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Post by bossattack on Aug 14, 2017 20:57:16 GMT
Because segregation has always been a good idea... Man, I wish there was less snark and more thought in this world. Think about movies and books. It's a Venn Diagram. Chick/Neutral/Dudes. Bioware has been trying to straddle the middle. I'm not sure it's working. A lot of guys feel the Chick circle is bigger than the Dude's. Again, please try to think outside this echo chamber, to the wider male gaming audience. It's averages that count, not our own, "I think ... is hot/ugly!" Please, stop saying "a lot of guys" and just refer to yourself. I, and most other male players, are fine with the characters BioWare creates. I don't need digital "hot babez" to jerk my dick off to as I play.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 14, 2017 21:05:50 GMT
I didn't mean to insinuate that. But yeah, that's how it came out. What I meant was: Holy crap! Imagine what Amy Hennig could do with her own studio, truckloads of money, and no male gamer expectations to worry about! I am pleased with what BioWARE does, and will continue to purchase their games and enjoy them. If you do not, I suggest you purchase something else and enjoy that. I have never believed in the whole "men are from Mars, women are from Venus". I believe that we feel, laugh, grieve and game the same. I do not believe in irreconcilable differences between the sexes. I believe that we can have a blast playing the same games, and even (gasp!) playing together. I invite you to do so. Or not. That's your choice.
Fair enough, but how do you think an Amy H game might differ from a Bioware game? It would certainly differ from W3. It's an interesting thought.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 14, 2017 21:09:01 GMT
Man, I wish there was less snark and more thought in this world. Think about movies and books. It's a Venn Diagram. Chick/Neutral/Dudes. Bioware has been trying to straddle the middle. I'm not sure it's working. A lot of guys feel the Chick circle is bigger than the Dude's. Again, please try to think outside this echo chamber, to the wider male gaming audience. It's averages that count, not our own, "I think ... is hot/ugly!" Please, stop saying "a lot of guys" and just refer to yourself. I, and most other male players, are fine with the characters BioWare creates. I don't need digital "hot babez" to jerk my dick off to as I play. Media corporations don't think in terms of individuals. They see only averages, cohorts, demographics, target audiences. They need to target large groups. That's why I'm trying to get above personal desires.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2017 21:11:48 GMT
Because segregation has always been a good idea... Man, I wish there was less snark and more thought in this world. Think about movies and books. It's a Venn Diagram. Chick/Neutral/Dudes. Bioware has been trying to straddle the middle. I'm not sure it's working. A lot of guys feel the Chick circle is bigger than the Dude's. Again, please try to think outside this echo chamber, to the wider male gaming audience. It's averages that count, not our own, "I think ... is hot/ugly!" I appreciate it probably wasn't your intention, but saying "women should have their own dev" comes across as saying 99% of games should cater exclusively to your average straight males. The reality is, the vast majority of gamers don't decide whether to buy a game based on whether a woman looks like a pornstar or not.
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Post by rras1994 on Aug 14, 2017 21:15:46 GMT
I am happy with BioWARE's products. I've met men satisfied with BioWARE's products. I met women not satisfied with BioWARE products. It takes all sorts. No one game will ever please everyone. The more niche the individual player's preferences are, the less games are out there for them to chose from.
In MEA, I find the romantic options balanced and pleasing fwiw.
BioWARE is my gaming developer of choice since 1999. If you have problems with BioWARE, maybe it should be you looking for another AAA developer. Not insinuate that I should sit and wait for an RPG that is "appropriate" for a girl, because, OMG, I must deep down real yearn to play sh*t like Twilight.
I didn't mean to insinuate that. But yeah, that's how it came out. What I meant was: Holy crap! Imagine what Amy Hennig could do with her own studio, truckloads of money, and no male gamer expectations to worry about! Why do I need to wonder that? She's already making games as is that turn out well. Heck, she's currently making a Star Wars game with EA now. And also probably doesn't care about male gamer expectations. Neither does Bioware seem to either! There! You got what you wanted - they seem to want to make good games that THEY want to make
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 14, 2017 21:19:17 GMT
I didn't mean to insinuate that. But yeah, that's how it came out. What I meant was: Holy crap! Imagine what Amy Hennig could do with her own studio, truckloads of money, and no male gamer expectations to worry about! Why do I need to wonder that? She's already making games as is that turn out well. Heck, she's currently making a Star Wars game with EA now. And also probably doesn't care about male gamer expectations. Neither does Bioware seem to either! There! You got what you wanted - they seem to want to make good games that THEY want to make Good point. But I still can't help but wonder if it would look different if she was given total free reign. A Margaret Atwood or Alice Munro story is very different from a Jonathan Franzen one.
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Post by tjmitchem on Aug 14, 2017 21:29:27 GMT
Man, I wish there was less snark and more thought in this world. Think about movies and books. It's a Venn Diagram. Chick/Neutral/Dudes. Bioware has been trying to straddle the middle. I'm not sure it's working. A lot of guys feel the Chick circle is bigger than the Dude's. Again, please try to think outside this echo chamber, to the wider male gaming audience. It's averages that count, not our own, "I think ... is hot/ugly!" Please, stop saying "a lot of guys" and just refer to yourself. I, and most other male players, are fine with the characters BioWare creates. I don't need digital "hot babez" to jerk my dick off to as I play. So, you basically told him not to claim that he's representative of male players, then turned around and claimed that you're representative of male players in the next sentence. "I, and most other male players" Feeling the irony here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2017 21:30:22 GMT
I am pleased with what BioWARE does, and will continue to purchase their games and enjoy them. If you do not, I suggest you purchase something else and enjoy that. I have never believed in the whole "men are from Mars, women are from Venus". I believe that we feel, laugh, grieve and game the same. I do not believe in irreconcilable differences between the sexes. I believe that we can have a blast playing the same games, and even (gasp!) playing together. I invite you to do so. Or not. That's your choice.
Fair enough, but how do you think an Amy H game might differ from a Bioware game? It would certainly differ from W3. It's an interesting thought. I don't know. I hope that if a female in the game's developing field is qualified for the job, she will apply for the job and should she get the position, she will do the job well and in cooperation with her male colleagues. . And that both males and females will play the resulting product if it suits their tastes. And won't if it doesn't appeal to them. I neither want, nor expect anything else. I absolutely do not request and expect the All-Female Game Design AAA Task Force to be created. I think it would be an idiocy.
I like BioWARE games just the way they are & I am not complaining.
For the record, my husband is watching the Handmaiden's Tale and thinks it's interesting, while I think it's a pretentious PoS with an idiotic premise.
I suggest you stick to what really specifically bothers you, like asking for better hair physics that will allow for the glam haircuts in FB or better make-up options that will allow for smoky eye presentation, instead of trying to look for a divide in the fandom.
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Post by bossattack on Aug 14, 2017 21:34:07 GMT
Please, stop saying "a lot of guys" and just refer to yourself. I, and most other male players, are fine with the characters BioWare creates. I don't need digital "hot babez" to jerk my dick off to as I play. So, you basically told him not to claim that he's representative of male players, then turned around and claimed that you're representative of male players in the next sentence. "I, and most other male players" Feeling the irony here. Because the numbers back me up. If his assertion were true then Dragon Age: Inquisition would have sold like dumpster fire and be the subject of hate for most male players. It wasn't. It was a massive success both critically and commercially. Only weirdos complain that there weren't enough tits in their face and tush brought the whole game down. It's the same idiotic weirdos that claim "SJWs ruined Mass Effect: Andromeda."
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Post by rras1994 on Aug 14, 2017 21:34:55 GMT
Why do I need to wonder that? She's already making games as is that turn out well. Heck, she's currently making a Star Wars game with EA now. And also probably doesn't care about male gamer expectations. Neither does Bioware seem to either! There! You got what you wanted - they seem to want to make good games that THEY want to make Good point. But I still can't help but wonder if it would look different if she was given total free reign. A Margaret Atwood or Alice Munro story is very different from a Jonathan Franzen one. Do you think women only like things produced by other women? Do you think that there's a single set of things we all agree to like? There's no such thing as a "typical" girl - I've only met one or two that fit that stereotype. Everyone has different tastes and likes different things. That's the reason there's so many guys in this thread that say they liked the DAI and MEA romances when you didn't. That doesn't mean they have bad taste or aren't the "average" male gamer. It just meant they liked different things than you - alot of other people would have had to agree with them cus DAI sold well. MEA doesn't seem to have sold badly either, and even the people who didn't like it don't mention LI looks - they mention animation, story. If you don't like MEA or DAI, just play another game. I'm sure there's plenty of other games that will cater to you. Just cus this one doesn't, doesn't make it a bad game.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Aug 14, 2017 21:41:39 GMT
I think Cassandra is awesome, and is exactly the kind of a female character I want to see in a video-game. Cool. Many women probably feel the same. I hope we see more of her. Men too. Like me.
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Post by tjmitchem on Aug 14, 2017 21:50:15 GMT
So, you basically told him not to claim that he's representative of male players, then turned around and claimed that you're representative of male players in the next sentence. "I, and most other male players" Feeling the irony here. Because the numbers back me up. If his assertion were true then Dragon Age: Inquisition would have sold like dumpster fire and be the subject of hate for most male players. Why didn't you point this out in your initial reply to him then? You didn't back your statement up with anything, so it just came off as hypocrisy. FYI, I have no dog in this fight. I play video games so I can shoot shit, blow shit up and push people out windows. Something that the Mass Effect series has provided me in abundance
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Post by bshep on Aug 14, 2017 21:52:48 GMT
Cool. Many women probably feel the same. I hope we see more of her. Men too. Like me. Me too.
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Post by bossattack on Aug 14, 2017 21:59:31 GMT
Because the numbers back me up. If his assertion were true then Dragon Age: Inquisition would have sold like dumpster fire and be the subject of hate for most male players. Why didn't you point this out in your initial reply to him then? You didn't back your statement up with anything, so it just came off as hypocrisy. FYI, I have no dog in this fight. I play video games so I can shoot shit, blow shit up and push people out windows. Something that the Mass Effect series has provided me in abundance Why would I need to? It's self-evident that this is the case from the reception and sales of games like DAI. And, if "hot babez" were really a concern that fans cared so much about then BioWare would have responded about such concerns by now.
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Post by tjmitchem on Aug 14, 2017 22:08:01 GMT
Why didn't you point this out in your initial reply to him then? You didn't back your statement up with anything, so it just came off as hypocrisy. FYI, I have no dog in this fight. I play video games so I can shoot shit, blow shit up and push people out windows. Something that the Mass Effect series has provided me in abundance Why would I need to? It's self-evident that this is the case from the reception and sales of games like DAI. And, if "hot babez" were really a concern that fans cared so much about then BioWare would have responded about such concerns by now. I have no idea about the sales of DAI and similar games. I didn't play DAI, or any other DA, because I'm not really into fantasy any more. I would also think that if "hot babez" is a concern for someone, that doesn't necessarily make for a deal-breaker on the sale. For example, I like eye candy just as much as anyone, and I found a lot of the people in ME:A, male and female both, to be pretty fucking scary looking. It's not a deal-breaker for me because I care more about shooting things in the face. A lot more.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 14, 2017 22:22:43 GMT
And there we have it. "Be inclusive, but not too inclusive." Nope, bring it all on. I've argued before that maybe women need their own AAA dev. Do you think male and female needs can all be satisfied satisfactorily in a single game? Maybe not all males. Some of us are whiny children, and maybe that group can't be satisfied by games that satisfy women gamers. (I'm not sure if the converse is true or not, since there are few enough women gamers that a handful of whiny children among them would look like individual nut jobs rather than a demographic.)
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 14, 2017 23:24:36 GMT
That's the joke. She isn't ugly, unless your crazy. Ah gotcha.
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Post by vonuber on Aug 14, 2017 23:38:08 GMT
Bioware has been trying to straddle the middle. I'm not sure it's working. A lot of guys feel the Chick circle is bigger than the Dude's. I've argued before that maybe women need their own AAA dev. Hmmmmmmm.
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Post by jackdaniel on Aug 15, 2017 0:19:22 GMT
This thread is ridiculous, why does anyone even care whether characters are ugly or hot. Their games are going to be good or bad based on how sexually appealing a computer animation is? I don't get why people are looking for things that are better found on Pornhub
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 15, 2017 0:19:35 GMT
Man, I wish there was less snark and more thought in this world. Less snark? Ain't no kinda world I wanna live in.
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Post by Guardian on Aug 15, 2017 0:40:27 GMT
Just imagine all those characters as young men. Bastil, Miran, Morgan and Vicon. Same dialogue, same attitude. Still think you'd be interested in understanding where they are coming from, and what made them like this, and looking forward to them transforming in responces to your kindness and forebearing? Or would you just rather point them to the door? also, well, Alistair is the PC's boyfriend, so when Morrigan comes down on him, she basically tells the PC that she, the PC, likes a dirty, stupid floormat, that, she, Morrigan, is too good for. After which she shows up, and tells the PC that the only way for everyone to live, is for the PC to put someone she loves in Morrigan's bed. one reason I like Andromeda is that we dodged this archetype . To be honest, yes, I'd still try and see where they're coming from. It's something I like to try and do with any NPC
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Post by aslightjump on Aug 15, 2017 3:07:28 GMT
Yeah, this argument is starting to read as "I want a Safe Space for my hot girl fantasies and all these other preferences are getting in the way." I realize that's not what's actually meant from further elaboration but suggesting male and female devs should be separate is giving me Tumblr flashbacks like whoa.
I mean, there's just so many other ways to look at this then 'Bioware has taken away from me.' Like 1) it was never there to be given to you in the first place. OR 2) Bioware did give you their version of Yennefer: it looked like Cassandra, or Cora, or one of the Asari, you just didn't like it, but that clearly does not apply to every guy as we've seen on here nor a percentage of guys that IMO sounds believable but ok. OR 3) The "SJW" argument: you're not gonna get a Yennefer in Mass Effect again because they already tried that with Ashley and Miranda and the complaints they got either outnumbered the dudes happy with a hot chick or went against what the company wanted to do with themselves. I'd say that Ashley and Jack were borderline immersion breaking and it bugged people, so Cora was more true to the lore and her character. Isabela looks ridiculous, clothing wise, so Cassandra and Sera are, you know, at the very least wearing pants. OR. 4) Giving the average straight male gamer some credit and consider that maybe the rushed release, or the bugs, or the bad animations, or the lack of a power wheel, or the turnaround from Renegade Shep to Happy-Go-Lucky Ryder, or the endings to ME3, or the amazingly bad 10-hr trial, or seeing all those things all over the internet led to anger with MEA, and if they were upset with the girls not being hot enough maybe some of them grumbled to themselves 'and they couldn't even give me a hot girl to soothe the burn' but it was, at most, the straw that broke the already very beaten camel's back.
EDIT: to account for correction below me.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Aug 15, 2017 3:55:07 GMT
2) Bioware did give you their version of Yennefer: it looked like Cassandra, or Cora, or one of the Asari, you just didn't like it, but that clearly does not apply to every guy as we've seen on here nor any percentage of guys since you haven't given us a number. I agree with the rest of what you said, but if you are referring to I'd rather be Mordin Solus , they did: 60%. Seems a bit high to me, if 100% is the total audience, including women. But whatever the number is -- and we're never going to be able to agree on one, inside or outside of the echo chamber of one's chosing -- there is a way of looking at this that might shed some light on I'd rather be Mordin Solus 's point. If Cora was the spitting image of Yennefer, a veritable Yennefer clone, the number of straight men complaining in forums about how she looked would be close to 0%. Aside from those screaming about how Bioware ripped off CDPR, of course.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 15, 2017 7:41:59 GMT
I like her more than you guys do.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 15, 2017 15:27:40 GMT
Yeah, this argument is starting to read as "I want a Safe Space for my hot girl fantasies and all these other preferences are getting in the way." Well, technically, the OP's position is that a lot of male gamers want a safe space, etc., and Bio should give them one because.... it kind of wobbles a bit, but I think the original argument was business necessity.
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