inert
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by inert on Jul 21, 2017 14:23:38 GMT
Technically, Billy right about there being no such thing as netcode. Sure there is code related to networks but 'netcode' as a word is a colloquial term used by gamers, not a technical term used by network IT specialists. But that doesn't really matter, does it? The problem is, imho, that Buskell says that if you mention netcode as the source of your problems, they'll not only dissmiss that netcode claim but - effectively - they will thereby also dismiss you have problems with the game... Yup. "I think there's a problem with off-host headshots." - Valid issue. "I think there's an issue with the netocde, there seems to be a problem with off-host headshots" - bullshit. Buskell needs to ditch his pre-conceived notions and do some real testing - starting with the evidence in this thread. At work, we'll enter a project with our understanding of an issue only to have those notions blown out of the water by hard data. Lazy, dismissive answers like his cost us money.
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Post by squaredgonzo on Jul 21, 2017 14:25:18 GMT
The main takeaway here is them questioning "validity" of the report based on a blanket term, esp when majority of the community has been complaining about it since day one (also we have a shit ton of evidence).
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Post by squaredgonzo on Jul 21, 2017 14:36:46 GMT
m.imgur.com/gallery/rFVNO7nm.imgur.com/OdxviHEI don't even have a fucking narrative. I'm a nobody calling him out on his "netcode" comment. Got super defensive, and apparently we're twisting his own words. There's a video of you saying it Billy.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Jul 21, 2017 15:11:02 GMT
I do find the utter dismissal of the term 'netcode' to be puzzling.
Sure, it is not a 'real' term and it has become somewhat of a content-empty rallying cry for people who are angry. But language and people are funny like that: we will make up new terms or re-purpose old ones to suit our needs, and even if those needs are based in anger that is still a legitimate emotion.
If someone submit a totally valid, polite bug report and then (as is often the case) they extend the report into proposing solutions around 'netcode' -- you can / should ignore their proposed solution (the person is not a network engineer, what do they know?) but you should *not* ignore the problem they reported.
Analogy: if someone points to the website I work on and says the following:
"I am having trouble finding where to select which credit card I want to pay with. You should make a big red arrow pointing at the selector."
I can take their first sentence as legitimate criticism even while I pretty much ignore their second sentence (they're not a designer and also that's a pretty bad solution).
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Post by lennybusker on Jul 21, 2017 15:24:09 GMT
My Internet is as fast as I can get in my locality. If Bioware would like to say that people in your average Midwest American city don't have good enough Internet then I literally don't know what to say. I can't speak for Lenny's internet but I am going to go out on a limb and guess he is not using his cellphone as a hotspot. = = = Please, please do 'Me Too' and 'Grant XP' the bug report on EA Answers HQ. That link again: answers.ea.com/t5/Bug-Reports/Multiplayer-headshots-don-t-register-if-you-aren-t-host/td-p/5972449I have gigabit service from Rogers in Toronto. Wired from PC to modem (yes, with cat5e).
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Post by lennybusker on Jul 21, 2017 15:31:26 GMT
Wow, after seeing the twitter convo I'm even more pissed off. It's very easy to find already, but it almost makes me want to just widely distribute the Cheat Engine script that can...encourage the game to pay out quite a lot of credits in a very short time.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 21, 2017 15:31:27 GMT
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Post by squaredgonzo on Jul 21, 2017 15:31:30 GMT
I do find the utter dismissal of the term 'netcode' to be puzzling. Sure, it is not a 'real' term and it has become somewhat of a content-empty rallying cry for people who are angry. But language and people are funny like that: we will make up new terms or re-purpose old ones to suit our needs, and even if those needs are based in anger that is still a legitimate emotion. If someone submit a totally valid, polite bug report and then (as is often the case) they extend the report into proposing solutions around 'netcode' -- you can / should ignore their proposed solution (the person is not a network engineer, what do they know?) but you should *not* ignore the problem they reported. Analogy: if someone points to the website I work on and says the following: "I am having trouble finding where to select which credit card I want to pay with. You should make a big red arrow pointing at the selector." I can take their first sentence as legitimate criticism even while I pretty much ignore their second sentence (they're not a designer and also that's a pretty bad solution). He also needs to consider that most of the players aren't developers, so they shouldn't be dismissive of reports just because most players don't know their lingo.
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jadedragonmtr
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by jadedragonmtr on Jul 21, 2017 15:40:45 GMT
All this just makes me want to give up. 😩
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2017 16:10:32 GMT
without having a clue about what I'm talking about - "enable guests authority to resolve hit-checks locally" .. but that would probably open it to all sorts of aim bot exploits so perhaps it is better this way .. Well no, the hits are being resolved locally. But the hitboxes are at the wrong place, get what I'm saying? So you, locally, end up shooting up the wrong parts. You can actually check this using cheat engine with ESP, even though you're shooting the enemy's head according to its "mesh", the hitboxes aren't in the right places, it's all fucked. I also don't have a clue as to why things are the way they are, I don't work at BioWare. In this case, wouldn't the problem exist on-host as well as off? Or are you suggesting the position of the hitboxes on the enemies are different between host and not host? There are times when I've felt that shots I made on-host haven't landed as they should, but usually shrug it off as bad aim.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Jul 21, 2017 16:19:40 GMT
Ugh.
I don't like where this is going, on either side. Respect is a two-way street, and, for mind-bogglingly obvious reasons, a 140-character limit is an absolutely terrible way to maintain it.
This is why responsible companies maintain official forums.
There is never going to be any lack of bug reports/criticisms being couched in hostile terms, or coming across that way. It's the internet. Changing the format doesn't fix the problem (and in the case of Twitter makes it much worse.)
What I'm seeing is disturbingly similar to what happens when two echo chambers butt heads over conflicting narratives that each blindly uses to support their own perspective. It's non-productive and it's happening as much from BioWare right now as it is from the community. While some effort could be made to address the problem from both sides, it's starting to look pretty hopeless.
In the world of the internet, people reporting problems with their games are often upset when they do so. It's an unfortunate side effect of the way the industry works. We don't have much choice, as the games get released in a state that requires bugfixing for 2-6 months as standard. The community is only responsible for that in so far as they keep buying games in that state. When they report those bugs, some emotional frustration is inevitable. Which does not excuse people hurling insults or being aggressive, but ignoring reality does nothing to address the issue.
What upsets me is the recent pattern of BioWare employees making statements that are false or deceptive. Then those statements are ultimately questioned and criticized, only to have BioWare employees immediately deny having said them. I had this done to me by a former Community Manager (on reddit no less) but only after a moderator informed her that she had to answer me or they would shut the AMA down.
So she answered me by blatantly lying to my face about what she said (after having had screenshots of her quote repeatedly linked in the AMA.)
At that point, I lost all respect for her. And I won't lie, I saw that as indicative of the changing corporate culture at BioWare. And since then, I've seen the pattern repeat itself in big and small ways, but it's getting worse over time, especially with the shutdown of the one official channel between the community and the developers.
At this point, I just wish people would respect the complexity of everything. BioWare employees and the community alike need to put more effort into creating a better way of communicating.
In our case, unfortunately, our power is extremely limited. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but we're definitely going to need a real long-term strategy from BioWare for communication and QA with the community. The current system doesn't cut it, and it creates inferiour work while promoting negative interactions.
For the record, I'm as content to wave my hands and walk away from it all as anything else. My emotional reaction to most of these issues has been over and dealt with for quite a while. These days, I feel little more than disappointment when I see things go south (whether in terms of technical quality or communication quality.) There is still plenty of room for repair on both fronts, but it isn't going to happen under the current system.
I probably shouldn't have bothered typing all of that. :l
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Post by JRandall0308 on Jul 21, 2017 16:28:13 GMT
@jeremiah12lgeek I know we have butted heads in the past but mad props for what you just wrote. Unfortunately the current climate, with people withdrawing from the arguments (albeit for understandable reasons), makes it that much harder to get everyone back to the table, so to speak, to work out a better communication strategy going forward. *sigh* Really I just want to blow up aliens using space magic, not deal with all this drama.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jul 21, 2017 16:39:26 GMT
“Repent! The end is nigh!”
“BioWare are a blight on galactic purity. You sir! You are a blight! And you! And you, human. And you! (points to Billy).”
“The EA cast off the lesser races: the westwood, the pandemic, and the origin. "And so they dwelled in filth, on worlds made of dirt and feces, and there they lay until they stumbled into the skies." The lesser races will be our downfall! The Word is clear.”
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Post by Uchimura on Jul 21, 2017 16:45:45 GMT
Think everyone's putting way too much stock into what a dev says when streaming at home. If anyone's truly surprised by their responses, they haven't been following developer interactions in the industry for very long. They rarely ever tell you what you want to hear. Putting him on trial isn't helping anything.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jul 21, 2017 16:47:07 GMT
Think everyone's putting way too much stock into what a dev says when streaming at home. If anyone's truly surprised by their responses, they haven't been following developer interactions for very long. They rarely ever tell you what you want to hear. Putting him on trial isn't helping anything. I'm just having a little fun, nothing personal.
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Post by Uchimura on Jul 21, 2017 16:49:06 GMT
Think everyone's putting way too much stock into what a dev says when streaming at home. If anyone's truly surprised by their responses, they haven't been following developer interactions for very long. They rarely ever tell you what you want to hear. Putting him on trial isn't helping anything. I'm just having a little fun, nothing personal. Ah, that wasn't aimed at you.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jul 21, 2017 16:54:35 GMT
I'm just having a little fun, nothing personal. Ah, that wasn't aimed at you. I see.
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Post by unclemonster on Jul 21, 2017 17:03:12 GMT
I have gigabit service from Rogers in Toronto. Wired from PC to modem (yes, with cat5e). Why you no have cat 6?
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Post by Terminator Force on Jul 21, 2017 17:08:55 GMT
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Post by lawshadow on Jul 21, 2017 17:38:07 GMT
HAHAHA
What a load of horse SH*T.
I played with friends who have really good internet and are very close by, i myself use 100mb/s dl and 100mb/s ul fiberglass................my friends the ones i asked have 100mb/s connections. And yet my headshots won't register by like 70% to 80% of the time when they host.
FACT in ME3 MP there was no f*cking issue ever with of host headshots even with a laggy HOST i aim for head = profit almost 100% of the time.
Bioware is just laughing...and not take this seriously.
Whats the point in sniping if you can't even snipe.....unless you host? Good luck hosting matches takes ages to fill up...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2017 17:49:38 GMT
Well no, the hits are being resolved locally. But the hitboxes are at the wrong place, get what I'm saying? So you, locally, end up shooting up the wrong parts. You can actually check this using cheat engine with ESP, even though you're shooting the enemy's head according to its "mesh", the hitboxes aren't in the right places, it's all fucked. I also don't have a clue as to why things are the way they are, I don't work at BioWare. In this case, wouldn't the problem exist on-host as well as off? Or are you suggesting the position of the hitboxes on the enemies are different between host and not host? There are times when I've felt that shots I made on-host haven't landed as they should, but usually shrug it off as bad aim. I'm not a dev, but common sense tells me this: If you're on-host, there is no margin of error, enemies are where they should be at. If you're off-host, you don't have control over where the enemies are, their position/movement/actions are constantly communicated to your client via a layer of networking / synchronization - that's why the enemies can even move around at all since you don't have any control over that. And somewhere in that communication layer, something goes wrong and the hitboxes are not updated as they should be
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 21, 2017 17:53:02 GMT
... I probably shouldn't have bothered typing all of that. :l Maybe, but I couldn't have put it better with me fuzzy englische and that.
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Post by Transcended One on Jul 21, 2017 18:18:33 GMT
I have gigabit service from Rogers in Toronto. Wired from PC to modem (yes, with cat5e). Why you no have cat 6? Exactly my thoughts when I read that. I guess it wasn't just me
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Post by inert on Jul 21, 2017 18:19:12 GMT
My Internet is as fast as I can get in my locality. If Bioware would like to say that people in your average Midwest American city don't have good enough Internet then I literally don't know what to say. I can't speak for Lenny's internet but I am going to go out on a limb and guess he is not using his cellphone as a hotspot. = = = Please, please do 'Me Too' and 'Grant XP' the bug report on EA Answers HQ. That link again: answers.ea.com/t5/Bug-Reports/Multiplayer-headshots-don-t-register-if-you-aren-t-host/td-p/5972449I have gigabit service from Rogers in Toronto. Wired from PC to modem (yes, with cat5e). Howdy neighbour. I have the same, but our U/L is capped. Granted, it should be more than adequate. 947 Mbps Down/51.65 Mbps up
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Post by Kenny Bania on Jul 21, 2017 18:27:49 GMT
From now on, whenever an end-user complains about a bug in my code, I'll claim to be unable to reproduce it, and dismiss it. I'll also deny ever saying that and refuse to communicate further.
Fucking genius really.
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