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Post by griffith82 on Jun 25, 2017 19:55:14 GMT
I may get flak for this but so be it. This whole "SJW" situation has grown way out of control. First off the term itself is offensive and second it has turned the gaming community upside down over what?! The same old struggle just in a different sandbox. Like it or not these issues exist And they have as much right to be represented as anyone else. Women have fought for decades to be looked at in the same light as men and yet anytime they jump into aisle dominated field shit hits the fan. It's the same with this and imo is BS. Same applies to all the other issues in this SJW banner. It sickens me that in this day and age we are no more enlightened than we were in the 50's.
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I don't like MP!
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Post by warrior on Jun 25, 2017 19:59:39 GMT
I may get flak for this but so be it. This whole "SJW" situation has grown way out of control. First off the term itself is offensive and second it has turned the gaming community upside down over what?! The same old struggle just in a different sandbox. Like it or not these issues exist And they have as much right to be represented as anyone else. Women have fought for decades to be looked at in the same light as men and yet anytime they jump into aisle dominated field shit hits the fan. It's the same with this and imo is BS. Same applies to all the other issues in this SJW banner. It sickens me that in this day and age we are no more enlightened than we were in the 50's. A++++++++++++
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Post by setokaiba on Jun 25, 2017 20:05:40 GMT
I may get flak for this but so be it. This whole "SJW" situation has grown way out of control. First off the term itself is offensive and second it has turned the gaming community upside down over what?! The same old struggle just in a different sandbox. Like it or not these issues exist And they have as much right to be represented as anyone else. Women have fought for decades to be looked at in the same light as men and yet anytime they jump into aisle dominated field shit hits the fan. It's the same with this and imo is BS. Same applies to all the other issues in this SJW banner. It sickens me that in this day and age we are no more enlightened than we were in the 50's. But SJWs are just as bad as the people they hate. They do nothing but create hatred and resentment under banner of being for "equality". If a woman wants to join something dominated by guys good for her. And she won't get shit because she a woman she get shit the same reason everyone else because people are assholes or she fucked up. I never seen a woman get shit online or in real life just for being a woman.
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Post by griffith82 on Jun 25, 2017 20:10:12 GMT
I may get flak for this but so be it. This whole "SJW" situation has grown way out of control. First off the term itself is offensive and second it has turned the gaming community upside down over what?! The same old struggle just in a different sandbox. Like it or not these issues exist And they have as much right to be represented as anyone else. Women have fought for decades to be looked at in the same light as men and yet anytime they jump into aisle dominated field shit hits the fan. It's the same with this and imo is BS. Same applies to all the other issues in this SJW banner. It sickens me that in this day and age we are no more enlightened than we were in the 50's. But SJWs are just as bad as the people they hate. They do nothing but create hatred and resentment under banner of being for "equality". If a woman wants to join something dominated by guys good for her. And she won't get shit because she a woman she get shit the same reason everyone else because people are assholes or she fucked up. I never seen a woman get shit online or in real life just for being a woman. Oh really? This is so factual false. Have you not heard of swatting? It happened to a female developer. Also they don't preach hate and if you believe that I'm sorry for you.
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I don't like MP!
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Post by warrior on Jun 25, 2017 20:11:29 GMT
Think he saying stop demonizing those you disagree with as scumbags and morons and actually listen to what they have to say.You might learn something. It would help if he actually said anything of substance instead of going on about some vague "agenda" BW has that is somehow linked to the "new left" that is "irresponsible" for undisclosed reasons and has something to do with free speech. Possibly he is referring to the campus speeches being cancelled? Or other kinds of speech "policing"? Otherwise I have no earthly idea wtf is going on in this post. If the irresponsible agenda has something to do with these renewed debates about free speech vs hate speech, and if speech can be violence, then it has nothing to do with MEA including a rando trans character and he should bring that up in the politics forum, where I will never go. If the terrible "agenda" being pushed by BW is including anyone but straight white people in gaming, then we have nothing to discuss, and the only thing I can learn from someone with that perspective is how to avoid them.
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 25, 2017 20:22:38 GMT
A. He's not "criticising free speech", like, at all (where did you even get that?) B. "if you disagree with me you're a bad person" is not an accurate or honest paraphrase of anything he said, and C. you've just gone and proved his point here, that you don't understand how free speech works: freedom of speech does NOT include a freedom from disagreement, criticism, ridicule, mockery, or judgment. Someone telling you that your arguments are crap, your ideas dumb, or your opinions ignorant (or immoral) is by no means violating your free speech. And obviously, you don't get to quack and waddle, then complain when someone calls you a duck. Someone needs to do a course on reading comprehension. A. He did, he said my opinions "are bad", with no arguments at all. Oh and "my opinion", was showing how outside the BSN people disagree with Bioware pushing these agendas in their games. B. I wasn't paraphrasing him, why would you expect me to do it? I said the new left does this all the time. C. I don't even know what you're going on about. Tell me when i said "I'm hurt by your opinion, i demand you stop it". I brought my opinion and argued back, then you came here saying i am whining. Are you just looking for excuses to insult people who disagree with you? Is that passes for debate these days? Let me make this point very clear, there's no point in discussion if you're just going to put words on my mouth, that's the most dishonest and vile thing you can do. This is a PUBLIC forum, if you want an echo chamber for your benefit then go somehere else. The whole point of a forum is disccusion, but people here only seem interested in posting memes, tells others "u disagree? u dumb", and self perpetuate their perception that these "safe zones" are the only place where opinions have any worth. Lol, you are accusing me of a reading comprehension fail, or of putting words in someone's mouth? After the post you had just made? Oh brother, talk about an epic case of "pot meet kettle". You probably should go back and actually read alanc9's post, because you're flat-out wrong here: A. he did not say that your opinions are bad, he said that IF people don't like your ideas then maybe its because your ideas are bad (notice the key words "if" and "maybe" here).. and in any case, even if he had said that your ideas are bad, that is NOT "criticising free speech". Once again, freedom of speech does NOT entail a freedom from criticism, disagreement, or even ridicule. Freedom of speech means that the government cannot censor or punish you for what you say- it doesn't mean that other people can't tell you that you're wrong, or even stupid or immoral. After all, freedom of speech cuts both ways. B. yes, you very explicitly were: your exact quote, to alanc9, was "you even did it yourself, your argument is: "if you disagree with me, you're a bad person" C. we all know what the end game here is with your talk about freedom of speech and moral judgments: you want to be able to express views, without being held responsible for those views or being subject to any criticisms which may apply. But that's not how it works. If you want to waddle and quack, others have every right to call you a duck.
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Post by setokaiba on Jun 25, 2017 20:23:42 GMT
But SJWs are just as bad as the people they hate. They do nothing but create hatred and resentment under banner of being for "equality". If a woman wants to join something dominated by guys good for her. And she won't get shit because she a woman she get shit the same reason everyone else because people are assholes or she fucked up. I never seen a woman get shit online or in real life just for being a woman. Oh really? This is so factual false. Have you not heard of swatting? It happened to a female developer. Also they don't preach hate and if you believe that I'm sorry for you. Oh swatting that thing that has also happened to dudes as well. Sorry but swatting don't only happen to women. Right they don' preach hate they just think anyone who don't agree with their view of the world is a racist, sexist, homophobic Hitler loving Nazis. Treat minority groups like little babies who can't handle anything. They might not preach hate but they do add to it even if they are unaware of it.
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Post by canticleofshartan on Jun 25, 2017 20:26:33 GMT
I may get flak for this but so be it. This whole "SJW" situation has grown way out of control. First off the term itself is offensive and second it has turned the gaming community upside down over what?! The same old struggle just in a different sandbox. Like it or not these issues exist And they have as much right to be represented as anyone else. Women have fought for decades to be looked at in the same light as men and yet anytime they jump into aisle dominated field shit hits the fan. It's the same with this and imo is BS. Same applies to all the other issues in this SJW banner. It sickens me that in this day and age we are no more enlightened than we were in the 50's. But SJWs are just as bad as the people they hate. They do nothing but create hatred and resentment under banner of being for "equality". If a woman wants to join something dominated by guys good for her. And she won't get shit because she a woman she get shit the same reason everyone else because people are assholes or she fucked up. I never seen a woman get shit online or in real life just for being a woman. even if somehow every terrible thing that has been done to women, minorities, and LGBT by intolerant people has ALSO been done by SJWs to their opponents... that STILL would not make SJWs "just as bad as" the intolerant people, because they have targeted people for things they are born with and cannot change, while SJWs target those who decided first that certain types of people are not welcome, and THAT belief of theirs has made them a target. In other words, SJWs target people for what theyve done, while their opponents target people for who they ARE.
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Post by griffith82 on Jun 25, 2017 20:32:22 GMT
But SJWs are just as bad as the people they hate. They do nothing but create hatred and resentment under banner of being for "equality". If a woman wants to join something dominated by guys good for her. And she won't get shit because she a woman she get shit the same reason everyone else because people are assholes or she fucked up. I never seen a woman get shit online or in real life just for being a woman. even if somehow every terrible thing that has been done to women, minorities, and LGBT by intolerant people has ALSO been done by SJWs to their opponents... that STILL would not make SJWs "just as bad as" the intolerant people, because they have targeted people for things they are born with and cannot change, while SJWs target those who decided first that certain types of people are not welcome, and THAT belief of theirs has made them a target. In other words, SJWs target people for what theyve done, while their opponents target people for who they ARE. Exactly.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
GIF Addict
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Posts: 13,331 Likes: 30,906
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 25, 2017 20:32:53 GMT
But SJWs are just as bad as the people they hate. They do nothing but create hatred and resentment under banner of being for "equality". If a woman wants to join something dominated by guys good for her. And she won't get shit because she a woman she get shit the same reason everyone else because people are assholes or she fucked up. I never seen a woman get shit online or in real life just for being a woman. In other words, SJWs target people for what theyve done, while their opponents target people for who they ARE. No, their opponents usually attack SJW's for their hypocrisy. But to keep this on-topic. I do see small bits of SJW elements in some Bioware games, but it's not problematic for my gaming experience.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 25, 2017 20:33:13 GMT
But SJWs are just as bad as the people they hate. They do nothing but create hatred and resentment under banner of being for "equality". If a woman wants to join something dominated by guys good for her. And she won't get shit because she a woman she get shit the same reason everyone else because people are assholes or she fucked up. I never seen a woman get shit online or in real life just for being a woman. even if somehow every terrible thing that has been done to women, minorities, and LGBT by intolerant people has ALSO been done by SJWs to their opponents... that STILL would not make SJWs "just as bad as" the intolerant people, because they have targeted people for things they are born with and cannot change, while SJWs target those who decided first that certain types of people are not welcome, and THAT belief of theirs has made them a target. In other words, SJWs target people for what theyve done, while their opponents target people for who they ARE. To be honest I've seen the complete opposite. Those who stand for social justice often mock, demean and humiliate those who don't meet their abitrary standards.
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Post by setokaiba on Jun 25, 2017 20:41:32 GMT
In other words, SJWs target people for what theyve done, while their opponents target people for who they ARE. No, their opponents usually attack SJW's for their hypocrisy. But to keep this on-topic. I do see small bits of SJW elements in some Bioware games, but it's not problematic for my gaming experience. This, they will get upset about Lara Croft or Catwoman being sexy but they don't have a problem with Scott Ryder and Nathan Drake
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 25, 2017 20:49:42 GMT
even if somehow every terrible thing that has been done to women, minorities, and LGBT by intolerant people has ALSO been done by SJWs to their opponents... that STILL would not make SJWs "just as bad as" the intolerant people, because they have targeted people for things they are born with and cannot change, while SJWs target those who decided first that certain types of people are not welcome, and THAT belief of theirs has made them a target. In other words, SJWs target people for what theyve done, while their opponents target people for who they ARE. To be honest I've seen the complete opposite. Those who stand for social justice often mock, demean and humiliate those who don't meet their abitrary standards. So in other words, they think people should be criticized or judged for what they say or do, and not for (actually) arbitrary reasons like their race, sexual orientation, gender, socioeconomic status, etc.? Darn those SJWs and their crazy ideas!
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N7
GIF Addict
Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 13,331 Likes: 30,906
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Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 25, 2017 20:53:41 GMT
To be honest I've seen the complete opposite. Those who stand for social justice often mock, demean and humiliate those who don't meet their abitrary standards. So in other words, they think people should be criticized or judged for what they say or do, and not for (actually) arbitrary reasons like their race, sexual orientation, gender, socioeconomic status, etc.? Darn those SJWs and their crazy ideas! You've made your wish. Now blow out the candles.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Jun 25, 2017 20:55:50 GMT
As far as the bigger picture goes I think extremists on both sides are to blame for this stupid identity politics culture war. I think most of us were content with them yelling at each other on the streets or on their college campuses as long as they kept sane people out of it but now it has spilled into other aspects of our lives and paranoid people are seeing conspiracies against them every where. I never even paid attention to any of this crap until a few years ago when people were complaining about DAI before it even came out and they kept bringing up "SJWs" and I was like dude this was features video about the combat systems in the game. I think we live in a day and age where just by existing that is enough for some people to accuse you of making a political statement because of whatever demographic you belong to. Just by your own demographic background (age, gender, race, and whatever you do in the bedroom) is enough for some people to think you are a part of conspiracy against them even if you are just trying to order lunch.
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Post by sageoflife on Jun 25, 2017 21:06:40 GMT
I've seen the term thrown around so much that I've become convinced that "SJWs" don't actually exist and are just the latest boogeyman a certain breed of trogs throw out either so they can look like the victimized party when they see women and minorities being treated in a positive manner, as seen with both Inquisition and Andromeda, or just so they can shut down any criticism directed towards them. I've never seen the term used in the "correct" manner. Oh they do and they're pretty scary. Browse through Neogaf and you'll see a bunch of them. But the problem is that some people use the "SJW" term for everyone. Sometimes just for the fact that you're not racist someone calls you a SJW. The thing is, I've never seen the term used the correct way. And considering I've seen people called "SJWs" for objecting to a romance novel portraying a concentration camp inmate falling in love with a Nazi commandant and converting to Christianity, I remain skeptical.
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 25, 2017 21:07:33 GMT
In other words, SJWs target people for what theyve done, while their opponents target people for who they ARE. their opponents usually attack SJW's for their hypocrisy. Yep, either as willful misrepresentation, or a simple failure to understand the discussion on the most basic level. The "SJWs are hypocrites" bit is premised on ignoring the distinction mentioned already, i.e. between judging/criticizing someone based on what they do or what they say, and judging/criticizing someone based on who they are (their race, sex/gender, sexual orientation, etc.)
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Post by sageoflife on Jun 25, 2017 21:14:41 GMT
I may get flak for this but so be it. This whole "SJW" situation has grown way out of control. First off the term itself is offensive and second it has turned the gaming community upside down over what?! The same old struggle just in a different sandbox. Like it or not these issues exist And they have as much right to be represented as anyone else. Women have fought for decades to be looked at in the same light as men and yet anytime they jump into aisle dominated field shit hits the fan. It's the same with this and imo is BS. Same applies to all the other issues in this SJW banner. It sickens me that in this day and age we are no more enlightened than we were in the 50's. But SJWs are just as bad as the people they hate. They do nothing but create hatred and resentment under banner of being for "equality". If a woman wants to join something dominated by guys good for her. And she won't get shit because she a woman she get shit the same reason everyone else because people are assholes or she fucked up. I never seen a woman get shit online or in real life just for being a woman. Uh, what? Even if I accept for the sake of the argument that "SJWs" are real, have you seen the hate crime statistics in the developed world? Unless you can point to people actually being murdered because of "SJWs", the two sides really are not equal.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
GIF Addict
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Posts: 13,331 Likes: 30,906
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Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 25, 2017 21:16:01 GMT
their opponents usually attack SJW's for their hypocrisy. Yep, either as willful misrepresentation, or a simple failure to understand the discussion on the most basic level. The "SJWs are hypocrites" bit is premised on ignoring the distinction mentioned already, i.e. between judging/criticizing someone based on what they do or what they say, and judging/criticizing someone based on who they are (their race, sex/gender, sexual orientation, etc.) You're demonstrating a simple failure to understand or willful misrepresentation, the "SJW's are usually opposed by people because SJW's are hypocrites" is premised on disagreeing (not ignoring, those are two different things) with the distinction mentioned already.
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Post by canticleofshartan on Jun 25, 2017 21:24:35 GMT
even if somehow every terrible thing that has been done to women, minorities, and LGBT by intolerant people has ALSO been done by SJWs to their opponents... that STILL would not make SJWs "just as bad as" the intolerant people, because they have targeted people for things they are born with and cannot change, while SJWs target those who decided first that certain types of people are not welcome, and THAT belief of theirs has made them a target. In other words, SJWs target people for what theyve done, while their opponents target people for who they ARE. To be honest I've seen the complete opposite. Those who stand for social justice often mock, demean and humiliate those who don't meet their abitrary standards. their standards may be "arbitrary" sometimes but it always has to do with someone's behavior or opinions. Stuff that the target has decided on, and that they might change if theyre called out on it. Whereas nobody can stop being black or gay just because intolerant people (the stated enemies of the SJWs) mock, demean, and humiliate them, and it is not a black or gay persons choice to be who they are. So that would make the people the SJWs try to find and fight worse than the SJW themselves, even if as the person i quoted seems to think, their methods and extremism were equivalent.
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 25, 2017 21:49:10 GMT
Yep, either as willful misrepresentation, or a simple failure to understand the discussion on the most basic level. The "SJWs are hypocrites" bit is premised on ignoring the distinction mentioned already, i.e. between judging/criticizing someone based on what they do or what they say, and judging/criticizing someone based on who they are (their race, sex/gender, sexual orientation, etc.) You're demonstrating a simple failure to understand or willful misrepresentation, the "SJW's are usually opposed by people because SJW's are hypocrites" is premised on disagreeing (not ignoring, those are two different things) with the distinction mentioned already. Nah, but you're right that I did leave out the other possibility, i.e. that they're not intentionally ignoring it, but simply failing to grasp the distinction (despite it being incredibly straightforward). But since it cannot credibly be held that words or actions are identical to race/gender/sexual orientation (no more than it can be held that apples are identical to refrigerators), "disagreeing" with the distinction is not in it.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
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Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
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almostfaceman
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 25, 2017 21:57:21 GMT
You're demonstrating a simple failure to understand or willful misrepresentation, the "SJW's are usually opposed by people because SJW's are hypocrites" is premised on disagreeing (not ignoring, those are two different things) with the distinction mentioned already. Nah, but you're right that I did leave out the other possibility, i.e. that they're not intentionally ignoring it, but simply failing to grasp the distinction (despite it being incredibly straightforward). But since it cannot credibly be held that words or actions are identical to race/gender/sexual orientation (no more than it can be held that apples are identical to refrigerators), "disagreeing" with the distinction is not in it. Nobody said that words or actions are identical to race/gender/sexual orientation. That's a strawman argument, at least where I enter into the discussion. What I said was that folks usually oppose SJW's because SJW's are hypocrites. For example, they will often be racist or sexist in the pursuit to protect "insert quota race or sex here."
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Tuldabar
XBL Gamertag: Shadow Quickpaw
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quickpaw
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Tuldabar
Shadow Quickpaw
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Post by Quickpaw on Jun 25, 2017 22:03:45 GMT
I'm going to say something that might sound like the opposite of what I actually mean: Including the LGBT/non-heteronormative/not marketed towards straight white teens and young men IS forced.
But it's forced in the same way African American inclusion was "forced" on television and comics. In the same way pretty much any minority group has been "forced" on any type of media (usually American media) ever. Because if you don't "force" it, IT NEVER HAPPENS. And the marginalized groups remain voiceless and powerless. So no. I have no problem with the "forcing" (actually just normal inclusion) of transgender characters, or "non-attractive female models," or nonconforming people in the games I play, or movies I watch, or books I read. Even if I'm a heteronormative guy myself, I like diversity. It's realistic. The quality of said characters is another matter, I'll grant, but the same was true of any push for inclusion and equality of representation in media.
Plus this is a video game, it's REALLY HARD to have a character be understood by the player as transgender without stating it outright. I personally have NEVER gotten the option to ask Abrams about this, in any version or patch.
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q5tyhj
deadhead chemistry
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q5tyhj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
q5tyhj
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 25, 2017 22:13:42 GMT
Nah, but you're right that I did leave out the other possibility, i.e. that they're not intentionally ignoring it, but simply failing to grasp the distinction (despite it being incredibly straightforward). But since it cannot credibly be held that words or actions are identical to race/gender/sexual orientation (no more than it can be held that apples are identical to refrigerators), "disagreeing" with the distinction is not in it. Nobody said that words or actions are identical to race/gender/sexual orientation. That's a strawman argument, at least where I enter into the discussion. L2English issues confirmed. If you "disagree" with a distinction, then you do not agree that the things are distinct: you think they are the same (not distinct=same). If you admit (the entirely trivial fact) that words and actions aren't the same as race, sex, or sexual orientation, then you do not disagree with the distinction. And without neglecting this simple distinction, the "SJWs are hypocrites" bit falls apart (not that it was especially credible to begin with).
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