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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 19, 2017 20:15:51 GMT
Well I mean sure, you could go all "Slippery-slope" argument saying that listing gender customization means also listing that there's graphics and movement capabilities and a save feature, but in reality we know that the option to choose gender is an important thing for a not-small subset of the population. The gaming industry has been trying to reach out to an untapped, unmarketed-to customer base (women). I agree, not all features need to be spelled out. However there were people who played ME1 and had no idea that they could play as a female, and the fact people didn't know that stopped some women from purchasing the game. This is an issue that has been stated by female gamers. That's why games like Dishonored 2 made it super obvious you could play as Corvo or Emily. It attracts a significant group that prefers games where they can choose their gender. Anecdotal. I'm glad you brought up Dishonored 2 though, one because I love that game, and two because I was wondering if someone would, despite the fact that it's an entirely different thing altogether. Dishonored 2 doesn't have a customizable protagonist. Dishonored 2 has dual protagonists. That is not a common feature in games, nor is it part of a definition for a genre of games. In other words it's a (all together now) unique selling point. Dishonored 2 was not marketed as "play as a man or woman", it was marketed as "play as Corvo or Emily, two different characters with different powers, responses and styles of play" From Steam: The devs always envisioned it as Emily's story, and the decision to include Corvo came later. They didn't set out to tick any boxes (or go out of their way to point out that they did), they envisioned a story, they made a game and went to market with it. And apart from bugs at launch (which seems to be a disturbingly common norm these days) it was excellent. To apply what you're asking for to Dishonored 2 would be to say something like "they should totally include the Shadow Walk power in the description! I love turning into a smoke monster and would definitely buy any game that lets me do that!" I mean, yeah, it's true it would help you (and people who are fans of turning into shadow monsters) make that decision to buy. But is that really feasible from the company's perspective? Not really. Wanna know how I got into Dishonored? Dicking around in G-Mod one day I downloaded a Blink swep that emulated that power from the game. And I thought, well I love me some teleporting and playing with this in G-Mod is pretty fun. Might as well check out the game. Now, should I insist all future Dishonored games explicitly include Blinking in their game descriptions? Surely not. And note I specified "game descriptions" (which is what this thread is about). But that's not the only (or even the most effective) marketing tool, is it? You have trailers and demos and reviews and word of mouth. Sure maybe Mass Effect doesn't explicitly say you can play as female on its Amazon page, or Steam or Origin or whatever. But who doesn't know that by now, through endless gameplay videos, reviews, trailers, stills etc? Starving children in Africa probably know of FemShep. She's a few steps below Batman and Spiderman's origin stories. I applaud their decision to include the female PC in trailers, and yeah they need to do more of that, any RPG with customizable characters does. But this thread here? Mountain out of a molehill, from where I sit, especially if someone argues something different. Well I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Games advertise the aspects of their game that will draw the largest audience and what unique unique features will differentiate themselves from the crowd, I agree. In the example of "You can use the Shadow Walk power!", that's a pretty niche group that would buy the game based on just that description. However, for a growing numbers of female gamers, a much larger group that the number of people who would be interested in the singular power of "Shadow Walk", being able to play as a female character is a huge draw to buy a game. You can spin playing as Emily or Corvo as not being choosing gender, but just choosing a different character or a different power-set (which is true), but for the ever-growing customer base of female gamers, seeing that they can play as Emily is a draw in and of itself. I'm not arguing that Bioware is sexist or that it was a horrible marketing decision that cost them millions of players to not specifically say that you can play as Sara or Scott, female or male, on their Amazon description. But to say that it wouldn't be better to make it extra-clear to people who, when the game came out had only seen the Scott TV trailer (since the Sara one didn't air for several weeks post-launch) wouldn't be able to tell you could play as Sara is just kind of... odd. Remember, not all people who are going to buy a game follow all the news and VGA trailers and everything for the game. Some just see an advertisement on TV or Hulu or whatever, and think "Oh, that looks cool. Maybe I'll play that." But you seem to think that knowledge of swapable genders should be intrinsic in gamers due to the genre, but I would think that the examples of other games showcasing this ability (FO4 being a good example) that it would seem that other companies think this is a good thing as well.
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Post by thelonelypoet on Jul 20, 2017 5:52:26 GMT
Eh. If you ask me, I would say the BioWare should showcase all of the improvements that they have made and let us all know what exactly they will improve going forward. That, and after the game is patched to perfection, tease and release DLC. That would not only bring back people who were jaded by ME:A's state at release, but also breath new life into the game as well. Those kinda things ring as far more important to gamers than pandering to specific sexes. What about doing all? In my opinion picking a gender is a heavy reason to play a game. Tell about the patches, hint DLC, tell of the opportunityes.
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Post by thelonelypoet on Jul 20, 2017 6:27:28 GMT
Did you not read all the posts from people saying that no, they did not realize they could customize the protagonist's gender? I personally read part of the wikipedia entries for these games (and all RPGs) in order to find out whether I can customize my protagonist, including gender, as I was deciding which games to buy. I mean, when I first bought DAO, I kind of figured that I'd get to choose some things about my character since I'd played NWN years before, but I still had to search a bit for the information to make sure. I don't see how it could possibly be harmful to make sure the game's official description is clear about this. I did indeed. Which is why I posted my skepticism. To me, character customization includes choosing the sex of the character implictly and irrevocably, and it did long before I had any relevant RPG experience to speak of. Can you think of a single player game with fully customizable PCs that doesn't have this option? I don't mean only customizing their costume/accessories, which is more the realm of multiplayer anyway. Any game I can think of that has a character creator has you pick whether you're playing as male or female. It's as much a part of the process as picking hair style, or eye color. I will agree that the description in the OP is a little vague in that respect. "Customization systems" could be anything. If they called the Pathfinder a fully customizable hero, leader of the expedition etc etc. that'd be much clearer. Yes, I can remember. Rpg game Fable 1 lets you customize your character but not let you decide the gender. You started as a male.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 15:42:17 GMT
Eh. If you ask me, I would say the BioWare should showcase all of the improvements that they have made and let us all know what exactly they will improve going forward. That, and after the game is patched to perfection, tease and release DLC. That would not only bring back people who were jaded by ME:A's state at release, but also breath new life into the game as well. Those kinda things ring as far more important to gamers than pandering to specific sexes. What about doing all? In my opinion picking a gender is a heavy reason to play a game. Tell about the patches, hint DLC, tell of the opportunityes. No consensus will be formed as, imo, selectable gender couldn't possibly be lower on my list of "things important in video games."
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jul 20, 2017 16:39:17 GMT
I don't know that many video games, and trying to google "customizable characters" in video games is not very rewarding. Once you find a list it is onerous to determine which can be played as a female. www.giantbomb.com/customizable-characters/3015-155/games/Game descriptions are vague in both directions. In some with gender customization options "customizing your character" isn't even mentioned. www.amazon.com/Fallout-4-PC/dp/B00YQ2MM2M?th=1Well, if you want data with large numbers of people, take the article in the OP: In a survey of 270,000 gamers, DAI outperformed other western RPGs among women (48% of players mentioning having played DAI were female vs. 26% women for other western RPGs). The other western RPGs included Mass Effect 3, Skyrim and FO4, which have gender customizable characters but do not say so in their online descriptions, and TW3. DAI does say explicitly that the Inquisitor can be male or female: www.amazon.com/Dragon-Age-Inquisition-Standard-PlayStation-4/dp/B00JUFT1F6/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1500488621&sr=1-1&keywords=dragon%2Bage%2Binquisition&th=1From Origin: "The people of Thedas need a hero – that's where you come in, Inquisitor. But before you can begin your adventure, you need to forge your champion with Dragon Age: Inquisition's deep character creation tools. Choose your gender, pick a class, and decide the Inquisitor's race." What do you think accounts for the disproportionate numbers of women playing DAI versus the other games if not the advertising? Yeah, not sure about that list (it includes something called Everybody's Golf). Try TVTropes: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterCustomizationI didn't go through everything but as expected, every entry under RPGs and MMOs has options for male/female. Fighting games seem to feature this more and more as well. Hell even a Sonic game has it now. As to your second point, you're conflating the articles together to make a point neither of them make- (DAI outselling other RPGs and rising female gamer stats). The former being due to the latter is not self-evident. And there's a lot more to consider than numbers to consider too. The stats article mentions motivations- female gamers are apparently motivated by completion and fantasy. I don't know DAI but I recall plenty of grumbling over its grind. And fantasy it has in spades. So without further data and analysis it could just as easily be true that the higher percentage of female gamers into DAI are there because the game as a whole meets their alleged "primary motivations", and not because some description somewhere spells out "you can be a chick" Well I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Games advertise the aspects of their game that will draw the largest audience and what unique unique features will differentiate themselves from the crowd, I agree. In the example of "You can use the Shadow Walk power!", that's a pretty niche group that would buy the game based on just that description. However, for a growing numbers of female gamers, a much larger group that the number of people who would be interested in the singular power of "Shadow Walk", being able to play as a female character is a huge draw to buy a game. You can spin playing as Emily or Corvo as not being choosing gender, but just choosing a different character or a different power-set (which is true), but for the ever-growing customer base of female gamers, seeing that they can play as Emily is a draw in and of itself. I'm not arguing that Bioware is sexist or that it was a horrible marketing decision that cost them millions of players to not specifically say that you can play as Sara or Scott, female or male, on their Amazon description. But to say that it wouldn't be better to make it extra-clear to people who, when the game came out had only seen the Scott TV trailer (since the Sara one didn't air for several weeks post-launch) wouldn't be able to tell you could play as Sara is just kind of... odd. Remember, not all people who are going to buy a game follow all the news and VGA trailers and everything for the game. Some just see an advertisement on TV or Hulu or whatever, and think "Oh, that looks cool. Maybe I'll play that." But you seem to think that knowledge of swapable genders should be intrinsic in gamers due to the genre, but I would think that the examples of other games showcasing this ability (FO4 being a good example) that it would seem that other companies think this is a good thing as well. I'm not spinning anything, it was advertised as "play as character x or y". But neither am I denying that this quite obviously did result in a choice of gender. My point was, this was a unique selling point and not a function of the type of game Dishonored is. So it was rightfully advertised as such. Character customization is a staple of RPGs (at least Western RPGs) and the option to make a male or female character is intrinsic to that. If you have one, you naturally have the other. So it is not necessary to specify that in a description. That is not the same as saying it shouldn't be mentioned, ever. It would, and should come to light naturally by the act of showcasing the game via trailers, promotional images, reviews etc. Nor is it necessary for someone to "follow" the game's hype to come across this. I haven't "followed" a game's release in my life, short of being on here before ME3 and MEA hit. But neither do I recall buying a game based on a Steam or Amazon description alone. But yeah, I think we do need to agree to disagree. I've said my piece, anyone can take or leave it, based on how compelling or not they find the argument. Yes, I can remember. Rpg game Fable 1 lets you customize your character but not let you decide the gender. You started as a male. Huh. Seems a little different. You can customize looks in terms of hairstyle and such but overall appearance seems to be determined based on stats and alignment. Apart from cosmetics, you don't "customize" per se, it's determined dynamically based on your choices. So basically the renegade scars taken up to eleven. I'd count this as an outlier, or an exception, but perhaps I'll amend my statement to "full character customization and creation". I suppose there'd be a way to subvert that still, but I don't think it's likely to be counted on as the rule in the current climate. It still seems to me like you'd need to go out of your way to provide a custom character creator and not offer both male and female choices. Not to mention the backlash you'd get these days for something like that.
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Post by thelonelypoet on Jul 22, 2017 21:46:06 GMT
What about doing all? In my opinion picking a gender is a heavy reason to play a game. Tell about the patches, hint DLC, tell of the opportunityes. No consensus will be formed as, imo, selectable gender couldn't possibly be lower on my list of "things important in video games." Maybe you should play female characters then. (Don't want to pick a fight: people who already has the choice to play as their gender tend to forget that we female gamers usually experience our games trough male lenses - for example Witcher, GTA and Zelda just to mention a couple - and then a female protagonist starts to climb up in that "important list". But it is getting better now though. :-) )
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Post by thelonelypoet on Jul 22, 2017 21:55:05 GMT
I don't know that many video games, and trying to google "customizable characters" in video games is not very rewarding. Once you find a list it is onerous to determine which can be played as a female. www.giantbomb.com/customizable-characters/3015-155/games/Game descriptions are vague in both directions. In some with gender customization options "customizing your character" isn't even mentioned. www.amazon.com/Fallout-4-PC/dp/B00YQ2MM2M?th=1Well, if you want data with large numbers of people, take the article in the OP: In a survey of 270,000 gamers, DAI outperformed other western RPGs among women (48% of players mentioning having played DAI were female vs. 26% women for other western RPGs). The other western RPGs included Mass Effect 3, Skyrim and FO4, which have gender customizable characters but do not say so in their online descriptions, and TW3. DAI does say explicitly that the Inquisitor can be male or female: www.amazon.com/Dragon-Age-Inquisition-Standard-PlayStation-4/dp/B00JUFT1F6/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1500488621&sr=1-1&keywords=dragon%2Bage%2Binquisition&th=1From Origin: "The people of Thedas need a hero – that's where you come in, Inquisitor. But before you can begin your adventure, you need to forge your champion with Dragon Age: Inquisition's deep character creation tools. Choose your gender, pick a class, and decide the Inquisitor's race." What do you think accounts for the disproportionate numbers of women playing DAI versus the other games if not the advertising? Yeah, not sure about that list (it includes something called Everybody's Golf). Try TVTropes: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterCustomizationI didn't go through everything but as expected, every entry under RPGs and MMOs has options for male/female. Fighting games seem to feature this more and more as well. Hell even a Sonic game has it now. As to your second point, you're conflating the articles together to make a point neither of them make- (DAI outselling other RPGs and rising female gamer stats). The former being due to the latter is not self-evident. And there's a lot more to consider than numbers to consider too. The stats article mentions motivations- female gamers are apparently motivated by completion and fantasy. I don't know DAI but I recall plenty of grumbling over its grind. And fantasy it has in spades. So without further data and analysis it could just as easily be true that the higher percentage of female gamers into DAI are there because the game as a whole meets their alleged "primary motivations", and not because some description somewhere spells out "you can be a chick" Well I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Games advertise the aspects of their game that will draw the largest audience and what unique unique features will differentiate themselves from the crowd, I agree. In the example of "You can use the Shadow Walk power!", that's a pretty niche group that would buy the game based on just that description. However, for a growing numbers of female gamers, a much larger group that the number of people who would be interested in the singular power of "Shadow Walk", being able to play as a female character is a huge draw to buy a game. You can spin playing as Emily or Corvo as not being choosing gender, but just choosing a different character or a different power-set (which is true), but for the ever-growing customer base of female gamers, seeing that they can play as Emily is a draw in and of itself. I'm not arguing that Bioware is sexist or that it was a horrible marketing decision that cost them millions of players to not specifically say that you can play as Sara or Scott, female or male, on their Amazon description. But to say that it wouldn't be better to make it extra-clear to people who, when the game came out had only seen the Scott TV trailer (since the Sara one didn't air for several weeks post-launch) wouldn't be able to tell you could play as Sara is just kind of... odd. Remember, not all people who are going to buy a game follow all the news and VGA trailers and everything for the game. Some just see an advertisement on TV or Hulu or whatever, and think "Oh, that looks cool. Maybe I'll play that." But you seem to think that knowledge of swapable genders should be intrinsic in gamers due to the genre, but I would think that the examples of other games showcasing this ability (FO4 being a good example) that it would seem that other companies think this is a good thing as well. I'm not spinning anything, it was advertised as "play as character x or y". But neither am I denying that this quite obviously did result in a choice of gender. My point was, this was a unique selling point and not a function of the type of game Dishonored is. So it was rightfully advertised as such. Character customization is a staple of RPGs (at least Western RPGs) and the option to make a male or female character is intrinsic to that. If you have one, you naturally have the other. So it is not necessary to specify that in a description. That is not the same as saying it shouldn't be mentioned, ever. It would, and should come to light naturally by the act of showcasing the game via trailers, promotional images, reviews etc. Nor is it necessary for someone to "follow" the game's hype to come across this. I haven't "followed" a game's release in my life, short of being on here before ME3 and MEA hit. But neither do I recall buying a game based on a Steam or Amazon description alone. But yeah, I think we do need to agree to disagree. I've said my piece, anyone can take or leave it, based on how compelling or not they find the argument. Yes, I can remember. Rpg game Fable 1 lets you customize your character but not let you decide the gender. You started as a male. Huh. Seems a little different. You can customize looks in terms of hairstyle and such but overall appearance seems to be determined based on stats and alignment. Apart from cosmetics, you don't "customize" per se, it's determined dynamically based on your choices. So basically the renegade scars taken up to eleven. I'd count this as an outlier, or an exception, but perhaps I'll amend my statement to "full character customization and creation". I suppose there'd be a way to subvert that still, but I don't think it's likely to be counted on as the rule in the current climate. It still seems to me like you'd need to go out of your way to provide a custom character creator and not offer both male and female choices. Not to mention the backlash you'd get these days for something like that. I admit; it's true. Nowadays character creation includes both female and male character. The problem for me with the Mass Effect series was that I did not pay enough attention and thought it was only a shooter, not an rpg. :-)
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Post by Shinobu on Jul 23, 2017 6:58:59 GMT
Yeah, not sure about that list (it includes something called Everybody's Golf). Try TVTropes: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterCustomizationI didn't go through everything but as expected, every entry under RPGs and MMOs has options for male/female. Fighting games seem to feature this more and more as well. Hell even a Sonic game has it now. As to your second point, you're conflating the articles together to make a point neither of them make- (DAI outselling other RPGs and rising female gamer stats). The former being due to the latter is not self-evident. And there's a lot more to consider than numbers to consider too. The stats article mentions motivations- female gamers are apparently motivated by completion and fantasy. I don't know DAI but I recall plenty of grumbling over its grind. And fantasy it has in spades. So without further data and analysis it could just as easily be true that the higher percentage of female gamers into DAI are there because the game as a whole meets their alleged "primary motivations", and not because some description somewhere spells out "you can be a chick" It's possible that my assumption of NOT being able to play as a woman in games is because I come from an era where that was the case. Betrayal at Krondor was an RPG with 6 protagonists, all of them male. Gothic and Nox were games my husband played that had male protagonists. I played Fallout, NWN, and Might and Magic specifically because I could create a female character, and other games that allowed me to be female but made me be a specific class, usually a thief or mage type (Diablo and Sacred). I stopped playing games for a decade due to other commitments until I picked up DAO and have pretty much just bought Bioware titles since then, with a couple of detours through Diablo 3, Borderlands 2 and DOS. So if it is the case that all RPGs these days have a female option then maybe only those of us who are old enough to remember the early days don't assume we will have the option. In any event, all games could do better at advertising what their customization options are. It's interesting to me that many games don't talk about character customization even when they have it. I don't know anything about Dark Souls 3, but apparently one can be female in that game, yet there's no mention of it or of any customization options on Steam or Amazon. The first video on the Steam page has a retro faux-advertisement for the "movie" that talks about "what a man must do." I never claimed that having a higher % of women buying the game alone caused DAI to be Bioware's most successful launch and I specifically said that a cause and effect relationship between advertising the female option, disproportionate numbers of women buying the game and a record launch couldn't be proven. However, I do think that both of those things helped quite a bit. In the article on female gamers by genre, they had 18.5% of the 270k respondents identify as female. However, of the western RPGs, 48% (about half) of the people claiming to have played DAI were female as opposed to the average for ME3, TW3, FO4 and Skyrim, which was 26% (about a quarter). If 18% of a player base suddenly accounts for almost half of sales AND the launch is the most successful ever, the question arises how did that happen? Let's arbitrarily decide that 10% of all gamers play RPGs. (Does anyone have real stats? I couldn't find any.) We know from the survey that usually a quarter of those are female, or 2.5% of all gamers are female RPG players and 7.5% are male RPG players. Suddenly, one game (DAI) sells half of their games to women AND has their most successful launch ever. The possibilities for getting a 50:50 split: 1) Females bought the game at their normal rate of 2.5% but males decreased their buying so the proportion of females to males became about even, another 2.5%. This would lead to half as many sales overall (5% versus our expected 10% of the total playerbase buying RPGs). This definitely didn't happen. 2) Males bought at their normal rate of 7.5%, but females increased their buying 3X to make the proportion of males to females even at 7.5%. This would make overall sales 15% of the playerbase, which increased overall sales by half.) This seems fairly reasonable. 3) Both females and males increased their buying to let's say 10%, which means a third more men bought the game and four times (!) as many women as usual bought the game, giving 20% (or double) normal sales. This seems possible but optimistic and probably would have been bragged about specifically. "We doubled our sales projection!" 4) Both females and males maxed out at 18% (the highest we can go and still have a 50:50 split). Males increased buying by 2.4X and females increased buying by a whopping 7.2X, giving overall sales of 36%, or more than three and a half times normal. This seems wildly improbable, because ALL female gamers in the survey would have needed to buy the game, which I guarantee didn't happen, and EA definitely would have mentioned a stat like that in their investor call. Remember, the overall population of female gamers in that survey is about 18%, so the number of male RPG players can't exceeed that and still have approximately equal numbers of males and females playing DAI. The number in fact must be lower than that in order for there to be record sales AND a 50:50 split. Because the proportion of female to male gamers for DAI is almost 50:50 instead of 25:75 like usual, and because we know that DAI was reported to be the "most successful launch by Bioware," Something like 2 or 3 had to have happened, which means that women came out for the game in unprecedented numbers while men either held steady or increased modestly. So why did unprecedented numbers of women turn out for DAI as opposed to the four other RPGs (ME3, TW3, FO4, Skyrim)? It's not DAI's superior quality. The other games are all very good and many are arguably better than DAI. I don't believe it to be the motivations "fantasy and completion" which are also present in the other games. "Fantasy" in that context doesn't mean a fantasy setting (which would apply to Skyrim in any case) but "Gamers who score high on Fantasy want their gaming experiences to allow them to become someone else, somewhere else. They enjoy the sense of being immersed in an alter ego in a believable alternate world, and enjoy exploring a game world just for the sake of exploring it." ( I took the survey to find out more about it.) That should apply to all of those games because they are RPGs. "Completion" means "Gamers with high Completion scores want to finish everything the game has to offer. They try to complete every mission, find every collectible, and discover every hidden location. For some players, this may mean completing every listed achievement or unlocking every possible character/move in a game." While this may be a motivator for many women (not me) this is not a discriminator someone would find out about a game prior to buying it. Bioware isn't going to advertise endless shard hunting and elfroot picking as a positive game feature, and all games have achievements. Maybe it is a mystical combination of wonderful things that DAI has, but then how did record numbers of women find out about them? There are few enough of us that we're not talking to each other much, definitely not enough to triple sales, so word of mouth probably isn't it. And we're not hearing about them from men, who care about different things, otherwise all games would have a 50:50 split. Where are women hearing the information that makes them buy games? I'd say it's advertising. And what is different between the advertising of ME3 and DAI? "Choose your gender, pick a class, and decide the Inquisitor's race." Maybe it's the explicitly stated ability to be an elf that's drawing women. I can't say for sure that it isn't. But my money is on the first part. And it would be very cheap for Bioware to give it a try in all of their descriptions.
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Shinobu211
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Post by Shinobu on Jul 26, 2017 2:06:11 GMT
Whether or not people should know that "customizable character" means they can gender swap does not mean that they could not gain additional players by making that function super duper obvious. Any variable subset of consumers could potentially be enticed to buy the game (or any product) based on any feature, whether by design or accidental. Shall we start listing them all? Clearly, that would be ridiculous and unfeasible. So which do you list? I would think unique features, something your game does that no other currently does would have priority over something that's true and implied by definition. If I want to advertise my FPS, I wouldn't include "shoot enemies in the head from a first person perspective" in my description. Taking the consumer attention span in mind is also important. Cost doesn't just mean money. Including a "well, duh" feature in your ad is space you could've used to include something else. So again, priorities. If any feature is important to the buying decision of 18% of your potential customers, it should be mentioned, yes.
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