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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 15, 2017 5:28:21 GMT
And for people who like both and used to be able to get both it's also not great. From a business perspective it makes sense and it doesn't. It does - because "action" games sell,
The Witcher series
, Assassin's Creed, Batman:Arkham and more. It doesn't - because Bioware (with Dragon Age games to date) occupied an otherwise empty segment in the market. AAA 3D RPG with tactical combat gameplay. If you're the only shop selling chocolate flavoured ice cream, then people who want chocolate flavoured ice cream will have to come to you. Even if it isn't as popular as another flavour, you'll still do well because EVERYONE else is selling that more popular flavour and nothing else. Yes and no. In order to understand why Dragon Age has the combat system that it does, you have to understand what Origins was originally supposed to be. Before EA acquired BioWare, Dragon Age was going to be a PC-exclusive RPG that was the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate. Given that mouse and keyboard were the controls, BioWare built a strategic combat system that supported that play style. That changed when EA stepped in and mandated the game also come to consoles. This is also largely the reason why DAO is absolutely horrendous with a controller, because it was never meant to be a console game. Fast forward to DAII, which was built to be a console game. The entire combat system was streamlined for a controller, and it was horrendous with a mouse and keyboard. Of course, there was backlash from the PC fan base, that enjoyed how PC-centric DAO's combat was. As a result, BioWare tried to compromise by pleasing both crowds in the third game. They wanted to make a game that console players could enjoy, but that also accommodated the PC crowd. I'd argue DAI's system failed to please either party. It was incredibly average in both disciplines, and left a combat system that was janky, unappealing, and largely forgettable. I understand that some of the player base has grown accustomed to BioWare going back between a more action-oriented combat system and tactical mode. But, they've also proven they can't do both justice at the same time. As I said, the tactical mode folks inevitably won't be happy with the removal of this gameplay approach. However, I do believe it will be in the best interest of the combat system overall. If BioWare believed they could do both combat systems well, you know they'd try to accommodate as many gamers as they could. It's just not realistic or feasible, given time constraints, limited resources, and a tight development schedule. It makes far more sense to specialize than to make a broad experience that inevitably appeals to no one.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 15, 2017 6:04:09 GMT
And for people who like both and used to be able to get both it's also not great. From a business perspective it makes sense and it doesn't. It does - because "action" games sell,
The Witcher series
, Assassin's Creed, Batman:Arkham and more. It doesn't - because Bioware (with Dragon Age games to date) occupied an otherwise empty segment in the market. AAA 3D RPG with tactical combat gameplay. If you're the only shop selling chocolate flavoured ice cream, then people who want chocolate flavoured ice cream will have to come to you. Even if it isn't as popular as another flavour, you'll still do well because EVERYONE else is selling that more popular flavour and nothing else. Yes and no. In order to understand why Dragon Age has the combat system that it does, you have to understand what Origins was originally supposed to be. Before EA acquired BioWare, Dragon Age was going to be a PC-exclusive RPG that was the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate. Given that mouse and keyboard were the controls, BioWare built a strategic combat system that supported that play style. That changed when EA stepped in and mandated the game also come to consoles. This is also largely the reason why DAO is absolutely horrendous with a controller, because it was never meant to be a console game. Fast forward to DAII, which was built to be a console game. The entire combat system was streamlined for a controller, and it was horrendous with a mouse and keyboard. Of course, there was backlash from the PC fan base, that enjoyed how PC-centric DAO's combat was. As a result, BioWare tried to compromise by pleasing both crowds in the third game. They wanted to make a game that console players could enjoy, but that also accommodated the PC crowd. I'd argue DAI's system failed to please either party. It was incredibly average in both disciplines, and left a combat system that was janky, unappealing, and largely forgettable. I understand that some of the player base has grown accustomed to BioWare going back between a more action-oriented combat system and tactical mode. But, they've also proven they can't do both justice at the same time. As I said, the tactical mode folks inevitably won't be happy with the removal of this gameplay approach. However, I do believe it will be in the best interest of the combat system overall. If BioWare believed they could do both combat systems well, you know they'd try to accommodate as many gamers as they could. It's just not realistic or feasible, given time constraints, limited resources, and a tight development schedule. It makes far more sense to specialize than to make a broad experience that inevitably appeals to no one. Um...thanks. But I don't need a Dragon Age history lesson. I was on Bioware's forum when they released the concept trailer for Origins using a modified Neverwinter Nights engine that showcased that battle of Ostagar. I know why Origins was the way it was, and also 2. For the rest, well, you're entitled to your opinion, certainly. And I'm not going to argue with you that DA2 was a console game you could play with a keyboard and mouse. But none of that changes the fact that "point of difference" is a real and often extremely lucrative asset in business - any business. Which was my only real point. Making yourself a slight variant of every other AAA action game doesn't seem like a long term winner.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 15, 2017 6:46:44 GMT
Um...thanks. But I don't need a Dragon Age history lesson. I was on Bioware's forum when they released the concept trailer for Origins using a modified Neverwinter Nights engine that showcased that battle of Ostagar. I know why Origins was the way it was, and also 2. For the rest, well, you're entitled to your opinion, certainly. And I'm not going to argue with you that DA2 was a console game you could play with a keyboard and mouse. But none of that changes the fact that "point of difference" is a real and often extremely lucrative asset in business - any business. Which was my only real point. Making yourself a slight variant of every other AAA action game doesn't seem like a long term winner. Then you, of all posters, should be well aware of why BioWare is going this direction. It's also great business acumen to recognize changing trends and how to best adapt them into your own product. Try to do something for the sake of being different, or that you know is less popular, and you may find yourself obsolete and out of business. BioWare has already attempted your approach several times. If your approach worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Sometimes, it's good to learn from your competitors and to try and surpass what they are doing with your own twist. Lets not judge DA4's system until we actually see it in action. You may find you might not actually miss the tactical mode nearly as much as you think, depending on how BioWare implements this new combat system.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 15, 2017 7:04:37 GMT
I'm aware of why. Doesn't mean it is the right decision to make.
Doesn't mean it isn't, either. But, again..... if you have a point of difference from every single competitor in the marketplace that some of your target market finds highly valuable, then abandoning it means you have to beat the competition at something they've been doing a long time and you're just starting to do. Or prepare for more idiots saying "hurry hurr, Cyberpunk 2077 smashed DA4", or something along those lines.
Did going "full action" help the reception of MEA? It wouldn't appear so, but if it did, then the rest of the game must be reviled.
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Post by apollexander on Aug 15, 2017 7:58:42 GMT
An interesting tidbit from a couple o' days ago...Red @dangerousalleyHey @biomarkdarrah , now that I have your attention; if DA4 were a "thing", what are my chances of seeing Advanced Tactics returning? Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrahPossible but unlikely. We are more likely to take party control in a different direction Disappointed if that would be like what I thought... I would hold the bottom line that: 1) I am able to fully control every team mate; 2) I can pause during combats. I don't want to play it like in MEA (have very limited control on followers) or TW3 (Hit and roll).
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 15, 2017 16:37:11 GMT
I'm aware of why. Doesn't mean it is the right decision to make. Doesn't mean it isn't, either. But, again..... if you have a point of difference from every single competitor in the marketplace that some of your target market finds highly valuable, then abandoning it means you have to beat the competition at something they've been doing a long time and you're just starting to do. Or prepare for more idiots saying "hurry hurr, Cyberpunk 2077 smashed DA4", or something along those lines. Did going "full action" help the reception of MEA? It wouldn't appear so, but if it did, then the rest of the game must be reviled. BioWare is going to be compared to CDPR, whether BioWare tries to emulate their model or not (they are both story-driven developers with choices in dialogue). Also, I doubt few individuals would suggest that The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt doesn't have a better open world design than both DAI and MEA. Whether you agree with the "idiots" or not, there are definitely areas BioWare could improve vastly in, and it's not just combat. As far as your point on MEA, it was merely an evolution of the combat that was in ME3. Not sure where you are going with that. You've made your position clear, and while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, BioWare's method for your philosophy has not worked. As I stated in the OP, I'd rather BioWare specialize and choose one system, rather than compromise and do neither system any justice. It seems BioWare is in agreement with me. We'll see how this new approach turns out for DA4. Disappointed if that would be like what I thought... I would hold the bottom line that: 1) I am able to fully control every team mate; 2) I can pause during combats. I don't want to play it like in MEA (have very limited control on followers) or TW3 (Hit and roll). It's a Catch 22 for BioWare. They know there are those who'd rather have only action-oriented combat. But then, there are also those that only care about tactical mode. In truth, BioWare only has themselves to blame for this dilemma. They were silly and overly-ambitious for trying to do more than they could chew from the start. At least they seem to have come to that realization after DAI's troubled gameplay.
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Post by LukeBarrett on Aug 15, 2017 20:01:21 GMT
I'd like to assume, in this hypothetical game Mark is speculating about, that 'different direction' is not equal to 'do what MEA did', at least not in the complete sense that some people appear to be reading that statement as. There is a wide range of options between the way DAI handles issuing commands/AI to followers compared to MEA. Again, just theory crafting here...
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 15, 2017 20:53:20 GMT
I'd like to assume, in this hypothetical game Mark is speculating about, that 'different direction' is not equal to 'do what MEA did', at least not in the complete sense that some people appear to be reading that statement as. There is a wide range of options between the way DAI handles issuing commands/AI to followers compared to MEA. Again, just theory crafting here... Hope springs eternal, then.
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Post by Ean'Harel on Aug 15, 2017 21:02:54 GMT
In DA:O, I liked the ability to queue orders (and my guys obeying the bloody orders); the tactics were nice, too, although it could get a bit heady at times. I only "jumped" in my companions to set up the orders (pausing the combat as I did).
In DA:I, I hardly ever use the tactic camera, or even pause (sometimes for retargeting, or whenever it's getting a bit too hairy for me to make sense of the battlefield). I like the more real-time feel to it; don't like that I have to click repeatedly on a bad guy just so I can bash him on the head. Auto-attack is a thing. I jump into my companions when I feel like it / feel confident my character won't make a fool of himself while on his own. I like that companions are, overall, more independent... but OMG as a sneaky, dirty backstabbing rogue, I miss being able to tell them to hold their ground and *mean it*. The clear command / attack my target worked fine, and are nice to use. I still don't really know what follow / defend is meant to do in the *cough* tactical *cough* screen, though.
I wouldn't mind having less tactics than DA:O, assuming my companions know what they're doing (fireball against a rage demon? lol) and that I can at least set them as healer / aggressive / crowd-controller etc. Basically something a tad more explicit than follow / defend.
And, although I personally don't mind being a bit more action-y -- if anything, I'd like combat to be harder -- I came into DA:I thinking it was the sort of RPG I was used to. I thought my combat ability was supposed to be tied to my character's skill points, not to *my* twitch reflex or how bad my tendinitis was on that day. But that would mean having to strike a balance between combat and other skills (persuasion, lock-picking etc), which DA:I doesn't offer any longer. (I keep thinking of Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magic Obscura; you could win the game by fighting or by talking, or by stealing bazillions of stuff. Fun. If my character was rubbish at combat, it didn't matter how good *I* was -- and vice-versa, to a degree!)
So... I don't know. If the future combat system detracts from roleplay, then it's a no-win for everyone. There's a gazillion hack-and-slash games out there; DA can't, and shouldn't try to, compete with them. On the other hand, if the new combat system they're thinking of walks hand-in-hand with, or even enhances, roleplay, then yes. Yes, please.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 15, 2017 21:09:14 GMT
I'd like to assume, in this hypothetical game Mark is speculating about, that 'different direction' is not equal to 'do what MEA did', at least not in the complete sense that some people appear to be reading that statement as. There is a wide range of options between the way DAI handles issuing commands/AI to followers compared to MEA. Again, just theory crafting here... I'm very curious to see where this hypothetical game, that we are all speculating about, will land in regards to handling follower commands. Especially regarding this "wide range of options" between DAI and MEA, that is most intriguing. Care to elaborate some? Just for the sake of theory crafting, of course...
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Post by apollexander on Aug 16, 2017 2:14:34 GMT
Disappointed if that would be like what I thought... I would hold the bottom line that: 1) I am able to fully control every team mate; 2) I can pause during combats. I don't want to play it like in MEA (have very limited control on followers) or TW3 (Hit and roll). It's a Catch 22 for BioWare. They know there are those who'd rather have only action-oriented combat. But then, there are also those that only care about tactical mode. In truth, BioWare only has themselves to blame for this dilemma. They were silly and overly-ambitious for trying to do more than they could chew from the start. At least they seem to have come to that realization after DAI's troubled gameplay. Your argument is somewhat fair, but in my opinion DAI had handled that well except for the stupid AI. I wouldn't mind an action-oriented game, but I hope the combat is still team-based.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Aug 16, 2017 3:10:46 GMT
BioWare is going to be compared to CDPR, whether BioWare tries to emulate their model or not (they are both story-driven developers with choices in dialogue). Also, I doubt few individuals would suggest that The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt doesn't have a better open world design than both DAI and MEA. There's only one problem: CDPR did such an outstanding job that all games compare unfavorably, which makes the comparison pointless. It's almost like CDPR gave everyone else a free pass. There's no hope of beating them, so there's no need to try. In fact, CDPR is going to have a hard time beating themselves. Expectations for Cyberpunk are going to be very high indeed, maybe too high. As a developer of a 1.0 game, over-the-top expectations are the last thing I'd want.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Aug 16, 2017 3:18:43 GMT
Here's another combat parameter to consider: pace. Soulslike games have very deliberate combat pacing, so that you can anticipate attacks for block and evade. On the other extreme are button-mashing games like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta, where combat is frantic and more about landing consecutive hits to power up a super or a combo.
DAI is kind of in the middle. A little too fast paced for perfecting blocking and evading, like in Dark Souls. I was also somewhat discouraged that I could never do a better job than the AI at skills like Block & Slash for 2H NPCs. On the other hand, it's not fast paced enough to use any of the consecutive hit or combo mechanics of button mashers. Should it stay in the middle or move in one direction or the other?
A move to more deliberate combat does call into question the handling of companions. They'd have to stay the hell out of the way if you're concentrating on doing a block & counter, or evade/roll and backstab maneuver.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 16, 2017 3:26:16 GMT
Your argument is somewhat fair, but in my opinion DAI had handled that well except for the stupid AI. I wouldn't mind an action-oriented game, but I hope the combat is still team-based. Well, based on the vague and ambiguous remarks from BioWare, there seems to be various options they can consider, outside of Advanced Tactics for follower commands. What those options will be, however, is anybody's guess. There's only one problem: CDPR did such an outstanding job that all games compare unfavorably, which makes the comparison pointless. It's almost like CDPR gave everyone else a free pass. There's no hope of beating them, so there's no need to try. In fact, CDPR is going to have a hard time beating themselves. Expectations for Cyberpunk are going to be very high indeed, maybe too high. As a developer of a 1.0 game, over-the-top expectations are the last thing I'd want. CDPR did a fantastic job with TW3, and perhaps it is unfair to set every other RPG developer to that same standard. That being said, I do believe it's a bar that all studios should strive for, at the very least of moving the genre forward. As far as Cyberpunk 2077, we'll just have to wait and see. There are a lot of crazy rumors about that game. It's going to have a character creation, the option of a first person view or third person view, cooperative multiplayer, a true open world larger than TW3, flying cars, and much more. Truth be told, Cyberpunk 2077 sounds a lot like Anthem, except we know that Cyberpunk 2077 will have a single player experience.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 16, 2017 3:28:01 GMT
I just remembered that they did show off T-H weapon parries waaaay back in the 2013 Crestwood demo. Thw "funny" thing is, I bought DAI thinking I was buying that game in the video. Then what we got was a completely watered down version. All that content from that video was cut. I wonder how many hours were wasted designing, rendering, and voicing that clip, just to throw it all away.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 16, 2017 3:30:00 GMT
Here's another combat parameter to consider: pace. Soulslike games have very deliberate combat pacing, so that you can anticipate attacks for block and evade. On the other extreme are button-mashing games like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta, where combat is frantic and more about landing consecutive hits to power up a super or a combo. DAI is kind of in the middle. A little too fast paced for perfecting blocking and evading, like in Dark Souls. I was also somewhat discouraged that I could never do a better job than the AI at skills like Block & Slash for 2H NPCs. On the other hand, it's not fast paced enough to use any of the consecutive hit or combo mechanics of button mashers. Should it stay in the middle or move in one direction or the other? A move to more deliberate combat does call into question the handling of companions. They'd have to stay the hell out of the way if you're concentrating on doing a block & counter, or evade/roll and backstab maneuver. If combat becomes that engaging and requires that level of attention from the player, I don't see how having followers we command will be practical. They more or less would have to be relegated to default AI behavior. There is strong evidence that there could be an active blocking mechanic in DA4, just because there was an active blocking mechanic in DAI before BioWare removed it. I will not be surprised if BioWare goes that direction at all, but it does call into question how exactly companions will continue to play a vital role in combat. It's this dilemma that I believe BioWare may still try to make compromises to please both play styles. That could be a recipe for disaster.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 16, 2017 3:34:22 GMT
Thw "funny" thing is, I bought DAI thinking I was buying that game in the video. Then what we got was a completely watered down version. All that content from that video was cut. I wonder how many hours were wasted designing, rendering, and voicing that clip, just to throw it all away. You can largely blame the PS3 and X360 ports of DAI for much of that content being cut. Those particular consoles were so antiquated that they could not handle the full experience that was DAI. Instead of just dropping those ports, like BioWare should have done, they gutted DAI instead in order to ensure a larger audience. The same exact situation happened with Watch_Dogs 1. It's why I'm always wary of games that come in between generations. The only company that I actually believe did it the right way was Rockstar with GTA V. They made a version that was for the X360 and PS3, and then they shortly thereafter released a version for the X1, PS4, and PC. If BioWare really was that desperate to release DAI on old hardware, they should have just given those players an inferior version of the game, while the full version was retained on then next gen hardware.
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Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 16, 2017 5:03:57 GMT
Thw "funny" thing is, I bought DAI thinking I was buying that game in the video. Then what we got was a completely watered down version. All that content from that video was cut. I wonder how many hours were wasted designing, rendering, and voicing that clip, just to throw it all away. You can largely blame the PS3 and X360 ports of DAI for much of that content being cut. Those particular consoles were so antiquated that they could not handle the full experience that was DAI. Instead of just dropping those ports, like BioWare should have done, they gutted DAI instead in order to ensure a larger audience. The same exact situation happened with Watch_Dogs 1. It's why I'm always wary of games that come in between generations. The only company that I actually believe did it the right way was Rockstar with GTA V. They made a version that was for the X360 and PS3, and then they shortly thereafter released a version for the X1, PS4, and PC. If BioWare really was that desperate to release DAI on old hardware, they should have just given those players an inferior version of the game, while the full version was retained on then next gen hardware. Ah yes, the pitfalls of showing off gameplay more than a year before release... See, this is why I'm all for the Bethesda approach to marketing - wait until the last 5-6 months before release before showing off gameplay. Yeah, BW has pointed out a number of times that the work involved to support the older consoles was... considerable. Clearly a lot compromises had to be made. Mark even tweeted recently that he regretted making the decision to support the older consoles. But it's also important to remember that things get cut, reworked, tweaked, and so on for a lot of different reasons. It'll be interesting to see when a hypothetical-future-DA-game might be released and if say... a new PS might be released around that time. And if the XBOX will have effectively supplanted the XB1 by then. Will they support the "older consoles"...?
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 16, 2017 6:17:54 GMT
Ah yes, the pitfalls of showing off gameplay more than a year before release... See, this is why I'm all for the Bethesda approach to marketing - wait until the last 5-6 months before release before showing off gameplay. Yeah, BW has pointed out a number of times that the work involved to support the older consoles was... considerable. Clearly a lot compromises had to be made. Mark even tweeted recently that he regretted making the decision to support the older consoles. But it's also important to remember that things get cut, reworked, tweaked, and so on for a lot of different reasons. It'll be interesting to see when a hypothetical-future-DA-game might be released and if say... a new PS might be released around that time. And if the XBOX will have effectively supplanted the XB1 by then. Will they support the "older consoles"...? Agreed. Many in the industry were skeptics and believed Todd Howard was foolish for revealing Fallout 4 so late. They thought that the marketing buildup to launch wouldn't be long enough, leading to suffering sales. How wrong all the critics were. Fallout 4 ended up being BGS' fastest selling game to date (Skyrim still has sold the most copies). I thought it was brilliant that BGS not only showed off actual, substantive game footage, but even gave a release date all in the same reveal. Certainly. Even had the older consoles not been supported, what we saw in 2013 wasn't a guarantee of being in the final product. It just would have been far more likely, but it's commonplace for content to be cut in order to accommodate tight schedules and a rapidly approaching release date. What I can tell you is BioWare is never going to do a demo like that ever again. Truth be told, I'd rather not see any actual footage or gameplay of DA4 until its a year or less away from release. I don't expect to see DA4 until 2020 at the earliest. I'm going to estimate that BioWare will dedicate three years of development to this game. Anthem is still the primary focus at Edmonton, so the team on DA4 is still relatively small at this point. It's possible a new generation of consoles could be out by then, which would place DA4 in a similar situation to DAI. Obviously, BioWare would want to acquire as many sales as possible, but at what cost? That being said, with these mid-generation upgrades (PS4 Pro and XB1X), I'm actually expecting this console generation to be extended as a result. Since these mid-generation upgrades aren't a vast improvement over their predecessors, it wouldn't be that much of an issue to build DA4 for PS4 and X1, but having a enhanced version for the PS4 Pro and XB1X. Obviously, timing is key. It's always better for development studios to release games on hardware that is mature and well-understood, rather than in between cycles on new and old hardware.
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Post by Brannegan on Aug 16, 2017 12:37:58 GMT
I'd like to assume, in this hypothetical game Mark is speculating about, that 'different direction' is not equal to 'do what MEA did', at least not in the complete sense that some people appear to be reading that statement as. There is a wide range of options between the way DAI handles issuing commands/AI to followers compared to MEA. Again, just theory crafting here... Oh boy... I sure hope you mean these hypothetical options aren't limited to between DAI and MEA. Because as far as I can see neither of those games had good command/AI style. DAI had a gutted to pointless tactics menu and the "stay" etc. that to this day I have never gotten to work for more than 5 seconds. And the MEA commands were so ignorable I don't remember ever using them on my one and only (hardest difficulty) playthrough. Between DAI and MEA I can only see companions becoming less important and DA4 becoming less strategic and more about having the reaction speed of a 14 year old korean boy. Now if the hypothetical game has to be an action rpg then may I hope that Dragon's Dogma is the prime source of inspiration. The AI nor commands in that game weren't the greatest either but it had some pretty fresh ideas with the followers learning tactics from players and the whole 'pawn inclination' system allowing the followers to have a bit more refined roles. Climbing on bigger foes to get to the weakspots and throwing smaller foes off the cliffs or holding them in place for the others to hit them was pretty awesome too. All in all, I'm hoping different direction means something more than the direction MEA is at and the game is still built around having a strong team vs having an OP PC and some supporting NPCs. Getting rid of potions and having healers instead would be a great way to establish how important your team is
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Post by apollexander on Aug 16, 2017 14:20:49 GMT
I'd like to assume, in this hypothetical game Mark is speculating about, that 'different direction' is not equal to 'do what MEA did', at least not in the complete sense that some people appear to be reading that statement as. There is a wide range of options between the way DAI handles issuing commands/AI to followers compared to MEA. Again, just theory crafting here... Oh boy... I sure hope you mean these hypothetical options aren't limited to between DAI and MEA. Because as far as I can see neither of those games had good command/AI style. DAI had a gutted to pointless tactics menu and the "stay" etc. that to this day I have never gotten to work for more than 5 seconds. And the MEA commands were so ignorable I don't remember ever using them on my one and only (hardest difficulty) playthrough. Between DAI and MEA I can only see companions becoming less important and DA4 becoming less strategic and more about having the reaction speed of a 14 year old korean boy. Now if the hypothetical game has to be an action rpg then may I hope that Dragon's Dogma is the prime source of inspiration. The AI nor commands in that game weren't the greatest either but it had some pretty fresh ideas with the followers learning tactics from players and the whole 'pawn inclination' system allowing the followers to have a bit more refined roles. Climbing on bigger foes to get to the weakspots and throwing smaller foes off the cliffs or holding them in place for the others to hit them was pretty awesome too. All in all, I'm hoping different direction means something more than the direction MEA is at and the game is still built around having a strong team vs having an OP PC and some supporting NPCs. Getting rid of potions and having healers instead would be a great way to establish how important your team is This. One thing I've been always annoyed with the combat of ME franchise (except ME1) is that it puts so much emphasis on the protagonist. You cannot control the companions. They have fewer powers and you have very limited customization on them. It makes me feel that the companions are just like squires (or even pets) giving some banters, while I can almost ignore them in combat.
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midnightwolf
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Post by midnightwolf on Aug 16, 2017 14:27:57 GMT
Hmm. I think I'd prefer a return of DA2 combat. It's a lovely combination of DA:O tactical combat, mixed with a little more action. My Hawke is a Force/Spirit healer Mage, who destroys everything in his path -even when I'm not controlling him. While he may not have access to the same Spells my Warden does, he's by far superior to the Mage Inquisitor. Same goes for an Assassin/Shadow Hawke. Set him up right, and he'll tear through everything before the enemy gets a shot off!
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 16, 2017 19:51:05 GMT
Oh boy... I sure hope you mean these hypothetical options aren't limited to between DAI and MEA. Because as far as I can see neither of those games had good command/AI style. DAI had a gutted to pointless tactics menu and the "stay" etc. that to this day I have never gotten to work for more than 5 seconds. And the MEA commands were so ignorable I don't remember ever using them on my one and only (hardest difficulty) playthrough. Between DAI and MEA I can only see companions becoming less important and DA4 becoming less strategic and more about having the reaction speed of a 14 year old korean boy. Now if the hypothetical game has to be an action rpg then may I hope that Dragon's Dogma is the prime source of inspiration. The AI nor commands in that game weren't the greatest either but it had some pretty fresh ideas with the followers learning tactics from players and the whole 'pawn inclination' system allowing the followers to have a bit more refined roles. Climbing on bigger foes to get to the weakspots and throwing smaller foes off the cliffs or holding them in place for the others to hit them was pretty awesome too. All in all, I'm hoping different direction means something more than the direction MEA is at and the game is still built around having a strong team vs having an OP PC and some supporting NPCs. Getting rid of potions and having healers instead would be a great way to establish how important your team is There's nothing wrong with being a 14 year old Korean boy! In all seriousness, what I took away from that reply is "don't assume we are going to handle companions like MEA, but we are likely moving away from how DAI handled them." I'm curious what these "wide range of options" could be, as they more or less stated Advanced Tactics, as we know them at least, will not return. I'm under the impression the game will be much more action-oriented than DAI, which does call into question how followers will be handled. It goes back to that divide of those who just want an action RPG, versus those that want a more strategic and party-based RPG. I'm not sure how a developer can truly make both sides happy. Most RPGs just pick one approach, generally being the "followers are optional" one. I can't see BioWare necessarily doing that for DA4, but I'm also not sure how they can still make combat work and be fun. I don't envy BioWare's task, and I sense that someone is not going to be happy with what they come up with inevitably.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 16, 2017 19:59:19 GMT
BioWare has already attempted your approach several times. If your approach worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Sometimes, it's good to learn from your competitors and to try and surpass what they are doing with your own twist. Lets not judge DA4's system until we actually see it in action. You may find you might not actually miss the tactical mode nearly as much as you think, depending on how BioWare implements this new combat system. The loss of the tactical pause is THE reason I haven't played Andromeda (though I'm tempted with the recent price cut - if the combat is tolerable I suspect it will be my favourite ME game). While I think DAO had genuinely fun combat (the best in the series), I also quite enjoy DAI's combat because of the tactical camera (which works really well) and the way the abilities work together. I'm not talking about the combos, which I never use, but how different abilities really play off each other's strengths. Like Static Cage and any ability with multiple hits or damage multipliers. Static Cage + Flask of Lightning has become my go to tactic against every boss. I will say I liked some of the spell combos in DAO, as well. I lived on Paralysis Explosion for several playthroughs.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 16, 2017 20:08:12 GMT
In DA:I, I hardly ever use the tactic camera, or even pause (sometimes for retargeting, or whenever it's getting a bit too hairy for me to make sense of the battlefield). I pause and use the tactical camera exclusively in literally every encounter. And I still play DAI. DAI's tactical camera seems like it was made just for me. I love it.
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