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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 16, 2017 20:14:20 GMT
The loss of the tactical pause is THE reason I haven't played Andromeda (though I'm tempted with the recent price cut - if the combat is tolerable I suspect it will be my favourite ME game). While I think DAO had genuinely fun combat (the best in the series), I also quite enjoy DAI's combat because of the tactical camera (which works really well) and the way the abilities work together. I'm not talking about the combos, which I never use, but how different abilities really play off each other's strengths. Like Static Cage and any ability with multiple hits or damage multipliers. Static Cage + Flask of Lightning has become my go to tactic against every boss. I will say I liked some of the spell combos in DAO, as well. I lived on Paralysis Explosion for several playthroughs. In fairness, Mass Effect was never all that "tactical" to begin with. You could tell your companion where to stand and what to attack with what, but that was the extent of it. Largely, it was just for doing combo attacks. As far as Andromeda is concerned, it does have the best combat of the entire franchise. Regardless of what you may think of the story, the combat is absolutely satisfying. I liked DAO's approach to combat. I felt it had great pacing and worked for what BioWare was originally trying to achieve: a PC-only RPG built for mouse and keyboard. I didn't like DAI's combat, however, and I think it's actually the worst in the franchise because it tries to do two entirely separate play styles. I did my first playthrough on mouse and keyboard and hated it. My second playthrough I did with a controller, which was more tolerable, but still not fun. Whatever BioWare does now, I just hope it feels good. I haven't felt good about the combat in Dragon Age since Origins in 2009.
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Post by rapscallioness on Aug 16, 2017 20:26:14 GMT
Going back to replay all of them, I still enjoy DAO's combat the most. It has a "slower" pace but I actually find the combat encounters resolve faster because DA2 had the annoying respawns and DAI many enemies are hit sponges. The abilities are also the most numerous and diverse for each class. Have to agree here. True. DAO did have that annoying character comment every-time you attacked. BUT....not every attack you made against them connected. Enemies dodged, had debuffs and had a variety of interesting attacks and could easily compensate whatever damage your party dealt. You had to think (most of the time) in order how to defeat a pack of darkspawn or even a boss. When playing DAO, I recall, my party never just ran straight into battle, I had to think as to how I wanted to do this fight. I'd pass out buffs and run the tank in first. I'd keep an eye on my party's health and toss out damage and debuffs. DA2 combat was better. Though I did feel it come off as kind of arcade style. In DAI, all you did was drop a barrier and let the party run in. The most "thinking" you did was to move a tank over to an archer or maybe a mage. Then all you and your party did was bombard them with damage until they died. Unlike the previous two games, guzzling down lyrium/stamina potions was not need for two reasons: One, the fights never lasted that long and two there was a ridculious amount of auto-powers that renewed your stamina/lyrium. So, what sets the other two games apart from DAI? Well, I've said this before and I'll say it again: healing spells. When you completely remove healing spells and change it to an excessive amount of auto/activate buffs, it makes combat less intense. The enemies are less interesting and are basically bopping you over the head with an inflatable hammer; while they just soak up the damage until they die. When I notice a mage, cleric or druid has the opportunity to cast such healing spells, I know combat is going to be a challenge. Those spells would not be present if it was not. When you remove said spells the challenge in combat is nonexistent. "Well, you can make enemies be more challenging in the options screen."
Ugh. I should not need to switch on an option to make combat more interesting. That should be in the game by default. Furthermore, since Bioware added in an option for the enemies to be interesting long after the game came out, it should be obvious combat is not good. I want my combat to be a challenge. I want to be able to think before just rushing in. I don't want enemies just to stand there and soak up every hit and then just die. And I most certainly want my damn tactics set-up menu back so combat does not feel like babysitting. Bioware should take the good with DAO combat bits and mix it with the good combat bits of DA2 . This whole MP/MMO style of combat should not be apart of a single player game -especially one with the RPG style. RPG single player games (even ones with companions) should work together to defeat the enemy and/or enemies using your mind. Not this whole, party mob rushes in and just beats enemies with a rolling pin until they can take no more. What is this? Tom and Jerry combat!?! Most of us here are adults and I doubt anyone of us appreciates having are hand held when it comes to combat. Whats next for DA4? Bioware going to wipe my character's ass?!? (shakes head). This sums up my feelings pretty well. I would like the complexity of DAO combat to return along with the more aggressive nature of DA2 combat.
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Post by Ean'Harel on Aug 16, 2017 21:53:38 GMT
In DA:I, I hardly ever use the tactic camera, or even pause (sometimes for retargeting, or whenever it's getting a bit too hairy for me to make sense of the battlefield). I pause and use the tactical camera exclusively in literally every encounter. And I still play DAI. DAI's tactical camera seems like it was made just for me. I love it. Just goes to show, it's going to be tricky to balance combat for everyone! I hope they find a way to keep most people happy. I tried the tactical camera, but I kept getting lost in trees and walls and whatnot. If not for that, I might use it a bit more. I mostly switched to real-time / no-pause because of the lack of queued orders -- one order at a time is too much micro-management for me.
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Post by wickedcool on Aug 16, 2017 22:37:41 GMT
There's no way the would go back to the slow moving awkward combat of dao. They also aren't going baldurs gate click and move My guess da4 is refined from dai with less damage sponges and I would look at trespasser for enemy combat
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 17, 2017 1:32:18 GMT
In fairness, Mass Effect was never all that "tactical" to begin with. Nor was it actiony. You could aim while paused. You could do all of your decision-making while paused. You could trigger abilities while paused. I paused and unpaused often more than once per second playing the ME games. I have never played ME in real time. That's the big change in Andromeda. As for DA, after DAO the one improvement I wanted was a properly free-roaming camera. I even suggested basing it on the battlefield camera in the Total War games, and that's exactly the camera we got in DAI. It's literally the first camera in a BioWare game I liked more than NWN's camera.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 17, 2017 2:25:22 GMT
In fairness, Mass Effect was never all that "tactical" to begin with. Nor was it actiony. You could aim while paused. You could do all of your decision-making while paused. You could trigger abilities while paused. I paused and unpaused often more than once per second playing the ME games. I have never played ME in real time. That's the big change in Andromeda. As for DA, after DAO the one improvement I wanted was a properly free-roaming camera. I even suggested basing it on the battlefield camera in the Total War games, and that's exactly the camera we got in DAI. It's literally the first camera in a BioWare game I liked more than NWN's camera. I played ME3 much the same way. Approached every fight like a surgeon, pausing & adjusting between nearly every action. So when I heard MEA was switching over to real-time-only combat, I certainly wasn't keen on losing that feature either. But having played it, it's a different feel - no question, but (IMO) quite fun actually. In DAI, I'll use the tac cam for the tougher fights, laying down precise AoEs. The easier fights I'll typically just run 'n gun. Some I'll just pause to queue up the opening actions, get barrier going, that sorta thing. Then play it out in RT from there.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 17, 2017 2:26:19 GMT
Nor was it actiony. You could aim while paused. You could do all of your decision-making while paused. You could trigger abilities while paused. I paused and unpaused often more than once per second playing the ME games. I have never played ME in real time. That's the big change in Andromeda. As for DA, after DAO the one improvement I wanted was a properly free-roaming camera. I even suggested basing it on the battlefield camera in the Total War games, and that's exactly the camera we got in DAI. It's literally the first camera in a BioWare game I liked more than NWN's camera. It may not have necessarily been "actiony" in ME1, but it was always a third person shooter. It didn't matter how many RPG elements were littered on top, it was still a twitch-based shooter. You couldn't win the game if you didn't hit the target with your attack. ME1, in truth, had terrible gameplay. I missed the RPG progression, as some of it was really interesting, but ME2 and ME3's combat was largely an improvement over what we had in ME1. You couldn't even aim. If there was a way to input abilities into a queue, I might have appreciated tactical mode more. Considering there was not, you were forced to micromanage your entire party nonstop. That, from my perspective, is not fun. If I want to be a tank, I'll play my tank. If I want to be a dpser, I'll play my dpser. In truth, I'll just go and play an MMORPG for that kind of experience, as it does it far better (and with far more abilities) than DAI ever could.
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Post by luketrevelyan on Aug 17, 2017 2:30:53 GMT
Nor was it actiony. You could aim while paused. You could do all of your decision-making while paused. You could trigger abilities while paused. I paused and unpaused often more than once per second playing the ME games. I have never played ME in real time. That's the big change in Andromeda. As for DA, after DAO the one improvement I wanted was a properly free-roaming camera. I even suggested basing it on the battlefield camera in the Total War games, and that's exactly the camera we got in DAI. It's literally the first camera in a BioWare game I liked more than NWN's camera. I played ME3 much the same way. Approached every fight like a surgeon, pausing & adjusting between nearly every action. So when I heard MEA was switching over to real-time-only combat, I certainly wasn't keen on losing that feature either. But having played it, it's a different feel - no question, but (IMO) quite fun actually. In DAI, I'll use the tac cam for the tougher fights, laying down precise AoEs. The easier fights I'll typically just run 'n gun. Some I'll just pause to queue up the opening actions, get barrier going, that sorta thing. Then play it out in RT from there. I use the DAI tactical camera in the same way. I hope they keep it and improve it. It is a nice feature to have even if I don't always use it.
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Post by mmoblitz on Aug 17, 2017 2:41:41 GMT
I agree they'll likely draw a line somewhere inbetween. I've always liked how SoM/W handles blocks and evasion, it feels and flows really well, combined with its more visceral combat and slo-mo cinematic finishers. Of course, they have the advantage of having a single, fixed protag with a narrow selection of weapons, and fewer enemy types... To add to that issue of "a narrow selection of weapons," Dragon Age has different classes. The Free Flow system would be fine for a warrior or a melee-based rogue, but how would that function for a mage or a ranger-based rogue? The Free Flow system is dependent primarily on melee combat, so BioWare would have to come up with an alternative in order to accommodate range-based characters as well as melee-based characters. Even in games, such as The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, and Assassin's Creed: Origin, the main focus of combat is still melee combat. This might be an unpopular idea, but DA4 could, potentially, use MEA for inspiration in this regard. Folks can say what they will about the story in MEA, but I think most will agree the combat was an improvement over the MET. I could see that third person shooter style of gameplay being attributed to DA4, where it's twitch-based instead of just locking onto a target. I think that would also make range-based characters far more interesting, as they can be boring and uninteresting to play in DAI due to the monotony of attacking at a far and cycling through a limited amount of skills. Your right about that! Among a myriad of other things, I really didn't like the combat of MEA. Too much was sacrificed for what we got in return. For me, they gave up the core of what the ME series was about for open world and more MP style combat which I have no interest in at all. DA is the only thing keeping me paying attention to Bioware or even EA for that matter and I have a really bad feeling that DA4 will be the MEA of the dragon age series.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 17, 2017 8:39:34 GMT
Your right about that! Among a myriad of other things, I really didn't like the combat of MEA. Too much was sacrificed for what we got in return. For me, they gave up the core of what the ME series was about for open world and more MP style combat which I have no interest in at all. DA is the only thing keeping me paying attention to Bioware or even EA for that matter and I have a really bad feeling that DA4 will be the MEA of the dragon age series. I'm not really even sure what you are addressing here. My main point was that ranged classes would be more interested if the combat was twitch-based, like Mass Effect. I used MEA as an example, given it's the most recent ME title. I am curious what you believe MEA's combat "sacrificed," however. The combat is almost identical to ME3, just with some new additions and minor tweaks.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 17, 2017 19:50:04 GMT
It may not have necessarily been "actiony" in ME1, but it was always a third person shooter. It didn't matter how many RPG elements were littered on top, it was still a twitch-based shooter. Except it wasn't. You could aim while paused. There was no way to miss unless you chose to do so.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 18, 2017 1:45:13 GMT
Except it wasn't. You could aim while paused. There was no way to miss unless you chose to do so. Unless you are referring to some sort of auto target system in the pause menu (I don't remember any of that), I'm fairly positive you are forced to actually hit your target. The game is twitch-based, even if it's a terrible 3rd person shooter.
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Aug 19, 2017 1:40:10 GMT
I like Origins' combat the most because of the enemy encounter design allowing for variable tactical situations, the bosses also having multiple approaches per play-style that reflected their own strategies, and the humble tactics menu. I didn't care for the second games combat because the encounter design was terrible and the bosses were lame damage sponges. If the 4th game is just Inquistion with the Tactics menu from ][, I'll be a very happy camper.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 19, 2017 5:20:26 GMT
I like Origins' combat the most because of the enemy encounter design allowing for variable tactical situations, the bosses also having multiple approaches per play-style that reflected their own strategies, and the humble tactics menu. I didn't care for the second games combat because the encounter design was terrible and the bosses were lame damage sponges. If the 4th game is just Inquistion with the Tactics menu from ][, I'll be a very happy camper. Mark Darrah already suggested in a Twitter post recently that Advanced Tactics will likely not be in DA4. What that means for follower commands is unknown, but it seems DA4 may be more action-oriented than any of the previous Dragon Age titles.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 21, 2017 7:42:40 GMT
Unless you are referring to some sort of auto target system in the pause menu (I don't remember any of that), I'm fairly positive you are forced to actually hit your target. The game is twitch-based, even if it's a terrible 3rd person shooter. You had to select your target, but since you could do that while paused the only variable was whether you knew how to use a mouse.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 21, 2017 11:19:14 GMT
You had to select your target, but since you could do that while paused the only variable was whether you knew how to use a mouse. Assuming knowing "how to use a mouse" means just selecting a target while paused, I hope you still realize that most players likely did not actually play that way. For one, the game was originally an Xbox 360 exclusive, which meant you had to use a controller (it came to PC the year after). Not to mention, the fact that BioWare overhauled the twitch-based combat in ME2, so that you could actually aim (among other things), suggests many did not actually like how terrible ME1's main combat system was. I'm glad you were able to enjoy the third person shooter as some sort of strategy-based experience, but I can almost guarantee you were in the minority to actually play that way, even on PC.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 21, 2017 18:11:26 GMT
You had to select your target, but since you could do that while paused the only variable was whether you knew how to use a mouse. Assuming knowing "how to use a mouse" means just selecting a target while paused, I hope you still realize that most players likely did not actually play that way. For one, the game was originally an Xbox 360 exclusive, which meant you had to use a controller (it came to PC the year after). Not to mention, the fact that BioWare overhauled the twitch-based combat in ME2, so that you could actually aim (among other things), suggests many did not actually like how terrible ME1's main combat system was. I'm glad you were able to enjoy the third person shooter as some sort of strategy-based experience, but I can almost guarantee you were in the minority to actually play that way, even on PC. I wasn't advocating for the ME1 system (though I did prefer it). I was just pointing out that there the action elements of the ME trilogy were entirely optional. ME2 and ME3 combat was made much easier through the removal of stat-driven aiming. Then you truly could not miss unless you tried. And yes, I paused to aim literally every shot.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 21, 2017 19:17:43 GMT
I wasn't advocating for the ME1 system (though I did prefer it). I was just pointing out that there the action elements of the ME trilogy were entirely optional. ME2 and ME3 combat was made much easier through the removal of stat-driven aiming. Then you truly could not miss unless you tried. And yes, I paused to aim literally every shot. While that might be true, Mass Effect has never been promoted as anything other than a 3rd person shooter action game. Especially after the overhaul of the combat system to be far more responsive in ME2, that was clearly the focus. Stat-driven aiming never made much sense, even if it sounded good on paper. Shepard was already supposed to be a war hero, yet he couldn't even hold a sniper still? BioWare made the experience all about player skill, rather than an arbitrary stat you need to level up. I could see why you hated MEA removing that feature. That being said, you were probably one of the few to actually pause for every shot. I only used that feature to command followers personally.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 21, 2017 19:28:49 GMT
Stat-driven aiming never made much sense, even if it sounded good on paper. Shepard was already supposed to be a war hero, yet he couldn't even hold a sniper still? BioWare made the experience all about player skill, rather than an arbitrary stat you need to level up. If Shepard's a war hero, why can't he aim when being controlled by an unskilled player? That's why I always oppose twitch elements in an RPG. We'll see. I haven't played MEA yet.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 21, 2017 19:31:25 GMT
Stat-driven aiming never made much sense, even if it sounded good on paper. Shepard was already supposed to be a war hero, yet he couldn't even hold a sniper still? BioWare made the experience all about player skill, rather than an arbitrary stat you need to level up. If Shepard's a war hero, why can't he aim when being controlled by an unskilled player? That's why I always oppose twitch elements in an RPG. We'll see. I haven't played MEA yet. I'd say the difficulty setting more than makes up for that possible discrepancy. Ah. Then I'm definitely skeptical of you actually enjoying it, since the tactical elements (the few that ME had) were largely removed. It's almost 100% a twitch-based shooter.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 21, 2017 19:48:11 GMT
Then I'm definitely skeptical of you actually enjoying it, since the tactical elements (the few that ME had) were largely removed. It's almost 100% a twitch-based shooter. If I can engage at range in open spaces, I'll be fine. If I'm in enclosed shooting galleries all the time (like ME2), it will be dreadful.
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Feb 19, 2017 18:14:40 GMT
February 2017
revanreborn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pax_Augusta
Heero the pilot
Pax_Augusta01
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 21, 2017 22:35:47 GMT
Then I'm definitely skeptical of you actually enjoying it, since the tactical elements (the few that ME had) were largely removed. It's almost 100% a twitch-based shooter. If I can engage at range in open spaces, I'll be fine. If I'm in enclosed shooting galleries all the time (like ME2), it will be dreadful. There's definitely a lot of open spaces, but you will also go into more enclosed areas on occasion. Of course, your amount of enjoyment may also depend on what difficulty level you play on. I always play Mass Effect games on Insanity, so my thoughts may not be indicative of lower difficulty settings.
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Quickpaw
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Tuldabar
XBL Gamertag: Shadow Quickpaw
Posts: 492 Likes: 658
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Dec 11, 2024 23:24:24 GMT
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Quickpaw
492
Sept 4, 2016 18:38:24 GMT
September 2016
quickpaw
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Tuldabar
Shadow Quickpaw
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Post by Quickpaw on Aug 21, 2017 23:41:54 GMT
One of the things I miss about Origins that both II and Inquisition did away with is the stat-based gear. So a rogue could wield a sword and wear medium armor if they used a strength-based build, or a warrior could use archery (or the Arcane warrior going at it without a staff). Now everything is class-locked.
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LukeBarrett
N3
BioWare Dev
Game Systems Director for Dragon Age
Posts: 355 Likes: 4,632
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BioWare Dev
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4,632
LukeBarrett
Game Systems Director for Dragon Age
355
August 2016
lukebarrett
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Post by LukeBarrett on Aug 23, 2017 20:00:15 GMT
One of the things I miss about Origins that both II and Inquisition did away with is the stat-based gear. So a rogue could wield a sword and wear medium armor if they used a strength-based build, or a warrior could use archery (or the Arcane warrior going at it without a staff). I too really liked this way to do equipment
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Jun 26, 2019 23:40:38 GMT
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thats1evildude
2,478
August 2016
thats1evildude
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by thats1evildude on Aug 23, 2017 22:53:20 GMT
My canon Warden was actually a tank rogue who wore heavy armour towards the end of the game. (The Legionnaire Scout specialization was made for him.) I liked it, though I don't absolutely miss the ability to wear cross-class gear like that.
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