ask me (Or take a look at my "Humanity is Special Trope" thread), I think Andromeda did the Mass Series a huge disservice with regards to how it's alien species were handled. In the Milky Way galaxy, Humanity wasn't in charge of everything since every race had their own civilization. You don't get any of that in Andromeda because by the end of the game, Humanity is in charge of the whole freaking Galaxy. All of it. They are in control of all the technology that can turn each planet into a habitable planet or a barren graveyard. And with Andromeda's insistent "Humanity loves to explore more than anyone else" trite, things don't seem like they were going to get any better. Basically, Andromeda is turning Mass Effect into Star Wars little by little. Having it be more about humans than anyone else.
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Post by ozzie on Jun 28, 2017 22:14:43 GMT
I would disagree about the more depth thing, especially for the Kett. Their appearance is IMHO bland and unoriginal compared to the Turian and Salarians from ToS, and their concept is way too close to the collectors, yet what differentiates them most from the collectors makes them illogical. A species that just to maintain population levels needs to take several live specimens for every one they lose in combat just wouldn't use the tactics, strategy or equipment they use. Oh, I wouldn't say the Kett specifically were that in-depth. I was mainly talking about the Angara and the relationship they have with the Kett. I agree they were too close to the Collectors, but I can't see any issues with their tactics given the numbers we see them have on first contact. Their whole culture is built around being superior to everyone else and their medical tech lets them get away with tactics that would incur injuries at an unacceptable rate for any other species. Put that together and you have a foe preferring attrition tactics. They're not presented as a particularly sensible species, after all - if they were, the Angara would have been finished. To a certain extent. I don't begrudge them focusing on a single cluster as without mass relays, they'd basically have to break the lore of the universe. They could have come up with a story that sidestepped this but it still goes back to the expectation of having MEA being larger than the entire original trilogy and introducing the same number/more species plus all the AI species in a galaxy that is three times the size of the MW. IIRC Bioware mentioned that they considered trying to make the birdlike species mentioned in the website fluff back in the ME2 era, who were basically at modern-day human level +50 years, relevant in ME3, but it was ultimately judged to be a waste of effort as logically they would be stuck in one place during the game. Adding on the stuff about the AI constraints would have made it a bit of a non-starter. As I said, I wish they'd made more factions rather than simply do a Volus/Elcor etc. I think the current factions are fine but they're missing a horror-style faction, meaning MEA can't have horror quests. I don't know about that, the Kett are pretty horrific with their exultation, i just don't think they were handled particularity well. I think a lot of that comes down to the open world format and needing to have regular mobs of generic enemies to shoot at. They are not particularity hard or well equipped for even conventional combat when compared to the (can't recall their name, renegade Angarans) which kinda harms their credibility. And as for their space fleet, well that 'could' have been terrifying, however as we can see by Cadara port not being a smouldering crater, they either won't or cant' use it (This though I chalk up to bad writing and another one of my problems with the inclusion of the Exiles faction). It's fair enough saying they have good medi-tech, but attrition tactics for a species unable to reproduce just doesn't jive with me, to my mind they would have to operate somewhat similar to the collectors using surprise attacks and superior less-lethal technology to ensue they were always sitting around a 4-5 prisoners for every casualty sustained.... but the collectors already did this, so you might want to go with drone technology, something like the Remnant devices, unfortunately you have the Remnant so you can't really do that either.... OK, how about giant 3 legged mecha with near impervious armour and some kind of metal tentacles scooping up prisoners... Damn HG Wells already did that one in 1897. OK I'm out of ideas The thing is, you could resolve a lot of the problems with the Kett by having a third or fourth race to provide random mob enemies. This would let you buff up and refine the Kett so they made more sense and allowed them to be a more scary nemesis and created a richer galaxy to build off for subsequent games.
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Post by FeralEwok on Jun 28, 2017 22:18:14 GMT
Member The Milky Way? Member Shepard? I member.
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Post by abaris on Jun 28, 2017 22:24:58 GMT
I don't know about that, the Kett are pretty horrific with their exultation, i just don't think they were handled particularity well. The Kett are a hybrid between the Borg and the Collectors. Certainly not a gamebreaker but certainly not something remarkable to come back to. You shoot them up until you reach the final mission where you take care of the Archon by pushing the same generic buttons you pushed throughout the whole game. While fighting hordes of spawned trash mobs. I can only say what I said before. MEA isn't bad. It's on the same lines as someone forgetting to put salt in the soup. It feeds you, but it tastes bland. I'm hard pressed to name another game that entertained me once but failed to excite me in the same way as MEA did.
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Post by XJlock on Jun 30, 2017 2:08:18 GMT
If eventually returning to the Milky Way would occur, then so be it.
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Post by griffith82 on Jun 30, 2017 2:09:48 GMT
Member The Milky Way? Member Shepard? I member. And that's where it should stay. Memories.
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