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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 9, 2017 3:05:23 GMT
What if they make DA4 the tactics game they were hinting at last year? That would turn off alot of gamers out there . . . Truth be told, BioWare is more likely to go with action-oriented combat over tactics-based. The former appeals to a much larger base, which means a lot more money. As long as whatever they developer is engaging, fun, and has depth, I'll be satisfied. I hate the Combos mechanic. I've hated it since Mass Effect 2. I hate that it feels so mandatory in order to get decent damage. Can't some attacks be powerful on their own? The whole point is to promote and encourage using your companions in battle. It's meant to reward players who take full advantage of their party, but not necessarily penalize those that don't. Honestly, I prefer Mass Effect's approach to a party system over Dragon Age's approach. If I wanted a party system where I micro-manage everybody, I'd rather just play an MMO and be a dedicated role with friends. Otherwise, I just want to do my own thing and not be forced to micro-manage an entire party to be optimal at the game. While I love party banter and the extra level of investment that companions provide in BioWare games, I often feel their inclusion in gameplay is typically a hindrance more than anything else.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 9, 2017 3:11:31 GMT
I hate the Combos mechanic. I've hated it since Mass Effect 2. I hate that it feels so mandatory in order to get decent damage. Can't some attacks be powerful on their own? Honestly, I prefer Mass Effect's approach to a party system over Dragon Age's approach. If I wanted a party system where I micro-manage everybody, I'd rather just play an MMO and be a dedicated role with friends. Otherwise, I just want to do my own thing and not be forced to micro-manage an entire party to be optimal at the game. While I love party banter and the extra level of investment that companions provide in BioWare games, I often feel their inclusion in gameplay is typically a hindrance more than anything else. I didn't really like Mass Effect's system. You could play the game without any companions, and they usually only served to get in the way or distract enemies. You could do the whole series as a solo sniper pretty easily. I prefer DA's system where you manage your team as much as you want.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 9, 2017 3:12:11 GMT
What if they make DA4 the tactics game they were hinting at last year? That would turn off alot of gamers out there . . . Mark Darrah tweeted a little while back that they're not working on a Tactics Game. But even if they had gone ahead with that game, he made it clear at the time it would be in addition to DA4, not replacing it. And being a strategy game, they'd have outsourced it to a studio with experience if they had...
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 9, 2017 3:21:28 GMT
I didn't really like Mass Effect's system. You could play the game without any companions, and they usually only served to get in the way or distract enemies. You could do the whole series as a solo sniper pretty easily. I prefer DA's system where you manage your team as much as you want. Companions are meant to supplement gameplay in Mass Effect, but not be mandatory. I've certainly never relied on them doing an Insanity run in all four games, but they have their uses on occasion (largely for combo attacks). It's just a personal preference, but I'd rather focus on my character, rather than companions that are just tagging along for the ride. Not to mention, companion AI tends to be terrible and I find myself playing those characters more than my own, which is not what I had in mind.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Aug 9, 2017 3:52:52 GMT
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Post by ShadowAngel on Aug 9, 2017 15:23:05 GMT
Remove the hack and slash and it's already better than DAII and inquisition fir me. I'm in agreement that origins did it best.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 9, 2017 21:36:46 GMT
Remove the hack and slash and it's already better than DAII and inquisition fir me. I'm in agreement that origins did it best. With the reality that action-oriented "hack and slash" is what the general audience typically prefers, I don't expect that to change in the future for the franchise. We have to remember that DAO (before EA acquired BioWare) was originally going to be a PC-only game built for mouse and keyboard. It was meant to be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, but then BioWare had to make console ports because EA wanted more money. I don't ever see BioWare realistically making that kind of combat system ever again. What DAI had was the closest thing we'd ever get, and I'd rather not have it at all if it's that terrible.
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Post by Zatche on Aug 11, 2017 13:25:15 GMT
I actually liked DAI's combat, relatively speaking. It only got tiresome for me after a 2.5 playthroughs because the enemy health pools were so big it became more of am endurance test.
If they could speed up the overall pace of the combat (not the animations), make combos more based on gratifying (I want to set them up manually instead of the AI doing it for me), make it easier not to miss, and make the companion less Leroy Jenkins, I would really, really like it (in theory).
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 12, 2017 0:05:34 GMT
I actually liked DAI's combat, relatively speaking. It only got tiresome for me after a 2.5 playthroughs because the enemy health pools were so big it became more of am endurance test. If they could speed up the overall pace of the combat (not the animations), make combos more based on gratifying (I want to set them up manually instead of the AI doing it for me), make it easier not to miss, and make the companion less Leroy Jenkins, I would really, really like it (in theory). Honestly, if I had it my way, I'd just make the companions largely supplementary, like they are in Mass Effect. That would be the best approach for an action-oriented RPG, rather than this strange MMO combat hybrid system we currently have. It's just janky and doesn't translate very well due to making too many compromises to try and accommodate two entirely different play styles.
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Post by isaidlunch on Aug 12, 2017 4:23:16 GMT
I actually liked DAI's combat, relatively speaking. It only got tiresome for me after a 2.5 playthroughs because the enemy health pools were so big it became more of am endurance test. If they could speed up the overall pace of the combat (not the animations), make combos more based on gratifying (I want to set them up manually instead of the AI doing it for me), make it easier not to miss, and make the companion less Leroy Jenkins, I would really, really like it (in theory). Honestly, if I had it my way, I'd just make the companions largely supplementary, like they are in Mass Effect. That would be the best approach for an action-oriented RPG, rather than this strange MMO combat hybrid system we currently have. It's just janky and doesn't translate very well due to making too many compromises to try and accommodate two entirely different play styles. I'd prefer this as well, even as someone who preferred DAO's combat. If they're not going to properly support companions with features like custom tactics then I'd rather they change the gameplay to reflect that.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 12, 2017 5:20:46 GMT
I'd prefer this as well, even as someone who preferred DAO's combat. If they're not going to properly support companions with features like custom tactics then I'd rather they change the gameplay to reflect that. Agreed. For the purposes of gameplay, it's better to specialize so that the combat is as good as it can be, rather than just making it serviceable.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Aug 13, 2017 17:20:27 GMT
and make the companion less Leroy Jenkins, I would really, really like it (in theory). That was mainly a problem of the default AI settings, Follow Controlled. Once I fine-tuned those settings and the loadouts of the party, I rarely had a Leroy Jenkins problem. In fact, part of the fun of combat in DAI was min/maxing the composition and settings of my party. Granted, I had to adapt and compromise to the system, rather than the system enabling me to have a free hand, but once you accept its limitations, there are enough degrees of freedom to turn a party into your preferred type of murder squad. Here's a case in point. This is pretty typical of my approach to boss battles in DAI -- spend some time in initial setup (which includes gear, consumables, loadouts and a little Tactical mode), then just let the rest of the battle roll in real time, other than having to revive Dorian. For comparison, here's a battle with no Tactical mode prep, just run-and-gun. Here I rely mostly on AI settings and loadout, and the party does pretty well, right up until the end where I do some Tactical mode positioning and one Attack My Target for the boss. Not bad for such a complex series of battles, I think.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 13, 2017 18:01:40 GMT
I actually liked DAI's combat, relatively speaking. It only got tiresome for me after a 2.5 playthroughs because the enemy health pools were so big it became more of am endurance test. If they could speed up the overall pace of the combat (not the animations), make combos more based on gratifying (I want to set them up manually instead of the AI doing it for me), make it easier not to miss, and make the companion less Leroy Jenkins, I would really, really like it (in theory). Honestly, if I had it my way, I'd just make the companions largely supplementary, like they are in Mass Effect. That would be the best approach for an action-oriented RPG, rather than this strange MMO combat hybrid system we currently have. It's just janky and doesn't translate very well due to making too many compromises to try and accommodate two entirely different play styles. Mike Laidlaw mentioned in an interview back in December that combat was going to be one of the areas of focus in the next game. We've heard here and there that they'll likely incorporate more action-oriented elements into the game. Luke touched in this in another thread a few months back as well. (I'll preface this whole statement by saying no one combat style appeals to everyone, in fact, it's usually quite polarizing) One of the criticisms I hear frequently about DAI combat is that the fights feel very chaotic - there is a lot going on simultaneously and it's very difficulty to parse it at the necessary speed. This is not to say necessarily that the speed of the PC is the problem; the movements in DAI are actually a bit slower than in DA2 - the problem is the overall pace of the fight as a whole. Personally I think there is a place for active block/dodge and those more action oriented player actions in a combat system that feels slower and more methodical overall. I'm keen to hear other people's thoughts on the topic though
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 13, 2017 19:19:27 GMT
Mike Laidlaw mentioned in an interview back in December that combat was going to be one of the areas of focus in the next game. We've heard here and there that they'll likely incorporate more action-oriented elements into the game. Luke touched in this in another thread a few months back as well. (I'll preface this whole statement by saying no one combat style appeals to everyone, in fact, it's usually quite polarizing) One of the criticisms I hear frequently about DAI combat is that the fights feel very chaotic - there is a lot going on simultaneously and it's very difficulty to parse it at the necessary speed. This is not to say necessarily that the speed of the PC is the problem; the movements in DAI are actually a bit slower than in DA2 - the problem is the overall pace of the fight as a whole. Personally I think there is a place for active block/dodge and those more action oriented player actions in a combat system that feels slower and more methodical overall. I'm keen to hear other people's thoughts on the topic though It sounds like BioWare is looking at a much more engaging combat system, if they are serious about implementing an active block and dodge mechanic. His remarks remind me a lot of what we see in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, or more recently Assassin's Creed: Origins. My only question, which I think is an important one, is how will BioWare incorporate companions with that change. I'm all for a more engaging experience, but part of the problem with combat is the role of companions and how crucial or significant they should be. This is why I used Mass Effect as an example, as the companions are more so complementary, rather than mandatory.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 13, 2017 19:58:06 GMT
Mike Laidlaw mentioned in an interview back in December that combat was going to be one of the areas of focus in the next game. We've heard here and there that they'll likely incorporate more action-oriented elements into the game. Luke touched in this in another thread a few months back as well. It sounds like BioWare is looking at a much more engaging combat system, if they are serious about implementing an active block and dodge mechanic. His remarks remind me a lot of what we see in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, or more recently Assassin's Creed: Origins. My only question, which I think is an important one, is how will BioWare incorporate companions with that change. I'm all for a more engaging experience, but part of the problem with combat is the role of companions and how crucial or significant they should be. This is why I used Mass Effect as an example, as the companions are more so complementary, rather than mandatory. I certainly wouldn't mind them taking some inspiration from Shadow of Mordor/War. How companions are handled in a more action-oriented game is obviously an important part of the combat puzzle. We had talked about this in the other thread as well. - How much weight is given to active blocks/evasion in your defense? What will that mean for your companions? Will you be able to tailor their behavior somewhat (eg. aggressive vs defensive)? - Will defenses like barrier/guard still have role in the game? - Will you still be able to switch to other companions/issue specific orders for abilities? Or will it move towards an MEA style of combat? - What impact will this have on coordinating your attacks with party members? Will you be more self-sufficient in combat? Self-combos?
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 13, 2017 20:13:15 GMT
I certainly wouldn't mind them taking some inspiration from Shadow of Mordor/War. How companions are handled in a more action-oriented game is obviously an important part of the combat puzzle. We had talked about this in the other thread as well. - How much weight is given to active blocks/evasion in your defense? What will that mean for your companions? Will you be able to tailor their behavior somewhat (eg. aggressive vs defensive)? - Will defenses like barrier/guard still have role in the game? - Will you still be able to switch to other companions/issue specific orders for abilities? Or will it move towards an MEA style of combat? - What impact will this have on coordinating your attacks with party members? Will you be more self-sufficient in combat? Self-combos? While I'm certainly not opposed to using Rocksteady's "Free Flow" system from the Batman Arkham games, as I think it's one of the best action combat systems in the industry, I'm not sure if BioWare is going to make that drastic of a change. Not to mention, that system is built more so around counters and takedowns rather than blocking and dodging, which is something that has never really been present in Dragon Age. That's not to say that it wouldn't work, but again we'd have the issues of what role companions would play in that kind of system. Batman Arkham Knight had a scenario where Batman and Nightwing could do combo takedowns together, so there are possibilities I suppose. If we were to go to a system similar to Free Flow, I think that would force companions to play a secondary role, much like they do in MEA. Part of the reason battles seemed "chaotic" in DAI was because of that micromanaging aspect of DAI with your companions. If BioWare places all attention and emphasis on just the player character, and lets companions do their own thing, then I think the entire process would likely be streamlined and more enjoyable.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 13, 2017 20:31:22 GMT
I certainly wouldn't mind them taking some inspiration from Shadow of Mordor/War. How companions are handled in a more action-oriented game is obviously an important part of the combat puzzle. We had talked about this in the other thread as well. - How much weight is given to active blocks/evasion in your defense? What will that mean for your companions? Will you be able to tailor their behavior somewhat (eg. aggressive vs defensive)? - Will defenses like barrier/guard still have role in the game? - Will you still be able to switch to other companions/issue specific orders for abilities? Or will it move towards an MEA style of combat? - What impact will this have on coordinating your attacks with party members? Will you be more self-sufficient in combat? Self-combos? While I'm certainly not opposed to using Rocksteady's "Free Flow" system from the Batman Arkham games, as I think it's one of the best action combat systems in the industry, I'm not sure if BioWare is going to make that drastic of a change. Not to mention, that system is built more so around counters and takedowns rather than blocking and dodging, which is something that has never really been present in Dragon Age. That's not to say that it wouldn't work, but again we'd have the issues of what role companions would play in that kind of system. Batman Arkham Knight had a scenario where Batman and Nightwing could do combo takedowns together, so there are possibilities I suppose. If we were to go to a system similar to Free Flow, I think that would force companions to play a secondary role, much like they do in MEA. Part of the reason battles seemed "chaotic" in DAI was because of that micromanaging aspect of DAI with your companions. If BioWare places all attention and emphasis on just the player character, and lets companions do their own thing, then I think the entire process would likely be streamlined and more enjoyable. I agree they'll likely draw a line somewhere inbetween. I've always liked how SoM/W handles blocks and evasion, it feels and flows really well, combined with its more visceral combat and slo-mo cinematic finishers. Of course, they have the advantage of having a single, fixed protag with a narrow selection of weapons, and fewer enemy types...
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 13, 2017 22:21:55 GMT
I agree they'll likely draw a line somewhere inbetween. I've always liked how SoM/W handles blocks and evasion, it feels and flows really well, combined with its more visceral combat and slo-mo cinematic finishers. Of course, they have the advantage of having a single, fixed protag with a narrow selection of weapons, and fewer enemy types... To add to that issue of "a narrow selection of weapons," Dragon Age has different classes. The Free Flow system would be fine for a warrior or a melee-based rogue, but how would that function for a mage or a ranger-based rogue? The Free Flow system is dependent primarily on melee combat, so BioWare would have to come up with an alternative in order to accommodate range-based characters as well as melee-based characters. Even in games, such as The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, and Assassin's Creed: Origin, the main focus of combat is still melee combat. This might be an unpopular idea, but DA4 could, potentially, use MEA for inspiration in this regard. Folks can say what they will about the story in MEA, but I think most will agree the combat was an improvement over the MET. I could see that third person shooter style of gameplay being attributed to DA4, where it's twitch-based instead of just locking onto a target. I think that would also make range-based characters far more interesting, as they can be boring and uninteresting to play in DAI due to the monotony of attacking at a far and cycling through a limited amount of skills.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 15, 2017 0:28:00 GMT
An interesting tidbit from a couple o' days ago...
Red @dangerousalley Hey @biomarkdarrah , now that I have your attention; if DA4 were a "thing", what are my chances of seeing Advanced Tactics returning?
Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrah Possible but unlikely. We are more likely to take party control in a different direction
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 15, 2017 1:58:55 GMT
An interesting tidbit from a couple o' days ago...Red @dangerousalleyHey @biomarkdarrah , now that I have your attention; if DA4 were a "thing", what are my chances of seeing Advanced Tactics returning? Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrahPossible but unlikely. We are more likely to take party control in a different direction Now that is very exciting news for action-oriented combat enthusiasts. Not so much for those who were advocates of Tactical Mode, but I can't say I'm surprised that BioWare would go this direction.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 15, 2017 4:30:13 GMT
I just remembered that they did show off T-H weapon parries waaaay back in the 2013 Crestwood demo.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 15, 2017 4:34:23 GMT
I just remembered that they did show off T-H weapon parries waaaay back in the Pax 2013 Crestwood demo. *weeps bitterly for the demo that never made it into the game and wasn't "real marketing"....apparently*
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 15, 2017 4:44:16 GMT
An interesting tidbit from a couple o' days ago...Red @dangerousalleyHey @biomarkdarrah , now that I have your attention; if DA4 were a "thing", what are my chances of seeing Advanced Tactics returning? Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrahPossible but unlikely. We are more likely to take party control in a different direction Now that is very exciting news for action-oriented combat enthusiasts. Not so much for those who were advocates of Tactical Mode, but I can't say I'm surprised that BioWare would go this direction. And for people who like both and used to be able to get both it's also not great. From a business perspective it makes sense and it doesn't. It does - because "action" games sell,
The Witcher series
, Assassin's Creed, Batman:Arkham and more. It doesn't - because Bioware (with Dragon Age games to date) occupied an otherwise empty segment in the market. AAA 3D RPG with tactical combat gameplay. If you're the only shop selling chocolate flavoured ice cream, then people who want chocolate flavoured ice cream will have to come to you. Even if it isn't as popular as another flavour, you'll still do well because EVERYONE else is selling that more popular flavour and nothing else.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 15, 2017 4:59:28 GMT
I just remembered that they did show off T-H weapon parries waaaay back in the Pax 2013 Crestwood demo. *weeps bitterly for the demo that never made it into the game and wasn't "real marketing"....apparently* While I may not miss the timer , it would've been fun to defend a castle or town. I also liked the idea of hidden objectives, like burning the enemy ships, and that would impact the battle down the line, etc.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 15, 2017 5:23:19 GMT
*weeps bitterly for the demo that never made it into the game and wasn't "real marketing"....apparently* While I may not miss the timer , it would've been fun to defend a castle or town. I also liked the idea of hidden objectives, like burning the enemy ships, and that would impact the battle down the line, etc. Fair enough. Although I quite liked the timer for saving the people of Haven in IYHSB. Perhaps that's why that "mission" never made it? Too similar to Haven. But yes, all the other mechanics would've been very good to have.
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