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Post by Steelcan on Aug 1, 2017 2:38:14 GMT
I disagree with the OP, and I think you've touched on what about the game so irked me.
All of the characters in Andromeda come from a very similar place and undergo a very similar arc and that is the problem with them in my opinion. There is little variety within the crew between their motivations and eventual place in the crew. Furthermore many of them are characterized similarly to each other.
Let's start of with some of the character's backgrounds.
Vetra is a turian smuggler raised outside of the normal society of turians and seemingly isn't part of the rigid turian way of life existing largely on its periphery. Peebee is an asari, who doesn't particularly like other asari, and exists independently of the asari ark and the Initiative as a whole. Drack is a krogan, who goes off on his own to fight his own war against the kKett. Javik is an agent of the Anagara military...but operates seemingly independently of their command structures.
Can you detect a trend? All of the companions start off as outsiders and try to grow closer together as a part of the Nexus crew. This is also seen somewhat with the others on board the Tempest as well. Lexi seemingly has trouble fitting in with social situations, SAM wants to form a weird symbiosis to further understand humanity, etc...
This isn't inherently a problem, and a unifying theme among the crew isn't a bad thing really. It can help tie together the themes most present in the narrative. ME2 in stark contrast had none of this and each character's themes and narrative purpose are almost wholly independent of each other.
However, I don't think this worked in Andromeda very well for a few reasons. First and foremost, there's very little sense that the characters have matured over the course of the game. There are some scenes that hint at a growing sense of maturity, but they are often restricted wholly to the end of the loyalty mission and never brought back up again. The character slides right back into their pre-LM manner as soon as the mission is out of your journal.
For example, Peebee ends her LM with a confession to the whole crew and is surprised at their acceptance of her. Yet this is not reflected in a substantial way. She still stays in the escape pod (because what is subtlety). Drack learns a valuable lesson about the limits of his ability to protect his granddaughter and the role that he sees himself playing for the krogan settlement, yet this is also not reflected in any change.
Now on top of this throw the writing of the characters themselves. At times they can pass muster from the original trilogy and I won't argue that the OT was flawless in regards to well done character writing.
But there were no moments such as Liam talking about shooting people in the face. Now some instances of this dialogue are acceptable. Cora's juvenile adolation of the asari is to set up her realization later on, and the infamous Suvi/Ryder flirting has its defenders as awkward flirting. But these reasons cannot encompass all of the writing mishaps and when piled on to characters that are often very similar in arc and origin, to say nothing of the repetitive nature of the writing, it doesn't stack up well in comparison to the highs of the original trilogy.
There's no Mordins or Legions to be found in Andromeda's crew.
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 1, 2017 2:42:50 GMT
And sincerely, many of the characters are copies from previous games. Drack is an absolute copy+paste from Wrex, even the voice is very similar. Vetra is a worsened Garrus SAM is a very worsened EDI Peebee is like Sera, but much, much better, I feel she's the only character in the game that actually has a personality
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Post by colfoley on Aug 1, 2017 3:12:33 GMT
And sincerely, many of the characters are copies from previous games. Drack is an absolute copy+paste from Wrex, even the voice is very similar. Vetra is a worsened Garrus SAM is a very worsened EDI Peebee is like Sera, but much, much better, I feel she's the only character in the game that actually has a personality its a gross over simplification. Drack is not Wrex. Drack didn't think.himself worthwhile. Wrex didn't think his people were worth while. Vetra is in no way Garrus. Maybe a little in the awkward romance part but again their lie was different. Their.motivations were different and their skill set was different. SAM on the other hand is what EDI should have been before they decided to rip off Data. Different unknowable. Doesn't want to be human. Wants to be unapologetically AI but also does not want to rule the universe like that other sci fi trope. And Peebee is the exact opposite of Sera. Sera hates the unknown l, Peebee is turned on by it. Sera seeks out social connections and a team, Peebee is repulsed by it. As far as Liam is concerned i actually think he is one of the most interesting characters that Bioware has done. Why? Because he puts on their head. He is not a hypercompetent super hero like most video game team members and protagonists. But he makes mistakes and once i figured out what he was about i actually grew to like him as a person and a Character. Better then Liara Jack grunt or Oghren certainly.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 1, 2017 3:25:41 GMT
And sincerely, many of the characters are copies from previous games. Drack is an absolute copy+paste from Wrex, even the voice is very similar. Vetra is a worsened Garrus SAM is a very worsened EDI Peebee is like Sera, but much, much better, I feel she's the only character in the game that actually has a personality That was one of my fears when I first got the game. That the companions were going to be carbon copies of popular characters. Thankfully they are far from it, with each one of them with something that makes them unique.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 1, 2017 3:29:31 GMT
I disagree completely, but I would like to especially point out that Andromeda has THE worst character Bioware has ever written: Liam He is absolutely disgusting. He is that kind of guy who tries to be funny all the time, but he just isn't. He just has stupid jokes and terrible lines ALL THE TIME. Hated him since the first mission But my hate for him grew even more after his loyalty mission, because I couldn't believe he was so fucking stupid. He didn't like the angaran and the human were not IMMEDIATELY working together, despite the past of the angara with the kett and the fact that they barely know each other and his solution for that is TO GIVE VITAL INFORMATION ABOUT THE NEXUS (INCLUDING COMMUNICATION CODES) TO A RANDOM CONTACT. And then when this contact gets captured, he forces me to invade the pirate ship without any kind of plan and when the mission, by a miracle, succeeds, he acts like it was all a joke. Seriously, I don't normally kill or send away my companions in any Bioware games, I hated Anders but I kept him around during my final mission in DA2, but Liam... if I had the option to exile him or just shoot him in the face on that moment, I would have. It's not enough for him to be absurdely poorly written, he had to be the dumbest companion on a Bioware game ever. Ugh. Liam was angry at himself and personally apologized to Ryder after the LM.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 1, 2017 3:51:26 GMT
the cop is a piece of crap. Standards must have been lowered for him to join the police force. He gave valuable information to some unknown individual. He realized he messed up after his mission. So what? He can't be trusted anymore. Throw him out the airlock
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Post by warrior on Aug 1, 2017 4:13:01 GMT
I think an issue is maybe that these just aren't interesting arcs/internal struggles for me personally? Like, they're fine, but I guess I prefer a little more intrigue. Okay so pretty much everyone had daddy issues (from either side of it) in MET, and Mordin committed genocide, Jack suffered major child abuse, Samara kills her child, Colonist Shep saw their family murdered, and maybe that was all...a little bit much. But this game went so far to the other side of that spectrum that I had the opposite problem; issues like "I worry about my sister" appear in ME (Miranda) but they're twisted in some way to fit a unique story for that unique universe (Miranda and her sister have a deeper darker family history that gets gradually revealed), whereas MEA doesn't go much beyond "I worry about my sister." I prefer they strike a balance between the spectacularly traumatized and the unexceptionally well-adjusted in the next cast, should there be one... ETA: because I really think MET would have benefitted from a sweet character moment/scene like meeting Jaal's family, and MEA would have benefitted from a dark character moment/scene like Jack going back to visit the site of her abuse/torture.
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Post by pouf on Aug 1, 2017 4:18:32 GMT
This thread is a rebuttal to people who bitch about a game they've never even played.
What's the point? Don't pretend these people will ever stop making the fandom hell for actual fans.
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Post by Guts on Aug 1, 2017 5:13:39 GMT
This thread is a rebuttal to people who bitch about a game they've never even played. What's the point? Don't pretend these people will ever stop making the fandom hell for actual fans. Oh great. Can we please for the love of God not start this opinionated bullshit!
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Post by kino on Aug 1, 2017 5:22:18 GMT
Personally, I loved the companion dialog in ME:A. They were all one dimensional in their personal issues but who the hell isn't in a massive RPG game? I felt like I got Cora, Gil, Liam, Jaal, PeeBee, et al, as I was playing. As each companion dilemma arose I could relate to someone I've known. Their dialog made sense to me for the issue that they were facing and, in some cases, overcoming.
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 1, 2017 5:29:25 GMT
And sincerely, many of the characters are copies from previous games. Drack is an absolute copy+paste from Wrex, even the voice is very similar. Vetra is a worsened Garrus SAM is a very worsened EDI Peebee is like Sera, but much, much better, I feel she's the only character in the game that actually has a personality its a gross over simplification. Drack is not Wrex. Drack didn't think.himself worthwhile. Wrex didn't think his people were worth while. Vetra is in no way Garrus. Maybe a little in the awkward romance part but again their lie was different. Their.motivations were different and their skill set was different. SAM on the other hand is what EDI should have been before they decided to rip off Data. Different unknowable. Doesn't want to be human. Wants to be unapologetically AI but also does not want to rule the universe like that other sci fi trope. And Peebee is the exact opposite of Sera. Sera hates the unknown l, Peebee is turned on by it. Sera seeks out social connections and a team, Peebee is repulsed by it. As far as Liam is concerned i actually think he is one of the most interesting characters that Bioware has done. Why? Because he puts on their head. He is not a hypercompetent super hero like most video game team members and protagonists. But he makes mistakes and once i figured out what he was about i actually grew to like him as a person and a Character. Better then Liara Jack grunt or Oghren certainly. I'm not talking so much on "personality", but more on their role on the story. Drack is there to say things like "my advice is kill everyone and survive". He's there to be the "badass krogan" like Wrex. That's his role. It's exactly like Wrex. Vetra is there to be like "I may do bad things sometimes, but it's for a greater good" SAM is there to be the "AI vision on organic life" And Peebee is there to be the "rebel who doesn't care about her own species" No, Liam is not "hypercompetent", surely. He is fucking dumb. He's an idiot I wouldn't trust to take care of a spoon, much less a huge operation like The Initiative.
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 1, 2017 5:31:34 GMT
I disagree completely, but I would like to especially point out that Andromeda has THE worst character Bioware has ever written: Liam He is absolutely disgusting. He is that kind of guy who tries to be funny all the time, but he just isn't. He just has stupid jokes and terrible lines ALL THE TIME. Hated him since the first mission But my hate for him grew even more after his loyalty mission, because I couldn't believe he was so fucking stupid. He didn't like the angaran and the human were not IMMEDIATELY working together, despite the past of the angara with the kett and the fact that they barely know each other and his solution for that is TO GIVE VITAL INFORMATION ABOUT THE NEXUS (INCLUDING COMMUNICATION CODES) TO A RANDOM CONTACT. And then when this contact gets captured, he forces me to invade the pirate ship without any kind of plan and when the mission, by a miracle, succeeds, he acts like it was all a joke. Seriously, I don't normally kill or send away my companions in any Bioware games, I hated Anders but I kept him around during my final mission in DA2, but Liam... if I had the option to exile him or just shoot him in the face on that moment, I would have. It's not enough for him to be absurdely poorly written, he had to be the dumbest companion on a Bioware game ever. Ugh. Liam was angry at himself and personally apologized to Ryder after the LM. Man, this isn't some kind of mistake where you "apologize" and all is well, like, for example, not knowing your student actually joined the mercenaries, and wasn't kidnapped by them, like Mordin, for example. He could have jeopardized the entire Initiative and he acts like it was all funny. Gosh, what a worthless character. Wish I could have Javik to throw him out of the airlock, like someone said.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 1, 2017 5:37:08 GMT
Liam was angry at himself and personally apologized to Ryder after the LM. Man, this isn't some kind of mistake where you "apologize" and all is well, like, for example, not knowing your student actually joined the mercenaries, and wasn't kidnapped by them, like Mordin, for example. He could have jeopardized the entire Initiative and he acts like it was all funny. Gosh, what a worthless character. Wish I could have Javik to throw him out of the airlock, like someone said. He recognized the mistake and tried to fix it. He managed to do so but still felt guilty. He did try to make it up by staging a soccer game.
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Post by Shinobu on Aug 1, 2017 5:50:16 GMT
I have mixed feelings about the squad. I didn't love them, but I didn't love Tali, Wrex and Garrus after ME1, so I'm hopeful more exposure will flesh them out. They did tend to harp on one theme a lot (e.g., gardens and commandos, my sister, etc.) which was a little wearing. I found I liked Cora a lot more after taking her for a drive with the others and hearing her ask them questions instead of talking about herself.
As for Liam, I found it kind of refreshing to have an immature squaddie who wants to do good as opposed to Shepard's crew of jaded killers. I found many of his actions offputting or frustrating (shooting a corpse, giving away classified information), but I don't think that made him a badly-written character. I like having him around, even when I want to slap him upside the head. He has good room to mature.
I romanced Vetra and when she broke down, saying: "You care about me -- for me! Not for what you can get out of me" I got really confused. When Garrus said in ME2 "I've seen so many things go wrong: my work at CSec, what happened with Sidonis -- I want something to go right. Just once" I felt I had seen or heard about all of the things he was talking about. Vetra's line seemingly came out of the blue, because I hadn't witnessed anyone she cared about using her, and as far as I knew she hadn't really gotten much for the ship. What was the motivation for this outburst? Unfortunately, we never got to explore the matter further.
In general I felt the squad needed to show off their skills more. Like Hanako said, I wanted to have to consult with Suvi or Lexi about things related to missions and I wanted Kallo and Gil to have their hero moment like Joker did in ME1 (Ilos air drop) and ME2 (unshackling EDI, Omega 4 relay). I wanted Vetra to acquire something we really needed, and have Liam show up with a useful Angaran contact. I also wanted to hear their opinions about politics. Having Jaal in the Nomad was a perfect opportunity to have the NPCs info dump about the Milky Way and discuss hot button issues like the genophage, but instead that was glossed over ("I read about the genophage." "I don't want to talk about it."). I wanted to see their relationships change (Vetra and PeeBee resolved their differences much too quickly, Vetra and Liam not at all) so that I believed they were becoming a family. PeeBee's "hey, I decided to trust all of you" announcement also seemed to come out of nowhere, since with the exception of Ryder she didn't really seem to be bonding with anyone (apart from eyeing Jaal).
All in all, I thought they were ok and hope to become more attached to them in the future.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 1, 2017 5:50:47 GMT
the cop is a piece of crap. Standards must have been lowered for him to join the police force. He gave valuable information to some unknown individual. He realized he messed up after his mission. So what? He can't be trusted anymore. Throw him out the airlock He was also part of a group which required him to react quickly. I think it was called HUSTL.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 1, 2017 5:51:55 GMT
its a gross over simplification. Drack is not Wrex. Drack didn't think.himself worthwhile. Wrex didn't think his people were worth while. Vetra is in no way Garrus. Maybe a little in the awkward romance part but again their lie was different. Their.motivations were different and their skill set was different. SAM on the other hand is what EDI should have been before they decided to rip off Data. Different unknowable. Doesn't want to be human. Wants to be unapologetically AI but also does not want to rule the universe like that other sci fi trope. And Peebee is the exact opposite of Sera. Sera hates the unknown l, Peebee is turned on by it. Sera seeks out social connections and a team, Peebee is repulsed by it. As far as Liam is concerned i actually think he is one of the most interesting characters that Bioware has done. Why? Because he puts on their head. He is not a hypercompetent super hero like most video game team members and protagonists. But he makes mistakes and once i figured out what he was about i actually grew to like him as a person and a Character. Better then Liara Jack grunt or Oghren certainly. I'm not talking so much on "personality", but more on their role on the story. Drack is there to say things like "my advice is kill everyone and survive". He's there to be the "badass krogan" like Wrex. That's his role. It's exactly like Wrex. Vetra is there to be like "I may do bad things sometimes, but it's for a greater good" SAM is there to be the "AI vision on organic life" And Peebee is there to be the "rebel who doesn't care about her own species" No, Liam is not "hypercompetent", surely. He is fucking dumb. He's an idiot I wouldn't trust to take care of a spoon, much less a huge operation like The Initiative. Okay... I'd guess you can describe a lot of ME2 squad as people with daddy issues.
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Post by Fredward on Aug 1, 2017 5:57:52 GMT
~narrator turns to camera~
They weren't.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 1, 2017 6:04:09 GMT
the cop is a piece of crap. Standards must have been lowered for him to join the police force. He gave valuable information to some unknown individual. He realized he messed up after his mission. So what? He can't be trusted anymore. Throw him out the airlock How Jem'hadar of you. Seriously watched an episode of Deep Space Nine where the Dominion and Captain Sisko have to work together to defeat a common enemy, anyways one of the Jem'hadar kills one of his own men for violating an order and Sisko gives one hell of a speech on wy that ain't cool. But, at the bottom of it, you'd be wasting one hell of an asset. And as Smilesja points out later, he can learn from his mistakes. Sure it might be the popular thing to do, to kill wrong doers and people who make mistakes, but he easily learned from it. But speaking of him being a cop I watched an interesting video on youtube the other day "Why we are Jar Jar." And while I disagree with that particular videos conclusions, after all I do not speak in eubonics (sp?) and am not entirely an idiot, but that description might better apply to Liam. We are Liam, and Liam's background...a very blue collar background as a cop (a screw up though) and a crisis response specialist is something which is familiar and regular. It is a down to earth perspective. On events. I mean we may all hope we are Garrus, or Wrex, or Shepard, or even Ryder...the bad ass heroes...we are more prone to be Liam. I mean I HOPE I and most of us would not screw up as bad as he did with Verand, but how many of us would honestly keep our cool in a firefight and not let our emotions run wild because we do not have the training or the ability? And while Liam did, supposedly, but he was also very young, did not stay in either position for very long, and basically joined the AI on a lark or whim. And I think that is why he may anger us, because most of us hope we are the cool ones. I think an issue is maybe that these just aren't interesting arcs/internal struggles for me personally? Like, they're fine, but I guess I prefer a little more intrigue. Okay so pretty much everyone had daddy issues (from either side of it) in MET, and Mordin committed genocide, Jack suffered major child abuse, Samara kills her child, Colonist Shep saw their family murdered, and maybe that was all...a little bit much. But this game went so far to the other side of that spectrum that I had the opposite problem; issues like "I worry about my sister" appear in ME (Miranda) but they're twisted in some way to fit a unique story for that unique universe (Miranda and her sister have a deeper darker family history that gets gradually revealed), whereas MEA doesn't go much beyond "I worry about my sister." I prefer they strike a balance between the spectacularly traumatized and the unexceptionally well-adjusted in the next cast, should there be one... ETA: because I really think MET would have benefitted from a sweet character moment/scene like meeting Jaal's family, and MEA would have benefitted from a dark character moment/scene like Jack going back to visit the site of her abuse/torture. On the face of it I wonder if you aren't onto something. I'm just not sure yet I am mulling over this idea over in my thread but...well a video I watched, and the many examples in fiction I can think of, posits its neccessary to be mean to your characters. Being mean to them, having them undergo psychological and physical torture, breeds sympathy. For even the worse characters, both Theon Greyjoy and Jamie Lannister have become better more sympathetic characters because of the hell they are going through. And most of the characters in the trilogy went through hell. So, we might sympathy and get pulled into the performance more then we did in Andromeda. Though the thing I can't figure out is that the writers are mean to the characters in Andromeda. Ryder dies twice and looses his father, Drack is (Obi-Wan voice) more machine then man, Jaal gets shot and also finds out two gut punching revelations throughout the narrative, Peebee is betrayed by a close personal friend, and I could probably find examples of meanness for the other characters and even the secondary ones (cough Sloan cough), but for some reason that level of meaness didn't translate as well as it did in the OT.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 1, 2017 6:04:57 GMT
~narrator turns to camera~ They weren't. Hi Ronald I'm Nero.
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Post by Fredward on Aug 1, 2017 6:20:09 GMT
~narrator turns to camera~ They weren't. Hi Ronald I'm Nero. I didn't catch the reference but, for instance, witness this take on Bull. You can do this with the majority of DAI's core cast. There are layers of motivations, inner conflict, nuance. MEA's cast is, by and large, much less so.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 1, 2017 6:41:03 GMT
I didn't catch the reference but, for instance, witness this take on Bull. You can do this with the majority of DAI's core cast. There are layers of motivations, inner conflict, nuance. MEA's cast is, by and large, much less so. Don't know about that. For an example, I'd consider Liam as a character study of what happens when a person who does not have the title of the main character nor the plot armor that comes with it tries to do something crazy but well intentioned. It nearly ends up ruining the Initiative and he has to look rely on Ryder to get out of his situation that he created.
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Post by merlinistyle on Aug 1, 2017 6:41:19 GMT
Liam was angry at himself and personally apologized to Ryder after the LM. Man, this isn't some kind of mistake where you "apologize" and all is well, like, for example, not knowing your student actually joined the mercenaries, and wasn't kidnapped by them, like Mordin, for example. He could have jeopardized the entire Initiative and he acts like it was all funny. Gosh, what a worthless character. Wish I could have Javik to throw him out of the airlock, like someone said. You realise, that the fact, that you hate him so much, the fact that he disgusts you so much, only proves, what a good work BW have made with him. Because you know... you just dont like THIS KIND OF PERSON. Your hate finds place only towards his behaviour, actions, speech etc. Not because he is badly written. Just dont bring him on missions and dont speak with him, what's the problem To add my opinion, i really dont like how some characters are given more actual screen time than others. =\ I agree on the fact, that we lack critical thinking and are not given opportunities to punch, scream at people and be rude. "-F*** off, pathfinder -Ryder, i think, it would be unwise to start a confronta... - Just shut up, SAM. *reaches out for the asari sword* "
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 1, 2017 6:53:23 GMT
Man, this isn't some kind of mistake where you "apologize" and all is well, like, for example, not knowing your student actually joined the mercenaries, and wasn't kidnapped by them, like Mordin, for example. He could have jeopardized the entire Initiative and he acts like it was all funny. Gosh, what a worthless character. Wish I could have Javik to throw him out of the airlock, like someone said. You realise, that the fact, that you hate him so much, the fact that he disguises you so much, only proves, what a good work BW have made with him. Because you know... you just dont like THIS KIND OF PERSON. Your hate finds place only towards his behaviour, actions, speech etc. Not because he is badly written. Just dont bring him on missions and dont speak with him, what's the problem To add my opinion, i really dont like how some characters are given more actual screen time than others. =\ I agree on the fact, that we lack critical thinking and are not given opportunities to punch, scream at people and be rude. "-F*** off, pathfinder -Ryder, i think, it would be unwise to start a confronta... - Just shut up, SAM. *reaches out for the asari sword* " No, that's different. There are characters I hate and characters, like George Martin said, I "love to hate". See my first post on Liam, it's on the bottom of the first page. I hate him because he's stupid AND he is extremely poor written. His dialogues are laughable of how bad they are, they look like they were written by a 12 year old. "That kett doesn't like me... maybe because I shot him on the face!" "Wow, it's crazy here, rocks are floating!" "I get a little pissed when people are trying to kill me!" Seriously, it's just pathetic. His loyalty mission was just the cherry on the top of the cake. I hate him like I hate Twilight. I didn't like Javik or Vivienne as a "person", but I felt empathy for them, they were well written and they had motivations and reasons on why they are what they are. Totally different from Liam.
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Post by Fredward on Aug 1, 2017 6:58:17 GMT
I didn't catch the reference but, for instance, witness this take on Bull. You can do this with the majority of DAI's core cast. There are layers of motivations, inner conflict, nuance. MEA's cast is, by and large, much less so. Don't know about that. For an example, I'd consider Liam as a character study of what happens when a person who does not have the title of the main character nor the plot armor that comes with it tries to do something crazy but well intentioned. It nearly ends up ruining the Initiative and he has to look rely on Ryder to get out of his situation that he created. Sure, but that kind of outsider looking in perspective is not what's being done with Bull. It's purely about his psychology, not so much as a character that was written but more like a person with the kind of messy and complicated snare of push and pull that makes you who you are. And it's intelligible and recognizable and relatable. Which makes him a well written character, by my definition. Not a novel interpretation of an archetype or an interesting contrast to the PC plot armored heroics.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 1, 2017 7:00:07 GMT
You realise, that the fact, that you hate him so much, the fact that he disguises you so much, only proves, what a good work BW have made with him. Because you know... you just dont like THIS KIND OF PERSON. Your hate finds place only towards his behaviour, actions, speech etc. Not because he is badly written. Just dont bring him on missions and dont speak with him, what's the problem To add my opinion, i really dont like how some characters are given more actual screen time than others. =\ I agree on the fact, that we lack critical thinking and are not given opportunities to punch, scream at people and be rude. "-F*** off, pathfinder -Ryder, i think, it would be unwise to start a confronta... - Just shut up, SAM. *reaches out for the asari sword* " No, that's different. There are characters I hate and characters, like George Martin said, I "love to hate". See my first post on Liam, it's on the bottom of the first page. I hate him because he's stupid AND he is extremely poor written. His dialogues are laughable of how bad they are, they look like they were written by a 12 year old. "That kett doesn't like me... maybe because I shot him on the face!" "Wow, it's crazy here, rocks are floating!" "I get a little pissed when people are trying to kill me!" Seriously, it's just pathetic. His loyalty mission was just the cherry on the top of the cake. I hate him like I hate Twilight. I didn't like Javik or Vivienne as a "person", but I felt empathy for them, they were well written and they had motivations and reasons on why they are what they are. Totally different from Liam. Liam's dialogue isn't really bad, there are far worse dialogue from companions in the MET.
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