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Post by griffith82 on Jul 12, 2017 18:26:51 GMT
Counted 23 cringe moments in there for me. Andromeda cant seem to have scenes without its attempt at humour shoehorned in. Ruins it. How was any of that 'humorous'? Agreed what exactly is funny here?
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Post by VanSinn on Jul 12, 2017 18:38:45 GMT
I think trying to compare ME:A to the OT in terms of dialogue is perhaps missing the point slightly. The ME:A writers (and overall production of the game) intended it to have a lighter feel than the OT did. More Whedon-esque/Firefly than The Expanse, for example.
Now, you may prefer the style of the Expanse vs Firefly, and that's perfectly valid. But it's not a case of bad writing or bad writers. You may not like the style (and that's a perfectly valid opinion) but there were PLENTY of moments I found quite deep and connected with me on a profound emotional level.
The conversation with Drack in the medbay (previously cited here) is one of the more outstanding moments, but much of the ambient banter came through in such a way as well.
The main example I'm thinking of is a conversation between Liam and Jaal after the exaltation facility on Voeld, where we rescue the Moshae. Liam asks Jaal if he wants to talk about it, Jaal responds with something like "maybe, but...not now" and Liam finishes the dialogue with "Got it. Inane, pointless chatter coming up!"
Some people point to this as an example of bad writing. I say, if you think that's poor writing, you're missing the point. I'm a combat vet with PTSD, and there have been plenty of times my wife has started "inane, pointless" conversations to help me out of a particularly bad point. Someone at Bioware "gets it" from that perspective. It's a very simple thing, almost a throw-away line, but it's extremely poignant with deceptively deep meaning.
ME:A's dialogue is certainly not award winning fiction. It doesn't delve into the deeper, darker realms that the OT did. But for the tone of the game the writers intended, it fits. And there are some stellar moments, and some of 'em are so subtle that if you blink you'll miss 'em. I wonder how many people missed these moments, or simply didn't "get" them, and thus dismissed them.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 12, 2017 18:45:27 GMT
I think trying to compare ME:A to the OT in terms of dialogue is perhaps missing the point slightly. The ME:A writers (and overall production of the game) intended it to have a lighter feel than the OT did. More Whedon-esque/Firefly than The Expanse, for example. Now, you may prefer the style of the Expanse vs Firefly, and that's perfectly valid. But it's not a case of bad writing or bad writers. You may not like the style (and that's a perfectly valid opinion) but there were PLENTY of moments I found quite deep and connected with me on a profound emotional level. The conversation with Drack in the medbay (previously cited here) is one of the more outstanding moments, but much of the ambient banter came through in such a way as well. The main example I'm thinking of is a conversation between Liam and Jaal after the exaltation facility on Voeld, where we rescue the Moshae. Liam asks Jaal if he wants to talk about it, Jaal responds with something like "maybe, but...not now" and Liam finishes the dialogue with "Got it. Inane, pointless chatter coming up!" Some people point to this as an example of bad writing. I say, if you think that's poor writing, you're missing the point. I'm a combat vet with PTSD, and there have been plenty of times my wife has started "inane, pointless" conversations to help me out of a particularly bad point. Someone at Bioware "gets it" from that perspective. It's a very simple thing, almost a throw-away line, but it's extremely poignant with deceptively deep meaning. ME:A's dialogue is certainly not award winning fiction. It doesn't delve into the deeper, darker realms that the OT did. But for the tone of the game the writers intended, it fits. And there are some stellar moments, and some of 'em are so subtle that if you blink you'll miss 'em. I wonder how many people missed these moments, or simply didn't "get" them, and thus dismissed them. with this point and a similar point made about Cora i wonder if bioware has a veteran on their staff. Still just goes to show you how important diversity is to bioware. And its a perfect comment from Liam given his background. Whom is a Character I'm starting to really like.
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Post by abaris on Jul 12, 2017 19:00:57 GMT
The conversation with Drack in the medbay (previously cited here) is one of the more outstanding moments, but much of the ambient banter came through in such a way as well. As for me, it was the only outstanding moment. The whole Drack Kesh relationship is good. That's why I always exempt them from my criticism.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 12, 2017 19:06:37 GMT
The conversation with Drack in the medbay (previously cited here) is one of the more outstanding moments, but much of the ambient banter came through in such a way as well. As for me, it was the only outstanding moment. The whole Drack Kesh relationship is good. That's why I always exempt them from my criticism. I'm paraphrasing here but the conversation you hear through the door is gold. Kesh: "Now don't give the pathfinder too much trouble." Drack: " Don't give the pathfinder too much trouble. Oh Rushan."
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Post by malgus on Jul 16, 2017 18:39:19 GMT
As for me, it was the only outstanding moment. The whole Drack Kesh relationship is good. That's why I always exempt them from my criticism. I'm paraphrasing here but the conversation you hear through the door is gold. Kesh: "Now don't give the pathfinder too much trouble." Drack: " Don't give the pathfinder too much trouble. Oh Rushan." Indeed...
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Post by malgus on Jul 16, 2017 21:02:23 GMT
Plus MEA is not ME4 and not meant to be like MET at all, so anyone who compares them misses the point of this game. Well when we look at the first ME ,it was lighter than the second or the third, you always need a lighter start because if you go full dark at the beginning, it run at the risk of going full darkness induced audience apathy : tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathyWe all need to first get attach to the characters THEN go for more drama after the facts.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 16, 2017 21:17:58 GMT
Yeah i can see MEA 2 and 3 becoming much darker...and not just due to the audience complaints in MEA.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 16, 2017 21:19:16 GMT
I actually expect a divisive character like Liam to die to appease people who didn't like his character.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 16, 2017 21:20:33 GMT
I actually expect a divisive character like Liam to die to appease people who didn't like his character. hope not. I wonder who will be back in the sequel on the squad.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 16, 2017 23:08:36 GMT
Playing journey home now. God damn that space battle was amazing.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 16, 2017 23:11:34 GMT
Playing journey home now. God damn that space battle was amazing. Did you get all the Ryder secrets? You get 2 different versions of the scene depending on if you completed it or not. no shit? I did but I've never noticed a difference.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 17, 2017 0:38:36 GMT
Its often struck me as the same debate that the fandom has over Ryder and how special they are is in the game. The Archon too thinks Ryder is nothing but a SAM meat puppets.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 17, 2017 2:18:33 GMT
Its often struck me as the same debate that the fandom has over Ryder and how special they are is in the game. The Archon too thinks Ryder is nothing but a SAM meat puppets. With how much disrespect Ryder gets and the fact that SAM does almost everything, I never saw Ryder as special or a chosen one. They were chosen alright, to save someone special, but they are not special. They aren't special yet. And this goes into the other thing from the post ending that I noticed. Talked to SAM after the fact and his speech about how far Ryder came, and how they were both parts of a greater whole...I think most of us are missing the point. I have had that feeling for a while now but SAMs dialogue cristylized it. The intention, from Mac Walters perspective...always since Mass Effect 3...was to show how AI and 'organics' could come together as one. Just the problem is in ME 3 it came way out of left field because there was nothing in the previous gameplay to suggest that this was possible, or desirable. And that it looked like the entire Milky Way lost any sense of individuality. But MEA addresses both concerns. Ryder and SAM remain individuals, and seperate from the rest of the crew, but both of them together can achieve more then either of them can achieve seperatley. Which, I suppose is why this debate even exists in the first place because the line of where Ryder ends and SAM begins is now...hard to quantify, but at the end, rather pointess. They are now a hybrid, they are now in symbiosis. Ryder is special not because of SAM but their own efforts and SAM is not special because of Ryder but because of his own efforts, but together? They can be something truly remarkable.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 17, 2017 2:26:13 GMT
They aren't special yet. And this goes into the other thing from the post ending that I noticed. Talked to SAM after the fact and his speech about how far Ryder came, and how they were both parts of a greater whole...I think most of us are missing the point. I have had that feeling for a while now but SAMs dialogue cristylized it. The intention, from Mac Walters perspective...always since Mass Effect 3...was to show how AI and 'organics' could come together as one. Just the problem is in ME 3 it came way out of left field because there was nothing in the previous gameplay to suggest that this was possible, or desirable. And that it looked like the entire Milky Way lost any sense of individuality. But MEA addresses both concerns. Ryder and SAM remain individuals, and seperate from the rest of the crew, but both of them together can achieve more then either of them can achieve seperatley. Which, I suppose is why this debate even exists in the first place because the line of where Ryder ends and SAM begins is now...hard to quantify, but at the end, rather pointess. They are now a hybrid, they are now in symbiosis. Ryder is special not because of SAM but their own efforts and SAM is not special because of Ryder but because of his own efforts, but together? They can be something truly remarkable. That's a great way of explaining it! And I agree with what you said. I suspect SAM might eventually be removed like how the Inquisitor loses the Anchor, but only once Ryder's story is over. They could keep them together, but I feel this is not going to be permanent. interesting supposition
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Post by colfoley on Jul 17, 2017 2:31:44 GMT
Perhaps I kind of just wanna see one of the crew get exalted. Woudln't that be great for a DLC and to really raise the stakes. The way I figure it is I find it very likely that Peebee and Cora will stay with the Pathfinder and reurn for MEA2. Drack and Liam will be unlikely and they will move onto other positions. And I just cannot figure out Vetra and Jaal. Part of me says yes, part of me says no.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 17, 2017 2:33:23 GMT
Perhaps I kind of just wanna see one of the crew get exalted. Woudln't that be great for a DLC and to really raise the stakes. The way I figure it is I find it very likely that Peebee and Cora will stay with the Pathfinder and reurn for MEA2. Drack and Liam will be unlikely and they will move onto other positions. And I just cannot figure out Vetra and Jaal. Part of me says yes, part of me says no. Hmm only one I'd wish that on is Sloan or maybe Reyes.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 17, 2017 2:37:14 GMT
Perhaps I kind of just wanna see one of the crew get exalted. Woudln't that be great for a DLC and to really raise the stakes. The way I figure it is I find it very likely that Peebee and Cora will stay with the Pathfinder and reurn for MEA2. Drack and Liam will be unlikely and they will move onto other positions. And I just cannot figure out Vetra and Jaal. Part of me says yes, part of me says no. I think Jaal would be the likely one to be exalted. A romanced Jaal that becomes exalted would top losing Thane imo. He is the likely choice since the Kett have already figured out the Angara. I mean we don't know if they have even figured out humanity yet. But it would be just as much of a sucker unch, and perhaps a shock twist, to exalt one of the human crew.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 17, 2017 2:39:08 GMT
He is the likely choice since the Kett have already figured out the Angara. I mean we don't know if they have even figured out humanity yet. But it would be just as much of a sucker unch, and perhaps a shock twist, to exalt one of the human crew. They had come the closest with Krogan. Drack would be another likely target. That'd suck. I just admit I am just really curious to see what an exalted human looks like.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 17, 2017 2:41:49 GMT
That'd suck. I just admit I am just really curious to see what an exalted human looks like. I always felt the actual Kett were humans. The tall ones with human legs. That msg to the Benefactor from a Kett made me think that humans are already possibly part of the Kett. Its like that benefactor was not the Benefactor.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 17, 2017 2:45:59 GMT
Its like that benefactor was not the Benefactor. I bet the real one is exalted and this one is the same one but a Kett now lol ...Fuck I hadn't thought of that. I mean crap my most surprising thought and 'what a twist' would be the Benefactor is going to be someone on the Quarian Ark....but that idea would change everything.
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Post by obatalaryder on Jul 17, 2017 8:22:53 GMT
I'm just gonna say that the reveal that the Angara are a test tube species artifically created by this other sentient species, (making the Jardaan arguably the most highly advanced, most intellient species we've come across in the entire ME universe). blew my mind wide open. And I like thatthere was a very subtle foreshadowing towards their reveal such as the the fact that the Angara believe in reincarnation and that it's actaully embedded in their genetics. Or the rogue AI found on Voeld. How the Angara, a species capable of spaceflight, can't call back their own history past the Scourge. but just subtle enough you could never acutally guess, unless you thought really outside the box. I liked the themes of religion that were played with. From Suvi's questionaires to the Angara believing in religion, reincarnation, etc and gods I'm guessing. And how that their entire self identity is distorted by the fact they weren't created by a natural, biblical-like higher power that most religions would induce -- but were actually created by living, actual sentient people (or maybe an AI???). Basically artificial creationism. The Jardaan are basicallly creator gods. If God were a species, or an AI. it just adds so many subtle layers. If philosophically, the OT was about free will, fatalism, cosmicism, and sacrifice, ME:A is definitely gearing themes towards creationism and the question of creation. All the pinpoints OP layed out in his point basically reinvorgated the "mysteries of the galaxy" feeling of the OT. Nothing will beat Sovereign's revea;, but I find it disingenuous when people say there's no sense of wonder or novelty in ME:A. This game packed a lot of unsolved mysteries by the end of the game.
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Post by obatalaryder on Jul 17, 2017 8:28:22 GMT
Curious as to why people think the Kett are a re-hash.
They're a species that can ONLY surivive and evolve by "exalting" other species. They're not straight up villians, their reproduction process basically forces them to be galaxy-wide genetic fascists.
I find that VERY interesting.
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Post by Monica21 on Jul 17, 2017 12:10:04 GMT
I'm just gonna say that the reveal that the Angara are a test tube species artifically created by this other sentient species, (making the Jardaan arguably the most highly advanced, most intellient species we've come across in the entire ME universe). blew my mind wide open. And I like thatthere was a very subtle foreshadowing towards their reveal During my second playthrough I either read or heard something to the effect of the angara not having the "junk DNA" found in evolved species. It didn't even blip my radar the first time through, but the second time through was a different story.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 14:56:05 GMT
The one thing that I can take away from this thread after reading a lot of pro and anti ME:A comments is that the writing isn't actually bad, but extremely divisive. People are saying it is bad because it isn't what they wanted and those who call it the other way found exactly what they were looking for. It seems to me that the figurative line in the sand between the 2 sides is the tone of ME:A. Some (like me) really enjoy the lighthearted and foolhardy tone, especially after the depressive mess that left the universe in shambles that was ME3. Others want more of the dark themes and seriousness of the OT with more haste and a much more impending threat (which I, imo, think wouldn't fit the premise of ME:A whatsoever.) 'Grats on created a thread that garnered more than "ME:A IS A DUMPSTER FIRE!!1" type remarks, colfoley!
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