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Post by dillk on Jul 7, 2017 19:03:32 GMT
The thread is long so I can't say I check all, but I failed quote any post about the elements let open at end of MEA. I remind various points: - There's a big interrogation mark about the Andromeda project itself, its funding source, what's and who's behind, who's the benefactor, why the leader of Andromeda project get killed. - Even Ryder family story line isn't concluded as the mother aspect is still open. - The remnant aspect and their enemy (who's behind the Scourge) is a story thread not concluded at all. - The Kett threaten is another story thread fully open and not concluded. - The ark lost that contact at end and warn to not search them, is opening two story threads, the ark itself and a mysterious new threaten, why they don't want help. - The AI itself is a potential open story element, how this will evolve. For me there's a lot of element for a close follow up of MEA. And it would make no sense to make a sequel 100 years later. So for sure Ryder can't mark as much then Shepard and it seems many players feel Ryder is trash-able. But for me Shepard is no way more interesting at end of ME1. I do find Shepard more interesting in ME1 for several reasons, some personal and some story/dialogue implementation, but I do think a lot of people are pitting trilogy Shepard against Ryder instead of ME1 Shepard against Ryder, which isn't a fair fight. If a sequel happens and they decide to move forward with Ryder, I think they really need to figure out how to complicate the character arc and make the character more complex in general. I feel like that was in some ways what the death/Laz project (which I LOVE and will not suffer fools who hated this decision!) was meant to do for ME1 Shepard, who was pretty generic as a military hero/savior in ME1 -- in ME2 he or she suddenly went from that to cyborgian undead built by and working for the terrorist org that ends up being a main antagonist in ME3. He or she went from universally beloved to distrusted by many, and then "disgraced' after the events of Arrival, and throughout ME2 and 3 is given opportunities to express more negative emotions than in ME1. Ryder needs some complication of his or her heroism (universally celebrated at the end of MEA) and some big impetus for a personal struggle or shift in perspective (like the ME2 death, but not that obviously), because for me he or she is just plain too happy and....basic...to be a remotely compelling protagonist (yet). But as you wrote yourself this "complexity" really starts get a relief only with ME1+2 perspective, and even more with full trilogy perspective. So again it's comparing with trilogy not with ME1. There's the black & white approach, that never worked that well for me, but it means more for many players. You probably make a point here, but I don't think it would have been wise to continue on a black&white approach. I haven't replayed enough MEA to have a good perspective on that, but ok the 4 traits approach seems often lacking of contrast. I don't know, for me it looks more like two half points, not a so huge difference. But my perspective is changed because overall the b&w approach never work that well for me. Then there's the story elements, and I don't see ME1 compete with MEA. I do believe the Benefactor + AI evolution + The threat to avoid + Remnant creators and their enemy + The explorer aspect (opposed to a known galactic civilization) have a lot more potential than story threads open at end of ME1. So for pure character point of view, perhaps a bit, as a whole i don't agree. But for sure, preferences and subjectivity play a role.
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Post by dillk on Jul 7, 2017 19:08:46 GMT
When playing only ME1? I don't remind much choices with consequences that aren't immediate local consequence. But my point of view could be flawed because the black and white approach never worked that well for me. Here a probably incomplete list for MEA: orcz.com/Mass_Effect_Andromeda:_Choices_and_ConsequencesI don't see ME1 alone doing significantly better. ME is more interesting on that aspect only from the full trilogy perspective. To me the choices in the trilogy were largely interesting and exciting with a sense of urgency - in Andromeda it's more like being a bean counter where choices are like checking off boxes - again, boiling down to the weak/boring writing. Urgency? That's always fake in RPG because the game has to adapt to very different paces coming from players, and anyway rush don't match well to RPG. I feel you are rude with the MEA writing, but it's not easy argue about that. Just one point, for me nothing in full ME trilogy matches the family line smash power (Benefactor, Murder, Mother).
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Post by suikoden on Jul 7, 2017 19:11:07 GMT
To me the choices in the trilogy were largely interesting and exciting with a sense of urgency - in Andromeda it's more like being a bean counter where choices are like checking off boxes - again, boiling down to the weak/boring writing. Urgency? That's always fake in RPG because the game has to adapt to very different paces coming from players, and anyway rush don't match well to RPG. I feel you are rude with the MEA writing, but it's not easy argue about that. Just one point, for me nothing in full ME trilogy matches the family line smash power (Benefactor, Murder, Mother). I guess for me a sense of urgency doesn't gel with an open world of Andromeda's styling. Everyone is far too happy go lucky in their present circumstances - it doesn't work for me at all.
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Post by warrior on Jul 7, 2017 19:31:59 GMT
I do find Shepard more interesting in ME1 for several reasons, some personal and some story/dialogue implementation, but I do think a lot of people are pitting trilogy Shepard against Ryder instead of ME1 Shepard against Ryder, which isn't a fair fight. If a sequel happens and they decide to move forward with Ryder, I think they really need to figure out how to complicate the character arc and make the character more complex in general. I feel like that was in some ways what the death/Laz project (which I LOVE and will not suffer fools who hated this decision!) was meant to do for ME1 Shepard, who was pretty generic as a military hero/savior in ME1 -- in ME2 he or she suddenly went from that to cyborgian undead built by and working for the terrorist org that ends up being a main antagonist in ME3. He or she went from universally beloved to distrusted by many, and then "disgraced' after the events of Arrival, and throughout ME2 and 3 is given opportunities to express more negative emotions than in ME1. Ryder needs some complication of his or her heroism (universally celebrated at the end of MEA) and some big impetus for a personal struggle or shift in perspective (like the ME2 death, but not that obviously), because for me he or she is just plain too happy and....basic...to be a remotely compelling protagonist (yet). But as you wrote yourself this "complexity" really starts get a relief only with ME1+2 perspective, and even more with full trilogy perspective. So again it's comparing with trilogy not with ME1. There's the black & white approach, that never worked that well for me, but it means more for many players. You probably make a point here, but I don't think it would have been wise to continue on a black&white approach. I haven't replayed enough MEA to have a good perspective on that, but ok the 4 traits approach seems often lacking of contrast. I don't know, for me it looks more like two half points, not a so huge difference. But my perspective is changed because overall the b&w approach never work that well for me. Then there's the story elements, and I don't see ME1 compete with MEA. I do believe the Benefactor + AI evolution + The threat to avoid + Remnant creators and their enemy + The explorer aspect (opposed to a known galactic civilization) have a lot more potential than story threads open at end of ME1. So for pure character point of view, perhaps a bit, as a whole i don't agree. But for sure, preferences and subjectivity play a role. Well, as I also said, I do think Shep is more complex/interesting in ME1 than Ryder -- that's my comparison. What follows is not a comparison, but my hopes as they move forward to the future here (by talking about where they eventually took ME2 and ME3), saying that if this character is ever going to be one I can be excited to play, then they need to follow a similar approach, because at this point I find her a little boring, though I did come to like her more toward the end. Lots of the casual lines were good. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I love the black and white approach to personailty. Black and white approach wasn't my favorite, either, and I've since used Gibbed to allow all dialogue options to be open. But I do want more of a range. I agree with those who say that Ryder has very little range in her behavior, emotional responses, agreements/disagreements -- just shades of the same. Sometimes you want to be bad, rude, dismissive... even just sad, upset... maybe you want to tell someone other than the Kett to fuck off. I didn't feel the game really gave me those options as much as I would like, so yeah I guess "lacking of contrast" is pretty much why I didn't feel I could properly develop Ryder into the kind of character I prefer to play. So I'd honestly rather have Para/Ren than this, even if I agree that Para, Neut, Ren was an imperfect system. But ideally we meet somewhere in the middle of both systems. That said, Paragon Shep options were not always nice. She yelled at people a lot, told people off. I think Paragon translated mostly as "role model," or something like that-- as an idealist who wants to be a good person, believes people are inherently good and saving innocent lives is the primary goal -- not as "nice or neutral to almost everyone she meets." But yeah, a lot of it is just about personal preference for certain types of characters and storytelling.
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Post by outlaw1109 on Jul 7, 2017 19:39:04 GMT
It makes less sense that Sovereign used Saren to begin with. He didn't need him to serve any purpose a Geth couldn't fulfil. And the Geth would likely be easier to control. But we needed an enemy with subjective morality, I guess. And a face and voice. Sovereign did need organics to run the Noveria and Feros parts of the operation, though. Just going from Sovereign's perspective here, but it didn't need Feros or Noveria to activate the Citadel relay. It needed a being capable of flipping the switch; ala geth. Given how Sovereign just kind of soars to the Citadel tower and latches on; he could probably just indoctrinate the council with his presence and have them do it. The beacons only served as exposition dumps...which Sovereign didn't need. Indeed, from the villain's perspective, ME 1 has a pretty silly plot.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2017 20:08:44 GMT
And a face and voice. Sovereign did need organics to run the Noveria and Feros parts of the operation, though. Just going from Sovereign's perspective here, but it didn't need Feros or Noveria to activate the Citadel relay. It needed a being capable of flipping the switch; ala geth. Given how Sovereign just kind of soars to the Citadel tower and latches on; he could probably just indoctrinate the council with his presence and have them do it. The beacons only served as exposition dumps...which Sovereign didn't need. Indeed, from the villain's perspective, ME 1 has a pretty silly plot. Ok, then tell me how you would write this? First no villains in any sci fi heck most movies and tv used sound logic, he'll most real criminals don't. In a setting like this it has to allow for good gameplay and plot direction. The whole point of the conduit, Feros and Noviera was for thus. First Sovereign could not bypass the Prothean's sabotage and needed the back door. Second the point of Feros and Noveria was to search for said door. IMO ME1's main saving grace is the plot.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 7, 2017 21:02:32 GMT
To me the choices in the trilogy were largely interesting and exciting with a sense of urgency - in Andromeda it's more like being a bean counter where choices are like checking off boxes - again, boiling down to the weak/boring writing. Urgency? That's always fake in RPG because the game has to adapt to very different paces coming from players, and anyway rush don't match well to RPG. I feel you are rude with the MEA writing, but it's not easy argue about that. Just one point, for me nothing in full ME trilogy matches the family line smash power (Benefactor, Murder, Mother).Can someone tell me what the italed is referring to? You could do urgency in an RPG; it happens in PnP all the time. Player control of pacing in CRPGs is something of a historical accident. However, we're kind of stuck with the CRPG fans we have, so it's not likely that we're ever going to see real urgency in a mainstream project. This battle was lost when the Fallout 1 timer had to be nerfed because players couldn't handle it.
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Post by vonuber on Jul 7, 2017 21:10:29 GMT
To me the choices in the trilogy were largely interesting and exciting with a sense of urgency - in Andromeda it's more like being a bean counter where choices are like checking off boxes - again, boiling down to the weak/boring writing. How do you know? You've only done the ten hour trial at release. You should preface every single one of your posts with that. Or put it in your signature.
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Post by warrior on Jul 7, 2017 21:16:00 GMT
Urgency? That's always fake in RPG because the game has to adapt to very different paces coming from players, and anyway rush don't match well to RPG. I feel you are rude with the MEA writing, but it's not easy argue about that. Just one point, for me nothing in full ME trilogy matches the family line smash power (Benefactor, Murder, Mother).Can someone tell me what the italed is referring to? I think he means that he finds Alec's backstory and how it relates to Jien's murder a bigger draw plotwise than anything in the OT. Which is crazy to me, but w/e.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 7, 2017 21:21:01 GMT
And a face and voice. Sovereign did need organics to run the Noveria and Feros parts of the operation, though. Just going from Sovereign's perspective here, but it didn't need Feros or Noveria to activate the Citadel relay. It needed a being capable of flipping the switch; ala geth. Given how Sovereign just kind of soars to the Citadel tower and latches on; he could probably just indoctrinate the council with his presence and have them do it. The beacons only served as exposition dumps...which Sovereign didn't need. Indeed, from the villain's perspective, ME 1 has a pretty silly plot. Right; the general problem with ME1 is that it only makes sense as long as the player never thinks about what the enemies are thinking or planning. It works -- in the sense that ME1 doesn't tend to get called on its b.s. as often as the other games do-- because by the time the player gets enough information to think about this stuff, there's other stuff to think about. By the time you know what the Conduit is, Saren's already got it and why he needed it isn't relevant to Shepard's situation anymore. Same thing for Tali's voice recording; by the time you an figure out that the time sequence is impossible, the recording is about to become irrelevant because Saren's about to be exposed and the recording will have fulfilled its function. (I was assuming that Sovereign was already being forced to go to plan B -- getting an operative into the Citadel Tower without being able to use Saren, Benezia et al. because they're all compromised. Of course, the high-percentage move there is still to Indoctrinate more people rather than a brute-force assault.)
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Post by suikoden on Jul 7, 2017 21:23:10 GMT
To me the choices in the trilogy were largely interesting and exciting with a sense of urgency - in Andromeda it's more like being a bean counter where choices are like checking off boxes - again, boiling down to the weak/boring writing. How do you know? You've only done the ten hour trial at release. You should preface every single one of your posts with that. Or put it in your signature. This is a tired argument - but if a game can't make me interested in ten hours I'm not going to spend 100 on it. I've played ten hours, then watched the cut scenes and ending - it's pretty generic and boring. There's no more room in my signature.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 7, 2017 21:46:28 GMT
Honestly if you played ten hours of the trilogy I can't think of a single major choice that Shepard made within the first ten hours. Whether or not to kill Fist/ that one racist dude apart of the Tenth Street reds leap to mind. But I know there are choices of at least that callibre within the first ten hours too...
Though I suppose part of the problem is games as open as ME 1 and MEA gives you some leeway in the order you do certain quests.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 7, 2017 22:04:31 GMT
Just going from Sovereign's perspective here, but it didn't need Feros or Noveria to activate the Citadel relay. It needed a being capable of flipping the switch; ala geth. Given how Sovereign just kind of soars to the Citadel tower and latches on; he could probably just indoctrinate the council with his presence and have them do it. The beacons only served as exposition dumps...which Sovereign didn't need. Indeed, from the villain's perspective, ME 1 has a pretty silly plot. Ok, then tell me how you would write this? First no villains in any sci fi heck most movies and tv used sound logic, he'll most real criminals don't. In a setting like this it has to allow for good gameplay and plot direction. The whole point of the conduit, Feros and Noviera was for thus. First Sovereign could not bypass the Prothean's sabotage and needed the back door. Second the point of Feros and Noveria was to search for said door. IMO ME1's main saving grace is the plot. I'll play. Here's a minimalist version which preserves most of the structure of the existing game -- I'm personally with the folks who wish that Saren being the enemy had been a late reveal rather than done in the prologue, so this is just a patch job rather than how I'd write the game. There's a common bit of fanwankery that Saren didn't know what the Conduit was until he found the Eden Prime beacon, which kind of works if we ignore Saren and Benezia's dialogue. This requires Sovereign to have been really wrong about what was going on on the Citadel -- looking for some sort of high-tech undetectable suppression field shutting down the relay rather than checking to see if something was wrong on the Citadel itself. This is OK, though-- technologically-superior beings thinking that they can only be defeated by superior tech is a good trope. What we need are two different Saren and Benezia conversations.Convo #1 happens right after Eden Prime. Saren and Benezia are a little annoyed, but also a little amused. Turns out that their whole theory has been wrong and going after the Conduit is a waste of time. It doesn't matter because they haven't lost anything yet. All they need to do is mobiliza their forces and seize the Council Chamber; obviously, they won't mention it by name at this point. Convo#2 happens after Saren and Benezia are exposed. Now they're upset, because what was right in their grasp is now beyond them. So now they really do need the Conduit. Benezia can lampshade the irony in only needing the Cobduit because they got caught looking for the Conduit. Tali's voice recording becomes Saren and Benezia ordering the Eden Prime attack. This lets them talk about the Conduit before they know what it is, and clears up the impossible sequencing.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2017 22:41:52 GMT
Ok, then tell me how you would write this? First no villains in any sci fi heck most movies and tv used sound logic, he'll most real criminals don't. In a setting like this it has to allow for good gameplay and plot direction. The whole point of the conduit, Feros and Noviera was for thus. First Sovereign could not bypass the Prothean's sabotage and needed the back door. Second the point of Feros and Noveria was to search for said door. IMO ME1's main saving grace is the plot. I'll play. Here's a minimalist version which preserves most of the structure of the existing game -- I'm personally with the folks who wish that Saren being the enemy had been a late reveal rather than done in the prologue, so this is just a patch job rather than how I'd write the game. There's a common bit of fanwankery that Saren didn't know what the Conduit was until he found the Eden Prime beacon, which kind of works if we ignore Saren and Benezia's dialogue. This requires Sovereign to have been really wrong about what was going on on the Citadel -- looking for some sort of high-tech undetectable suppression field shutting down the relay rather than checking to see if something was wrong on the Citadel itself. This is OK, though-- technologically-superior beings thinking that they can only be defeated by superior tech is a good trope. What we need are two different Saren and Benezia conversations.Convo #1 happens right after Eden Prime. Saren and Benezia are a little annoyed, but also a little amused. Turns out that their whole theory has been wrong and going after the Conduit is a waste of time. It doesn't matter because they haven't lost anything yet. All they need to do is mobiliza their forces and seize the Council Chamber; obviously, they won't mention it by name at this point. Convo#2 happens after Saren and Benezia are exposed. Now they're upset, because what was right in their grasp is now beyond them. So now they really do need the Conduit. Benezia can lampshade the irony in only needing the Cobduit because they got caught looking for the Conduit. Tali's voice recording becomes Saren and Benezia ordering the Eden Prime attack. This lets them talk about the Conduit before they know what it is, and clears up the impossible sequencing. I agree the sequence of events is a bit off in places but it's far from bad storytelling.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jul 7, 2017 22:56:49 GMT
How do you know? You've only done the ten hour trial at release. You should preface every single one of your posts with that. Or put it in your signature. This is a tired argument - but if a game can't make me interested in ten hours I'm not going to spend 100 on it. I've played ten hours, then watched the cut scenes and ending - it's pretty generic and boring. There's no more room in my signature. Tired or not, they have a point. You haven't played the game enough to comment on the game's choices. I'm not in the camp that says you have to play the whole game to decide whether you like it or not... but... you can't really comment on the content of the game if you haven't played it.
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Post by vonuber on Jul 7, 2017 22:57:05 GMT
This is a tired argument - but if a game can't make me interested in ten hours I'm not going to spend 100 on it. I've played ten hours, then watched the cut scenes and ending - it's pretty generic and boring. There's no more room in my signature. Funny isn't it - I said the exact same about the Witcher 3 but apparently that's different for some reason in your eyes.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 7, 2017 23:04:20 GMT
When playing only ME1? I don't remind much choices with consequences that aren't immediate local consequence. But my point of view could be flawed because the black and white approach never worked that well for me. Here a probably incomplete list for MEA: orcz.com/Mass_Effect_Andromeda:_Choices_and_ConsequencesI don't see ME1 alone doing significantly better. ME is more interesting on that aspect only from the full trilogy perspective. To me the choices in the trilogy were largely interesting and exciting with a sense of urgency - in Andromeda it's more like being a bean counter where choices are like checking off boxes - again, boiling down to the weak/boring writing. That doesn't really say much for ME1 though. After all, ME1 lacked urgency entirely until its final act, which was odd for a main mission called a Race Against Time.
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Post by suikoden on Jul 7, 2017 23:06:18 GMT
This is a tired argument - but if a game can't make me interested in ten hours I'm not going to spend 100 on it. I've played ten hours, then watched the cut scenes and ending - it's pretty generic and boring. There's no more room in my signature. Funny isn't it - I said the exact same about the Witcher 3 but apparently that's different for some reason in your eyes. If that was the case for a majority of players, to the point where anger and ridicule divided up TW3 fan base to the tune of a 4/10 user score and mediocre critical scores, then your point would gain validity - as is, you're just an outlier - so yes, that's different.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 8, 2017 0:23:08 GMT
I'll play. Here's a minimalist version which preserves most of the structure of the existing game -- I'm personally with the folks who wish that Saren being the enemy had been a late reveal rather than done in the prologue, so this is just a patch job rather than how I'd write the game. We There's a common bit of fanwankery that Saren didn't know what the Conduit was until he found the Eden Prime beacon, which kind of works if we ignore Saren and Benezia's dialogue. This requires Sovereign to have been really wrong about what was going on on the Citadel -- looking for some sort of high-tech undetectable suppression field shutting down the relay rather than checking to see if something was wrong on the Citadel itself. This is OK, though-- technologically-superior beings thinking that they can only be defeated by superior tech is a good trope. What we need are two different Saren and Benezia conversations.Convo #1 happens right after Eden Prime. Saren and Benezia are a little annoyed, but also a little amused. Turns out that their whole theory has been wrong and going after the Conduit is a waste of time. It doesn't matter because they haven't lost anything yet. All they need to do is mobiliza their forces and seize the Council Chamber; obviously, they won't mention it by name at this point. Convo#2 happens after Saren and Benezia are exposed. Now they're upset, because what was right in their grasp is now beyond them. So now they really do need the Conduit. Benezia can lampshade the irony in only needing the Cobduit because they got caught looking for the Conduit. Tali's voice recording becomes Saren and Benezia ordering the Eden Prime attack. This lets them talk about the Conduit before they know what it is, and clears up the impossible sequencing. I agree the sequence of events is a bit off in places but it's far from bad storytelling. Why are you quoting me when your remark is completely unrelated to my post? There's no argument there. If you intend to say that the problems I'm attempting to solve above -- with, admittedly, limited success-- aren't actually problems, then you should. Be saying why they're not problems.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 8, 2017 0:23:43 GMT
Just going from Sovereign's perspective here, but it didn't need Feros or Noveria to activate the Citadel relay. It needed a being capable of flipping the switch; ala geth. Given how Sovereign just kind of soars to the Citadel tower and latches on; he could probably just indoctrinate the council with his presence and have them do it. The beacons only served as exposition dumps...which Sovereign didn't need. Indeed, from the villain's perspective, ME 1 has a pretty silly plot. Ok, then tell me how you would write this? First no villains in any sci fi heck most movies and tv used sound logic, he'll most real criminals don't. In a setting like this it has to allow for good gameplay and plot direction. The whole point of the conduit, Feros and Noviera was for thus. First Sovereign could not bypass the Prothean's sabotage and needed the back door. Second the point of Feros and Noveria was to search for said door. IMO ME1's main saving grace is the plot. A bare bones and basic plot and interesting sci-fi mash up universe is all ME1 really had.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2017 1:25:23 GMT
I agree the sequence of events is a bit off in places but it's far from bad storytelling. Why are you quoting me when your remark is completely unrelated to my post? There's no argument there. If you intend to say that the problems I'm attempting to solve above -- with, admittedly, limited success-- aren't actually problems, then you should. Be saying why they're not problems. Maybe because I was responding to you? However I guess I may have read it wrong. If I'm understanding you, you would prefer a more in depth reaper story and Saren being a late reveal. I do agree that the plot may be fairly basic sci fi , but my opinion is that it was good not great. Your ideas are a bit better but I prefer the way it is. Story wise however ME 2 & 3 are miles better.
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outlaw1109
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Post by outlaw1109 on Jul 8, 2017 2:58:11 GMT
Just going from Sovereign's perspective here, but it didn't need Feros or Noveria to activate the Citadel relay. It needed a being capable of flipping the switch; ala geth. Given how Sovereign just kind of soars to the Citadel tower and latches on; he could probably just indoctrinate the council with his presence and have them do it. The beacons only served as exposition dumps...which Sovereign didn't need. Indeed, from the villain's perspective, ME 1 has a pretty silly plot. Ok, then tell me how you would write this? First no villains in any sci fi heck most movies and tv used sound logic, he'll most real criminals don't. In a setting like this it has to allow for good gameplay and plot direction. The whole point of the conduit, Feros and Noviera was for thus. First Sovereign could not bypass the Prothean's sabotage and needed the back door. Second the point of Feros and Noveria was to search for said door. IMO ME1's main saving grace is the plot. What? False. The best written villains are the ones who make sense. The most popular movies in the world have the best written villains. To fix the plot of ME 1? It would be fairly simple. You just give Sovereign a reason to fear the citadel. OR you change the sequence of events during the battle. My issue is that, when Saren enters the conduit, Sovereign just swoops into the citadel like it's easy. He didn't need saren to do that. He could have had Geth on board and just send them to activate the relay. In fact, Saren is his weakness. For some reason, defeating Saren makes Sovereign vulnerable. So, let's say the Protheans did more than modify the signal. Let's say they added something like an automated defense to deal with Sovereign. A virus or an EMP. You don't find out about this until Vigil tells you. AND NOW, we have a reason for Sovereign to be cautious the entire game. He knows he can't just overtake the Citadel defenses on his own. It's just off the top of my head, but it's the only real way to deal with the concept of reapers being all powerful yet make ME 1 make any kind of sense. The literary device I'm referring to is a Chekhov's Gun. Basically something that works once specifically to kill Sovereign. OH...and this DOESN'T fix the ME: 3 star child plot hole. Meaning: the...uh...intelligence that controls the reapers is housed in the citadel...or IS the citadel...which kind of destroys the Protheans security measures...I mean, why didn't the star child just open the relay his/herself?
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2017 3:00:14 GMT
Ok, then tell me how you would write this? First no villains in any sci fi heck most movies and tv used sound logic, he'll most real criminals don't. In a setting like this it has to allow for good gameplay and plot direction. The whole point of the conduit, Feros and Noviera was for thus. First Sovereign could not bypass the Prothean's sabotage and needed the back door. Second the point of Feros and Noveria was to search for said door. IMO ME1's main saving grace is the plot. What? False. The best written villains are the ones who make sense. The most popular movies in the world have the best written villains. To fix the plot of ME 1? It would be fairly simple. You just give Sovereign a reason to fear the citadel. OR you change the sequence of events during the battle. My issue is that, when Saren enters the conduit, Sovereign just swoops into the citadel like it's easy. He didn't need saren to do that. He could have had Geth on board and just send them to activate the relay. In fact, Saren is his weakness. For some reason, defeating Saren makes Sovereign vulnerable. So, let's say the Protheans did more than modify the signal. Let's say they added something like an automated defense to deal with Sovereign. A virus or an EMP. You don't find out about this until Vigil tells you. AND NOW, we have a reason for Sovereign to be cautious the entire game. He knows he can't just overtake the Citadel defenses on his own. It's just off the top of my head, but it's the only real way to deal with the concept of reapers being all powerful yet make ME 1 make any kind of sense. The literary device I'm referring to is a Chekhov's Gun. Basically something that works once specifically to kill Sovereign. I've already addressed my thoughts in not repeating it.
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outlaw1109
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Post by outlaw1109 on Jul 8, 2017 3:06:51 GMT
What? False. The best written villains are the ones who make sense. The most popular movies in the world have the best written villains. To fix the plot of ME 1? It would be fairly simple. You just give Sovereign a reason to fear the citadel. OR you change the sequence of events during the battle. My issue is that, when Saren enters the conduit, Sovereign just swoops into the citadel like it's easy. He didn't need saren to do that. He could have had Geth on board and just send them to activate the relay. In fact, Saren is his weakness. For some reason, defeating Saren makes Sovereign vulnerable. So, let's say the Protheans did more than modify the signal. Let's say they added something like an automated defense to deal with Sovereign. A virus or an EMP. You don't find out about this until Vigil tells you. AND NOW, we have a reason for Sovereign to be cautious the entire game. He knows he can't just overtake the Citadel defenses on his own. It's just off the top of my head, but it's the only real way to deal with the concept of reapers being all powerful yet make ME 1 make any kind of sense. The literary device I'm referring to is a Chekhov's Gun. Basically something that works once specifically to kill Sovereign. I've already addressed my thoughts in not repeating it. In other words, you're like the Turian councelor: "Ah yes, 'plot holes', we've already dismissed that claim".
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 8, 2017 3:10:40 GMT
I've already addressed my thoughts in not repeating it. In other words, you're like the Turian councelor: "Ah yes, 'plot holes', we've already dismissed that claim". No I just have a different view on what is/isn't s plot hole. At best imo the only plot hole is the council saying "we know he's hitting the Citadel" before that is revealed. As I've said the plot isn't as good as the other games but not as full of holes as you claim.
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