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Post by alanc9 on Aug 16, 2017 15:14:50 GMT
Yeah, "gamer" and "gamer with the hardware to run AAA titles" are different demos. I can't remember; does Steam collect demographic information? Presumably this could be correlated with the hardware survey. Steam has only asked for me my hardware specs.. nothing else. Well, they'd only ask for the demographic info when you created the account, since it won't likely change. IiRC I was asked about age; don't remember about gender.
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Post by rras1994 on Aug 16, 2017 15:15:53 GMT
Yeah, that's a factor devs have to consider. Bioware is gambling. I wonder numbers they are looking at, where they get their statistics. I'm gonna go off on a limb and say that they are gonna go with whatever statistics align with the current PC narrative, sadly. You're assuming that the gender ratio of gamers for Bioware games are the exact same for all games. quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/For Western RPGs, DAI had a significant increase of female gamers compared to the average for that genre (48% vs. 26%). This was Bioware's most sucessful launch ever. This wasn't the only Bioware game either that bucked the trend. SWTOR has 30% females compared to 16% average for the Sci-Fi MMOs. This might just suggest that when you build games that are welcoming to women gamers, they will play them. Clearly, Bioware has tapped into a market that other studios have ignored. I suppose that some male gamers may be turned away for not having a game designed exclusively with them in mind, but since Bioware and EA haven't changed their design intentions, it must be worth the tradeoff!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 15:15:58 GMT
"Expand their market." Excellent point, and, for me, the most interesting. My question is whether it will work. I know 50% of gamers are women, but the kinds of games men and women enjoy differ quite a bit. Are there enough AAA gaming women to replace the men Bioware will lose by not including GTA/W3 levels of conventional sexy? I think the next Bioware release will answer that question. Only when mobile games are considered, and I don't know anyone who would consider someone who plays iPhones games a "gamer." Uhm, I think he might be quoting the DA:I demographics, that did involve female gamer participation near 50%.
I refuse to further comment on this thread, because I am starting to feel a desire to sock a specific poster in the face in an unlady like manner & not because he wants hot babez, but because all the veiled suggestions that female gamers should be "taken care off" by "someone else" and keep their hands off BioWARE products. And that's over something as trivial as Cora not having a braid and azure orbs.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 15:21:15 GMT
Steam has only asked for me my hardware specs.. nothing else. Well, they'd only ask for the demographic info when you created the account, since it won't likely change. IiRC I was asked about age; don't remember about gender. Alas, I do not remember. I'm gonna go off on a limb and say that they are gonna go with whatever statistics align with the current PC narrative, sadly. You're assuming that the gender ratio of gamers for Bioware games are the exact same for all games. quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/For Western RPGs, DAI had a significant increase of female gamers compared to the average for that genre (48% vs. 26%). This was Bioware's most sucessful launch ever. This wasn't the only Bioware game either that bucked the trend. SWTOR has 30% females compared to 16% average for the Sci-Fi MMOs. This might just suggest that when you build games that are welcoming to women gamers, they will play them. Clearly, Bioware has tapped into a market that other studios have ignored. I suppose that some male gamers may be turned away for not having a game designed exclusively with them in mind, but since Bioware and EA haven't changed their design intentions, it must be worth the tradeoff! Good point, but the blanket "50% of gamers are women" is not true on average. That's what I'm getting at. Only when mobile games are considered, and I don't know anyone who would consider someone who plays iPhones games a "gamer." Uhm, I think he might be quoting the DA:I demographics, that did involve female gamer participation near 50%.
I refuse to further comment on this thread, because I am starting to feel a desire to sock a specific poster in the face in an unlady like manner.
Right, but on average the statistic is drastically over-representative. Also, no amount of disagreement on an opinion should every lead to violence or threats of violence. That is not healthy discourse.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 15:23:19 GMT
Well, they'd only ask for the demographic info when you created the account, since it won't likely change. IiRC I was asked about age; don't remember about gender. Alas, I do not remember. You're assuming that the gender ratio of gamers for Bioware games are the exact same for all games. quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/For Western RPGs, DAI had a significant increase of female gamers compared to the average for that genre (48% vs. 26%). This was Bioware's most sucessful launch ever. This wasn't the only Bioware game either that bucked the trend. SWTOR has 30% females compared to 16% average for the Sci-Fi MMOs. This might just suggest that when you build games that are welcoming to women gamers, they will play them. Clearly, Bioware has tapped into a market that other studios have ignored. I suppose that some male gamers may be turned away for not having a game designed exclusively with them in mind, but since Bioware and EA haven't changed their design intentions, it must be worth the tradeoff! Good point, but the blanket "50% of gamers are women" is not true on average. That's what I'm getting at. Uhm, I think he might be quoting the DA:I demographics, that did involve female gamer participation near 50%.
I refuse to further comment on this thread, because I am starting to feel a desire to sock a specific poster in the face in an unlady like manner.
Right, but on average the statistic is drastically over-representative. Also, no amount of disagreement on an opinion should every lead to violence or threats of violence. That is not healthy discourse. Well, he seems to be yearning for the good old days... In the good old days if I recall, slapping a man in the face for being a pig was something of a commonplace. His comments are deeply and profoundly insulting in that they aim at female gamers, not at a particular technical issue and try to drive a divide in the fan base.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 15:26:26 GMT
Alas, I do not remember. Good point, but the blanket "50% of gamers are women" is not true on average. That's what I'm getting at. Right, but on average the statistic is drastically over-representative. Also, no amount of disagreement on an opinion should every lead to violence or threats of violence. That is not healthy discourse. Well, he seems to be yearning for the good old days... In the good old days if I recall, slapping a man in the face for being a pig was something of a commonplace. Still doesn't make violence the solution. The attitude that violence is an appropriate answer to dissenting opinions is the main reason discourse is all but lost in the modern day.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 16, 2017 15:27:43 GMT
I was wrong about Steam. It doesn't ask for your age; I believe that was Origin.
Steam makes you enter your birthdate every time you look at a new M-rated game's page, come to think of it. I wish Steam did store my age.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 15:41:52 GMT
I was wrong about Steam. It doesn't ask for your age; I believe that was Origin. Steam makes you enter your birthdate every time you look at a new M-rated game's page, come to think of it. I wish Steam did store my age. Steam has stored my age for browsing the store page. Seems to have set a cookie within the Steam browser.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 15:49:30 GMT
Well, he seems to be yearning for the good old days... In the good old days if I recall, slapping a man in the face for being a pig was something of a commonplace. Still doesn't make violence the solution. The attitude that violence is an appropriate answer to dissenting opinions is the main reason discourse is all but lost in the modern day. He was offered every courtesy and a polite discourse, and in return his response was: Keep the women away from BioWare games! That in no way, shape or form is at all justified by anything that was said. Modern times or not, this is the point when discourse is done, hence I am walking away from this and I would not talk to this person again.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 15:52:14 GMT
Still doesn't make violence the solution. The attitude that violence is an appropriate answer to dissenting opinions is the main reason discourse is all but lost in the modern day. He was offered every courtesy and a polite discourse, and in return his response was: Keep the women away from BioWare games! That in no way, shape or form is at all justified by anything that was said. Modern times or not, this is the point when discourse is done, hence I am walking away from this and I would not talk to this person again. His point seemed to be more along the lines that there should be more attractive women in videogames in general which I wouldn't consider to be an offensive sentiment in the slightest. Alas, disengagement is much preferred to flaming or violence.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 15:59:26 GMT
He was offered every courtesy and a polite discourse, and in return his response was: Keep the women away from BioWare games! That in no way, shape or form is at all justified by anything that was said. Modern times or not, this is the point when discourse is done, hence I am walking away from this and I would not talk to this person again. His point seemed to be more along the lines that there should be more attractive women in videogames in general which I wouldn't consider to be an offensive sentiment in the slightest. Alas, disengagement is much preferred to flaming or violence. That was fine. What was insulting are the numerous posts attempting to relegate the female gamers to "another developer" and statements that females should have their own games, and the insinuation that BioWare games are for boys. I am an enthusiastic BioWare gamer since 1999, and telling me that I should go play something else after twenty years of adoring BioWare because some NPC, any NPC has short hair, and in fact that it is my fault somehow, for liking BioWare games, or that the games are not good enough for males because females like them too... this is an opinion, all right, but a thoroughly disgusting one. As well as the insinuation that me, who have purchased and loved BioWare games through the years is a cause of potential failure of the company, because I am a woman.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 16, 2017 16:00:13 GMT
I'm gonna go off on a limb and say that they are gonna go with whatever statistics align with the current PC narrative, sadly. You're assuming that the gender ratio of gamers for Bioware games are the exact same for all games. quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/For Western RPGs, DAI had a significant increase of female gamers compared to the average for that genre (48% vs. 26%). This was Bioware's most sucessful launch ever. This wasn't the only Bioware game either that bucked the trend. SWTOR has 30% females compared to 16% average for the Sci-Fi MMOs. This might just suggest that when you build games that are welcoming to women gamers, they will play them. Clearly, Bioware has tapped into a market that other studios have ignored. I suppose that some male gamers may be turned away for not having a game designed exclusively with them in mind, but since Bioware and EA haven't changed their design intentions, it must be worth the tradeoff! Nice points. I think you're right. do you think there are enough female AAA gamers to make it worth investing millions of dollars into a AAA designed with women foremost in mind?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 16:06:13 GMT
His point seemed to be more along the lines that there should be more attractive women in videogames in general which I wouldn't consider to be an offensive sentiment in the slightest. Alas, disengagement is much preferred to flaming or violence. That was fine. What was insulting are the numerous posts attempting to relegate the female gamers to "another developer" and statements that females should have their own games, and the insinuation that BioWare games are for boys. I am an enthusiastic BioWare gamer since 1999, and telling me that I should go play something else after twenty years of adoring BioWare because some NPC, any NPC has short hair, and in fact that it is my fault somehow, for liking BioWare games, or that the games are not good enough for males because females like them too... this is an opinion, all right, but a thoroughly disgusting one. I would agree that those sentiments are indeed disheartening and naive. Suggesting segregation is never a good argument nor is blaming fans for dev decisions. Honestly, all you can really do is argue for the contrary or let sleeping dogs lie. Choice is yours and I don't fault you either way.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 16, 2017 16:08:05 GMT
Never, anywhere, have I said I was against women in AAA games.
Never, anywhere, have I said women or other genders should be excluded from the fun
Many of you want me to be a villain, pure evil that can be easily dismissed.
It's shameful intellectual laziness and cowardice.
Look around, your country is being torn apart by just such attitudes and behaviors.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 16, 2017 16:18:47 GMT
Well, he seems to be yearning for the good old days... In the good old days if I recall, slapping a man in the face for being a pig was something of a commonplace. Still doesn't make violence the solution. The attitude that violence is an appropriate answer to dissenting opinions is the main reason discourse is all but lost in the modern day. Wrong. Wrong. WRONG. There is no discourse today, because every half-wit has an opinion that must be protected and is seen as valuable by someone for some reason. The internet and the ability of 13yo children to call grown men and women bitches without any fear of reprisal is the actual problem. This is called decline of humanity by "civilization".
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Post by Cyberstrike on Aug 16, 2017 16:21:36 GMT
Never, anywhere, have I said I was against women in AAA games. Never, anywhere, have I said women or other genders should be excluded from the fun Many of you want me to be a villain, pure evil that can be easily dismissed. It's shameful intellectual laziness and cowardice. Look around, your country is being torn apart by just such attitudes and behaviors. Please spare the "intellectual laziness and cowardice" bullshit. I'm sick of the "heterosexuals feeling wronged" defense, that you posted in your original post! Which basically is a bunch of fucking crybabies screaming "Sera and Suvi are lesbians and I can't romance them because I'm so sexually insecure as a man that I can't play as a woman because I might be gay!" Or "Cassandra and Cora are ugly I don't want to romance them!" When people like you stop acting a whinny entitled selfish brat, and come to real world then I will be happy to debate you. Until you and the worthless whinny "hardcore" gamer trolls can fuck off.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 16, 2017 16:22:29 GMT
Still doesn't make violence the solution. The attitude that violence is an appropriate answer to dissenting opinions is the main reason discourse is all but lost in the modern day. Wrong. Wrong. WRONG. There is no discourse today, because every half-wit has an opinion that must be protected and is seen as valuable by someone for some reason. The internet and the ability of 13yo boys to call grown men bitches without any fear of reprisal is the actual problem. This is called decline of humanity by "civilization". You know things are looking grim when some 12 year old is barking orders thinking he runs the raid group.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Aug 16, 2017 16:24:28 GMT
Wrong. Wrong. WRONG. There is no discourse today, because every half-wit has an opinion that must be protected and is seen as valuable by someone for some reason. The internet and the ability of 13yo boys to call grown men bitches without any fear of reprisal is the actual problem. This is called decline of humanity by "civilization". You know things are looking grim when some 12 year old is barking orders thinking he runs the raid group. Or buying games that were never meant to play and/or are marketed for adults.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 16:26:49 GMT
Well, they'd only ask for the demographic info when you created the account, since it won't likely change. IiRC I was asked about age; don't remember about gender. Alas, I do not remember. You're assuming that the gender ratio of gamers for Bioware games are the exact same for all games. quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/For Western RPGs, DAI had a significant increase of female gamers compared to the average for that genre (48% vs. 26%). This was Bioware's most sucessful launch ever. This wasn't the only Bioware game either that bucked the trend. SWTOR has 30% females compared to 16% average for the Sci-Fi MMOs. This might just suggest that when you build games that are welcoming to women gamers, they will play them. Clearly, Bioware has tapped into a market that other studios have ignored. I suppose that some male gamers may be turned away for not having a game designed exclusively with them in mind, but since Bioware and EA haven't changed their design intentions, it must be worth the tradeoff! Good point, but the blanket "50% of gamers are women" is not true on average. That's what I'm getting at. Uhm, I think he might be quoting the DA:I demographics, that did involve female gamer participation near 50%.
I refuse to further comment on this thread, because I am starting to feel a desire to sock a specific poster in the face in an unlady like manner.
Right, but on average the statistic is drastically over-representative. Also, no amount of disagreement on an opinion should every lead to violence or threats of violence. That is not healthy discourse. If you do not trust statistics (what is it over-representing?) you can go by the word of mouth. I have played BioWare games for 20 years, and encountered a significant number of female gamers thoroughly enjoying the products. A brief look at "what did you do today?" Threads show active female participation in the fandom in significant proportion. There is absolutely no reason to dismiss, marginalize, ignore or antoganize fellow fans based on gender or over perceived grievances. We all play BioWare games, and if someone does not like BioWare games, it's that person that should look for alternatives, not call for some pseudo-scientific marketing schemes. Make good games. We, and we as in men and women both, will play them. Build bridges, not fences.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 16, 2017 16:26:58 GMT
That was fine. What was insulting are the numerous posts attempting to relegate the female gamers to "another developer" and statements that females should have their own games, and the insinuation that BioWare games are for boys. I am an enthusiastic BioWare gamer since 1999, and telling me that I should go play something else after twenty years of adoring BioWare because some NPC, any NPC has short hair, and in fact that it is my fault somehow, for liking BioWare games, or that the games are not good enough for males because females like them too... this is an opinion, all right, but a thoroughly disgusting one. I would agree that those sentiments are indeed disheartening and naive. Suggesting segregation is never a good argument nor is blaming fans for dev decisions. Honestly, all you can really do is argue for the contrary or let sleeping dogs lie. Choice is yours and I don't fault you either way. Mass media is already segregated. Look at a magazine shelf. There are already chick movies/books etc. and dude movie/books etc. And then a vast middle ground. Lots of garbage and some very great art in all 3 realms. I think a female focused AAA studio could be very empowering for women. But by no means should woman only be expected to play in those games.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 16, 2017 16:28:33 GMT
You know things are looking grim when some 12 year old is barking orders thinking he runs the raid group. Or buying games that were never meant are marketed for adults. Balderdash. It doesn't matter which group a game is marketed toward. Be it Destiny, CoD or Splatoon, you're going to have adults and kids playing the same games.
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 16, 2017 16:34:07 GMT
Or buying games that were never meant are marketed for adults. Balderdash. It doesn't matter which group a game is marketed toward. Be it Destiny, CoD or Splatoon, you're going to have adults and kids playing the same games. Yup. Though I can't help but laugh when I'm playing a game and the 8 year old leader gets destroyed and then whines the rest of the match. ( any Halo)
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 16, 2017 17:08:40 GMT
I was wrong about Steam. It doesn't ask for your age; I believe that was Origin. Steam makes you enter your birthdate every time you look at a new M-rated game's page, come to think of it. I wish Steam did store my age. Steam has stored my age for browsing the store page. Seems to have set a cookie within the Steam browser. Interesting. I wonder why it hasn't stored mine.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 17:18:01 GMT
Steam has stored my age for browsing the store page. Seems to have set a cookie within the Steam browser. Interesting. I wonder why it hasn't stored mine. Must be the cookies. It does store my age entry as well. On the other hand, it makes me log-in the second time to look at my comments. Lol.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 17:31:56 GMT
Still doesn't make violence the solution. The attitude that violence is an appropriate answer to dissenting opinions is the main reason discourse is all but lost in the modern day. Wrong. Wrong. WRONG. There is no discourse today, because every half-wit has an opinion that must be protected and is seen as valuable by someone for some reason. The internet and the ability of 13yo children to call grown men and women bitches without any fear of reprisal is the actual problem. This is called decline of humanity by "civilization". You seem to be pushing an anti-anonymity sentiment of which I cannot agree on in any way shape or form. Never, anywhere, have I said I was against women in AAA games. Never, anywhere, have I said women or other genders should be excluded from the fun Many of you want me to be a villain, pure evil that can be easily dismissed. It's shameful intellectual laziness and cowardice. Look around, your country is being torn apart by just such attitudes and behaviors. Please spare the "intellectual laziness and cowardice" bullshit. I'm sick of the "heterosexuals feeling wronged" defense, that you posted in your original post! Which basically is a bunch of fucking crybabies screaming "Sera and Suvi are lesbians and I can't romance them because I'm so sexually insecure as a man that I can't play as a woman because I might be gay!" Or "Cassandra and Cora are ugly I don't want to romance them!" When people like you stop acting a whinny entitled selfish brat, and come to real world then I will be happy to debate you. Until you and the worthless whinny "hardcore" gamer trolls can fuck off. It sounds as if you are saying that heterosexual people aren't granted the ability to have opinions... Alas, I do not remember. Good point, but the blanket "50% of gamers are women" is not true on average. That's what I'm getting at. Right, but on average the statistic is drastically over-representative. Also, no amount of disagreement on an opinion should every lead to violence or threats of violence. That is not healthy discourse. If you do not trust statistics (what is it over-representing?) you can go by the word of mouth. I have played BioWare games for 20 years, and encountered a significant number of female gamers thoroughly enjoying the products. A brief look at "what did you do today?" Threads show active female participation in the fandom in significant proportion. There is absolutely no reason to dismiss, marginalize, ignore or antoganize fellow fans based on gender or over perceived grievances. We all play BioWare games, and if someone does not like BioWare games, it's that person that should look for alternatives, not call for some pseudo-scientific marketing schemes. Make good games. We, and we as in men and women both, will play them. Build bridges, not fences. By "over-represented," I mean that there are clearly more females playing BW games than other developers. I am not doing any of the things you listed. I am simply arguing statistics for statistic's sake. I agree with the sentiment of "We, and we as in men and women both, will play them. Build bridges, not fences." and believe that that is the best way to look at it. We are all gamers, irregardless of inconsequential differences. I would agree that those sentiments are indeed disheartening and naive. Suggesting segregation is never a good argument nor is blaming fans for dev decisions. Honestly, all you can really do is argue for the contrary or let sleeping dogs lie. Choice is yours and I don't fault you either way. Mass media is already segregated. Look at a magazine shelf. There are already chick movies/books etc. and dude movie/books etc. And then a vast middle ground. Lots of garbage and some very great art in all 3 realms. I think a female focused AAA studio could be very empowering for women. But by no means should woman only be expected to play in those games. There is a vast trench between "media geared towards women" and "media geared towards gamers." Steam has stored my age for browsing the store page. Seems to have set a cookie within the Steam browser. Interesting. I wonder why it hasn't stored mine. Cookie issue? I think you can clear Steam's browser data.
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