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Post by outlaw1109 on Jul 7, 2017 6:56:13 GMT
Access code? What on earth are you talking about? Vigil gave Shepard a disc, but not Saren; if they'd met Saren would have blown Vigil up. Shepard walks into the council chamber at will; why couldn't Saren? And my objection to the human council was that it was incoherent nonsense; saying that it was only there to be a dick move is not any kind of response to that criticism. Bio could have come up with a dick move which wasn't incoherent nonsense. You seem to have completely lost track of what we're talking about. I'm not saying that the MET makes less sense than other RPGs -- it makes less sense than some RPGs, but more sense than others. I'm just saying that it's badly plotted. And since you're not actually denying that, do we really have a substantive disagreement? It sounds like you're just upset about me being mean to the trilogy. It makes less sense that Sovereign used Saren to begin with. He didn't need him to serve any purpose a Geth couldn't fulfil. And the Geth would likely be easier to control. But we needed an enemy with subjective morality, I guess.
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Post by dillk on Jul 7, 2017 7:10:58 GMT
The thread is long so I can't say I check all, but I failed quote any post about the elements let open at end of MEA. I remind various points: - There's a big interrogation mark about the Andromeda project itself, its funding source, what's and who's behind, who's the benefactor, why the leader of Andromeda project get killed. - Even Ryder family story line isn't concluded as the mother aspect is still open. - The remnant aspect and their enemy (who's behind the Scourge) is a story thread not concluded at all. - The Kett threaten is another story thread fully open and not concluded. - The ark lost that contact at end and warn to not search them, is opening two story threads, the ark itself and a mysterious new threaten, why they don't want help. - The AI itself is a potential open story element, how this will evolve.
For me there's a lot of element for a close follow up of MEA. And it would make no sense to make a sequel 100 years later. So for sure Ryder can't mark as much then Shepard and it seems many players feel Ryder is trash-able. But for me Shepard is no way more interesting at end of ME1.
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Post by suikoden on Jul 7, 2017 7:52:12 GMT
The thread is long so I can't say I check all, but I failed quote any post about the elements let open at end of MEA. I remind various points: - There's a big interrogation mark about the Andromeda project itself, its funding source, what's and who's behind, who's the benefactor, why the leader of Andromeda project get killed. - Even Ryder family story line isn't concluded as the mother aspect is still open. - The remnant aspect and their enemy (who's behind the Scourge) is a story thread not concluded at all. - The Kett threaten is another story thread fully open and not concluded. - The ark lost that contact at end and warn to not search them, is opening two story threads, the ark itself and a mysterious new threaten, why they don't want help. - The AI itself is a potential open story element, how this will evolve. For me there's a lot of element for a close follow up of MEA. And it would make no sense to make a sequel 100 years later. So for sure Ryder can't mark as much then Shepard and it seems many players feel Ryder is trash-able. But for me Shepard is no way more interesting at end of ME1. I think part of the reason Ryder feels more "trash-able' is because Andromeda's story fell flat for a lot of people, where he/she wasn't presented with very many interesting altercations along the way. Combined with that, is the lack of choice via watered down personalities in dialogue - whereas in the trilogy, players had more ownership over making a distinct version of Shepard they could identify with via black and white choices. We also knew beforehand that our choices were carrying over/mattered, so that added to the immediate connection between players and Shepard. Ryder is just kind of "meh" in comparison - but that's the writing's fault more than anything (exacerbated by the animations - unfortunately).
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Post by vonuber on Jul 7, 2017 8:38:57 GMT
Haven't you only played the initial 10 hour trial?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 10:59:53 GMT
The player shouldn't be allowed to choose a human-dominated council. The fundamental power relationships in the galaxy aren't changed by anything Shepard does. Even if the prime ministers of all NATO countries except Belgium were to be assassinated tomorrow, the probability of Belgium becoming the leading power in the alliance would still be zero. I disagree with this one, if anything the ending in which the council is sacrificed does make it clear that the power relationships have been altered by Shepard's actions. Udina explicitly states that the citadel fleets where decimated during Sovereign's attack and that the other races can't rebuild without humanity's help. Furthermore The council races do not merely have to cope with dead of several statesmen but also with a total loss of naval assets around the citadel, the dead of a large part of the citadel's law enforcement and severe structral damage to the citadel itself. So saying that Shepard's actions didn't alter the balance of power in the galaxy is wrong assesment when the explicit narrative of ending (even if the council was saved!) is that Shepard's did alter said balance. One could validly argue that Humanity's rapid ascent to power is implausable and contrived given ME's earlier depiction of the Alliance, yet the precedent for such jumps was created when Humanity recieved an embassy less than ten solar years after first contact, with Avina mentioning that century or more is standard (I assume she's talking about solar centuries), or that Humanity was considerd for the Spectres around that same time (The events of Revelation take place right after Humanity's embassy openend, in 2165). However I'd say the responsabilty for these continuinty issues lie more with Mass Effect's premise than with it's conclusion. Funny enough, if the council was sacrificed then Mass Effect 2 opens with a title screen that literally states humanity seized political control of the galaxy, even though this quickly is rendered moot as Cerberus is set up to be only group looking out for the abducted human colonies, so much for seizing control. As a whole though Mass Effect 2 is probably a more interesting setting with the council sacrficied, increased social tensions on the citadel, the Asari ceding their defence responsbilies and Turians starting an arms race by unilaterally rescinding treaty obligations. It's such as shame that Mass Effect 3 just brushes all this aside, and reduces it down to just war assets or neglects it all together (in some cases the war assets don't make much sense either, like the Alliance fleet not recovering from their losses from the battle citadel three years earlier).
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2017 11:58:14 GMT
Ok first why are you here if you can't stand the series as a whole? Huh? Don't be ridiculous. I've said no such thing, ever. My position is and always has been that Mass Effect is a muddled, poorly-plotted mess, which I like anyway. Access code? What on earth are you talking about? Vigil gave Shepard a disc, but not Saren; if they'd met Saren would have blown Vigil up. Shepard walks into the council chamber at will; why couldn't Saren? And my objection to the human council was that it was incoherent nonsense; saying that it was only there to be a dick move is not any kind of response to that criticism. Bio could have come up with a dick move which wasn't incoherent nonsense. You seem to have completely lost track of what we're talking about. I'm not saying that the MET makes less sense than other RPGs -- it makes less sense than some RPGs, but more sense than others. I'm just saying that it's badly plotted. And since you're not actually denying that, do we really have a substantive disagreement? It sounds like you're just upset about me being mean to the trilogy. Ok first it's hard to take anything you say seriously, especially since you are being an ass about it. Second you have a point about the council chamber but then we'd literally have no game to play. Things like this have to be written in a way to actually have a story to play. Your way would have the game end before it starts. Is some of it convenient? Yes but not bad.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2017 11:59:51 GMT
Also what do you mean Saren searching for something he had? He had Sovereign but not the means to activate the Relay. The trouble with the conduit is that it's a McGuffin that ultimately doesn't really do anything at all for the villains of the story, and actually makes them kind of dumb. The truth is that Sovereign would have been at a greater advantage if it simply bumrushed the Citadel with the geth ships right from the start and not even bother with this silly beacon. No one would know what the frak was going on, the Citadel fleets would be totally in disarray. No one would know what the hell this ship was doing while it was doing the tentacle porn thing all over the Citadel's central hub, then the relay would open and the Shit Show of Doom can finally commence. When it comes down to it, the reaper and its turian sidekick were taking the extremely long way around fixing a technical issue. True but as I pointed out the game would end before it starts otherwise.
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Post by shechinah on Jul 7, 2017 14:07:17 GMT
Mass Effect 2 had it especially because it pretty much needed you to never think about its story because very little of it made sense. Really? I don't see that at all other than the unreality of the resurrection. I'm sick at the moment but I would like to get back to you on this with a post about my problems in regards to mass Effect 2's story. I thought I had an old post lying around but it turns out I didn't so I have to write it down again. Not well enough for that at the moment, though. Like I said, I would like to get back to you on this if you're still interested.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2017 14:10:59 GMT
Really? I don't see that at all other than the unreality of the resurrection. I'm sick at the moment but I would like to get back to you on this with a post about my problems in regards to mass Effect 2's story. I thought I had an old post lying around but it turns out I didn't so I have to write it down again. Not well enough for that at the moment, though. Like I said, I would like to get back to you on this if you're still interested. Thoughtful discussion? Always lol. Sure when you feel better I'd be happy to.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 7, 2017 15:16:57 GMT
The trouble with the conduit is that it's a McGuffin that ultimately doesn't really do anything at all for the villains of the story, and actually makes them kind of dumb. The truth is that Sovereign would have been at a greater advantage if it simply bumrushed the Citadel with the geth ships right from the start and not even bother with this silly beacon. No one would know what the frak was going on, the Citadel fleets would be totally in disarray. No one would know what the hell this ship was doing while it was doing the tentacle porn thing all over the Citadel's central hub, then the relay would open and the Shit Show of Doom can finally commence. When it comes down to it, the reaper and its turian sidekick were taking the extremely long way around fixing a technical issue. True but as I pointed out the game would end before it starts otherwise. I know, but personally that's not a great excuse either, because a big part of the problem is that Sovereign was practically indestructible. If the reapers relied entirely on the element of surprise otherwise they'd be decimated, then I could see them being desperate, but Sovy could've sat back and waited while the rest of the fleet flood in and ransack the galaxy anyway.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2017 15:28:08 GMT
True but as I pointed out the game would end before it starts otherwise. I know, but personally that's not a great excuse either, because a big part of the problem is that Sovereign was practically indestructible. If the reapers relied entirely on the element of surprise otherwise they'd be decimated, then I could see them being desperate, but Sovy could've sat back and waited while the rest of the fleet flood in and ransack the galaxy anyway. I do see your point I do but from a storytelling perspective it wouldn't have worked unless you simply wanted a "scorched Earth" story.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 7, 2017 15:32:35 GMT
Access code? What on earth are you talking about? Vigil gave Shepard a disc, but not Saren; if they'd met Saren would have blown Vigil up. Shepard walks into the council chamber at will; why couldn't Saren? It makes less sense that Sovereign used Saren to begin with. He didn't need him to serve any purpose a Geth couldn't fulfil. And the Geth would likely be easier to control. But we needed an enemy with subjective morality, I guess. And a face and voice. Sovereign did need organics to run the Noveria and Feros parts of the operation, though.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 7, 2017 15:56:16 GMT
Also what do you mean Saren searching for something he had? He had Sovereign but not the means to activate the Relay. The trouble with the conduit is that it's a McGuffin that ultimately doesn't really do anything at all for the villains of the story, and actually makes them kind of dumb. The truth is that Sovereign would have been at a greater advantage if it simply bumrushed the Citadel with the geth ships right from the start and not even bother with this silly beacon. No one would know what the frak was going on, the Citadel fleets would be totally in disarray. No one would know what the hell this ship was doing while it was doing the tentacle porn thing all over the Citadel's central hub, then the relay would open and the Shit Show of Doom can finally commence. When it comes down to it, the reaper and its turian sidekick were taking the extremely long way around fixing a technical issue. He'd still want Saren or Benezia or somebody to walk up to that panel and override the Citadel arm controls, just in case. Of course, walking up to it would be all it took, since Shepard can walk there just fine. Protip: if your Evil Plan requires that a switch be moved to position "B" and stay there, have your henchman blow the switch up after moving it.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 7, 2017 16:02:37 GMT
Huh? Don't be ridiculous. I've said no such thing, ever. My position is and always has been that Mass Effect is a muddled, poorly-plotted mess, which I like anyway. Access code? What on earth are you talking about? Vigil gave Shepard a disc, but not Saren; if they'd met Saren would have blown Vigil up. Shepard walks into the council chamber at will; why couldn't Saren? And my objection to the human council was that it was incoherent nonsense; saying that it was only there to be a dick move is not any kind of response to that criticism. Bio could have come up with a dick move which wasn't incoherent nonsense. You seem to have completely lost track of what we're talking about. I'm not saying that the MET makes less sense than other RPGs -- it makes less sense than some RPGs, but more sense than others. I'm just saying that it's badly plotted. And since you're not actually denying that, do we really have a substantive disagreement? It sounds like you're just upset about me being mean to the trilogy. Ok first it's hard to take anything you say seriously, especially since you are being an ass about it. Second you have a point about the council chamber but then we'd literally have no game to play. Things like this have to be written in a way to actually have a story to play. Your way would have the game end before it starts. Is some of it convenient? Yes but not bad. So you are mad because I'm being mean to the trilogy? How else should I express these concepts? Stupid writing is stupid. Remember, we got here because of -- I think it was suikoden -- saying that the trilogy was well-plotted, in contrast to Andromeda. All vonuber and I and others have been doing is denying that proposition. And, again, you're not even arguing with that.
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Post by vonuber on Jul 7, 2017 16:18:06 GMT
Of course the biggest problem with the trilogy is that you can go straight from ME1 to ME3 and miss out all of ME2 without causing any issues. ME2 is practically a standalone story.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 7, 2017 16:20:39 GMT
I know, but personally that's not a great excuse either, because a big part of the problem is that Sovereign was practically indestructible. If the reapers relied entirely on the element of surprise otherwise they'd be decimated, then I could see them being desperate, but Sovy could've sat back and waited while the rest of the fleet flood in and ransack the galaxy anyway. I do see your point I do but from a storytelling perspective it wouldn't have worked unless you simply wanted a "scorched Earth" story. That's why the baddies should be more dependent on the success of their best laid plans, otherwise those plans turn out to be pointless and dumb, like the Collectors snatching up colonists.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 7, 2017 16:34:40 GMT
The player shouldn't be allowed to choose a human-dominated council. The fundamental power relationships in the galaxy aren't changed by anything Shepard does. Even if the prime ministers of all NATO countries except Belgium were to be assassinated tomorrow, the probability of Belgium becoming the leading power in the alliance would still be zero. I disagree with this one, if anything the ending in which the council is sacrificed does make it clear that the power relationships have been altered by Shepard's actions. Udina explicitly states that the citadel fleets where decimated during Sovereign's attack and that the other races can't rebuild without humanity's help. Furthermore The council races do not merely have to cope with dead of several statesmen but also with a total loss of naval assets around the citadel, the dead of a large part of the citadel's law enforcement and severe structral damage to the citadel itself. So saying that Shepard's actions didn't alter the balance of power in the galaxy is wrong assesment when the explicit narrative of ending (even if the council was saved!) is that Shepard's did alter said balance. Yeah, they tried to handwave it. The problem is that the handwave is completely divorced from the realities of the MEU. Humans have a relatively tiny population and industrial base; Earth is the only human world with more than a few million in population. And the small size of the Alliance military is established in lore.
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Post by warrior on Jul 7, 2017 16:35:14 GMT
The thread is long so I can't say I check all, but I failed quote any post about the elements let open at end of MEA. I remind various points: - There's a big interrogation mark about the Andromeda project itself, its funding source, what's and who's behind, who's the benefactor, why the leader of Andromeda project get killed. - Even Ryder family story line isn't concluded as the mother aspect is still open. - The remnant aspect and their enemy (who's behind the Scourge) is a story thread not concluded at all. - The Kett threaten is another story thread fully open and not concluded. - The ark lost that contact at end and warn to not search them, is opening two story threads, the ark itself and a mysterious new threaten, why they don't want help. - The AI itself is a potential open story element, how this will evolve. For me there's a lot of element for a close follow up of MEA. And it would make no sense to make a sequel 100 years later. So for sure Ryder can't mark as much then Shepard and it seems many players feel Ryder is trash-able. But for me Shepard is no way more interesting at end of ME1. I do find Shepard more interesting in ME1 for several reasons, some personal and some story/dialogue implementation, but I do think a lot of people are pitting trilogy Shepard against Ryder instead of ME1 Shepard against Ryder, which isn't a fair fight. If a sequel happens and they decide to move forward with Ryder, I think they really need to figure out how to complicate the character arc and make the character more complex in general. I feel like that was in some ways what the death/Laz project (which I LOVE and will not suffer fools who hated this decision!) was meant to do for ME1 Shepard, who was pretty generic as a military hero/savior in ME1 -- in ME2 he or she suddenly went from that to cyborgian undead built by and working for the terrorist org that ends up being a main antagonist in ME3. He or she went from universally beloved to distrusted by many, and then "disgraced' after the events of Arrival, and throughout ME2 and 3 is given opportunities to express more negative emotions than in ME1. Ryder needs some complication of his or her heroism (universally celebrated at the end of MEA) and some big impetus for a personal struggle or shift in perspective (like the ME2 death, but not that obviously), because for me he or she is just plain too happy and....basic...to be a remotely compelling protagonist (yet).
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2017 17:14:21 GMT
Ok first it's hard to take anything you say seriously, especially since you are being an ass about it. Second you have a point about the council chamber but then we'd literally have no game to play. Things like this have to be written in a way to actually have a story to play. Your way would have the game end before it starts. Is some of it convenient? Yes but not bad. So you are mad because I'm being mean to the trilogy? How else should I express these concepts? Stupid writing is stupid. Remember, we got here because of -- I think it was suikoden -- saying that the trilogy was well-plotted, in contrast to Andromeda. All vonuber and I and others have been doing is denying that proposition. And, again, you're not even arguing with that. Know I'm arguing that I don't believe it's stupid writing.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2017 17:16:52 GMT
I do see your point I do but from a storytelling perspective it wouldn't have worked unless you simply wanted a "scorched Earth" story. That's why the baddies should be more dependent on the success of their best laid plans, otherwise those plans turn out to be pointless and dumb, like the Collectors snatching up colonists. In an ideal world we'd have realistic bad guys. However if I wanted real life I wouldn't play games. I liike to escape into environments like this that I can enjoy.
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Post by suikoden on Jul 7, 2017 18:08:58 GMT
Haven't you only played the initial 10 hour trial? It didn't take me longer than 10 minutes let alone 10 hours to realize Ryder has all the charisma and likeability of a wet paper bag. Come to think of it, he/she would ideally be wearing the paper bag as well.
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Post by vonuber on Jul 7, 2017 18:12:30 GMT
Haven't you only played the initial 10 hour trial? It didn't take me longer than 10 minutes let alone 10 hours to realize Ryder has all the charisma and likeability of a wet paper bag. Come to think of it, he/she would ideally be wearing the paper bag as well. That's a yes then. You do realise how even more stupid that makes your obsessive posting look? Although I guess you actually revall in it now as otherwise you'd have stopped long ago.
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Post by dillk on Jul 7, 2017 18:34:45 GMT
The thread is long so I can't say I check all, but I failed quote any post about the elements let open at end of MEA. I remind various points: - There's a big interrogation mark about the Andromeda project itself, its funding source, what's and who's behind, who's the benefactor, why the leader of Andromeda project get killed. - Even Ryder family story line isn't concluded as the mother aspect is still open. - The remnant aspect and their enemy (who's behind the Scourge) is a story thread not concluded at all. - The Kett threaten is another story thread fully open and not concluded. - The ark lost that contact at end and warn to not search them, is opening two story threads, the ark itself and a mysterious new threaten, why they don't want help. - The AI itself is a potential open story element, how this will evolve. For me there's a lot of element for a close follow up of MEA. And it would make no sense to make a sequel 100 years later. So for sure Ryder can't mark as much then Shepard and it seems many players feel Ryder is trash-able. But for me Shepard is no way more interesting at end of ME1. I think part of the reason Ryder feels more "trash-able' is because Andromeda's story fell flat for a lot of people, where he/she wasn't presented with very many interesting altercations along the way. Combined with that, is the lack of choice via watered down personalities in dialogue - whereas in the trilogy, players had more ownership over making a distinct version of Shepard they could identify with via black and white choices. We also knew beforehand that our choices were carrying over/mattered, so that added to the immediate connection between players and Shepard. Ryder is just kind of "meh" in comparison - but that's the writing's fault more than anything (exacerbated by the animations - unfortunately). When playing only ME1? I don't remind much choices with consequences that aren't immediate local consequence. But my point of view could be flawed because the black and white approach never worked that well for me. Here a probably incomplete list for MEA: orcz.com/Mass_Effect_Andromeda:_Choices_and_ConsequencesI don't see ME1 alone doing significantly better. ME is more interesting on that aspect only from the full trilogy perspective.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 7, 2017 18:36:10 GMT
It didn't take me longer than 10 minutes let alone 10 hours to realize Ryder has all the charisma and likeability of a wet paper bag. Come to think of it, he/she would ideally be wearing the paper bag as well. That's a yes then. You do realise how even more stupid that makes your obsessive posting look? Although I guess you actually revall in it now as otherwise you'd have stopped long ago. Yeah don't bother. If you try logic on him all hell breaks loose.
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Post by suikoden on Jul 7, 2017 18:51:30 GMT
I think part of the reason Ryder feels more "trash-able' is because Andromeda's story fell flat for a lot of people, where he/she wasn't presented with very many interesting altercations along the way. Combined with that, is the lack of choice via watered down personalities in dialogue - whereas in the trilogy, players had more ownership over making a distinct version of Shepard they could identify with via black and white choices. We also knew beforehand that our choices were carrying over/mattered, so that added to the immediate connection between players and Shepard. Ryder is just kind of "meh" in comparison - but that's the writing's fault more than anything (exacerbated by the animations - unfortunately). When playing only ME1? I don't remind much choices with consequences that aren't immediate local consequence. But my point of view could be flawed because the black and white approach never worked that well for me. Here a probably incomplete list for MEA: orcz.com/Mass_Effect_Andromeda:_Choices_and_ConsequencesI don't see ME1 alone doing significantly better. ME is more interesting on that aspect only from the full trilogy perspective. To me the choices in the trilogy were largely interesting and exciting with a sense of urgency - in Andromeda it's more like being a bean counter where choices are like checking off boxes - again, boiling down to the weak/boring writing.
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