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Post by vonuber on Aug 1, 2017 18:46:58 GMT
Liam is not badly written as his character is pretty consistent in how he behaves and what he does and believes.
You make not like who he is or how he acts, but that is a different thing altogether.
Personally he never leaves the ship for me, but then the same could be said for most of the previous lot of walking daddy issues.
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 1, 2017 18:48:56 GMT
"Well, I like Liam because he is just like me"
Well, I hope they never choose a person "like you", a person that gives vital information to strangers out of nowhere, a person with absolutely zero competence, to colonize a new galaxy.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 1, 2017 18:51:30 GMT
Because he has an opinion you don't like? No. Because he makes an authoritative statement in his thread title as if it were an unassailable truth of nature. You do see the difference? A slight change would have eliminated my objection - "Why I feel the chars of MEA were blah blah blah". This is all opinion. Almost every praise thread colfoley makes has a title that is similar, and he handles argument better than that so I don't get it. It is silly. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I do not feel a need to qualify statements as obviously opinions when they are obviously opinions. Granted to me my opinion is pretty sound. You may like or dislike the Characters personally but that is a different conversation to how well they are written. I don't like Liam as a person...over much...but imo he's one of the most fascinating characters bioware has ever done.
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Post by abaris on Aug 1, 2017 18:54:34 GMT
I don't like Liam as a person...over much...but imo he's one of the most fascinating characters bioware has ever done. Based on what, other than your opinion? As compared to all of them in every game? You can't be serious.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 1, 2017 18:57:30 GMT
I don't like Liam as a person...over much...but imo he's one of the most fascinating characters bioware has ever done. Based on what, other than your opinion? As compared to all of them in every game? You can't be serious. I'm very serious its rare that Bioware has done a constant screwup character. I can think of only one other example in the six other bioware games I've played.
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Post by abaris on Aug 1, 2017 19:01:38 GMT
I'm very serious its rare that Bioware has done a constant screwup character. I can think of only one other example in the six other bioware games I've played. Yeah, great. They created an all out loser and put him on your crew. Fascinating indeed.
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Post by vonuber on Aug 1, 2017 19:02:11 GMT
An example of bad writing is Cerberus Cheerleader in Chief Miranda who right at the end of the suicide misison - despite defending Cerberus throughout the entire game, and it even being the subject of a loyalty check with Jack - suddenly goes "Yeah whatevs Tim". It would have been far more interesting to keep her consistent and have her fight shep at that point, or actually build it up during the game as evidence piles on evidence. They even gave an easy option with Pragia to do that.
Still, ME2, best of the series etc.
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 1, 2017 19:03:19 GMT
Based on what, other than your opinion? As compared to all of them in every game? You can't be serious. I'm very serious its rare that Bioware has done a constant screwup character. I can think of only one other example in the six other bioware games I've played. Hmm I'm trying to think of another one. I've played KOTOR, SWTOR, ME1-3, DAO, and MEA.
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Post by Steelcan on Aug 1, 2017 19:11:53 GMT
I mean there's a difference between a clearly intended constant screw up, and characters who can be made to look like them or interpreted as such.
It is not hard to characterize Sera, Liara, Loghain, Isabela, Hawke, and a few others as constant screw ups.
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Post by Steelcan on Aug 1, 2017 19:13:59 GMT
An example of bad writing is Cerberus Cheerleader in Chief Miranda who right at the end of the suicide misison - despite defending Cerberus throughout the entire game, and it even being the subject of a loyalty check with Jack - suddenly goes "Yeah whatevs Tim". It would have been far more interesting to keep her consistent and have her fight shep at that point, or actually build it up during the game as evidence piles on evidence. They even gave an easy option with Pragia to do that. Still, ME2, best of the series etc. ME2 also has the brilliance that is Mordin and Legion. Sure it might have characters every bit as badly put together as Andromeda, but by the same token it also has some who rise well above it. There are some conversations in MEA that rise above the drudgery and skull numbing stupidity of the dialogue as a whole, but they are few and far between.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 1, 2017 19:18:17 GMT
An example of bad writing is Cerberus Cheerleader in Chief Miranda who right at the end of the suicide misison - despite defending Cerberus throughout the entire game, and it even being the subject of a loyalty check with Jack - suddenly goes "Yeah whatevs Tim". It would have been far more interesting to keep her consistent and have her fight shep at that point, or actually build it up during the game as evidence piles on evidence. They even gave an easy option with Pragia to do that. I agree with all of that. ME2, despite being a fun game to play with some interesting characters and arcade action, is really not the best game of the series. Space Baby Terminator is outlandish, Space Jesus Shepard is just beyond words and such a disappointment, and yes Miranda was not a good character, neither was Jacob. ME3 has the best gameplay, but is an on-rails interactive movie with killing stuff in-between. So, I vote ME1 for best in the series, just for the lore and world building despite some recycled assets on planets. It was very fresh, for me, even though the storyline was somewhat (KotOR) familiar. ... Just because I don't praise MEA doesn't mean everything prior was perfect and that's why I liked/loved/played those games. This discussion wasn't a comparison of MEA to the trilogy, or anything else for that matter as far as I read, until you decided it needed to be.
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Post by abaris on Aug 1, 2017 19:20:58 GMT
It is not hard to characterize Sera, Liara, Loghain, Isabela, Hawke, and a few others as constant screw ups. Wrongly so I would say. They're everything but screwups. They have their faults but depending on what you do ingame, they can rise or fall. At least Loghain and Isabella. How Hawke even makes this list is beyond me. Same with Sera and Liara.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 1, 2017 19:22:41 GMT
And they are bad only to you. Speak for yourself and not to others since you don't know what they think. Did you interview every Mass Effect Andromeda player to know what they think about Liam's lines and dialogues? no I only speak for myself when it comes to things like characters.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 1, 2017 19:24:23 GMT
"Well, I like Liam because he is just like me" Well, I hope they never choose a person "like you", a person that gives vital information to strangers out of nowhere, a person with absolutely zero competence, to colonize a new galaxy. I think the person meant in terms of personality.
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Post by vonuber on Aug 1, 2017 19:29:26 GMT
ME2 also has the brilliance that is Mordin and Legion. True, and they threw legion under the bus in 3. Mordin is pretty much the only one who comes out unscathed, and even then he is better either with Wreav alive or being shot with Wrex alive. This discussion wasn't a comparison of MEA to the trilogy, or anything else for that matter as far as I read, until you decided it needed to be. The discussion was about characters being well written, I am pointing out there is a difference between disliking a character (who is internally consistent in attitude and motivations, or who changes for recognisable reasons) and just straight bad writing. Liam is the former, Miranda is the latter.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2017 19:31:04 GMT
Read thread title, knew only one person on this forum has simultaneously the arrogance and the obliviousness to make this post. No. Very true, nothing can compare to Miranda moaning about her sister whilst her arse occupies 2/3rds of the screen. That's top quality right there. But Cora was somehow written better right? One talks about their body while the other talks about Asari Commando's. Cora is pretty much a copy/paste of Miranda with a different issue.
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Post by Steelcan on Aug 1, 2017 19:32:19 GMT
ME2 also has the brilliance that is Mordin and Legion. True, and they threw legion under the bus in 3. Mordin is pretty much the only one who comes out unscathed, and even then he is better either with Wreav alive or being shot with Wrex alive. We're not walking about ME3 though. Unless you think it is fair to compare Andromeda to more than one Mass Effect OT game at a time
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Post by Steelcan on Aug 1, 2017 19:33:04 GMT
Very true, nothing can compare to Miranda moaning about her sister whilst her arse occupies 2/3rds of the screen. That's top quality right there. But Cora was somehow written better right? One talks about their body while the other talks about Asari Commando's. Cora is pretty much a copy/paste of Miranda with a different issue. She even looks like she was ripped out of Miranda's concept art page
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Post by vonuber on Aug 1, 2017 19:37:02 GMT
True, and they threw legion under the bus in 3. Mordin is pretty much the only one who comes out unscathed, and even then he is better either with Wreav alive or being shot with Wrex alive. We're not walking about ME3 though. Unless you think it is fair to compare Andromeda to more than one Mass Effect OT game at a time Wasn't a comparison, just merely a commentary on how I feel about them as characters. I don't think anyone in ME:A matches up to Mordin, not even close. Very true, nothing can compare to Miranda moaning about her sister whilst her arse occupies 2/3rds of the screen. That's top quality right there. But Cora was somehow written better right? One talks about their body while the other talks about Asari Commando's. Cora is pretty much a copy/paste of Miranda with a different issue. But again, at least she grows and changes as a character through the game when confronted with reality - all within one game. By the end of the game she is different than the beginning. Note I am not saying whether I like her as a character, just that she does actually have an arc to go through. Miranda over two bloody games still has exactly the same thing going on, notwhistanding her complete change at the end of ME2. Though obviously not that much of a change, given she turns up in a Cerberus uniform in ME3 Again - not liking a character doesn't mean they are badly written.
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Post by Qolx on Aug 1, 2017 19:37:16 GMT
I think the Andro characters are badly written because their beliefs are contradicted by their actions and motives.
Drack: Believes he is useless for a new Krogan society, he does not have anything to contribute. But joins a project that will result in a new Krogan society anyways. Jaal: Believes he must have a promotion within the resistance to find fullfillment and belonging. Despite the fact that the Angara place greater importance on family bonds over hierarchy.
Cora: Believes that she has to rely on others for her own purpose. Despite the fact that she grew up in poverty, experienced discrimination as a Human biotic, and probably had to fend for herself.
Vetra: Believes her sister is not old enough, or capable enough to understand her works, she wants to protect her from growing up to fast like she did. Thus becoming an overbearing Hammerhead "mom" that smothers her sister's growth.
Peebee: Believes that it is easier to keep people at a distance then let them in close because of a betryal of a close friend. By quickly attaching herself to Ryder. Liam: Believes that since none of their objectives in the Andromeda Galaxy has worked out, he has to force everything to happen. Contradicting his years of training that emphasized procedure.
With the exception of Jaal, none of these characters have a compelling reason to be in Andromeda other than perhaps they wanted to get away from their past yet brought all their past baggage with them. Jaal has his own special baggage which is shared with the rest of the Angara in that they were created by someone else for reasons unknown (ie the writer's didn't get to that in time, probably). The Angara are even less compelling than the Geth.
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Post by Steelcan on Aug 1, 2017 19:37:55 GMT
It is not hard to characterize Sera, Liara, Loghain, Isabela, Hawke, and a few others as constant screw ups. Wrongly so I would say. They're everything but screwups. They have their faults but depending on what you do ingame, they can rise or fall. At least Loghain and Isabella. How Hawke even makes this list is beyond me. Same with Sera and Liara. Hawke can't save anyone, his sibling, mother, city, chosen faction he sides with. Hawke lurches from one disaster to another. When we first meet Liara, she's accidentally locked herself into a stasis bubble and it only goes downhill from there. Her assistant in ME2 is spying on her and planning to have her assassinated and would have done so if Shepard hadn't intervened. Liara manages to take the entire organization of the Shadow Broker and....do nothing with it. She can't find Cerberus's base, but a junior communications officer can, she can't find out about the krogan females, she can't do anything. Now maybe you say its not a screw up since she didn't know about any of those things, but in her line of work, that is most definitely a screw up.
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Post by vonuber on Aug 1, 2017 19:38:29 GMT
She even looks like she was ripped out of Miranda's concept art page I think it is clear there are a lot of ME:A - MET character type overlaps, which is a tad disappointing.
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 1, 2017 19:46:28 GMT
Did you interview every Mass Effect Andromeda player to know what they think about Liam's lines and dialogues? no I only speak for myself when it comes to things like characters. Well, then don't say they are bad "only" for me.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 1, 2017 20:02:25 GMT
I'm very serious its rare that Bioware has done a constant screwup character. I can think of only one other example in the six other bioware games I've played. Yeah, great. They created an all out loser and put him on your crew. Fascinating indeed. don't you realize how important that is for games? Most game characters are type A super heroes. They Makw mistakes but even then they are glossedb over. Not the crew of the tempest. They are humans who can make mistakes led by a human leader.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 1, 2017 20:04:06 GMT
no I only speak for myself when it comes to things like characters. Well, then don't say they are bad "only" for me. It's your opinion that a characters dialogue is bad.
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