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Post by txgoldrush on Aug 7, 2017 22:17:42 GMT
But at the end of the day, TW3 is FAR better received than those games. You cannot deny this. Reception does not equally quality. TW3 was mediocre in comparison to any Bioware title for what I wanted in a game. Then it seems to be that you are going to get less of what you want in a game, because that's where the standard is right now.
And really, the Bioware formula has gone on way too long, it simply doesn't work anymore compared to competitors.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Aug 7, 2017 22:22:54 GMT
Look I like TW3 but you simply cannot compare it to these. Very different types of games. I really wouldn't go that far to say they can't be compared, especially when bioware even invites the comparison to CDR to begin with. Both are RPG studios, one simply puts more emphasis on creating your own character, the other has a set character, there's the primary difference between the two. Both have extensive dialogue and choices, they both feature an open world approach, they even share quest setups the same way. People wouldn't compare them if they weren't so comparable to begin with. It's hard not to when both developers take inspiration from each other when making their games. To be honest for me the whole comparison between BioWare and CDPR and/or BioWare vs. CDPR debate (however people want to frame it) is a dead horse that is now instead of being beaten it is being sodomized with the stick. There is nothing to be said that hasn't been said about 999+ trillion times before here and everywhere else. So let me break it down to you: Some people love BioWare and hate CDPR. Some people love CDPR and hate BioWare. Some people love both equally. Some people hate both equally. Some people don't give a flying rat's ass about either one equally. For me personally I tried The Witcher 2 on Xbox 360 and I didn't like it. From all the videos I've seen of The Witcher 3 it doesn't look like a game that is for me and I wasn't impressed by any of it. And you know what? That is fine. Not every RPG is going to appeal to me. I got plenty of games that do appeal to me and I have a working Original Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One, PS3, PS4, and GBA and plenty of games that do appeal to me to play on those titles. Hell if I ever get in a masochistic mood I got enough old PC games that should work in theory, provided if I can find updates for them so they work on Windows 10. Maybe I'll try Cyberpunk 2077 when ever CDPR releases it.
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Post by henkiedepost on Aug 7, 2017 22:29:05 GMT
DAI is a MUCH better game. Both are TERRIBLE open world games, but DAI had great character writing and a very cool subplot reveal and Bioware's best (?) secret villain. And very fun crafting, good score, much better character design, CC and so on. The only good thing about MEA is the combat and environment textures. DAI's combat is the worst aspect of the game and the most boring slog of all Bioware games I've played. That said I still prefer ME3's combat. The sound design was so much better and I hate the weird auto-cover MEA introduced. DAI is a GOOD game but I wish Bioware ditched open world. They suck at it and the whole thing does their narrative no favors, nor replayability. I prefer DA2 over DAI, I think. I prefer any previous Bioware game over MEA, greatly so. MEA is a 6/10 at best judged by itself. (Would probably give it a 2/10 for a Mass Effect game based on the enjoyable combat). I'd give DAI an 8/10 or something compared to DAO, DA2 and the trilogy. terrible open world games?? you mean ubisoft open word games are better? In myeyes bioware open world do suffer from a loose storyline compared to their Non open world games but at least they still vastly outperform most other non bioware open world games. Ubisoft is also terrible at making Open World games, maybe even worse than Bioware. (Don't know about their newer games because I'm boycotting Ubisoft and their shit-tier releases and downgrades for quite a while now). It's also true that there are a lot of bad Open World games out there, which isn't surprising really because there are few things harder than making one for a developer. Unfortunately, all these facts don't automatically make Bioware's Open Worlds in DAI and MEA Godtier or even 'good'. Opinions always differ and that's okay, but for me and a lot of people the Open World was the weakest aspect of this game. This has been discussed to death already in other dedicated threads so I'm not going into detail here, but Bioware most certainly isn't pushing the frontiers on this department. Instead, they are lagging behind. And that's the problem. Their worlds might have been solid a couple of years ago but they just don't cut it anymore now. Bioware has played it safe, instead of pushing the frontier. That honor goes to Rockstar and CDPR, and a few other daring developers. I considered Bethesda to be part of that list as well but their biggest critique is that they just don't innovate. Even they are also starting to lag behind now. In order for Bioware to be competitive, they seriously need to work harder to make their worlds feel alive. Have people walk around and do things according to accurate schedules. Fill the worlds with more unique vista's. Improve on the side-content. Trim down on the filler. Create more diversity in flora, fauna and enemies. Remove backtracking and useless traveling. It seems simple but Bio still isn't there unfortunately. Anyway, I understand that you already like the way Open Worlds are done in Bioware games and that's fine. I'm just trying to give you some insights in why other people possibly feel ME:A's Open World just isn't good enough.
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Post by Kabraxal on Aug 7, 2017 22:31:05 GMT
Reception does not equally quality. TW3 was mediocre in comparison to any Bioware title for what I wanted in a game. Then it seems to be that you are going to get less of what you want in a game, because that's where the standard is right now.
And really, the Bioware formula has gone on way too long, it simply doesn't work anymore compared to competitors.
Says your opinion. TW3 was rife with dark fantasy cliches, hamfisted writing, and repetitive quests. It changed nothing. It offered nothing new.
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Post by geralt on Aug 7, 2017 22:32:06 GMT
Bioware and Projekt Red aren't trying to emulate each other. They're both just trying to make good RPG games. I think that's where any meaningful comparison ends. Constantly bringing up TW3 is starting to get really boring. Some people like it, some hate it, but it no longer brings anything new or interesting to the conversation. Talk about flogging a dead horse. This one is fully decomposed. It wasn't even me that brought it up, you think if anyone would.
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Post by LogicGunn on Aug 7, 2017 22:35:28 GMT
The world- narrative design of MEA is far superior than DAI.
Once again, DAI's narrative is overall very disconnected. Instead of the quest design integrated into the overall narrative, like MEA does, it feels random instead. And DAI's quests follow no theme as well. This is DAI's fatal flaw, and a flaw that causes other flaws.
MEA's problem is with the technical aspects, and the parts of the sum. DAI's problem is with the sum of its parts. And that's why MEA is overall better. Its where the flaws lie, in MEA, its the parts, in DAI its the sum.
Welcome to the board txgoldrush. I disagree. I enjoyed the exploration in DAI, I found it cumbersome in MEA and I hope it's dropped or greatly improved for the next game in the ME series. I prefer ME with a slightly tighter, more linear and less open format. I expected it to be better than DAI in MEA but it was a massive step back. Though I strongly suspect with a better development and/or more development time it would have been excellent.
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Post by LogicGunn on Aug 7, 2017 22:36:53 GMT
Bioware and Projekt Red aren't trying to emulate each other. They're both just trying to make good RPG games. I think that's where any meaningful comparison ends. Constantly bringing up TW3 is starting to get really boring. Some people like it, some hate it, but it no longer brings anything new or interesting to the conversation. Talk about flogging a dead horse. This one is fully decomposed. It wasn't even me that brought it up, you think if anyone would. I KNOW! Now it's EVERYONE!!!
Actually I'm writing this to the Gwent theme cause TW3 is paused on my PS4 right now so...............
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 7, 2017 22:48:47 GMT
The world- narrative design of MEA is far superior than DAI.
Once again, DAI's narrative is overall very disconnected. Instead of the quest design integrated into the overall narrative, like MEA does, it feels random instead. And DAI's quests follow no theme as well. This is DAI's fatal flaw, and a flaw that causes other flaws.
MEA's problem is with the technical aspects, and the parts of the sum. DAI's problem is with the sum of its parts. And that's why MEA is overall better. Its where the flaws lie, in MEA, its the parts, in DAI its the sum.
Welcome to the board txgoldrush. I disagree. I enjoyed the exploration in DAI, I found it cumbersome in MEA and I hope it's dropped or greatly improved for the next game in the ME series. I prefer ME with a slightly tighter, more linear and less open format. I expected it to be better than DAI in MEA but it was a massive step back. Though I strongly suspect with a better development and/or more development time it would have been excellent. The exploration is one of the best parts. Needs improvement mind you but not dropped all together.
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Post by abaris on Aug 7, 2017 22:53:54 GMT
I disagree. I enjoyed the exploration in DAI, I found it cumbersome in MEA and I hope it's dropped or greatly improved for the next game in the ME series. I prefer ME with a slightly tighter, more linear and less open format. I expected it to be better than DAI in MEA but it was a massive step back. Though I strongly suspect with a better development and/or more development time it would have been excellent. Actually, some game mags mentioned that exploration was more tedious than in DAI. I didn't think it could get worse, not because I thought it was bad in DAI, but because I didn't think, the devs would roll back on what they already had. I was wrong. It is more tedious and lifeless in MEA and the first thing I did on every new planet was activating the fast travel points, so I didn't have to drive the whole mile again for some wayward task.
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Post by vonuber on Aug 7, 2017 23:05:03 GMT
Faffing. If there is one word to sum up MEA it's faff. It took what I thought was fairly an enjoyable aspect of DAI (exploration) and made it more faffy instead of more integral. I actually think it is the other way around - DA:I to me felt like it was deliberately wasting my time, from the slow crawl of exploration to the mundane tasks it had you doing as the head of the inquisition.
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 7, 2017 23:16:36 GMT
I saw people talking about TW3. Seriously, you may not like the game. You may think "it's not for you". But you can't deny it's damn good and it's damn well written.
One thing all games should learn with TW3 is how to make sidequests. In Bioware games, sidequests don't matter, you do them mostly for xp. You usually make some binary choice, but you never suffer any real consequence for that choice (except in loyalty missions), but in TW3, even small things you do have CONSEQUENCES, and that's what makes the game feel so immersive
When I entered Novigrad the first time, I insulted a priest. Later, that priest sent assassins to try to kill me. I also set free a man who was tied on a rope and left for drowners. Later I found out he was actually a bandit and killed some people after I had set him free. On the first part of the game, I gave a girl a potion to cure her disease. Later, her lover found me and told me she survived, but was going mad. Not to mention the side quests where you can change all of the world's politics.
I'm not trying to sound like a TW3 fanboy (though I am), but Bioware seriously could learn a thing or two with TW3, especially about narrative, characters and immersion.
Edit: Oh, and about respect with the players, as well. Especially that.
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Post by Kabraxal on Aug 7, 2017 23:31:04 GMT
I saw people talking about TW3. Seriously, you may not like the game. You may think "it's not for you". But you can't deny it's damn good and it's damn well written. One thing all games should learn with TW3 is how to make sidequests. In Bioware games, sidequests don't matter, you do them mostly for xp. You usually make some binary choice, but you never suffer any real consequence for that choice (except in loyalty missions), but in TW3, even small things you do have CONSEQUENCES, and that's what makes the game feel so immersive When I entered Novigrad the first time, I insulted a priest. Later, that priest sent assassins to try to kill me. I also set free a man who was tied on a rope and left for drowners. Later I found out he was actually a bandit and killed some people after I had set him free. On the first part of the game, I gave a girl a potion to cure her disease. Later, her lover found me and told me she survived, but was going mad. Not to mention the side quests where you can change all of the world's politics. I'm not trying to sound like a TW3 fanboy (though I am), but Bioware seriously could learn a thing or two with TW3, especially about narrative, characters and immersion. Edit: Oh, and about respect with the players, as well. Especially that. And yet I find Inquisition better written, with much more complex world building and characters. Why would I want them to learn from what I find intensely inferior?
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Post by colfoley on Aug 7, 2017 23:37:04 GMT
I saw people talking about TW3. Seriously, you may not like the game. You may think "it's not for you". But you can't deny it's damn good and it's damn well written. One thing all games should learn with TW3 is how to make sidequests. In Bioware games, sidequests don't matter, you do them mostly for xp. You usually make some binary choice, but you never suffer any real consequence for that choice (except in loyalty missions), but in TW3, even small things you do have CONSEQUENCES, and that's what makes the game feel so immersive When I entered Novigrad the first time, I insulted a priest. Later, that priest sent assassins to try to kill me. I also set free a man who was tied on a rope and left for drowners. Later I found out he was actually a bandit and killed some people after I had set him free. On the first part of the game, I gave a girl a potion to cure her disease. Later, her lover found me and told me she survived, but was going mad. Not to mention the side quests where you can change all of the world's politics. I'm not trying to sound like a TW3 fanboy (though I am), but Bioware seriously could learn a thing or two with TW3, especially about narrative, characters and immersion. Edit: Oh, and about respect with the players, as well. Especially that. I feel that the only real advantage that TW 3 has over recent BioWare titles is the side quests. Everything else is either a virtual tie, or an advantage to BioWare.
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 7, 2017 23:43:06 GMT
I saw people talking about TW3. Seriously, you may not like the game. You may think "it's not for you". But you can't deny it's damn good and it's damn well written. One thing all games should learn with TW3 is how to make sidequests. In Bioware games, sidequests don't matter, you do them mostly for xp. You usually make some binary choice, but you never suffer any real consequence for that choice (except in loyalty missions), but in TW3, even small things you do have CONSEQUENCES, and that's what makes the game feel so immersive When I entered Novigrad the first time, I insulted a priest. Later, that priest sent assassins to try to kill me. I also set free a man who was tied on a rope and left for drowners. Later I found out he was actually a bandit and killed some people after I had set him free. On the first part of the game, I gave a girl a potion to cure her disease. Later, her lover found me and told me she survived, but was going mad. Not to mention the side quests where you can change all of the world's politics. I'm not trying to sound like a TW3 fanboy (though I am), but Bioware seriously could learn a thing or two with TW3, especially about narrative, characters and immersion. Edit: Oh, and about respect with the players, as well. Especially that. I feel that the only real advantage that TW 3 has over recent BioWare titles is the side quests. Everything else is either a virtual tie, or an advantage to BioWare. Better side quests, characters, romance, graphics, animations, narrative, exploration, DLCs, even humor. Damn, TW3 has some VERY funny side quests (like when a druid tells you "Hey, my friend was cursed and lost his voice, go help him", then you go help the druid, try a lot of ways to scare him, then you finally scare him and he screams and you find out that he actually made a vow of silence and the other druid was trolling you into making his colleague break his vow of silence)
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Post by colfoley on Aug 7, 2017 23:45:47 GMT
I feel that the only real advantage that TW 3 has over recent BioWare titles is the side quests. Everything else is either a virtual tie, or an advantage to BioWare. Better side quests, characters, romance, graphics, animations, narrative, exploration, DLCs, even humor. Damn, TW3 has some VERY funny side quests (like when a druid tells you "Hey, my friend was cursed and lost his voice, go help him", then you go help the druid, try a lot of ways to scare him, then you finally scare him and he screams and you find out that he actually made a vow of silence and the other druid was trolling you into making his colleague break his vow of silence) I forgot about that side quest. I'd also give them animations. But presentation? No. Not after I had a bug which turned both the Spirit in the Tree and the Witches of Crookback Bog into mutes. Also no music. Turned my favorite scene in the game into a stupid self parody. Though I also find the game to be a self parody at times.
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 7, 2017 23:53:05 GMT
Better side quests, characters, romance, graphics, animations, narrative, exploration, DLCs, even humor. Damn, TW3 has some VERY funny side quests (like when a druid tells you "Hey, my friend was cursed and lost his voice, go help him", then you go help the druid, try a lot of ways to scare him, then you finally scare him and he screams and you find out that he actually made a vow of silence and the other druid was trolling you into making his colleague break his vow of silence) I forgot about that side quest. I'd also give them animations. But presentation? No. Not after I had a bug which turned both the Spirit in the Tree and the Witches of Crookback Bog into mutes. Also no music. Turned my favorite scene in the game into a stupid self parody. Though I also find the game to be a self parody at times. Every game has bugs. Especially big games like TW3 and Skyrim. I didn't find many glitches in TW3. Most of them are funny, when you get stuck on the ground, or Roach starts walking on two legs. And CDPR released patches VERY quickly to adress bugs and even mechanics (swimming was pretty terrible at release). In two weeks, most of them were fixed ME:A had some very nasty bugs at release, not to mention absurd performance issues, especially render delay, at least on PC. I remember I had to assault a kett base at the beginning of the game. I had to disable the alarms, but the alarms didn't appear on the map. Vetra died and her corpse disappeared, and I couldn't revive her. So it was only me and Peebee, with infinite enemis coming all around, and I was jumping all around to try to find the alarms... until the ground beneath me just disappears and I fall into an abyss to come back in front of a kett that kills me. And of course, I couldn't save during the whole mission, even if I was not on combat.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 8, 2017 0:11:46 GMT
I feel that the only real advantage that TW 3 has over recent BioWare titles is the side quests. Everything else is either a virtual tie, or an advantage to BioWare. Better side quests, characters, romance, graphics, animations, narrative, exploration, DLCs, even humor. Damn, TW3 has some VERY funny side quests (like when a druid tells you "Hey, my friend was cursed and lost his voice, go help him", then you go help the druid, try a lot of ways to scare him, then you finally scare him and he screams and you find out that he actually made a vow of silence and the other druid was trolling you into making his colleague break his vow of silence) I don't see the humor in being a dick.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 8, 2017 0:21:59 GMT
terrible open world games?? you mean ubisoft open word games are better? In myeyes bioware open world do suffer from a loose storyline compared to their Non open world games but at least they still vastly outperform most other non bioware open world games. Ubisoft is also terrible at making Open World games, maybe even worse than Bioware. (Don't know about their newer games because I'm boycotting Ubisoft and their shit-tier releases and downgrades for quite a while now). It's also true that there are a lot of bad Open World games out there, which isn't surprising really because there are few things harder than making one for a developer. Unfortunately, all these facts don't automatically make Bioware's Open Worlds in DAI and MEA Godtier or even 'good'. Opinions always differ and that's okay, but for me and a lot of people the Open World was the weakest aspect of this game. This has been discussed to death already in other dedicated threads so I'm not going into detail here, but Bioware most certainly isn't pushing the frontiers on this department. Instead, they are lagging behind. And that's the problem. Their worlds might have been solid a couple of years ago but they just don't cut it anymore now. Bioware has played it safe, instead of pushing the frontier. That honor goes to Rockstar and CDPR, and a few other daring developers. I considered Bethesda to be part of that list as well but their biggest critique is that they just don't innovate. Even they are also starting to lag behind now. In order for Bioware to be competitive, they seriously need to work harder to make their worlds feel alive. Have people walk around and do things according to accurate schedules. Fill the worlds with more unique vista's. Improve on the side-content. Trim down on the filler. Create more diversity in flora, fauna and enemies. Remove backtracking and useless traveling. It seems simple but Bio still isn't there unfortunately. Anyway, I understand that you already like the way Open Worlds are done in Bioware games and that's fine. I'm just trying to give you some insights in why other people possibly feel ME:A's Open World just isn't good enough. Bioware also needs to stop being afraid of implementing day/night cycles and dynamic weather. I can understand why MEA may not have day and night cycles, but what wad DAI's excuse?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 8, 2017 0:27:18 GMT
Ubisoft is also terrible at making Open World games, maybe even worse than Bioware. (Don't know about their newer games because I'm boycotting Ubisoft and their shit-tier releases and downgrades for quite a while now). It's also true that there are a lot of bad Open World games out there, which isn't surprising really because there are few things harder than making one for a developer. Unfortunately, all these facts don't automatically make Bioware's Open Worlds in DAI and MEA Godtier or even 'good'. Opinions always differ and that's okay, but for me and a lot of people the Open World was the weakest aspect of this game. This has been discussed to death already in other dedicated threads so I'm not going into detail here, but Bioware most certainly isn't pushing the frontiers on this department. Instead, they are lagging behind. And that's the problem. Their worlds might have been solid a couple of years ago but they just don't cut it anymore now. Bioware has played it safe, instead of pushing the frontier. That honor goes to Rockstar and CDPR, and a few other daring developers. I considered Bethesda to be part of that list as well but their biggest critique is that they just don't innovate. Even they are also starting to lag behind now. In order for Bioware to be competitive, they seriously need to work harder to make their worlds feel alive. Have people walk around and do things according to accurate schedules. Fill the worlds with more unique vista's. Improve on the side-content. Trim down on the filler. Create more diversity in flora, fauna and enemies. Remove backtracking and useless traveling. It seems simple but Bio still isn't there unfortunately. Anyway, I understand that you already like the way Open Worlds are done in Bioware games and that's fine. I'm just trying to give you some insights in why other people possibly feel ME:A's Open World just isn't good enough. Bioware also needs to stop being afraid of implementing day/night cycles and dynamic weather. I can understand why MEA may not have day and night cycles, but what wad DAI's excuse? To hazard a guess, same reason as some of the other limitations: they had to account for the Xbox 360 and the PS3. I know other games on those consoles could do day and night cycles, but those tended to be easier to run and consisted of only a single map.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2017 0:42:58 GMT
I think they also stated that they felt they had more control over story when they controlled the dynamic weather and day night cycles.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 8, 2017 0:57:45 GMT
I think they also stated that they felt they had more control over story when they controlled the dynamic weather and day night cycles. I think that is just a convenient excuse. Games like Horizon, GTA, and TW3 all work well in terms of story and narrative and they all have day/night/weather cycles. Open world design/immersion is the new "hair" for Bioware. They will always drop the ball on it and never get it right.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2017 0:58:54 GMT
I think they also stated that they felt they had more control over story when they controlled the dynamic weather and day night cycles. I think that is just a convenient excuse. Games like Horizon, GTA, and TW3 all work well in terms of story and narrative and they all have day/night/weather cycles. Maybe but its not that convinient since even TW3 paused time from...ugh...time to time in order to set up the right story mood or to make sure everything flowed. Both in the main game and the DLC.
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 8, 2017 1:00:14 GMT
Better side quests, characters, romance, graphics, animations, narrative, exploration, DLCs, even humor. Damn, TW3 has some VERY funny side quests (like when a druid tells you "Hey, my friend was cursed and lost his voice, go help him", then you go help the druid, try a lot of ways to scare him, then you finally scare him and he screams and you find out that he actually made a vow of silence and the other druid was trolling you into making his colleague break his vow of silence) I don't see the humor in being a dick. It's because I don't know how to explain, but it's really funny on the game, how Geralt is like "Oh, sorry, the other druid told me you were cursed..."
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 8, 2017 1:02:34 GMT
I think that is just a convenient excuse. Games like Horizon, GTA, and TW3 all work well in terms of story and narrative and they all have day/night/weather cycles. Maybe but its not that convinient since even TW3 paused time from...ugh...time to time in order to set up the right story mood or to make sure everything flowed. Both in the main game and the DLC. And even GTA5 fast forwarded time to get to a certain "mood" for a mission and yet it is still seen as one of the better open world game if not the best. Bioware just needs to catch up, nothing more.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2017 1:08:04 GMT
Maybe but its not that convinient since even TW3 paused time from...ugh...time to time in order to set up the right story mood or to make sure everything flowed. Both in the main game and the DLC. And even GTA5 fast forwarded time to get to a certain "mood" for a mission and yet it is still seen as one of the better open world game if not the best. Bioware just needs to catch up, nothing more. perhaps. And while i will say that how witcher handled things in its world and greatly contributed to making it feel alive its not a big deal to me. I'd rather Bioware focuses on other elements they should improve on.
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