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Post by linksocarina on Sept 25, 2016 22:28:53 GMT
DAO and DA2 had radial menus, so no it's not the fault of consoles no matter how much you want it to be. I don't think I have seen a radial menu that can implement the number of spells/items an extended hotbar DA:O style can contain. Can a radial menu have 20-30 skills and items in it? I find it very hard to believe. It was probably a combination between the incessant desire to "streamline" everything, and to make it easier to play with a controller. Basic menu was six abilities/spells for the quick menu. The raidal menu was more or less based on twelve slots for consoles. There was rarely a need to go to twelve slots though because many abilities and sustains were situational at best, or never used at worst, especially in Origins and it's poor implementation of ability progression.
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Post by Adhin on Sept 25, 2016 23:19:04 GMT
Yeah, on console you basically left and sustained or overly situational stuff in the radial and left all the in the moment good stuff in your hotkeys. I was happy to see the 4/8 buttons this time around but bummed to find out we had no skills in the radial this time.
Still semi-bummed by that, I think it's pretty bad mechanic for any RPG. Then again they also got rid of any form of sustained ability which is also a bummer. Anything that would of been a sustained and is still around is now a massive resource hog that makes it a hindrance to use.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 26, 2016 2:22:58 GMT
Because apparently, in order to learn how to throw poisoned blades, my rogue needs to strike himself on the head repeatedly until he forgets how to parry a blow, or perform a flank attack, or throw a knockout bomb, or... You get the idea. My characters in DAO and DA2 didn't stop knowing how to do something just because they learned how to do something else. I don't get the idea at all actually. You're Rogue doesn't forget how to do any of that, instead it tries other moves for a time before switching back to something else. If you mean you should have access to all your moves at all times...sure ok. But that's only a "gamey" decision for the sake of balance of the new mechanics, over anything else. That's not a bad thing necessarily either. If you're a rogue in DAI (or a warrion or a mage) , you do forget how to do it. FOr a time, anyway. Since if you want to do someting in a fight and you have no button for it, you physically cannot do that action. Even if you want to fall back on old tried and true techniques. Yes you should have access to all your moves at all times unless they require a piece of equipment you do not have. Taking that away feels extremely artificial and "gamey"
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 26, 2016 2:45:12 GMT
DAO and DA2 had radial menus, so no it's not the fault of consoles no matter how much you want it to be. I don't think I have seen a radial menu that can implement the number of spells/items an extended hotbar DA:O style can contain. Can a radial menu have 20-30 skills and items in it? I find it very hard to believe. It was probably a combination between the incessant desire to "streamline" everything, and to make it easier to play with a controller.
Unfortunately, I believe you are correct. This implies that all future DA / Magic games will be designed around the console controller limitations. I still think Bio can get around this by implementing a working tactical script or have two versions of the game, each adapted to the target platform. The latter will generate its own controversy, I'm sure.
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Post by Adhin on Sept 26, 2016 2:58:04 GMT
I don't get why you guys think a radial menu can't handle that amount of stuff. It's like your all blind as shit to history. Lets just ignore, DAO and DA2 in it's entirety that HAD a radial menu that allowed for all of those abilities. I mean I know DAI is in the same series but fuck it lets ignore that shit.
Lets go back further, Neverwinter Nights. It has FAR more shit then ANY of the Dragon Age games and ALL of it was accessed via a radial goddamn menu. They had a hotkey bar that with Shift/CTRL allowed for 36 hotkeys and you still needed the radial menu for some shit. And that radial menu was tied to exactly 8 directions so you could use the numb-pad unlike DA titles that allowed for more then 8 in the wheel (or can).
So yeah a radial menu can handle more then 20-30 things. Yeah a controller can use a radial menu just fine even if PC doesn't want to use one (and shouldn't have to use one). But yall gadda stop jacking off over your bias. It's worked in the past, they got rid of it which I'm sure was because they felt the radial menu didn't work well (there wrong, fuck em for taking it away) and wanted some parity bullshit.
I disagree with the choice either way, but a radial menu 'can' handle it. It's all bullshit, Bullshit I tells ya.
edit: pretty sure this post comes off as more angry then I intend it to, so take it with a bit of humor like I meant it. Srsly though it works, and bioware is silly for going away from it, and yall are silly for pretending the past never happened.
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 26, 2016 15:10:10 GMT
I don't get the idea at all actually. You're Rogue doesn't forget how to do any of that, instead it tries other moves for a time before switching back to something else. If you mean you should have access to all your moves at all times...sure ok. But that's only a "gamey" decision for the sake of balance of the new mechanics, over anything else. That's not a bad thing necessarily either. If you're a rogue in DAI (or a warrion or a mage) , you do forget how to do it. FOr a time, anyway. Since if you want to do someting in a fight and you have no button for it, you physically cannot do that action. Even if you want to fall back on old tried and true techniques. Yes you should have access to all your moves at all times unless they require a piece of equipment you do not have. Taking that away feels extremely artificial and "gamey" Well, so were the progression lines of skills found in Origins and and the Skill trees in general in Dragon Age II. Honestly, that sort of mechanic I expect in a video game, RPG or not. Hell, it happens in RPGs a lot in different forms. Point is, having full access to all your moves or not is just part of the whole design. If you don't like it fine, but it's an odd hill to stick your flag on.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 26, 2016 15:35:25 GMT
I don't get why you guys think a radial menu can't handle that amount of stuff. Snip
It's not that the radial menu can't handle it. It's an EA philosophy to make games easier to learn (link was posted in the old BSN). That premise automatically excludes complexity and DA:I certainly followed that corporate directive.
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Post by Adhin on Sept 26, 2016 15:46:33 GMT
I don't get why you guys think a radial menu can't handle that amount of stuff. Snip
It's not that the radial menu can't handle it. It's an EA philosophy to make games easier to learn (link was posted in the old BSN). That premise automatically excludes complexity and DA:I certainly followed that corporate directive.
Yeah I agree with that, I have no doubt that's why they did it. People just have been literally stating the 'radial menu can't do it' which seems silly considering BioWares past of doing just that. You know, it's funny but if BioWare had stuck to the old style of auto-attacking from past games instead of requiring holding down a button they could of used RT this time as a secondary hotkey swap and gotten 12 hotkeys on controller lol. It's like the one time they get more efficient with how they map keys and they limit other things anyway. Ahh well, I personally am hoping MEA allows for more then 3 bound skills on console. I know they could do it with the bumpers, I just hope they actually do it.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 26, 2016 16:13:37 GMT
If you're a rogue in DAI (or a warrion or a mage) , you do forget how to do it. FOr a time, anyway. Since if you want to do someting in a fight and you have no button for it, you physically cannot do that action. Even if you want to fall back on old tried and true techniques. Yes you should have access to all your moves at all times unless they require a piece of equipment you do not have. Taking that away feels extremely artificial and "gamey" Well, so were the progression lines of skills found in Origins and and the Skill trees in general in Dragon Age II. Honestly, that sort of mechanic I expect in a video game, RPG or not. Hell, it happens in RPGs a lot in different forms. Point is, having full access to all your moves or not is just part of the whole design. If you don't like it fine, but it's an odd hill to stick your flag on. It's my hill. I draw a distinction between learning new moves as you gain experience and become a more effective warrior/rogue/mage. But to forget what you have already learned just because you learned something else?
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Post by FireAndBlood on Sept 26, 2016 16:58:12 GMT
It's not that the radial menu can't handle it. It's an EA philosophy to make games easier to learn (link was posted in the old BSN). That premise automatically excludes complexity and DA:I certainly followed that corporate directive.
Yeah I agree with that, I have no doubt that's why they did it. People just have been literally stating the 'radial menu can't do it' which seems silly considering BioWares past of doing just that. You know, it's funny but if BioWare had stuck to the old style of auto-attacking from past games instead of requiring holding down a button they could of used RT this time as a secondary hotkey swap and gotten 12 hotkeys on controller lol. It's like the one time they get more efficient with how they map keys and they limit other things anyway. Ahh well, I personally am hoping MEA allows for more then 3 bound skills on console. I know they could do it with the bumpers, I just hope they actually do it. It has nothing to do with making the game easier to learn, it has all to do with creating artificial difficulty. They already did this by eliminating the ability to heal and limiting the number of potions you can carry, though in my opinion those two changes improved the game. The cynic in me also thinks they limited us to 8 abilities to cover up how little ability trees we have.
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Post by FireAndBlood on Sept 26, 2016 19:50:04 GMT
That said, I still find it likely that consoles influenced this decision, if not by "virtue" of technical limitation, than due to ease of access for people who are used to playing on console and never (or very rarely) have to deal with managing large number of abilities. Then please explain the first two games.
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 26, 2016 20:19:46 GMT
Well, so were the progression lines of skills found in Origins and and the Skill trees in general in Dragon Age II. Honestly, that sort of mechanic I expect in a video game, RPG or not. Hell, it happens in RPGs a lot in different forms. Point is, having full access to all your moves or not is just part of the whole design. If you don't like it fine, but it's an odd hill to stick your flag on. It's my hill. I draw a distinction between learning new moves as you gain experience and become a more effective warrior/rogue/mage. But to forget what you have already learned just because you learned something else? So you never liked playing Wizards in Dungeons and Dragons? Or a lot of classes that use magical powers in the same vein? I kind of saw Inquisition as that mentality for abilities, the pick and choose to plan ahead motif.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 26, 2016 20:50:34 GMT
It's my hill. I draw a distinction between learning new moves as you gain experience and become a more effective warrior/rogue/mage. But to forget what you have already learned just because you learned something else? So you never liked playing Wizards in Dungeons and Dragons? Or a lot of classes that use magical powers in the same vein? I kind of saw Inquisition as that mentality for abilities, the pick and choose to plan ahead motif. Not really. I preferred sorcerers.
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 26, 2016 21:21:56 GMT
So you never liked playing Wizards in Dungeons and Dragons? Or a lot of classes that use magical powers in the same vein? I kind of saw Inquisition as that mentality for abilities, the pick and choose to plan ahead motif. Not really. I preferred sorcerers. Fair enough on that then.
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Post by FireAndBlood on Sept 27, 2016 0:17:11 GMT
Most likely a change in focus, hoping to get more console players. (the "press A for Awesome" marketing in DA:2 was probably intended in this direction as well) Wow, you are really determined to blame consoles for everything that's wrong with DAI.
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Post by Addictress on Sept 27, 2016 4:48:45 GMT
On the topic of in world justification for leaving to Andromeda: I think it'll have to be based on when the milky way denizens make their departure. If its after the Reaper war, that makes things difficult due to the endings but at the same time it could be something that is eventually achieved and even desired if people really want to escape the legacy of Reaper influence that was scattered around the galaxy. I have a hard time accepting this premise if we end up leaving during the Reaper war. Its baffling to me, to have the shadow of ME3 looming behind us when the stakes are already so high. And then have everyone just be nice and calm about Andromeda without spending half their character arcs worrying about their home galaxy. It would shock my sensibilities if done so. Leaving before ME3 could be somewhat feasible (Not necessarily from a technological point though). But, with Reapers not yet publicly recognized, there wouldn't be the pressure of the war to dictate where every galactic resource goes. Gah, the more I think, the more I want them to just make it after ME3 and gloss over the endings nonsense as superfluous fluff solely for Shepard's journey, rather than an authentic continuation of where Mass Effect was headed. Well it's before ME3. We know that pretty clearly. They've said it doesn't take any endings from ME3 into account and from the scenes we saw of prior to launch there was no Reaper invasion at Earth. So regardless if you'd like this to be some kinda reboot that still doesn't take place in the Milky Way it's gonna happen prior to ME3 and still be a psuedo-reboot. I think this was discussed in another thread (it's getting a little murky at this point) theres something like a 2 and a half year gap between ME1 ending and ME3 start. So we have about a 2 year-ish window for them to 'do' this project. And one could point to the Keepers issue (in ME2) as the catalyst that got the project finished and resulted in it's public debut and eventual launch. Sure new tech would have to be devised for it but 2 years you would assume in a world like Mass Effect would be enough time to figure out how to deal with the static build up. Add to all that it's been made semi-clear that the Council, and definitely Anderson/Admiral Hackett definitely believe Shepard about the Reapers it makes sense how the project could get started in the first place. As far as it being public knowledge of it's existence, I figure going under the guise it's 'for science' makes enough sense. Think of the Moon landing. There was basically 2 reasons we landed on the Moon. The Cold War and 'because science', or well, because humans like to try to do things that're hard for the sake of advancement. And as far as I'm concerned, the ARK Project fits that bill pretty well. Secret government reasoning with a different public face. If there 'is' no public face to it, and it's literally just 'The Reapers are coming ohmergerd guys' then I'll be a bit disappointed. Considering every government, including the Council, publicly was saying other shit since telling everyone the Galaxy was going to end on 1 guys word isn't really feasible. Wow I really like the idea that the public face is 'for science' or something else but the wealthy organizations behind the project (whoever they may be) secretly believed Shepard - a departure in opinion from the galactic Council and hence whoever heads the funding organizations had to construct an alternative public face.
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Post by bshep on Sept 27, 2016 6:45:33 GMT
I find that hard to believe. If it was true, then the situation wouldn't have been so bad when ME3 started:
Batarian hegemony decimated, Systems Alliance almost following the same destiny, Turian Hierarchy being beaten in their own star system all that while the Salarian Union and the Asari Republics tried to hide inside their borders and the Quarian Fleet started a war against the Geth.
No one really had a plan and it was pretty much every race for themselves before Shepard handled the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 7:15:58 GMT
my fear now is that Bioware is a literal shadow of its former self. Can they do good games anymore? Will they be allowed to? Will they be consumed by their overlords?
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Post by Adhin on Sept 27, 2016 9:40:14 GMT
I find that hard to believe. If it was true, then the situation wouldn't have been so bad when ME3 started: Batarian hegemony decimated, Systems Alliance almost following the same destiny, Turian Hierarchy being beaten in their own star system all that while the Salarian Union and the Asari Republics tried to hide inside their borders and the Quarian Fleet started a war against the Geth. No one really had a plan and it was pretty much every race for themselves before Shepard handled the situation. Ehh sorta? I mean, Anderson and Hackett believing Shepard isn't enough for the Alliance side. That's 2 people that ultimately don't run things that need other top people to tell them they can do stuff. The Council believing us doesn't do much either as none of them run, or have any major sway (for the most part) with any specific government. So while they might believe Shepard, that doesn't mean the Turian Hierarchy or Salarians, or even the Asari as a whole believe or know or any of that. Quarians are absurdly easy to dismiss anything if it meant getting back their homeworld. And Batarians... really? They don't have anything to do with anything but hate and terrorism, they sure as shit wont believe Shepard or ANYONE about ANYTHING. They where originally the main badguy prior to the whole 'lets make it a trilogy, yeah Reapers and Geth'... still kept the dickface Batarians around though heh. I can understand the ARK project getting started due to the Reaper invasion but like I said in another post masked under the guise of for science. People behind it I'm sure believe Shepard, but to get funding/backing and to recruit people they'd have a much different 'reason' then run from Reapers.
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Post by helios969 on Sept 27, 2016 10:14:25 GMT
Well, it's nice they are (finally) acknowledging how god-awful those DAI sidequests were (of course there was plenty wrong with the main story as well). The question remains whether they understand how to fix them. They need to be triggered via actual cutscene conversations for starters, but additionally need to have visual impact with lingering consequences...some of which come back to help or haunt you later in the game. Having more of the side content loosely intertwined with the main story can help agency, as well as quest chains with branching outcomes. I know none of this is trivial, but as long as they make a concerted effort to make this stuff better and the pros outweigh the cons I'll acknowledge the effort and largely be happy.
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fireandblood
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by FireAndBlood on Sept 27, 2016 10:41:55 GMT
my fear now is that Bioware is a literal shadow of its former self. Can they do good games anymore? Will they be allowed to? Will they be consumed by their overlords? Oh for fucks sake, Bioware was bought out by EA because they were on the verge of bankruptcy. Since they were bought out nine years ago they were increased to three different studios working on four different IPs, possibly five. And also someone should tell these dumb asses EA never bought Lucas Arts, it was Disney who shut them down.
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Adhin
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Adhin
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Adhin on Sept 27, 2016 11:13:06 GMT
Oh for fucks sake, Bioware was bought out by EA because they were on the verge of bankruptcy. Since they were bought out nine years ago they were increased to three different studios working on four different IPs, possibly five. And also someone should tell these dumb asses EA never bought Lucas Arts, it was Disney who shut them down. LOL Yeah, I was gonna say that. Least the Lucas Arts thing. That whole video wasn't very ehh 'tells the truth' as more 'idiot fans don't understand things'. People leave companys for all manner of reasons. Sometimes its just cause they want a change, sometimes its cause there old and want a retirement of some kind (even if that's more of a 'less work, but still working' thing).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 11:16:19 GMT
Gosh it's satire, it clearly states it's satire.
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FireAndBlood
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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FireAndBlood
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fireandblood
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Post by FireAndBlood on Sept 27, 2016 11:24:07 GMT
Gosh it's satire, it clearly states it's satire. ....ok so I might might have rage quit after the Lucas Arts bit.
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Post by ClarkKent on Sept 27, 2016 12:23:02 GMT
So it turns out placing shallow MMO quests with no cutscenes or character development as 80% of the content of your singleplayer choice based rpg is a bad idea? I'm shocked Mr Flynn. Shocked.
And an rpg with no proper city hub? What were you even thinking Bioware.
It's not like Bioware has had twenty years of experience in the industry to learn this or anything.
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