Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 25, 2017 22:16:00 GMT
Nobody said that words or actions are identical to race/gender/sexual orientation. That's a strawman argument, at least where I enter into the discussion. L2English issues confirmed. If you "disagree" with a distinction, then you do not agree that the things are distinct: you think they are the same (not distinct=same). If you admit (the entirely trivial fact) that words and actions aren't the same as race, sex, or sexual orientation, then you do not disagree with the distinction. And without neglecting this simple distinction, the "SJWs are hypocrites" bit falls apart (not that it was especially credible to begin with). Now you're talking to someone else, because you're not speaking to the argument I have made.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 22:37:35 GMT
The game isnt any type of propaganda You hear lots of stupid arguments online, and most containing politics are worth ignoring, all it means is the person tried so hard to find an enemy that they well... convinced themselves theyd found one Ive seen lots of things, like the holding hands/running scene in The Force Awakens being described as feminism, with no thought about how Rey knew where she was going, and that you see her leading the way immediately after as they try and escape. Ive played through most BioWare games, including DAI and MEA.. and there are times when both sides of stupid stuff like this (well, the whole propaganda side) makes me uncomfortable in the world generally (that is, the real world)... the games dont have any kind of propaganda in... are they inclusive??? Sure, but its just to give the player options, and the two arent the same thing There are just people in the world of a variety of different opinions who just want to find enemies everywhere and are very paranoid... good for them I guess, meanwhile ill be happy enjoying things and fangirling and not spending my life making up imaginary enemies
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Post by canticleofshartan on Jun 25, 2017 22:39:18 GMT
L2English issues confirmed. If you "disagree" with a distinction, then you do not agree that the things are distinct: you think they are the same (not distinct=same). If you admit (the entirely trivial fact) that words and actions aren't the same as race, sex, or sexual orientation, then you do not disagree with the distinction. And without neglecting this simple distinction, the "SJWs are hypocrites" bit falls apart (not that it was especially credible to begin with). Now you're talking to someone else, because you're not speaking to the argument I have made. yeah Ithink there was a misunderstanding here. I think q5tyhj was working under the impression that you were saying "SJWs are hypocrites" relating to the conversation most people in the thread were having at the time, but you were actually just saying "SJWsare hypocrites in GENERAL", and that this is the problem people have with them, is that correct?
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 25, 2017 22:53:43 GMT
L2English issues confirmed. If you "disagree" with a distinction, then you do not agree that the things are distinct: you think they are the same (not distinct=same). If you admit (the entirely trivial fact) that words and actions aren't the same as race, sex, or sexual orientation, then you do not disagree with the distinction. And without neglecting this simple distinction, the "SJWs are hypocrites" bit falls apart (not that it was especially credible to begin with). Now you're talking to someone else, because you're not speaking to the argument I have made. Yeah that makes sense, I'm sure someone else posted the comment by Faceman that I had quoted and responded directly to there.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
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Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 25, 2017 23:00:22 GMT
Now you're talking to someone else, because you're not speaking to the argument I have made. Yeah that makes sense, I'm sure someone else posted the comment by Faceman that I had quoted and responded directly to there. That was a polite way of saying your argument makes no sense.
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warrior
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Post by warrior on Jun 25, 2017 23:20:54 GMT
Nah, but you're right that I did leave out the other possibility, i.e. that they're not intentionally ignoring it, but simply failing to grasp the distinction (despite it being incredibly straightforward). But since it cannot credibly be held that words or actions are identical to race/gender/sexual orientation (no more than it can be held that apples are identical to refrigerators), "disagreeing" with the distinction is not in it. Nobody said that words or actions are identical to race/gender/sexual orientation. That's a strawman argument, at least where I enter into the discussion. What I said was that folks usually oppose SJW's because SJW's are hypocrites. For example, they will often be racist or sexist in the pursuit to protect "insert quota race or sex here." Yeah but tokenization and quota filing isn't really what anyone wants. That's a white liberal m.o. that feels just as (almost as?) racist/misogynist/whatever as total exclusion. Similarly, there is "knighting" (like white knighting) in these discussions but there are also plenty of people calling for inclusion who belong to the groups in question, speaking for themselves. I think people want thoughtful representation, which is why some of BW's attempts in this game annoyed some on both sides of the divide, because they felt like afterthoughts to check off boxes.
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Post by zaeedisking on Jun 25, 2017 23:28:01 GMT
I think most would agree that we post fantastic meme's here. There is no argument about that.
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 25, 2017 23:31:29 GMT
Yeah that makes sense, I'm sure someone else posted the comment by Faceman that I had quoted and responded directly to there. That was a polite way of saying your argument makes no sense. As it was straightforward to the point of triviality, that's not especially plausible either. If you want to be done with a conversation, you can just say so, or just stop participating- no need to make up disingenuous excuses.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 25, 2017 23:32:32 GMT
That was a polite way of saying your argument makes no sense. As it was straightforward to the point of triviality, that's not credible either. If you want to be done with a conversation, you can just say so, or just stop participating- no need to make up disingenuous excuses. OOoo, assumptions, yummy!
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 25, 2017 23:34:51 GMT
As it was straightforward to the point of triviality, that's not credible either. If you want to be done with a conversation, you can just say so, or just stop participating- no need to make up disingenuous excuses. OOoo, assumptions, yummy! Conclusions, you mean.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 25, 2017 23:35:12 GMT
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 25, 2017 23:35:32 GMT
OOoo, assumptions, yummy! Conclusions, you mean. Assumptive conclusions, yes.
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 25, 2017 23:41:17 GMT
Assumptive conclusions, yes. And now corroborated conclusions.
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Post by griffith82 on Jun 25, 2017 23:42:44 GMT
Oh lord. The hypocrisy in that article is strong. Edit: why'd you change your handle?
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 25, 2017 23:44:45 GMT
Assumptive conclusions, yes. And now corroborated conclusions. If you're implying you agree with me that you were making assumptions, yes.
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Post by kino on Jun 25, 2017 23:45:03 GMT
lol! That sounds about right, I think.
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Post by suikoden on Jun 25, 2017 23:46:02 GMT
Oh lord. The hypocrisy in that article is strong. Edit: why'd you change your handle? It's satire...
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Post by warrior on Jun 25, 2017 23:50:03 GMT
No, their opponents usually attack SJW's for their hypocrisy. But to keep this on-topic. I do see small bits of SJW elements in some Bioware games, but it's not problematic for my gaming experience. This, they will get upset about Lara Croft or Catwoman being sexy but they don't have a problem with Scott Ryder and Nathan Drake Not every woman agrees about what is offensive. I don't really care about there being sexy fem characters -- I usually make them to be sexy (whatever I consider sexy, anyway) bc we are kind of roleplaying, right? I do get kind of annoyed when they're fighting hordes in heels, like in TW3. anyway, I hate how Scott looks as much as so many of you seem to hate Sara. He looks like a J Crew model or something, very boring and generic, would not bang. MaleShep was way, way, wayyyyy sexier. The jawline, for one. But I don't think there was a lot of fuss about the Tomb Raider prequels? was there? I may have missed it... in 1996 when the original came out there just weren't as many games offering a fem PC and so Lara got a lot more scrutiny from feminists (esp her tiny tiny Barbie waist). By now we have had more games that have a fem PC or the opportunity to play one and not all of them are hyper-sexualized. Catwoman also feels like a really old reference. LOL. They did update Lara a little bit to look like a real person. I think in the new games she's really hot but maybe others disagreed.
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Post by warrior on Jun 25, 2017 23:57:49 GMT
It really is a great game.
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Post by warrior on Jun 26, 2017 0:05:38 GMT
Oh they do and they're pretty scary. Browse through Neogaf and you'll see a bunch of them. But the problem is that some people use the "SJW" term for everyone. Sometimes just for the fact that you're not racist someone calls you a SJW. The thing is, I've never seen the term used the correct way. And considering I've seen people called "SJWs" for objecting to a romance novel portraying a concentration camp inmate falling in love with a Nazi commandant and converting to Christianity, I remain skeptical. LMAO, that is so deeply fucked. What novel is that?
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Post by sageoflife on Jun 26, 2017 0:12:18 GMT
The thing is, I've never seen the term used the correct way. And considering I've seen people called "SJWs" for objecting to a romance novel portraying a concentration camp inmate falling in love with a Nazi commandant and converting to Christianity, I remain skeptical. LMAO, that is so deeply fucked. What novel is that? For Such A Time, by Kate Breslin. And yeah, I actually saw people say with no irony that objecting to the idea means that you're an "SJW" who wants to police people's thoughts. And yet people wonder why I'm skeptical about the existence of "SJWs".
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Post by shechinah on Jun 26, 2017 0:18:11 GMT
The thing is, I've never seen the term used the correct way. And considering I've seen people called "SJWs" for objecting to a romance novel portraying a concentration camp inmate falling in love with a Nazi commandant and converting to Christianity, I remain skeptical. LMAO, that is so deeply fucked. What novel is that? For Such a Time by Kate Breslin. Here's a joint discussion of the book that goes into the good and the bad including the fact that the publisher used an actual photograph of jews at Auschwitz as a part of the romance novel cover: dearauthor.com/features/letters-of-opinion/joint-discussion-time-kate-breslin/Note: it's not just about the premise of the book, it's also about how that premise is written.
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Post by Steelcan on Jun 26, 2017 0:38:09 GMT
Of all the criticisms I can and do level at Andromeda, being "SJW" is not one of them
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Post by kaind on Jun 26, 2017 0:55:11 GMT
It's not about some bright example that stands out, it's just the impression I got after completing the game. It's how the game feels, its atmosphere, and I can tell that the game was made by SJW's. It's how all the characters including Ryder talk, how they think, how they act, their mentality, in every scene from the beginning of the game till the end. I'm really curious to hear more about this, and for some examples, because I have no idea what you mean. I found MEA writing weak but don't see how it relates to SJW--explain? It's not easy to pick out specific examples. The good and evil in this game are very clearly defined, you cannot offend anyone and no one offends you personally, people challenge authority but don't challenge ideas, the relationship in the crew cannot be professional, it is friendly and personal by default, every individual that talks about anything remotely emotionally charged takes extra steps to be super careful, considerate and accepting. I guess one example that I really remember as a wtf moment was when I just recruited Peebee and wanted to talk to her. I selected something neutral as a conversation starter and it ended up being something like: ''I was hoping you would be willing to open up more.'' And that got me really confused as to why is my default convo starter with a new squadmate, that I know nothing about yet, trying to get to know them as a person on deeper level and only if they don't mind. Something like that. The feeling I got from this game is akin to a feeling of mild cultural shock.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 26, 2017 1:02:36 GMT
I'll leave the mockery to others, and just point out that you've missed how the whole freedom-of-speech thing works. Everybody gets to express their ideas, sure, but that doesn't mean that the ideas automatically are respected. Some ideas are stupid. Some ideas are evil. Some are both. If people don't like your ideas, maybe it's because they're bad ideas. Feel free to post mockery gifs, the mods here love them, and you won't need to elaborate any argument! Making your interlocutor look bad using bright coloured pictures, a feat of this age. Makes you feel good, right? Honestly, I'm too lazy for that approach. I'm not sure how these guys come up with those GIFs so fast. Do they keep libraries on hand? Although that's actually the appropriate response to your post,since you didn't post any substance beyond a vague suggestion that somebody's being persecuted for something. Sonething so content-free can't really be debated. We don't have a disagreement here, as far as I can see. The phrase "marketplace of ideas" is quite apt. The value of an idea, like the value of everything else, is whatever the market tells you that the value is. You didn't actually manage to get to a substantive argument there. If you don't want to come across as, say, a garden-variety homophobe, you need to be clearer about what your position is and why you're holding it.
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