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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 12, 2017 20:02:04 GMT
To put it simply. Asari have one biological sex and that is female, but they have multiple genders(male, female, neutral, etc).
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Post by Iakus on Aug 12, 2017 20:03:22 GMT
Asari have gender. They have one gender. That gender is female (thus, "monogendered"). Differences in gender are meaningless to them because they have no other genders to be different from. It would be like us having a name for "third handedness" when we only have left or right-hand dominance. I'm pretty sure Liara says on a dialogue "The word gender has no real meaning to us" Actually what she says is "male and female have no real meaning" to asari. Which is true, since there is no point in distinguishing between the two when "male" doesn't exist for them. Do we have special terms for carbon-based life and silicon-based life? No, such distinctions are meaningless to us (so far) This is one of the aspects of mass Effect I wished they'd explore as a purely alien mindset, rather than for it into some topical human issue. What would a truly monogendered race which reproduced via parthenogenesis be like?
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Post by Sanunes on Aug 12, 2017 20:04:02 GMT
Something that perplexes me with BioWare and the desire for attractive females, I don't remember a lot of people defending how BioWare approached Miranda in Mass Effect 2. It seems that is what being asked for in a female character one that plays up for sexual appeal with additional gratuitous butt shots.
Besides if BioWare was to make a character that people think need to be attractive there is no guarantee that it would be generally accepted as attractive to the vast majority of people that will buy the game. After some of the other comments I read since launch I think there would be no pleasing the majority since the majority has such as wide, diverse, and at times conflicting determinations.
Edit: Fixed run-on sentence.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 12, 2017 20:09:43 GMT
It seems like the developers could never decide on a consistent portrayal of the asari. According to a pre-ME2 interview, the asari are biologically asexual but according to a codex, the asari are a mono-gender race and yet Liara claims that male and female has no real meaning to them despite the fact that the asari exclusively use feminine words and pronouns. To be honest, I see the exchange between the asari and angaran ambassador as another example of the all tell, no show problem that frequents with the asari on this matter. That said, I don't find it intrusive to the asari lore because it does not make sense that the asari would consider themselves to be exclusively female. Asari are all equipped to bear young (however that's done, as we've never seen an asari with a baby bump) Thus, why they are all considered "female"
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Post by shechinah on Aug 12, 2017 20:26:22 GMT
Asari are all equipped to bear young (however that's done,l as we've never seen an asari with a baby bump) Thus, why they are all considered "female" I may not have phrased it as clearly as I could so I'll try to clarify: I consider the asari to be biologically female although I don't think that would translate to the asari considering themselves to be exclusively female. My point was and is that I don't think this part of the asari lore has ever been really consistent. It feels like that even back in the first game, there was a disconnect between how the asari were portrayed and how the asari saw themselves. An example would be the exclusively use of linguistic femininity and Liara's comment about the asari's view on male and female gender.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 12, 2017 20:54:25 GMT
Asari are all equipped to bear young (however that's done,l as we've never seen an asari with a baby bump) Thus, why they are all considered "female" I may not have phrased it as clearly as I could so I'll try to clarify: I consider the asari to be biologically female although I don't think that would translate to the asari considering themselves to be exclusively female. My point was and is that I don't think this part of the asari lore has ever been really consistent. It feels like that even back in the first game, there was a disconnect between how the asari were portrayed and how the asari saw themselves. An example would be the exclusively use of linguistic femininity and Liara's comment about the asari's view on male and female gender. I would think that using female pronouns and terminology for asari is simply a convenience for others. Or perhaps a quirk of translation software. I would suspect that asari language may not have a term for "him" or "her" simply because it's not necessary for them. There is literally nothing to distinguish the two. Heck the only real difference between an asari "mother" and "father" is "which one popped out the kid"
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Post by smilesja on Aug 12, 2017 21:10:10 GMT
Considering that in this thread, we could only find, like, two instances of "SJW influence", one of which was very minor and the other could probably be attributed to a writer not playing a Mass Effect game, I agree with this. As several other people have stated, "Don't mistake incompetence with political agenda." Remember, this is an echo chamber. The important question is not what Bioware Fanboys and Girls think. We're already sold. If we hope to see a decent Mass Effect 5, Bioware must pay attention to the AVERAGE hetero male gamer. And that means more Yennefer, less Blueberry Shrek and Tumbler Hair. This is why a lot of people don't take the social justice accusation seriously.
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Post by sageoflife on Aug 12, 2017 21:15:40 GMT
You mean the sales numbers that show this game made a profit? And what makes those echo chambers better than this one? It sold alright, but not nearly as well as it could have. Hence the hiatus. Lookism was only a part of the problem, but a significant part. And you're right, those other echo chambers are probably more toxic than this one, although I've seen a lot of nastiness here, too. All echo chambers are unhelpful, and in the long run dangerous. Snark breeds snark. Extremism feeds extremism. Here and in the larger world. It's a challenge, these days, just to allow yourself to see the "other" as a human being. You want realistic portrayals of women and men in games. I respect that. Let's make a large percentage of woman and men average. But there's a lot of people who want a few fantasy women and men. Let's be tolerant of their desires, too. I see, so you're another of Jason What's-His-Face's parrots. There is still no proof of the hiatus claim. And I don't see why I should be tolerant of people who actually think that there is some nefarious "agenda" against straight men just because the options available to them in one game don't fit their personal tastes. If a straight male player is simply disappointed that none of his options are appealing to him, yes I can sympathize with that. But when he starts claiming that Bioware hates all straight men because of that, as if he is the arbiter of what all straight men want, then I'm going to call bullshit on his narcissism and entitlement. I've said this before. If I had claimed that Bioware hates gay men because I think Dorian's mustache is unattractive, everyone would call me out on being overdramatic and self-centered, and they would be completely right to do so. But for some reason, when a straight male player claims that Bioware hates all straight men because they think Cora's haircut is unattractive, everyone is expected to accept it as a serious argument. Why the double standard?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2017 21:30:27 GMT
The problem people have is for the exact reason you stated. Liara & the codex say in ME1 that gender has no real meaning for Asari. Now, the asari suddenly care about pronouns. That would be the rub. Gender has no meaning to them and yet they get assigned a gender by other races. The Asari go their entire long lives being misgendered by ever race they come across. It makes sense that some of them would like to choose the pronouns other races use for them instead of being assigned a gender by the first alien rando they come across. You are assuming all Asari are happy with all aliens calling them by a gender they don't have, even if gender has no meaning for them, it doesnt mean they don't care about being called the wrong thing. I don't really think about gender at all but it would bother me if you were to use male pronouns for me. Universal Translator.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 12, 2017 21:35:47 GMT
I would think that using female pronouns and terminology for asari is simply a convenience for others. Or perhaps a quirk of translation software. I would suspect that asari language may not have a term for "him" or "her" simply because it's not necessary for them. There is literally nothing to distinguish the two. Heck the only real difference between an asari "mother" and "father" is "which one popped out the kid" The translation aims to specifically use the feminine versions of words. This includes even for words which masculine counterpart is no longer considered to be necessarily indicative of a gender. An example would be hunter or priest. This would suggests that the universal translator has specifically been programmed to always use linguistic femininity when translating the asari language. Furthermore, I don't see why the asari language would not have a term for "him" or "her" as even the asari themselves are biologically female, there would likely exist species on their planet(s) which would not be mono-gender. Additionally, the conversation between Shepard and Aethyta in Mass Effect 3 suggests that there are terms in the asari language to distinguish between the parents and their role in the conception. Aethyta refers to herself as the father which means she's either using the term because it's easier or that, contrary to its portrayal, asari language is not exclusively female. This which would fit with Liara's comment. Aethyta's offense suggests, to me, that it's a case of the latter and not the former. Aethyta: "Let's hope not. Anyway, she's never met her father. And... well, that was me." Shepard: "You mean you were her other mother, right?"Aethyta: "No. I didn't pop her out. Hell, she's never even met me."Shepard: "Sorry. If you were human, you'd both be called the mother regardless of which one gave birth."Aethyta: "Well, I'm not human, am I? Anthropocentric bag of dicks." I'd argue that it confirmed it but that's only if we accept that every exchange with aliens have been through an universal translator. To explain: if the term Aethyta used to refer to parental role by was translated into "father" instead of "mother" then that means that she was using a different term as translator knew to differentiate the two.
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Post by Guts on Aug 12, 2017 23:48:26 GMT
It seems like the developers could never decide on a consistent portrayal of the asari. According to a pre-ME2 interview, the asari are biologically asexual but according to a codex, the asari are a mono-gender race and yet Liara claims that male and female has no real meaning to them despite the fact that the asari exclusively use feminine words and pronouns. To be honest, I see the exchange between the asari and angaran ambassador as another example of the all tell, no show problem that frequents with the asari on this matter. That said, I don't find it intrusive to the asari lore because it does not make sense that the asari would consider themselves to be exclusively female. Yeah this was always perplexing, I think having the asari be described as an all-female species would've helped clear up some confusion. I think that's technically what the asari are, and there are some lizard species like that here on Earth, hell they even reproduce in a similar way, though the lizards don't do any mind melding.
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Post by sageoflife on Aug 12, 2017 23:52:36 GMT
Don't forget, pretty much the only reason the developers tried to claim that asari don't "count" as female, is because they getting heat for letting FemShep have a same-sex romance option, but not MaleShep. They even repudiated that asinine argument with Cora's response to being hit on by Sara Ryder.
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 13, 2017 0:09:25 GMT
And today we had a white supremacist act on U.S. I bet some of the "anti-SJWs" were there.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 0:51:22 GMT
And today we had a white supremacist act on U.S. I bet some of the "anti-SJWs" were there. "Anybody who dares question the fairly obvious SJW agenda in the world these days is a white supremacist." Neat false equivalency bro.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 0:54:07 GMT
To put it simply. Asari have one biological sex and that is female, but they have multiple genders(male, female, neutral, etc). Why would a monogendered species have any need for "genders" when they have only one?
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Post by sageoflife on Aug 13, 2017 1:12:30 GMT
And today we had a white supremacist act on U.S. I bet some of the "anti-SJWs" were there. "Anybody who dares question the fairly obvious SJW agenda in the world these days is a white supremacist." Neat false equivalency bro. More like, "many of the people screaming about the "SJW Agenda", which no one has actually been able to define, are white supremacists." The people who defended a romance novel about a Jewish concentration camp inmate falling in love with a Nazi commandant and converting to Christianity, for example.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 1:14:36 GMT
"Anybody who dares question the fairly obvious SJW agenda in the world these days is a white supremacist." Neat false equivalency bro. More like, "many of the people screaming about the "SJW Agenda", which no one has actually been able to define, are white supremacists." The people who defended a romance novel about a Jewish concentration camp inmate falling in love with a Nazi commandant and converting to Christianity, for example. What are you even talking about? Are we supposed to police literature if we don't like it?
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 13, 2017 1:17:57 GMT
And today we had a white supremacist act on U.S. I bet some of the "anti-SJWs" were there. I knew this was coming. The extremists were there, for sure. Everybody else is horrified.
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Post by sageoflife on Aug 13, 2017 1:18:36 GMT
More like, "many of the people screaming about the "SJW Agenda", which no one has actually been able to define, are white supremacists." The people who defended a romance novel about a Jewish concentration camp inmate falling in love with a Nazi commandant and converting to Christianity, for example. What are you even talking about? Are we supposed to police literature if we don't like it? The anti-SJW crowd apparently thinks that any criticism toward them at all means you're an "SJW" who wants to police people's thoughts, while they feel free to criticize anything that doesn't cater to their sensibilities. It's one of the many reasons I have become convinced that "SJWs" are just the latest boogeyman fabricated by racists, homophobes, etc. so they can pretend that they are the victims because society no longer thinks their hatred of others is acceptable.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 1:24:49 GMT
What are you even talking about? Are we supposed to police literature if we don't like it? The anti-SJW crowd apparently thinks that any criticism toward them at all means you're an "SJW" who wants to police people's thoughts, while they feel free to criticize anything that doesn't cater to their sensibilities. It's one of the many reasons I have become convinced that "SJWs" are just the latest boogeyman fabricated by racists, homophobes, etc. so they can pretend that they are the victims because society no longer thinks they're hatred of others is acceptable. So it is a-okay to dismiss people who have legitimate complaints with a few design decisions in a video game as well to lump them in with white supremacists, racists, and homophobes, etc? Please descend from you ivory tower and grace us lowly peasants with your presence, my lord.
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Post by sageoflife on Aug 13, 2017 1:33:18 GMT
The anti-SJW crowd apparently thinks that any criticism toward them at all means you're an "SJW" who wants to police people's thoughts, while they feel free to criticize anything that doesn't cater to their sensibilities. It's one of the many reasons I have become convinced that "SJWs" are just the latest boogeyman fabricated by racists, homophobes, etc. so they can pretend that they are the victims because society no longer thinks they're hatred of others is acceptable. So it is a-okay to dismiss people who have legitimate complaints with a few design decisions in a video game as well to lump them in with white supremacists, racists, and homophobes, etc? Please descend from you ivory tower and grace us lowly peasants with your presence, my lord. Where did I dismiss people with legitimate complaints? I've made a few myself. Screaming about "SJWs" ruining the game is not a legitimate complaint because no one can figure out what an "SJW" is. "The women are ugly" is not a legitimate complaint because there are many opinions about what is attractive. "Bioware hates straight men" is not a legitimate complaint because the only evidence for it is that a few loud straight didn't find their options personally appealing in one game. It's obvious that "SJWs have ruined the game" is code for "the game has too many minorities and the women aren't submissive porn stars." That's not a legitimate complaint.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 1:34:51 GMT
So it is a-okay to dismiss people who have legitimate complaints with a few design decisions in a video game as well to lump them in with white supremacists, racists, and homophobes, etc? Please descend from you ivory tower and grace us lowly peasants with your presence, my lord. Where did I dismiss people with legitimate complaints? I've made a few myself. Screaming about "SJWs" ruining the game is not a legitimate complaint because no one can figure out what an "SJW" is. "The women are ugly" is not a legitimate complaint because there are many opinions about what is attractive. "Bioware hates straight men" is not a legitimate complaint because the only evidence for it is that a few loud straight didn't find their options personally appealing in one game. It's obvious that "SJWs have ruined the game" is code for "the game has too many minorities and the women aren't submissive porn stars." That's not a legitimate complaint. And you fill my mouth with words I never said... why even bother.
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Post by sageoflife on Aug 13, 2017 1:36:25 GMT
Where did I dismiss people with legitimate complaints? I've made a few myself. Screaming about "SJWs" ruining the game is not a legitimate complaint because no one can figure out what an "SJW" is. "The women are ugly" is not a legitimate complaint because there are many opinions about what is attractive. "Bioware hates straight men" is not a legitimate complaint because the only evidence for it is that a few loud straight didn't find their options personally appealing in one game. It's obvious that "SJWs have ruined the game" is code for "the game has too many minorities and the women aren't submissive porn stars." That's not a legitimate complaint. And you fill my mouth with words I never said... why even bother. Maybe you haven't made those complaints, but you've defended others who have. Even if you personally didn't make those complaints, you did argue that they are valid things to object to.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 1:41:02 GMT
And you fill my mouth with words I never said... why even bother. Maybe you haven't made those complaints, but you've defended others who have. Even if you personally didn't make those complaints, you did argue that they are valid things to object to. I defended the complaints I've laid bare and addressed a ridiculous false equivalency that you attempted to pervert. I speak for myself only and you lumped me into multiple groups of shitty people that OI do not speak for nor defend. I never argued that the shit you listed was SJWism, but you are incredibly quick to dismiss and label anyone with a different opinion.
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Post by sageoflife on Aug 13, 2017 1:43:16 GMT
Maybe you haven't made those complaints, but you've defended others who have. Even if you personally didn't make those complaints, you did argue that they are valid things to object to. I defended the complaints I've laid bare and addressed a ridiculous false equivalency that you attempted to pervert. I speak for myself only and you lumped me into multiple groups of shitty people that OI do not speak for nor defend. I never argued that the shit you listed was SJWism, but you are incredibly quick to dismiss and label anyone with a different opinion. You claimed that people with legitimate complaints were being written off, so I listed the complaints that people were making. Now you're trying to back away from the complaints you claimed are legitimate because you ended up with egg on your face.
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