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Post by smilesja on Aug 2, 2017 3:33:07 GMT
@trilobite_derby your comment reinforces my point. You described actions that contradict the character's beliefs, motives, and background. Realistic characters aren't usually distilled down to one note. And I didn't see contradictions so much as nuance and detail. But hey, your prerogative. Yeah there's usually layers behind a person motivations and personality.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Guts on Aug 2, 2017 3:37:31 GMT
Conceptually they had ideas, but it was executed terribly. We're not really allowed to explore this into much detail. The characters are not fully explored and aren't really affected by our actions. For instance, in Dragon Age inquisition, we can turn a virtuous woman like Cassandra into a drunk depending on our actions. Were allowed to explore the many different extremes of characters. In Andromeda, there's no extreme. The characters are just there and we aren't really allowed to explore them further. We have a bare bones concept of who they are and that's about it. I don't think they're well written at all. Nothing special to be honest. Let's just hope they expand on the characters in future installments.
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Post by Qolx on Aug 2, 2017 3:56:23 GMT
@trilobite_derby your comment reinforces my point. You described actions that contradict the character's beliefs, motives, and background. Realistic characters aren't usually distilled down to one note. And I didn't see contradictions so much as nuance and detail. But hey, your prerogative. I didn't see any nuance or detail. The characters are saying one thing and doing another. Let's file this one under different personal tastes.
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alihou
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by alihou on Aug 2, 2017 4:23:46 GMT
Conceptually they had ideas, but it was executed terribly. We're not really allowed to explore this into much detail. The characters are not fully explored and aren't really affected by our actions. For instance, in Dragon Age inquisition, we can turn a virtuous woman like Cassandra into a drunk depending on our actions. Were allowed to explore the many different extremes of characters. In Andromeda, there's no extreme. The characters are just there and we aren't really allowed to explore them further. We have a bare bones concept of who they are and that's about it. I don't think they're well written at all. Nothing special to be honest. we got to know the characters in the MET through blunt force trama. Through reams and reams of exposition. Not natural conversation. We were told. We weren't shown. In Andromeda we could effect our Characters and even drive them to certain extremes. However i find extremism to not be good writing. Quite the opposite infact. Most people aren't extremists. We tend to fall in the middle. And sure we can be driven to extremism at times...but on the other hand it would be a mistake to assume that Just because we can't drive them to extremes doesn't mean our choices don't matter. I'd agree with you, but we're talking video games where our main character is supposed to be the one influencing our surroundings. It also puts into account player agency and different outcomes when we are presented a situation. I'd like to know that as a player if I was acting a certain way I can influence a character to an extreme if I didn't properly display the right social skills. That is incredibly rewarding to me. In Andromeda I couldn't be angry at Liam, I really wanted him to hate me. He did some really idiotic stuff but at best I was slightly ticked and I continue to be his friend after. This was the case with the rest of the squad. As a player i'd like to be presented a chance to really voice my disapproval towards a character and even hold a grudge if I wanted to. This is why Dragon Age is very successful with its characters, because we can really mold them based on how we treat them. I feel like this is a more organic way of character interaction. Not perfect, but a lot more realistic to me.
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Post by abaris on Aug 2, 2017 10:55:23 GMT
I'd agree with you, but we're talking video games where our main character is supposed to be the one influencing our surroundings. It also puts into account player agency and different outcomes when we are presented a situation. I'd like to know that as a player if I was acting a certain way I can influence a character to an extreme if I didn't properly display the right social skills. That is incredibly rewarding to me. In Andromeda I couldn't be angry at Liam, I really wanted him to hate me. He did some really idiotic stuff but at best I was slightly ticked and I continue to be his friend after. This was the case with the rest of the squad. Peebee and the escape pot comes to mind. This was big and one of the moments, much more than the partially infantile dialogue, where I thought to be in a slapstick movie. You simply couldn't react in an appropriate manner. For all my Ryder knew, she got them stranded on a hostile asteroid. That didn't get any better by me knowing that this won't happen because it added yet another disconnect between me and the Ryder I was playing. I stand by what I always said. The one and only well written character was Drack. He got some depth to his story. A depth that only gets revealed once you earn his trust. As it should be in video games. With all the others you pretty much know what there is to know about them after the first couple of conversations.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 2, 2017 15:31:29 GMT
Eh, I'd say that even DA2's writing is overall stronger than most of Mass Effect. But then I'm squarely in the ME2-is-vastly-overrated crowd. I just can't agree. DA2 is a trainwreck on nearly every level. Maybe the character writing can be put next to ME's, but that would be it. I thought DA2 had plenty of strengths, myself. I liked the way the main plot subverted RPG conventions (admittedly, a minority taste;I'm one of those hipster elitists), and I thought the combat was substantially superior to DA:O. Hated the new art style, though.
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Post by abaris on Aug 2, 2017 16:58:52 GMT
I thought DA2 had plenty of strengths, myself. I liked the way the main plot subverted RPG conventions (admittedly, a minority taste;I'm one of those hipster elitists), and I thought the combat was substantially superior to DA:O. Hated the new art style, though. I played DA2 after MEA. When it first came out I fell victim to the hate train and didn't buy it. After MEA rather disappointed me I decided on giving DA2 a chance and boy was I wrong to hate it. The reused environments and the new combat style didn't bother me half as much as I thought. All in all, for me it was the better experience than MEA. I liked the companions and the personal journey of Hawke much better than what MEA provided.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 2, 2017 17:01:42 GMT
What I like about DA2 is the player can play a diplomatic hawke, a sarcastic Hawke and aggressive Hawke. Had the most fun playing sarcastic Hawke
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Post by colfoley on Aug 2, 2017 19:03:15 GMT
Actually speaking of DA 2 most of Andromedas best features were borrowed from the game. Namely its RPG mechanics focusing on personality rather then morality. And its character writing where you had to get to know your characters through their own story rather then just asking them a bunch of questions.
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Post by abaris on Aug 2, 2017 19:10:36 GMT
Actually speaking of DA 2 most of Andromedas best features were borrowed from the game. Namely its RPG mechanics focusing on personality rather then morality. And its character writing where you had to get to know your characters through their own story rather then just asking them a bunch of questions. No, absolutely not. In MEA they spill most of their beans in the first couple of conversations. Apart from Drack and to a lesser degree Peebee. Also the personal journey, if there even is one, falls flat on it's face as compared to Hawke.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 2, 2017 19:15:28 GMT
Actually speaking of DA 2 most of Andromedas best features were borrowed from the game. Namely its RPG mechanics focusing on personality rather then morality. And its character writing where you had to get to know your characters through their own story rather then just asking them a bunch of questions. No, absolutely not. In MEA they spill most of their beans in the first couple of conversations. Apart from Drack and to a lesser degree Peebee. Also the personal journey, if there even is one, falls flat on it's face as compared to Hawke. that's because there has never been a protag like Hawk. And they really don't. I suppose it might SEEM that way, after all they did not have an introduction quest like they did in DA 2. They had to do an awful lot of introducing in a couple of minutes. BUT. We got to learn more about the characters as the game progressed. That is if we made the right choices.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 21:39:49 GMT
Peebee and the escape pot comes to mind. This was big and one of the moments, much more than the partially infantile dialogue, where I thought to be in a slapstick movie. You simply couldn't react in an appropriate manner. For all my Ryder knew, she got them stranded on a hostile asteroid. That didn't get any better by me knowing that this won't happen because it added yet another disconnect between me and the Ryder I was playing. You mean the part where Ryder sucked it up and got on with it like a rational adult?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 22:22:48 GMT
Actually speaking of DA 2 most of Andromedas best features were borrowed from the game. Namely its RPG mechanics focusing on personality rather then morality. I'd agree that Andromeda's design sort of mimicked DA2's personality mechanic, but not that it was a great feature. Hawke, like Ryder, remains a rather controversial figure - some people love 'em, some hate 'em, many simply feel disconnected from them. ... which provides me with a segue to a little theory I'd like to advance. I'm going to suggest that the way players perceive other characters depends to some degree on how they feel about their PC. Shepard is the living, breathing embodiment of the archetypal military action-adventure hero that we've seen over and over again in story after story. S/he suffers setback after setback, struggles to gain support from relevant authority figures, but ultimately emerges not only right but victorious. We've seen this archetype so many times and in so many different forms, that slipping into this character's shoes as a role-play PC is pretty much automatic. We understand military and political organizations, as we've seen them many times in fiction. Ryder doesn't really fit any particular archetype. Her background is a little vague, as is her role as a Pathfinder. (Personally, I found it an interesting challenge to define that role, as my character was the first person to ever really fill it for very long.) Like Hawke, people figure out who Ryder is as they play along - and a lot of people aren't particularly comfortable with that. The character's youth and inexperience don't help, either. The Andromeda Initiative, too, is not fully understood, and is also controversial. We've seen a lot of arguments about why anyone would join the Ai, why they'd send unarmed ships and ground vehicles, etc. So - the easy acceptance of Shepard and her sponsoring organization does not extend to Ryder. It's also possible that the misgivings about the whole Ai in general are being applied to all of the people who joined the group and went to Andromeda. The bottom line for me, though, is that I do feel the Andromeda characters were every bit as well-written as any from the OT, but there are other factors that create perception problems.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 2, 2017 23:06:22 GMT
Actually speaking of DA 2 most of Andromedas best features were borrowed from the game. Namely its RPG mechanics focusing on personality rather then morality. I'd agree that Andromeda's design sort of mimicked DA2's personality mechanic, but not that it was a great feature. Hawke, like Ryder, remains a rather controversial figure - some people love 'em, some hate 'em, many simply feel disconnected from them. ... which provides me with a segue to a little theory I'd like to advance. I'm going to suggest that the way players perceive other characters depends to some degree on how they feel about their PC. Shepard is the living, breathing embodiment of the archetypal military action-adventure hero that we've seen over and over again in story after story. S/he suffers setback after setback, struggles to gain support from relevant authority figures, but ultimately emerges not only right but victorious. We've seen this archetype so many times and in so many different forms, that slipping into this character's shoes as a role-play PC is pretty much automatic. We understand military and political organizations, as we've seen them many times in fiction. Ryder doesn't really fit any particular archetype. Her background is a little vague, as is her role as a Pathfinder. (Personally, I found it an interesting challenge to define that role, as my character was the first person to ever really fill it for very long.) Like Hawke, people figure out who Ryder is as they play along - and a lot of people aren't particularly comfortable with that. The character's youth and inexperience don't help, either. The Andromeda Initiative, too, is not fully understood, and is also controversial. We've seen a lot of arguments about why anyone would join the Ai, why they'd send unarmed ships and ground vehicles, etc. So - the easy acceptance of Shepard and her sponsoring organization does not extend to Ryder. It's also possible that the misgivings about the whole Ai in general are being applied to all of the people who joined the group and went to Andromeda. The bottom line for me, though, is that I do feel the Andromeda characters were every bit as well-written as any from the OT, but there are other factors that create perception problems. in theory that should make Ryder the better of the two for pure roleplay...but i think you are largely right. Its the same reason that i argue character back stories and sometimes limiting your dialogue options are sometimes better for roleplay....although for different reasons. The easier it is to roleplay the better we can do it. Although let's face it some people really wanna be a dick.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 23:36:26 GMT
I'd agree that Andromeda's design sort of mimicked DA2's personality mechanic, but not that it was a great feature. Hawke, like Ryder, remains a rather controversial figure - some people love 'em, some hate 'em, many simply feel disconnected from them. ... which provides me with a segue to a little theory I'd like to advance. I'm going to suggest that the way players perceive other characters depends to some degree on how they feel about their PC. Shepard is the living, breathing embodiment of the archetypal military action-adventure hero that we've seen over and over again in story after story. S/he suffers setback after setback, struggles to gain support from relevant authority figures, but ultimately emerges not only right but victorious. We've seen this archetype so many times and in so many different forms, that slipping into this character's shoes as a role-play PC is pretty much automatic. We understand military and political organizations, as we've seen them many times in fiction. Ryder doesn't really fit any particular archetype. Her background is a little vague, as is her role as a Pathfinder. (Personally, I found it an interesting challenge to define that role, as my character was the first person to ever really fill it for very long.) Like Hawke, people figure out who Ryder is as they play along - and a lot of people aren't particularly comfortable with that. The character's youth and inexperience don't help, either. The Andromeda Initiative, too, is not fully understood, and is also controversial. We've seen a lot of arguments about why anyone would join the Ai, why they'd send unarmed ships and ground vehicles, etc. So - the easy acceptance of Shepard and her sponsoring organization does not extend to Ryder. It's also possible that the misgivings about the whole Ai in general are being applied to all of the people who joined the group and went to Andromeda. The bottom line for me, though, is that I do feel the Andromeda characters were every bit as well-written as any from the OT, but there are other factors that create perception problems. in theory that should make Ryder the better of the two for pure roleplay...but i think you are largely right. Its the same reason that i argue character back stories and sometimes limiting your dialogue options are sometimes better for roleplay....although for different reasons. The easier it is to roleplay the better we can do it. Although let's face it some people really wanna be a dick. I think it really depends on the player, and how they view role-play. Personally, I've never been able to role-play Hawke. The best I can do with Hawke is use her as the (N)PC that takes me through a branching narrative. She doesn't seem to have any personal goals beyond Act 1, she just sort of reacts to what's going on around her. I learned pretty quickly not to try to assign any motives to her choices, since her actual dialogue frequently contradicts what I might have had in mind. I had quite a few disconnects between the paraphrase and what she actually said. Ryder is a lot easier for me, and I think there are several reasons for that: 1) MEA allows me to take most conversations with NPCs per my own schedule. DA2 assigns follower conversations like quests. 2) MEA offers a variety of different types of content, and multiple sub-goals that all support the overall mission of a Pathfinder. By that I mean improving planetary viability, gathering resources, forming associations with the angarans, trying to stabilize political feuds (Sloane/Reyes, Krogan Colony), finding missing Arks, etc. Being able to choose from all of that content really helps me define Ryder's motives and priorities. 3) The tonal shades are very nuanced. There are only a few places where Ryder's reaction is what I would consider extreme. I do think that BioWare has gotten a lot better at writing voiced protags that people can more easily role-play. DAI as well as MEA are huge improvements over their predecessors in that vein.
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ATR16
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
Origin: ATR16
XBL Gamertag: pydsie31
PSN: pyder31
Posts: 367 Likes: 603
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Post by ATR16 on Aug 3, 2017 0:09:07 GMT
I actually think the character writing is one of ME:A's weaker aspects. They don't feel like real people to me as they are all very focused on one single aspect of themselves, that the writer seemed to try and beat down on in almost every single conversation you have with them. Comparing them to other BW characters they lack dimentionality in my opinion, they are too focused. Real people have more than one personality trait and while it is important to highlight a character's primary motivations and goals in order to make them memorable ME:A is overdoing it on that front to the point where most squad mates annoy me. In addition, most of their major personality traits are not very complex but can be boiled down to very simple premises and even worse, these characters self analyze a lot. It's not something people do a lot in the real world usually but these guys tend to explain to Ryder why they are the way they are, rather then letting Ryder (or the player) figuring it out by themselves. Jaal is a good example for this when he tells you (in one of his first conversations when he doesn't even know the other races at all yet) how they are very openly emotional and vocal because they live in these large families, etc., etc. But he's not the only one. Most of these character seem to follow a tell, don't show approach and that IMO takes a lot of fun out of getting to know them. If you spill almost everything there is in your first conversation and repeat it over and over alter, the routine gets old quick. For me, it actually got to the point where doing my rounds of the Tempest got more of a chore (and this is coming from someone who loved going around the Normandy). So sorry OP, can't agree with you there. Yes, they each have their arcs, but I don't consider that enough for actual good character writing. As for Ryder, I agree, s/he is better constructed as a character within a story. Not sure if s/he is the better player avatar though. I definitely felt I had more input into the character of Shepard then Ryder. There is a trade-off there and it's very much a matter of taste where you want the player character to fall on that spectrum. This is the same thing to me. It also bothered me how they all were like "Hmm you have a different opinion but I understand your side and lets be friends". Not that having some characters that get along is bad, but having other dynamics makes them feel like real people. Jack and Miranda wanting to tear each other in half, but then Garrus and Tali are pals. Grunt and Zaeed weren't necessarily friendss, but they understood and shared experiences and were perfectly amicable with each other. The point about characters telling so much also is a flaw in the writing to me. Show, don't tell is a very basic writing concept in movies/tv/games. The characters tell you what they are and how they are more often than acting that way. Its kind of a whole thing with the game. You're told how strange and alien everything is compared to the MW, but there is such familiarity with the colonies and everything that you could say the game was set somewhere in the Terminus or Far Rim that I would have believed it.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 3, 2017 1:24:57 GMT
in theory that should make Ryder the better of the two for pure roleplay...but i think you are largely right. Its the same reason that i argue character back stories and sometimes limiting your dialogue options are sometimes better for roleplay....although for different reasons. The easier it is to roleplay the better we can do it. Although let's face it some people really wanna be a dick. I think it really depends on the player, and how they view role-play. Personally, I've never been able to role-play Hawke. The best I can do with Hawke is use her as the (N)PC that takes me through a branching narrative. She doesn't seem to have any personal goals beyond Act 1, she just sort of reacts to what's going on around her. I learned pretty quickly not to try to assign any motives to her choices, since her actual dialogue frequently contradicts what I might have had in mind. I had quite a few disconnects between the paraphrase and what she actually said. Ryder is a lot easier for me, and I think there are several reasons for that: 1) MEA allows me to take most conversations with NPCs per my own schedule. DA2 assigns follower conversations like quests. 2) MEA offers a variety of different types of content, and multiple sub-goals that all support the overall mission of a Pathfinder. By that I mean improving planetary viability, gathering resources, forming associations with the angarans, trying to stabilize political feuds (Sloane/Reyes, Krogan Colony), finding missing Arks, etc. Being able to choose from all of that content really helps me define Ryder's motives and priorities. 3) The tonal shades are very nuanced. There are only a few places where Ryder's reaction is what I would consider extreme. I do think that BioWare has gotten a lot better at writing voiced protags that people can more easily role-play. DAI as well as MEA are huge improvements over their predecessors in that vein. I personally really liked hawk but you are right. Hawk came off as being really bi polar sometimes. Anyways something else I remembered from your post earlier which i don't think helps... As I've said to me from a character standpoint Shepard was an incredibly weak character. But he was a catalyst, a pivot point, because of him...or better yet because of exposure to him...most of his crew went on powerful character arcs and many of them became leaders of their people. But with Andromeda Ryder is the star of the show. They go on a character arc. As well as their crew. Couple that with the overall size of the game and a first installment of a series almost is never a character piece...no wonder the characters maybe got lost a bit.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 3, 2017 1:31:26 GMT
I actually think the character writing is one of ME:A's weaker aspects. They don't feel like real people to me as they are all very focused on one single aspect of themselves, that the writer seemed to try and beat down on in almost every single conversation you have with them. Comparing them to other BW characters they lack dimentionality in my opinion, they are too focused. Real people have more than one personality trait and while it is important to highlight a character's primary motivations and goals in order to make them memorable ME:A is overdoing it on that front to the point where most squad mates annoy me. In addition, most of their major personality traits are not very complex but can be boiled down to very simple premises and even worse, these characters self analyze a lot. It's not something people do a lot in the real world usually but these guys tend to explain to Ryder why they are the way they are, rather then letting Ryder (or the player) figuring it out by themselves. Jaal is a good example for this when he tells you (in one of his first conversations when he doesn't even know the other races at all yet) how they are very openly emotional and vocal because they live in these large families, etc., etc. But he's not the only one. Most of these character seem to follow a tell, don't show approach and that IMO takes a lot of fun out of getting to know them. If you spill almost everything there is in your first conversation and repeat it over and over alter, the routine gets old quick. For me, it actually got to the point where doing my rounds of the Tempest got more of a chore (and this is coming from someone who loved going around the Normandy). So sorry OP, can't agree with you there. Yes, they each have their arcs, but I don't consider that enough for actual good character writing. As for Ryder, I agree, s/he is better constructed as a character within a story. Not sure if s/he is the better player avatar though. I definitely felt I had more input into the character of Shepard then Ryder. There is a trade-off there and it's very much a matter of taste where you want the player character to fall on that spectrum. This is the same thing to me. It also bothered me how they all were like "Hmm you have a different opinion but I understand your side and lets be friends". Not that having some characters that get along is bad, but having other dynamics makes them feel like real people. Jack and Miranda wanting to tear each other in half, but then Garrus and Tali are pals. Grunt and Zaeed weren't necessarily friendss, but they understood and shared experiences and were perfectly amicable with each other. The point about characters telling so much also is a flaw in the writing to me. Show, don't tell is a very basic writing concept in movies/tv/games. The characters tell you what they are and how they are more often than acting that way. Its kind of a whole thing with the game. You're told how strange and alien everything is compared to the MW, but there is such familiarity with the colonies and everything that you could say the game was set somewhere in the Terminus or Far Rim that I would have believed it. People can disagree with each other and still be friends.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 3, 2017 1:35:27 GMT
This is the same thing to me. It also bothered me how they all were like "Hmm you have a different opinion but I understand your side and lets be friends". Not that having some characters that get along is bad, but having other dynamics makes them feel like real people. Jack and Miranda wanting to tear each other in half, but then Garrus and Tali are pals. Grunt and Zaeed weren't necessarily friendss, but they understood and shared experiences and were perfectly amicable with each other. The point about characters telling so much also is a flaw in the writing to me. Show, don't tell is a very basic writing concept in movies/tv/games. The characters tell you what they are and how they are more often than acting that way. Its kind of a whole thing with the game. You're told how strange and alien everything is compared to the MW, but there is such familiarity with the colonies and everything that you could say the game was set somewhere in the Terminus or Far Rim that I would have believed it. People can disagree with each other and still be friends. hell even Jack and Miranda made peace by Citadel.
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