cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 2,396
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Post by cypherj on Jul 24, 2017 21:38:17 GMT
Well the galaxy map in this game is far, far bigger than the Hades Gamma Cluster in the OT, or any cluster for that matter. Also, why do people keep acting as if meeting more races means meeting races native to the cluster. The Kett aren't from the cluster, so that means inter cluster travel is possible. The Initiative may not be established, but that doesn't mean the galaxy has to be the same. The Angarans aren't even native to the cluster. What happened to the race that was native to it. Could some of them be hanging on somewhere. There were ways that more races could have been in the game, and made sense. As far as we know, the Kett are the only ones capable of intergalactic travel. Doesn't mean that the other possible races of Andromeda has established it yet. But they could be, that's all I'm saying. This whole, it's just one cluster thing, precludes the possibility of any other reason another race would be in the Helius cluster. If you want to say this is the story Bioware wanted to tell then fine. But let's stop with the whole, it's only one cluster, which means there's no other reason or possibility for any additional races to be there.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 24, 2017 21:39:19 GMT
As far as we know, the Kett are the only ones capable of intergalactic travel. Doesn't mean that the other possible races of Andromeda has established it yet. But they could be, that's all I'm saying. This whole, it's just one cluster thing, precludes the possibility of any other reason another race would be in the Helius cluster. If you want to say this is the story Bioware wanted to tell then fine. But let's stop with the whole, it's only one cluster, which means there's no other reason or possibility for any additional races to be there. both points make sense though...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 24, 2017 21:40:25 GMT
No it isn't. There are only 30 or so systems in the Heleus Cluster. You see that many stars or many more in the other clusters. The only difference is here we explore every star while in the Shepard Trilogy we only go to a few. The Angara are native to Heleus. This is the cluster they were created. As for any other races, the Jaardan used the Heleus Cluster as a personal sandbox hence why all life there is from them. No they aren't. If I create a race and stick them on Mars, that race is not native to Mars. They're no different than a race that migrated there. There could have been a race that was formed and evolved in the Helius cluster. They would be native to the cluster. The Angarans were placed there. The race in your example are native to the solar system though, unless you made them somewhere else and then brought them here. Same with the Angara. They don't have an actual native planet(though arguable Meridian is), but they were born in the Heleus Cluster thus are native to it. Also, there are some native life still around in the Heleus Cluster. It's just the Scourge either wiped them out or prevents them from becoming the same tier as us.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 24, 2017 21:44:38 GMT
As far as we know, the Kett are the only ones capable of intergalactic travel. Doesn't mean that the other possible races of Andromeda has established it yet. But they could be, that's all I'm saying. This whole, it's just one cluster thing, precludes the possibility of any other reason another race would be in the Helius cluster. If you want to say this is the story Bioware wanted to tell then fine. But let's stop with the whole, it's only one cluster, which means there's no other reason or possibility for any additional races to be there. I understand your point. You are saying that the narrative of the singular cluster doesn't preclude additional races because they could have come from other clusters, like in the Milky Way currently clusters have multiple species even if they didn't originate there. Like the Kett. However... Think of it this way. The Helius Cluster is not heavily populated. There are some Angara settlements, and the new Kett invaders, but otherwise it's pretty sparse. Wouldn't it make sense for the Initiative to choose are more deserted cluster for colonization than risk the 100,000 travelers trying to get in with a native species that may or may not be hostile? I mean, if their tech could detect which planets were habitable to the point that they could describe each Habitat fairly specifically, you would have been able to detect a heavily civilized planet. So sure, they would avoid civilized clusters to go to ones where encountering other species was less likely.
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Post by suikoden on Jul 24, 2017 21:46:24 GMT
Did ME1 just have 2 alien races? I must've missed that. I'm not sure why some of you defend the game for the lack of something that would've made the game better... This is the entire element of settling for mediocrity - even praising and defending the game for it, that is frustrating to see as a fellow fan of the series. Ok - you like the game as it is, but can you not see how it could have been so much better if there were 3,4,5,6 etc - alien races to interact with? It would certainly fit better with the theme of path finding a new part of space. Sorry, you must have missed my point. They added more aliens in future games. Did that mean that not having them in ME1 was lazy? So there's a lot of hints that we'll encounter more species, in DLC or future MEA titles. Does that make it lazy to not include them in the first game of a new series? There's no real reason to not have Drell, Vorcha, Collectors, etc in ME1. There were 9 new alien races in ME1. You can try and tweak the numbers as much as you want - there were 2 in Andromeda. This a complaint of nearly every critical review. Why are you defending this? Surely you would have appreciated a greater variety? And using realism as an excuse...in a videogame... where humans have sex with aliens.... You'd think by trying to distance themselves from the trilogy, Bioware could have at the very least made an effort to truly make Andromeda feel unique. This same criticism apples to having multiple desert planets that look like Arizona, and an ice planet a la Star Wars.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 24, 2017 21:46:28 GMT
But they could be, that's all I'm saying. This whole, it's just one cluster thing, precludes the possibility of any other reason another race would be in the Helius cluster. If you want to say this is the story Bioware wanted to tell then fine. But let's stop with the whole, it's only one cluster, which means there's no other reason or possibility for any additional races to be there. I understand your point. You are saying that the narrative of the singular cluster doesn't preclude additional races because they could have come from other clusters, like in the Milky Way currently clusters have multiple species even if they didn't originate there. Like the Kett. However... Think of it this way. The Helius Cluster is not heavily populated. There are some Angara settlements, and the new Kett invaders, but otherwise it's pretty sparse. Wouldn't it make sense for the Initiative to choose are more deserted cluster for colonization than risk the 100,000 travelers trying to get in with a native species that may or may not be hostile? I mean, if their tech could detect which planets were habitable to the point that they could describe each Habitat fairly specifically, you would have been able to detect a heavily civilized planet. So sure, they would avoid civilized clusters to go to ones where encountering other species was less likely. This is one main reason I want more Andromeda. Imagine what could be in the next cluster?
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Post by colfoley on Jul 24, 2017 21:47:35 GMT
But they could be, that's all I'm saying. This whole, it's just one cluster thing, precludes the possibility of any other reason another race would be in the Helius cluster. If you want to say this is the story Bioware wanted to tell then fine. But let's stop with the whole, it's only one cluster, which means there's no other reason or possibility for any additional races to be there. I understand your point. You are saying that the narrative of the singular cluster doesn't preclude additional races because they could have come from other clusters, like in the Milky Way currently clusters have multiple species even if they didn't originate there. Like the Kett. However... Think of it this way. The Helius Cluster is not heavily populated. There are some Angara settlements, and the new Kett invaders, but otherwise it's pretty sparse. Wouldn't it make sense for the Initiative to choose are more deserted cluster for colonization than risk the 100,000 travelers trying to get in with a native species that may or may not be hostile? I mean, if their tech could detect which planets were habitable to the point that they could describe each Habitat fairly specifically, you would have been able to detect a heavily civilized planet. So sure, they would avoid civilized clusters to go to ones where encountering other species was less likely. that does confirm something that i was just thinking about because of this thread. That they really didn't expect to run into anyone.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 24, 2017 21:49:28 GMT
Sorry, you must have missed my point. They added more aliens in future games. Did that mean that not having them in ME1 was lazy? So there's a lot of hints that we'll encounter more species, in DLC or future MEA titles. Does that make it lazy to not include them in the first game of a new series? There's no real reason to not have Drell, Vorcha, Collectors, etc in ME1. There were 9 new alien races in ME1. You can try and tweak the numbers as much as you want - there were 2 in Andromeda. This a complaint of nearly every critical review. Why are you defending this? Surely you would have appreciated a greater variety? And using realism as an excuse...in a videogame... where humans have sex with aliens.... You'd think by trying to distance themselves from the trilogy, Bioware could have at the very least made an effort to truly make Andromeda feel unique. This same criticism apples to having multiple desert planets that look like Arizona, and an ice planet a la Star Wars. Why do you keep saying two? Remnant are a new alien race. And so when you go from ME1 to ME2 you get Drell, Vorcha, and Collectors in the base game. So ME2 is equally as lazy to ME1 as MEA is. Right?
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Post by colfoley on Jul 24, 2017 21:49:40 GMT
Sorry, you must have missed my point. They added more aliens in future games. Did that mean that not having them in ME1 was lazy? So there's a lot of hints that we'll encounter more species, in DLC or future MEA titles. Does that make it lazy to not include them in the first game of a new series? There's no real reason to not have Drell, Vorcha, Collectors, etc in ME1. There were 9 new alien races in ME1. You can try and tweak the numbers as much as you want - there were 2 in Andromeda. This a complaint of nearly every critical review. Why are you defending this? Surely you would have appreciated a greater variety? And using realism as an excuse...in a videogame... where humans have sex with aliens.... You'd think by trying to distance themselves from the trilogy, Bioware could have at the very least made an effort to truly make Andromeda feel unique. This same criticism apples to having multiple desert planets that look like Arizona, and an ice planet a la Star Wars. i only want variety if it makes sense. Variety for the sake of variety is....problematic.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 24, 2017 21:50:51 GMT
I understand your point. You are saying that the narrative of the singular cluster doesn't preclude additional races because they could have come from other clusters, like in the Milky Way currently clusters have multiple species even if they didn't originate there. Like the Kett. However... Think of it this way. The Helius Cluster is not heavily populated. There are some Angara settlements, and the new Kett invaders, but otherwise it's pretty sparse. Wouldn't it make sense for the Initiative to choose are more deserted cluster for colonization than risk the 100,000 travelers trying to get in with a native species that may or may not be hostile? I mean, if their tech could detect which planets were habitable to the point that they could describe each Habitat fairly specifically, you would have been able to detect a heavily civilized planet. So sure, they would avoid civilized clusters to go to ones where encountering other species was less likely. that does confirm something that i was just thinking about because of this thread. That they really didn't expect to run into anyone. It only makes sense. No point putting anyone at risk. But, like I've said, critical thinking is scarce here, in favor of gut-reaction.
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Post by abaris on Jul 24, 2017 21:51:22 GMT
Now we'll take out Asari, Krogan, Salarian, and Turian, because they are in MEA No, we don't take them out, since they have no business as far as Andromeda is concerned. They're Milky Way remnants that carried over to make up for the same we experienced over three games already. You also can't insert remnant, since we never see remnant. By the same token I can add Prothean to ME1. So we have Angaran and Kett. One interactable race in a new scenario that should have laid the groundwork to a new environment same as ME1 did with Milky Way. Kett is the generic enemy, same as the Geth in ME1.
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cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 2,396
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Post by cypherj on Jul 24, 2017 21:51:34 GMT
But they could be, that's all I'm saying. This whole, it's just one cluster thing, precludes the possibility of any other reason another race would be in the Helius cluster. If you want to say this is the story Bioware wanted to tell then fine. But let's stop with the whole, it's only one cluster, which means there's no other reason or possibility for any additional races to be there. I understand your point. You are saying that the narrative of the singular cluster doesn't preclude additional races because they could have come from other clusters, like in the Milky Way currently clusters have multiple species even if they didn't originate there. Like the Kett. However... Think of it this way. The Helius Cluster is not heavily populated. There are some Angara settlements, and the new Kett invaders, but otherwise it's pretty sparse. Wouldn't it make sense for the Initiative to choose are more deserted cluster for colonization than risk the 100,000 travelers trying to get in with a native species that may or may not be hostile? I mean, if their tech could detect which planets were habitable to the point that they could describe each Habitat fairly specifically, you would have been able to detect a heavily civilized planet. So sure, they would avoid civilized clusters to go to ones where encountering other species was less likely. The Solar system wasn't heavily populated, but when they found the relay and turned it on, it was all there, same principle. Just because the Helius Cluster isn't heavily populated, doesn't mean the rest of the galaxy isn't established with means to travel around.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 24, 2017 21:52:29 GMT
There were 9 new alien races in ME1. You can try and tweak the numbers as much as you want - there were 2 in Andromeda. This a complaint of nearly every critical review. Why are you defending this? Surely you would have appreciated a greater variety? And using realism as an excuse...in a videogame... where humans have sex with aliens.... You'd think by trying to distance themselves from the trilogy, Bioware could have at the very least made an effort to truly make Andromeda feel unique. This same criticism apples to having multiple desert planets that look like Arizona, and an ice planet a la Star Wars. i only want variety if it makes sense. Variety for the sake of variety is....problematic. *Sniff* Why'd you have to say that word? Now I miss someone again. 😁
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 24, 2017 21:53:28 GMT
Now we'll take out Asari, Krogan, Salarian, and Turian, because they are in MEA No, we don't take them out, since they have no business as far as Andromeda is concerned. They're Milky Way remnants that carried over to make up for the same we experienced over three games already. You also can't insert remnant, since we never see remnant. By the same token I can add Prothean to ME1. So we have Angaran and Kett. One interactable race in a new scenario that should have laid the groundwork to a new environment same as ME1 did with Milky Way. Kett is the generic enemy, same as the Geth in ME1. We never see Jardaan. Remnant are those robots we fight in all the Vaults and whatnot. And yeah, we take them out because they are aliens that exist in both games.
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Post by suikoden on Jul 24, 2017 21:53:39 GMT
There were 9 new alien races in ME1. You can try and tweak the numbers as much as you want - there were 2 in Andromeda. This a complaint of nearly every critical review. Why are you defending this? Surely you would have appreciated a greater variety? And using realism as an excuse...in a videogame... where humans have sex with aliens.... You'd think by trying to distance themselves from the trilogy, Bioware could have at the very least made an effort to truly make Andromeda feel unique. This same criticism apples to having multiple desert planets that look like Arizona, and an ice planet a la Star Wars. i only want variety if it makes sense. Variety for the sake of variety is....problematic. You'd think if anyone could pull that off after seeing what they created with ME1, it would be Bioware. I think their procedural planet dev process really had a negative impact on what the game could have been.
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Post by sil on Jul 24, 2017 21:58:22 GMT
You'd think if anyone could pull that off after seeing what they created with ME1, it would be Bioware. I think their procedural planet dev process really had a negative impact on what the game could have been. Yeah, the procedural planet idea wasn't the best, although using procedural tech to generate the basic layout of a planet isn't a bad idea, just trying to make the whole cluster explorable was. But they've likely learned their lesson.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 24, 2017 21:59:02 GMT
i only want variety if it makes sense. Variety for the sake of variety is....problematic. You'd think if anyone could pull that off after seeing what they created with ME1, it would be Bioware. I think their procedural planet dev process really had a negative impact on what the game could have been. honestly I'd rather have two interesting races then ten mediocre ones and the Angarra are my favorite ME species and the Kett are my second favorite enemy faction.
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Post by abaris on Jul 24, 2017 22:00:21 GMT
We never see Jardaan. Remnant are those robots we fight in all the Vaults and whatnot. And yeah, we take them out because they are aliens that exist in both games. Fine, so call them Geth. Truth is, the environment doesn't make for an interesting new scenario. There's no groundwork being laid out in the same way as ME1 did, to make this an interesting journey. There's nothing novel about it. Nothing new to discover. The supposedly unhabitable planets are already populated by our good old Milky Way species, with the Angarans being the only new addition, suffering under the Asari clone desease. And I don't even go there, how these species were able to establish themselves all over these planets within a short 12 to 14 months. It's taking the lazy approach and all attempts at making ends meet only excuse lazy design choices for a less than convincing scenario.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 24, 2017 22:02:24 GMT
Sorry, you must have missed my point. They added more aliens in future games. Did that mean that not having them in ME1 was lazy? So there's a lot of hints that we'll encounter more species, in DLC or future MEA titles. Does that make it lazy to not include them in the first game of a new series? There's no real reason to not have Drell, Vorcha, Collectors, etc in ME1. There were 9 new alien races in ME1. You can try and tweak the numbers as much as you want - there were 2 in Andromeda. This a complaint of nearly every critical review. Why are you defending this? Surely you would have appreciated a greater variety? And using realism as an excuse...in a videogame... where humans have sex with aliens.... You'd think by trying to distance themselves from the trilogy, Bioware could have at the very least made an effort to truly make Andromeda feel unique. This same criticism apples to having multiple desert planets that look like Arizona, and an ice planet a la Star Wars. So if there are 9 races in ME1, and if the Quarian DLC comes out and results in MEA having 13-14 races, then by your logic ME1 is lazier than MEA. And yes, the Milky Way races count towards the number because as you said this is a video game. And as a video game, it has limitations so to include returning races that meant adding less new ones. Same reason why ME2 and ME3 introduced less new races.
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Post by abaris on Jul 24, 2017 22:07:57 GMT
So if there are 9 races in ME1, and if the Quarian DLC comes out and results in MEA having 13-14 races, then by your logic ME1 is lazier than MEA. You obviously don't get it. ME1 introduced the races, MEA just carried them over to a new Galaxy where we still play Milky Way instead of having a new exciting environment with new races being introduced. No matter how many races they carry over, it's still Milky Way and I almost feel sorry for the Angarans, if people are content with playing the same old with just a label of different galaxy slapped over it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 24, 2017 22:12:08 GMT
So if there are 9 races in ME1, and if the Quarian DLC comes out and results in MEA having 13-14 races, then by your logic ME1 is lazier than MEA. You obviously don't get it. ME1 introduced the races, MEA just carried them over to a new Galaxy where we still play Milky Way instead of having a new exciting environment with new races being introduced. No matter how many races they carry over, it's still Milky Way and I almost feel sorry for the Angarans, if people are content with playing the same old with just a label of different galaxy slapped over it. No, I get it just fine. The facts are with me.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 24, 2017 22:18:06 GMT
We never see Jardaan. Remnant are those robots we fight in all the Vaults and whatnot. And yeah, we take them out because they are aliens that exist in both games. Fine, so call them Geth. Truth is, the environment doesn't make for an interesting new scenario. There's no groundwork being laid out in the same way as ME1 did, to make this an interesting journey. There's nothing novel about it. Nothing new to discover. The supposedly unhabitable planets are already populated by our good old Milky Way species, with the Angarans being the only new addition, suffering under the Asari clone desease. And I don't even go there, how these species were able to establish themselves all over these planets within a short 12 to 14 months. It's taking the lazy approach and all attempts at making ends meet only excuse lazy design choices for a less than convincing scenario. Well, no. It's not a new game, so it doesn't need to lay the groundwork exactly like ME1. More like ME2 or ME3. Using a lot of established groundwork. That's how sequels work. I think there's an interesting journey. All sorts of new stuff to discover. The true nature of the Kett. Capabilities of the Remnant. Pretty much everything about the Jardaan and much about the Angara. There are so many mysteries in Andromeda, more than at the end of ME1. There was nothing to discover after ME1, just a threat to prepare for. Fact. The species also didn't establish themselves "all over the planets" in 14 months. There's a few working outposts and basically 1 "City". That's it. You don't land all over the planet. You land in one spot. You drive for a short amount of time. All the civilization in Andromeda is pretty centralized. You can call it lazy, but nothing you have said supports that claim.
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Post by alihou on Jul 24, 2017 22:27:52 GMT
OP you're hundred percent correct. MEA writing was so uninspired and lazy. They had limitless opportunities with a blank slate to whip up a new narrative...yet, they squandered it with generic aliens and lifeless maps. If you're leaving the milky way, I want to be introduced to new species to interact with. The Kett and angara were not very well written. The angara had its moments, but even that was a rehash of what we've seen. I can't express enough how disappointing this game was to me. They only seemed to get the combat correct.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2017 22:35:54 GMT
Yup, very much so Everything feels very... human-like, one of my complaints is that in the Andromeda Initiative, you could literally replace every alien npc model with a human and it wouldnt make a great deal of difference. It feels like they upped the alien with the kett and angara but forgot about the milky way races, their inter-species relations and general idk racial personalities I guess would be a way of saying it... in the previous ME games it was like every race almost had a purpose or a unique trait, and their positions werent really interchangeable, like you couldnt have had Krogan dancers on Omega, or Geth being the aggressive race which were victims of the genophage, it just wouldnt work... in Andromeda though its like 99% of what makes the races in Mass Effect unique are gone, and the alien species we have in Andromeda arent too special either. The remnant are just machines, the Kett are a race of religious aliens who want to convert everyone else, and the Angara are the ones who are being attacked/fighting back... I think we've lost a lot of alienness, but also a lot of complexity and uniqueness of the alienness too In terms of the environments, the only one that really struck me as alien was Havarl, because I got Pandora vibes... other than that there were 2 deserts, an ice planet, a weird swamp-type-planet and idk ive probably forgotten some I havent played the game in a long time, but most of the locations were like ones you could find on earth, nothing special and mostly empty. They could have made it more alien by having more urban areas beyond small outposts... I mean if an alien came to earth and was like "Hi! I want to know things about you", you wouldnt send them to a desert or a swamp or the arctic somewhere, youd send them to a city because for better or for worse, a city is where you learn most about a culture, and its missing in MEA. Large empty places with earth-like environments doesnt feel alien. Like there was nothing actually alien about them apart from the remnant vaults and idk maybe some plants. Between a black hole, the scourge, advanced alien technology and a completely different galaxy, it would have been really easy to create some unique planets. Even the descriptions of some you could find in ME1 were more unique than the planets you could explore in Andromeda... the maps were fine to drive around in, but not so good at conveying a tone of an alien world I dont think
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Champion of the Raven Queen
605
0
3,489
maximusarael020
1,651
August 2016
maximusarael020
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
MaximusArael020
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 24, 2017 22:47:56 GMT
Yup, very much so Everything feels very... human-like, one of my complaints is that in the Andromeda Initiative, you could literally replace every alien npc model with a human and it wouldnt make a great deal of difference. It feels like they upped the alien with the kett and angara but forgot about the milky way races, their inter-species relations and general idk racial personalities I guess would be a way of saying it... in the previous ME games it was like every race almost had a purpose or a unique trait, and their positions werent really interchangeable, like you couldnt have had Krogan dancers on Omega, or Geth being the aggressive race which were victims of the genophage, it just wouldnt work... in Andromeda though its like 99% of what makes the races in Mass Effect unique are gone, and the alien species we have in Andromeda arent too special either. The remnant are just machines, the Kett are a race of religious aliens who want to convert everyone else, and the Angara are the ones who are being attacked/fighting back... I think we've lost a lot of alienness, but also a lot of complexity and uniqueness of the alienness too In terms of the environments, the only one that really struck me as alien was Havarl, because I got Pandora vibes... other than that there were 2 deserts, an ice planet, a weird swamp-type-planet and idk ive probably forgotten some I havent played the game in a long time, but most of the locations were like ones you could find on earth, nothing special and mostly empty. They could have made it more alien by having more urban areas beyond small outposts... I mean if an alien came to earth and was like "Hi! I want to know things about you", you wouldnt send them to a desert or a swamp or the arctic somewhere, youd send them to a city because for better or for worse, a city is where you learn most about a culture, and its missing in MEA. Large empty places with earth-like environments doesnt feel alien. Like there was nothing actually alien about them apart from the remnant vaults and idk maybe some plants. Between a black hole, the scourge, advanced alien technology and a completely different galaxy, it would have been really easy to create some unique planets. Even the descriptions of some you could find in ME1 were more unique than the planets you could explore in Andromeda... the maps were fine to drive around in, but not so good at conveying a tone of an alien world I dont think Remember, though, that all the planets we are exploring were supposed to be habitable planets for the Milky Way species. Therefore they should feel fairly recognizable. Another poster had explained this perfectly. You aren't going to settle Turians on a methane gas world or Asari on a water world or humans on a world made up of moving turtles. Alien, sure. But does it make sense in the story? Not at all. Same goes for the number of alien races. If you were doing to settle somewhere new, would you take your people to a place fun of unknown civilizations that might kill you straight off? NO! You would go to an uninhabited region. Everything they did makes sense if you think about the reason they left and what they were trying to do. If that's boring to you, well, that's your right to feel that way. For me, I like when my story makes sense in a game.
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