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Post by griffith82 on Jul 12, 2017 0:42:35 GMT
That is blatantly false which you'd know if you played the game. It is blatently sarcasm - obviously... my main point is true. Did Alec's predictable death make you feel anything? Apart from it being a plot contrivance? Yes it did.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 12, 2017 0:47:18 GMT
That is blatantly false which you'd know if you played the game. It is blatently sarcasm - obviously... my main point is true. Did Alec's predictable death make you feel anything? Apart from it being a plot contrivance? Sure, at the time I maybe didn't feel a whole lot. It was sad, but it was no Mordin. But that wasn't the point. It's like the movie P.S. I Love You. Butler dies immediately, do you don't feel much. But damn it if ever flashback doesn't make me cry. Same here for Alec. Initially, kinda sad. After that, when you unlock his memories, it really punches you in the gut. Makes you feel throughout the game instead of just one sad moment. The relationship builds, even after death.
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Post by Furisco on Jul 12, 2017 0:49:45 GMT
I didn't needed much. I just wanted a cool af villain and cool enemies to shoot at. Sadly the villain is trash.
I miss Saren.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 12, 2017 0:51:44 GMT
I didn't needed much. I just wanted a cool af villain and cool enemies to shoot at. Sadly the villain is trash. I miss Saren. Saren? Why? His plan was not well thought out. What'd he need the Conduit for anyway!
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Post by Furisco on Jul 12, 2017 0:55:49 GMT
I didn't needed much. I just wanted a cool af villain and cool enemies to shoot at. Sadly the villain is trash. I miss Saren. Saren? Why? His plan was not well thought out. What'd he need the Conduit for anyway! But he was so cooooooool.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 12, 2017 0:56:23 GMT
I didn't needed much. I just wanted a cool af villain and cool enemies to shoot at. Sadly the villain is trash. I miss Saren. Saren? Why? His plan was not well thought out. What'd he need the Conduit for anyway! The whole point of that was a Backdoor to access the command console unseen but yeah it retrospect wasn't the best plan. Still the story IMO is ME1 only saving grace.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 12, 2017 0:57:01 GMT
Saren? Why? His plan was not well thought out. What'd he need the Conduit for anyway! But he was so cooooooool. Not really. TIM on the other hand.
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Post by Furisco on Jul 12, 2017 1:00:59 GMT
But he was so cooooooool. Not really. TIM on the other hand. Saren is cooler but TIM is cool too. Villains don't need to make sense people. They just need to look cool and have a good voice.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 12, 2017 1:01:22 GMT
Saren? Why? His plan was not well thought out. What'd he need the Conduit for anyway! But he was so cooooooool. Welllll... K yeah, he was pretty effing cool. Flying around on his hoverboard, always cool, calm, and collected... Saren was boss.
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Post by Furisco on Jul 12, 2017 1:06:08 GMT
And it's even better if the villain is campy af.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 1:10:44 GMT
When the player (Ryder) actively listens to what his squad is talking about when in the Nomad.. That's when he/she truly gets to know his/her companions. You're complaining because they just didn't stick with the info-dump formula conversations they used in ME1... which weren't all that deep. Tali was a very one-dimensional character in ME1, so was Garrus, and Wrex and even Kaidan. Ashley had a little more depth to her conversations... but not much and certainly what depth there was to her character never went anywhere. In two conversations combined with Lexi's comments, Ryder knew more about Suvi's faith in God than he ever found out about Ashley in ME1. He gets even more by listening to how she interacts with Kallo. No, the squad in ME:A are not one-dimensional characters... but the player has to be willing to listen to enough of the game to unearth the multiple dimensions within each character and understand them better. It's not just about the conversations you have at on the ship anymore... and that's a vast, vast improvement over ME:A. colfoley , in his review way back when, got it right... this game is a "slow burn"... The problem is that so many people really don't want to put that much time into slowly progressing through the game to learn that depth is really there. Like they continually demonstrate on this site... they can't wait for anything and can't wait to pass quick judgment on everything... so, they've just completely missed out on what is a very good RPG game. The humour and lighthearted tone where everyone cracks jokes kills any desire for progression. I only managed ten hours because of my loyalty to the series, and the thought that Bioware knew what they were doing and surely "it'll get better" - but it never did. Reviews and YouTube playthroughs then confirmed that. Sucks to be you then.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 12, 2017 1:36:14 GMT
That is blatantly false which you'd know if you played the game. It is blatently sarcasm - obviously... my main point is true. Did Alec's predictable death make you feel anything? Apart from it being a plot contrivance? i felt something.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 12, 2017 2:01:38 GMT
It is blatently sarcasm - obviously... my main point is true. Did Alec's predictable death make you feel anything? Apart from it being a plot contrivance? i felt something. So did I and it only intensified when I saw his memories.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 12, 2017 2:05:51 GMT
Did anyone else see P.S. I Love You?
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Post by kino on Jul 12, 2017 2:06:20 GMT
Sure, at the time I maybe didn't feel a whole lot. It was sad, but it was no Mordin. But that wasn't the point. It's like the movie P.S. I Love You. Butler dies immediately, do you don't feel much. But damn it if ever flashback doesn't make me cry. Same here for Alec. Initially, kinda sad. After that, when you unlock his memories, it really punches you in the gut. Makes you feel throughout the game instead of just one sad moment. The relationship builds, even after death. Same. As the memories are discovered Alex's story definitely becomes more poignant and personal. It was a pretty good plot device.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Jul 12, 2017 2:24:30 GMT
Don't you think that stuff about the companions would be better in actual conversations that you can interact with over driving in a nomad where odds are most players are to busy fighting crap dropping in or going from point A to point B? I'd hardly consider it integral to the narrative if one has to be in the nomad but that's me. Not much interaction when you barely reply to them. No, I don't agree with that. Asking Tali about her government was not really being "interactive" anyways. It was very stilted... "what's that" sort of dialogue. The necessity of pausing to use the wheel breaks a lot of the immersion. Too much of it just drags the game right down, IMO and makes the NPCs feel like walking codices... not 3D characters. Hearing how Jaal describes his family differently with each different crew mate in the nomad (because he perceives them to have different personalities and adjusts to talk with them) tells me a great deal in more depth about Jaal's own personality. I can even compare it to how he interacts differently with different personalities of Ryder when they do have a conversation on the ship or in one of the outposts. It tells me what character traits he values and which ones he doesn't... which is far more three dimensional than describing one's government or culture in an info dump. Even just looking at it numerically, there are more actual dialogue wheel conversations of a personal nature with each individual of the crew throughout the game on multiple different topics than there ever was in ME1. Most "personal" conversations in ME1 were limited to 4 for each crew mate. For example... Garrus - you talked to him once when he first got on the ship, you talked to him again when he told you about Saleon, you talking to him once where he asked you if you were ever going to catch Saren, you talked to him again after you did that message and he thanked you... and he basically repeated that for the remainder of the game. I honestly do not get why people think he's such a deeply written character in ME1... clearly there is just not much to him. The depth of the ME1 characters is all in the heads of fans who are, for the most part, just intent on endlessly criticizing any ME game that came after ME1. And what if ME2 or ME3s character interactions that weren't so much info dumps as the first was? I can cherry pick a game doing bad dialogue too(however ME1 had to intro us to the universe to start out with so culture and political talk was necessarily just as it was with the Angara) but it doesn't just make Andromedas any better. How many people are going to be paying attention to the nomad dialogue when they'll be more focused on the driving and constantly getting in and out? Where as they could simply add more to the actual conversations you can dictate with the npcs yourself. I'd much rather engage with them myself than go the route of auto dialogue that Bioware has been pushing to support the more action focused approach over RPG, that ruins my immersion as I'm not dictating the conversation and my character says things I don't want to say. so sure, npcs may be more demensional but at the cost of restricting the protagonist.
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Post by suikoden on Jul 12, 2017 2:28:23 GMT
Sure, at the time I maybe didn't feel a whole lot. It was sad, but it was no Mordin. But that wasn't the point. It's like the movie P.S. I Love You. Butler dies immediately, do you don't feel much. But damn it if ever flashback doesn't make me cry. Same here for Alec. Initially, kinda sad. After that, when you unlock his memories, it really punches you in the gut. Makes you feel throughout the game instead of just one sad moment. The relationship builds, even after death. Same. As the memories are discovered Alex's story definitely becomes more poignant and personal. It was a pretty good plot device. Preferred how they used the memories in Breath of the Wild.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 12, 2017 3:02:12 GMT
Same. As the memories are discovered Alex's story definitely becomes more poignant and personal. It was a pretty good plot device. Preferred how they used the memories in Breath of the Wild. Also the sword play in BOTW was much better.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 3:44:23 GMT
No, I don't agree with that. Asking Tali about her government was not really being "interactive" anyways. It was very stilted... "what's that" sort of dialogue. The necessity of pausing to use the wheel breaks a lot of the immersion. Too much of it just drags the game right down, IMO and makes the NPCs feel like walking codices... not 3D characters. Hearing how Jaal describes his family differently with each different crew mate in the nomad (because he perceives them to have different personalities and adjusts to talk with them) tells me a great deal in more depth about Jaal's own personality. I can even compare it to how he interacts differently with different personalities of Ryder when they do have a conversation on the ship or in one of the outposts. It tells me what character traits he values and which ones he doesn't... which is far more three dimensional than describing one's government or culture in an info dump. Even just looking at it numerically, there are more actual dialogue wheel conversations of a personal nature with each individual of the crew throughout the game on multiple different topics than there ever was in ME1. Most "personal" conversations in ME1 were limited to 4 for each crew mate. For example... Garrus - you talked to him once when he first got on the ship, you talked to him again when he told you about Saleon, you talking to him once where he asked you if you were ever going to catch Saren, you talked to him again after you did that message and he thanked you... and he basically repeated that for the remainder of the game. I honestly do not get why people think he's such a deeply written character in ME1... clearly there is just not much to him. The depth of the ME1 characters is all in the heads of fans who are, for the most part, just intent on endlessly criticizing any ME game that came after ME1. And what if ME2 or ME3s character interactions that weren't so much info dumps as the first was? I can cherry pick a game doing bad dialogue too(however ME1 had to intro us to the universe to start out with so culture and political talk was necessarily just as it was with the Angara) but it doesn't just make Andromedas any better. How many people are going to be paying attention to the nomad dialogue when they'll be more focused on the driving and constantly getting in and out? Where as they could simply add more to the actual conversations you can dictate with the npcs yourself. I'd much rather engage with them myself than go the route of auto dialogue that Bioware has been pushing to support the more action focused approach over RPG, that ruins my immersion as I'm not dictating the conversation and my character says things I don't want to say. so sure, npcs may be more demensional but at the cost of restricting the protagonist. MEA is also introducing us to the game world... and did so without the huge info dump conversations that people seem to think were actually conversations. Ryder has a lot more conversations with his crew and a lot more conversations with some of the side characters than Shepard ever got with anyone. Ryder even has more meaningful conversation with Akksul than Shepard ever had with, say, Dr. Saleon. Clicking on a button to ask something like tell me about your culture IS NOT an interaction. Asking those things did not have any effect on shaping Shepard`s personality or have an consequences for decisions. Clicking the button is a conversation pacifier. Making the NPCs more dimensional via using ambient dialogue with each other does NOT restrict the protagonist in any way, shape, or form... and there are ample conversations with dialogue choices in ME:A where the player can actually shape their protagonist... many, many more than there are in ME1.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 12, 2017 3:52:39 GMT
And what if ME2 or ME3s character interactions that weren't so much info dumps as the first was? I can cherry pick a game doing bad dialogue too(however ME1 had to intro us to the universe to start out with so culture and political talk was necessarily just as it was with the Angara) but it doesn't just make Andromedas any better. How many people are going to be paying attention to the nomad dialogue when they'll be more focused on the driving and constantly getting in and out? Where as they could simply add more to the actual conversations you can dictate with the npcs yourself. I'd much rather engage with them myself than go the route of auto dialogue that Bioware has been pushing to support the more action focused approach over RPG, that ruins my immersion as I'm not dictating the conversation and my character says things I don't want to say. so sure, npcs may be more demensional but at the cost of restricting the protagonist. MEA is also introducing us to the game world... and did so without the huge info dump conversations that people seem to think were actually conversations. Ryder has a lot more conversations with his crew and a lot more conversations with some of the side characters than Shepard ever got with anyone. Ryder even has more meaningful conversation with Akksul than Shepard ever had with, say, Dr. Saleon. Clicking on a button to ask something like tell me about your culture IS NOT an interaction. Asking those things did not have any effect on shaping Shepard`s personality or have an consequences for decisions. Clicking the button is a conversation pacifier. Making the NPCs more dimensional via using ambient dialogue with each other does NOT restrict the protagonist in any way, shape, or form... and there are ample conversations with dialogue choices in ME:A where the player can actually shape their protagonist... many, many more than there are in ME1. to be fair though there are moments like that in MEA where you talk to Evfra or governor shie.
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Post by Monica21 on Jul 12, 2017 3:58:12 GMT
Preferred how they used the memories in Breath of the Wild. Is that because you played Breath of the Wild and didn't play Andromeda?
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Post by smilesja on Jul 12, 2017 4:33:27 GMT
Preferred how they used the memories in Breath of the Wild. Is that because you played Breath of the Wild and didn't play Andromeda? Or that he played it for over ten hours.
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Post by warrior on Jul 12, 2017 4:37:32 GMT
Commander Shepard: The last time we talked, you started speaking about a past event as if you were watching it. Thane Krios: Drell have perfect memories. We can relive any moment in our life with perfect clarity. It's difficult to control at times. Some of us disappear into... well, let's call it "solipsism." Commander Shepard: What do you mean, solipsism? Thane Krios: When a memory feels as real as life, it's as valid as life. Thinking about a moment brings back the smell of cut grass, the warmth of another's hand on yours, the taste of another's tongue in your mouth. Wouldn't you rather lose yourself in such a memory then spend the night alone, staring at walls of metal and plastic? Commander Shepard: Isn't that a rather personal memory to talk about? Thane Krios: Forgive me. Lately I have spent a great deal of time reviewing my life. I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable. Commander Shepard: Isn't there a risk that you could lose yourself in bad memories as well? Thane Krios: Of course. Remembering the times I've taken bullets is... unpleasant. But I can look at my knee and see it's not shattered. The memories that are hard to escape are those of despair. Commander Shepard: You can remember everything that happened in your life? Thane Krios: Nearly. I expect if we remembered the birth trauma, we'd never recover from it.
*
Mordin: Life is a negotiation. We all want. We all give to get what we want.
*
Legion: We discovered copies of our current patrol routes in this database. This suggests the heretics have runtimes within our networks. Shepard: We wouldn't be here if the heretics wanted to be friends with the geth. Why wouldn't they spy on us? Legion: You do not understand. Organics do not know each other's minds. Geth do. We are not suspicious. We accept each other. The heretics desired to leave. We understood their reasons. We allowed it. There was peace between us. Shepard: It couldn't have lasted forever. You disagreed about what path your race should take. (Paragon response) Legion: Human history is a litany of blood shed over differing ideals of rulership and afterlife. Geth have no such history. We shared consensus on such things.
*
Legion: (confused) How could we have become so different? Why can we no longer understand each other? What did we do wrong? (Paragon response) Shepard: When individuals are separated, they develop in different ways. When they get back together, they don't always get along. Legion: If this is the individuality you value, we question your judgment.
* Mordin: (scans corpse with omni-tool) Dead krogan. Female. Tumors indicate experimentation. No restraint marks. Volunteer. Sterile Weyrloc female willing to risk procedures. Hoped for cure. Pointless. Pointless waste of life. Shepard: I didn't expect you to be disturbed by the sight of a dead krogan. Mordin: (surprised at Shepard) What? Why? Because of genophage work? Irrelevant. No, causative. Never experimented on live krogan. Never killed with medicine. Her death not my work, only reaction to it. Goal was to stabilize population. Never wanted this. Can see it logically... but still unnecessary. Foolish waste of life. Hate to see it. Shepard: I didn't think you had much direct contact with things like this. Did you come to Tuchanka after dropping your plague? Mordin: Yearly recon missions. Water, tissue samples. Ensure no mistakes. Superiors offered to carry it on. Refused. Need to see it in person. Need to look. Need to see. Accept it as necessary. See small picture. Remind myself why I run a clinic on Omega. (gestures to dead krogan) Rest, young mother. Find your gods. Find someplace better. Shepard: I didn't expect spirituality from you, Mordin. Mordin: Genophage modification project altered millions of lives. Then saw results. Ego, humility, juxtaposition. Frailty of life. Size of universe. Explored religions after work was completed. Different races. No answers. Many questions. Shepard: Sounds like you were trying to deal with a guilty conscience. The doctor who killed millions. Mordin: Modified genophage project great in scope. Scientifically brilliant. But ethically difficult. Krogan reaction visceral, tragic. Not guilty, but responsible. Trained as doctor. Genophage affects fertility. Doesn't kill. Still (hesitates) ...caused this. Hard to see big picture behind pile of corpses. Shepard: Can you really just rationalize it all away? How do you justify it? Mordin: Wheel of life. Popular salarian concept. Similar to human Hinduism in focus on reincarnation. Appealing to see life as endless. Fix mistakes in next life. Learn, adapt, improve. Refuse to believe life ends here. Too wasteful. Have more to offer. Mistakes to fix. Cannot end here. Could do so much more. Shepard: If you need this much soul-searching to get over it, maybe the genophage was wrong. Mordin: Had to be done. Rachni Wars, Krogan Rebellions all pointed to krogan aggression. So many simulations. Effects of krogan population increase. All pointed to war, extinction. Genophage or genocide. Save galaxy from krogan. Save krogan from galaxy. Shepard: Look at the dead woman, Mordin. It doesn't look like you saved her. Mordin: No. It doesn't. Worked with available data. Only option. No other possible... Doesn't matter.
*
This has been an endless masturbatory circle jerk of a discussion with barely any substantial examples. I just went to ME2's imdb to find just a few of many good scenes (not ME3's because I'm still early in a replay, and haven't played since 2012 so don't want to spoil it all). Can anyone present dialogue from MEA that rivals this writing in depth and execution? I can't remember anything that reaches this level. Flannery O'Connor it is not, but for a video game, this is pretty damn amazing dialogue. I liked the game, I did. Eventually, once I realized that it wasn't going to be at all like the MET and just had fun with it. But MET--despite some bad lines, sure, and many platitudes (which Garrus calls you on, once in ME3)--was a series that at times provided dialogue and complexity of world building outside the league of any video game I have ever played. I maintain that MEA has strengths (beyond combat), but it is not its writing. I don't know what happened there, but I do know that writers of literary fiction and film struggle to make a living, and could have used work like this for $$... Prove me wrong? (Maybe something with Jaal I'm not remembering, our new species?)
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Post by suikoden on Jul 12, 2017 5:14:52 GMT
"Is this where I give a speech? Ask you to die for me? No thanks." - Ryder
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 5:15:04 GMT
MEA is also introducing us to the game world... and did so without the huge info dump conversations that people seem to think were actually conversations. Ryder has a lot more conversations with his crew and a lot more conversations with some of the side characters than Shepard ever got with anyone. Ryder even has more meaningful conversation with Akksul than Shepard ever had with, say, Dr. Saleon. Clicking on a button to ask something like tell me about your culture IS NOT an interaction. Asking those things did not have any effect on shaping Shepard`s personality or have an consequences for decisions. Clicking the button is a conversation pacifier. Making the NPCs more dimensional via using ambient dialogue with each other does NOT restrict the protagonist in any way, shape, or form... and there are ample conversations with dialogue choices in ME:A where the player can actually shape their protagonist... many, many more than there are in ME1. to be fair though there are moments like that in MEA where you talk to Evfra or governor shie. I'm not saying that there are no info dumps in ME:A... but it makes a lot more sense for Ryder to be inquiring about government and policy with a governor of a society he is trying to obtain permission for a number of people to live within than it did for Shepard to walk into an embassy after having met with his own human ambassador just next door and blurt out "What is this place? and then proceed to grill both the Volus and Elcor ambassadors about their history and culture for no other purpose than mere curiosity and crossing off the boxes that says, yeah, we covered government and economy for those races. This also, even though Shepard may have been born in space and regardless served for quite a time in the Alliance and probably should have already met a volus or an elcor somewhere along the way. Furthermore, such details are fleshed out in further interactions in ME:A... Take the vasaal, for example - We learn about it first from (as I recall) our conversation with Governor Shie... but then learn about how some Angaran are selling their slots to enable people from the Initiative to live on Aya and how that resulted in the death of the brother of an Angaran we meet. It provides us with a lot more context than and impact, as opposed to, say, learning that the volus government changes at lot. The volus style of government has absolutely no impact on anything any volus does within the entire Trilogy.
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