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Post by Heimdall on Dec 20, 2021 14:43:53 GMT
I haven’t really had time to put down my thoughts in full for either show, but I was just noting a similarity after watching the new season of the Witcher over the weekend.
I watched it with my brother who has never read the books and only knows the games from videos he’s watched and what I’ve told him. He complained about the heavy focus on politics getting boring for him, which made me think about how both the Witcher and The Wheel of Time have really tried to give that aspect a much heavier spotlight.
I think the impulse to make these shows more like game of thrones but pulling the politics into the limelight (not that they didn’t exist in the source material but they didn’t get as much focus at this time in the plot) is a bit misguided.
Anyone else have any general thoughts on this trend?
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 20, 2021 19:29:28 GMT
It's possible that it's a Game of Thrones influence. I think both shows so far have focused on politics a lot less than GoT, and Witcher more so than WoT. WoT's politics focus came across, to me, as a way to explain the warder bond, the Aes Sedai, and the White Tower to viewers without turning them into info dumps. The Witcher's politics, I'm not sure. I guess some of the characters wouldn't have had much to do this season if they didn't spend time on the politics.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 20, 2021 20:23:06 GMT
It's possible that it's a Game of Thrones influence. I think both shows so far have focused on politics a lot less than GoT, and Witcher more so than WoT. WoT's politics focus came across, to me, as a way to explain the warder bond, the Aes Sedai, and the White Tower to viewers without turning them into info dumps. The Witcher's politics, I'm not sure. I guess some of the characters wouldn't have had much to do this season if they didn't spend time on the politics. Until the Night King and his army came to the fore, GoT wasn't really fantasy. It was House of Cards with swords and boobs (and then dragons). So the politics of the realm was always going to be a big influence. And it was interesting. With WoT (so far) I think you're right. Info-dumps of the magnitude Jordan put into the books are just not possible in a visual medium, so they had to find a short hand, and politics of various groups is an easy way of doing that. Not always clean...but easy. With Witcher, I think politics was done better in the game(s) than in the series. Mentioned this in the Witcher thread, but I'm not really buying a large number of the political players as high level schemers. But that too, I guess is a form of shorthand to avoid needing a narrator to dump a load of exposition on the audience. Which would be terrible.
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Post by pressedcat on Dec 20, 2021 20:52:39 GMT
I think the impulse to make these shows more like game of thrones but pulling the politics into the limelight (not that they didn’t exist in the source material but they didn’t get as much focus at this time in the plot) is a bit misguided. Anyone else have any general thoughts on this trend? I can’t really comment on the Witcher as I’m not that familiar with the source material, other than playing the first half(ish) of the third game. I knew enough to recognise a lot of the characters and spot the non-linearity early on in S1. It didn’t seem overly political to me. I’m far more familiar with Wheel of Time, and to my taste they did bring in the White Tower and it’s factionalism too soon. I didn’t really feel like it served the rest of the plot too much and I would have been content had Moraine been the only Aes Sedai in the first season (Elaida also if they’d included Caemlyn). Eye of the World, much like many of its contemporaries (Brooks, Eddings etc) followed the classic heroes quest structure. What made the book series interesting was how the first book effectively turned into one big prologue, with the world only opening out in later books. I think this format would have suited the first series far better: tell a simple, self contained story; set the tone for the world; establish the main characters. Leave politicking and lore dumps for later seasons, once people were fully invested in the characters and those characters were confronted with the issues. I’m not sure how much GoT is responsible for this front-loading politics and how much is down to the ‘coup’ of getting Rosamund Pike on board (either expanding the role for her, or expanding the role to sweeten the pitch).
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Post by nopersdeviv on Dec 20, 2021 23:28:08 GMT
I read as far as the 6th book, Lord of Chaos, and I remember there being a lot of politics, but it was background stuff and most of the story focused on Rand.
It's been over 20 years since I picked these books up though, and I could be getting some of my memories from other book series I have read. ie: Sword of Truth, the Dark Sword trilogy, Tigana...etc.
I've been enjoying the show, I wouldn't compare to GoT though...maybe more towards The Witcher..? Either way, both shows are pretty good.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 2:20:04 GMT
Fun answers only ↓: Why did Barney Harris leave the show? He never read the books, so he thought there was a chance he was actually playing the Dragon, when he found out it wasn't him he left.
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Discovered he has a phobia of braids.
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Showed up late and took the wrong Way.
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 21, 2021 3:53:41 GMT
Showed up late and took the wrong Way. ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/qUctXNjCPgwPaLsZeKry.png) He forgot his dice bag and went home to fetch it. He might be just a gambler and a farmboy, but he had a bloody army to take command of.
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Post by AnDromedary on Dec 21, 2021 8:45:53 GMT
Won the lottery 3 times in a row. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/uYQYVMAupPAfTXFFwWlB.png)
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Dec 21, 2021 12:39:41 GMT
Won the lottery 3 times in a row. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/uYQYVMAupPAfTXFFwWlB.png) I've never won even a FREE Play. Though as my Dad always says "if there weren't two kinds of luck, you would have none"
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 21, 2021 19:47:17 GMT
Why did Barney Harris leave the show? He suffers from Peladophobia and got an inside tip about Tuon.
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Post by Alfonsedode on Dec 22, 2021 14:20:59 GMT
he decided to become Rosie and let her true inner self settles
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 23, 2021 20:45:07 GMT
So...I realised that due to evil time zones, the last episode becomes available today...Christmas Eve. I doubt I'll have time for two episodes before bed, but after the inevitable horror of the family Christmas movie... ![:ytho:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/TUgrlfNNaXpwHBFXXqJf.png) bah, humbug...so, episode 7 I....liked it. A whole lot, actually. Which was weird. Definitely a top two episode (not sure if it's better than 4, though).
The scene in the Ways was cool. Too short, but cool. It would have been good if they hadn't shown Padan Fain in the recap, because then it might've been a good mystery to leave hanging as he walked out of the Waygate after the EF5 EF4 plus guests.
In Fal Dara...that...that was Min...right? Except not Min. But it doesn't matter. Min sees the pattern. She likes Rand. She has no time for his - or anyone else's - shit. If it isn't Min, she's close enough that I can live with it.
My, my...Wisdom al'Meara...girl sees, girl wants, girl gets.
So Rand is still the Dragon Reborn. We think. That's good. Liked the brief recap of scenes where he used the Power without knowing it. The Ways and breaking out of the Darkfriend Hotel room.
Perrin and Rand in a love triangle. I...vaguely (and we're going a number of years back, so I will stand to be corrected on this)...but I recall a throwaway line in one of the earlier books about Perrin actually having feelings for Egwene, but never being willing to do anything about it, out of respect/friendship for Rand. Is that right? Probably unnecessary tension, given the stakes of the story these characters are living, but sometimes when your problems are that big, confronting a small, almost mundane one can be a good pressure reliever. The opening... Dragonmount! Tar Valon in the distance! References!
That was some Tier One emasculation. An unarmoured, in labour woman defeating fully armoured, trained mercenaries (Golden Bees!) in between contractions.
Pretty shitty way for a person to go, but the scene was cool.
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Post by pressedcat on Dec 23, 2021 23:37:16 GMT
So...I realised that due to evil time zones, the last episode becomes available today...Christmas Eve. I doubt I'll have time for two episodes before bed, but after the inevitable horror of the family Christmas movie... ![:ytho:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/TUgrlfNNaXpwHBFXXqJf.png) bah, humbug...so, episode 7 I....liked it. A whole lot, actually. Which was weird. Definitely a top two episode (not sure if it's better than 4, though).
Glad you liked it. I think I’m going to have to do a full season rewatch before I make a final judgement on the series. Not used to this weekly format any more!
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 23, 2021 23:41:54 GMT
Mainly episode 7 spoilers below, with some light book spoilers. In Fal Dara...that...that was Min...right? Except not Min. But it doesn't matter. Min sees the pattern. She likes Rand. She has no time for his - or anyone else's - shit. If it isn't Min, she's close enough that I can live with it. Yup, that's Min. I thought the actress was too old when I saw the first stills, but I think her performance will make it work. So Rand is still the Dragon Reborn. We think. I don't understand why people still doubt this. I think it's been pretty obvious for a while now that he was still going to be the Dragon. There was way too much misdirection for it not to be the case.
Even my mom, who never read the books, decided it was Rand because of how much he challenges Moiraine (second only to Nynaeve, who the show hammers at us is too old). Perrin and Rand in a love triangle. I...vaguely (and we're going a number of years back, so I will stand to be corrected on this)...but I recall a throwaway line in one of the earlier books about Perrin actually having feelings for Egwene, but never being willing to do anything about it, out of respect/friendship for Rand. Is that right? Yes. Much to my surprise, because I didn't remember that in the books either, there is a scene with Elyas or the Tinkers (or both?) where Perrin suggests he has feelings for Egwene, but has not done anything about it because of Rand. So as much as I hate love triangles, it didn't come from nowhere. I'm just glad it was dropped before the end of the episode. That was some Tier One emasculation. An unarmoured, in labour woman defeating fully armoured, trained mercenaries (Golden Bees!) in between contractions. I don't understand why this bothers people ![:-/](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/KsOWoVhcXUyTgnDhpOWF.png) It's in the books that she was Aiel-trained and knew from prophecy that she had to go to the battle. Plus...never been pregnant myself, but adrenaline is a powerful force, and I have no doubt that some of her display was fueled by a need to protect her baby. Did people expect her to huddle off to the side of the battlefield or something? It's got me looking forward to how awesome the "real" Aiel are going to be when they show up.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 24, 2021 0:04:42 GMT
I don't understand why this bothers people ![:-/](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/KsOWoVhcXUyTgnDhpOWF.png) It's in the books that she was Aiel-trained and knew from prophecy that she had to go to the battle. Plus...never been pregnant myself, but adrenaline is a powerful force, and I have no doubt that some of her display was fueled by a need to protect her baby. Did people expect her to huddle off to the side of the battlefield or something? It's got me looking forward to how awesome the "real" Aiel are going to be when they show up. Oh, I wasn't bothered by it. I thought it was awesome. Just shows the gap in combat proficiency between Aiel and the rest. Suffice to say that "pregnant" wouldn't necessarily have been an issue. Maybe not even 'heavily pregnant'. But she was in labour. Active labour. Adrenaline would've helped a little, but contractions for a mother already under stress (battle) are no joke. Meaning she was so much better than all of them it wasn't even funny.
Except it was kind of funny, watching them struggle to even get close while she's Dancing the Spears in between contractions. Re: Min Can't recall whether her vision of Rand showed her own face? I know in the show she said "3 beautiful women" or whatever the line was, but in the books, she did know that she was one of the three...right?
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 24, 2021 1:29:54 GMT
Can't recall whether her vision of Rand showed her own face? I know in the show she said "3 beautiful women" or whatever the line was, but in the books, she did know that she was one of the three...right? I...think so? ![:?](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/kuVkfH0oDPF0fVQukBvv.png) I think that's part of why she stuck by him. It would be just like her to keep that part to herself, though.
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 24, 2021 1:45:54 GMT
Just watched episode 8. I don't care what any of the rest of you will say, this was the best episode yet. (Edit: I'm rewatching the next day, and this opinion has changed. I'll put that in a separate post, though.) There was only one part that I have a huge problem with, though it is (potentially) a big deal. The first spoiler tag below only contains show spoilers. I will indicate book spoilers separately. I fully expected the prologue of EotW to be the cold open of this episode, but I do like what we got instead, even though it wasn't as dramatic. I think it looked futuristic without being cheesy, and I wonder how confused non-readers are right now. Turn on closed captions if you want to know what they're saying. "Don't touch him. Don't touch anything here." The difference between Rand and Mat in one small scene XD I liked the moment between Lan and Nynaeve. We got his lines from the book, so it seems they are going to back off the relationship a little bit and give us some of that slow burn angsty stuff. As for Lan's calmness about not being able to follow Moiraine, I'm torn. On the one hand, being outwardly calm is kind of Lan's thing, and even though he emotes more on the show than in the books, he still is pretty stoic much of the time. Plus, it shows that he trusts Moiraine and respects her decisions here. On the other hand, after getting a significant chunk of two whole episodes centered on the warder bond, I would think he'd be a lot more worried about Moiraine. So I dunno. I also don't like that he virtually disappears for much of the episode, but Rand needed the development time. Josha is really killing it as Rand. I can't wait to see him in future seasons. He and Moiraine are just so perfect for these roles. The mutual stubbornness is going to be delicious. ![:excited:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/kMNJFMZDJLWKmVLVAigV.gif) Loving the scene with Ishamael trying to convince Rand that the vision could come true. That's our Rand, totally not buying it. I did expect more from the explosion of power after the build-up -- maybe even a touch of balefire, to fix the crap in the next spoiler tag -- but I also get not wanting to go too big too soon, because otherwise Rand may end up with not enough space to grow in future seasons. His power shouldn't become deus ex machina. I saw a leak and theory about Loial before the episode aired. He is obviously still moving around as the scene shifts to Perrin, so he isn't dead. The theory is that they are going to use healing Loial as the reason to find the daggar, since Mat's story had to change. I do think we will find out that Moiraine was wrong about having healed Math, and we'll end up seeing a full circle of sisters heal him fully later. SEANCHAN!!!! OMG the damane look terrifying with those gags. I can't wait to hate them! The scene I have a huge problem with is inside this spoiler tag. Book spoilers are involved as well. Does drawing power through someone else possibly cause them to literally burn up and die?? I don't remember that. I really hate this whole sequence from that point on. I hope it wasn't intended for Egwene to have brought Nynaeve back to life. One of the saddest moments with Rand in the earlier books is when he tries to bring that little girl at the Stone of Tear back to life, and even he couldn't do it. He had to use balefire to bring other characters back to life, and there are huge consequences for it. I'm choosing to believe that Egwene just healed Nynaeve, because otherwise this scene is ridiculous. Book spoilers about Moiraine and events of the episode: I'm torn on my opinion of Moiraine being shielded. I completely get needing to take her out of the fight with Ishamael, but how are they going to handle this going forward? Is she going to break out of the shield herself eventually? Are they going to use this to help accelerate Nynaeve learning to heal stilling? (I know they aren't the same thing, but maybe it's a small step toward that for Nynaeve.) Or maybe Verin can help Moiraine break the shield assuming they do introduce her next season? I feel like it might negatively affect Moiraine's later sacrifice if her power and influence is so hampered this early on, but maybe not.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Dec 24, 2021 22:20:43 GMT
As a non book reader I found this episode quite confusing. My friend hated it. I thought it was OK even if I don't really understand what happened. Episode 8: So the dude in the suit is the Dark One? I somehow assumed it was some ancient creature... Real weird visual choice there. Unless this is supposed to indicate that far advanced humanity created the Dark One somehow.
So, a turning of the wheel is as long as it takes for the Dragon Reborn to be born and reset everything? And apparently the last Dragon was born when humanity was already more advanced than in real life? So the time frame could be wildly different then?
What happened with Rand there? I don't get it at all. What happens to the world if the Dragon chooses his perfect fantasy life? Why was it not the last battle but the first? And what does that even mean?
Can't tell if it's poor storytelling or supposed to make sense later.
Lan's speech to Nynaeve was so cheesy it put Lucifer's corny writing to shame, lol. Did not like it at all. They've known each other how long now? Can't be that long. Totally weird for them to be SO in love already. Worst romance I've seen in years.
So Lan doesn't know how to track Moiraine but Nynaeve does? Why? That's so dumb.
I still don't understand why Moiraine went alone. That's super risky. What is even the point of the bond and having a warder when they are not brought along for the biggest most dangerous world altering mission that mustn't fail?!
I liked Rand and Moiraine together. Was my favorite part.
I was told in the book it's Rand who kills all the trollocs. Guess that didn't jibe with the women powerrrr fantasy... The women do EVERYTHING on the show. I assume it wasn't so one sided in the books?
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Post by pressedcat on Dec 24, 2021 23:55:21 GMT
As a non book reader I found this episode quite confusing. My friend hated it. I thought it was OK even if I don't really understand what happened. Episode 8: So the dude in the suit is the Dark One? I somehow assumed it was some ancient creature... Real weird visual choice there. Unless this is supposed to indicate that far advanced humanity created the Dark One somehow.
So, a turning of the wheel is as long as it takes for the Dragon Reborn to be born and reset everything? And apparently the last Dragon was born when humanity was already more advanced than in real life? So the time frame could be wildly different then?
I haven’t watched the last episode, so this is all guess work from what I’ve read. Also spoilers from the book (though I’ll try and keep them fairly light): If the guy you are talking about is the same one as in the EF5’s earlier dreams, then that is Ba’alzamon. Ba’alzamon is one of many names given to the Dark One in this age.
He haunts the boys dreams in the book, questioning and taunting them and is the main antagonist. There’s more, but I won’t spoil the details unless you’re desperate to know.
As for Rand being the Dragon Reborn and the turnings of the wheel:
A turning of the wheel (full cycle) consists of seven ages. Lewis Therin is from the Second Age, whilst Rand is from the Third Age. By my understanding, a soul can be reborn multiple times in a turning of the wheel. A full turning later they would be reborn as the ‘same’ person, though events and people are never exactly the same (hence why changes from the books are explained as the show being from ‘another turning’).
Hope that clears things up a little. I can spoil more if you are desperate.
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 25, 2021 0:18:38 GMT
So the dude in the suit is the Dark One? I somehow assumed it was some ancient creature... Real weird visual choice there. Unless this is supposed to indicate that far advanced humanity created the Dark One somehow. The answer to that is kind of a spoiler, as even the characters themselves don't really know what's going on until book 3 or so. Do you want an answer? For the second part, advanced humanity sort of let the Dark One loose. So, a turning of the wheel is as long as it takes for the Dragon Reborn to be born and reset everything? And apparently the last Dragon was born when humanity was already more advanced than in real life? So the time frame could be wildly different then? This is the same turning of the wheel as Lews Therin, but in a different age. We are the first age (or so many fans assume). Lews Therin lived in the second age, while the main series occurs in the third age. The wheel reincarnates souls as they are needed. I want to say they can even be spun out within the same age, but I don't remember for sure. The Dragon/Dragon Reborn just happens to be a very important soul tied to world-shattering events. What happened with Rand there? I don't get it at all. What happens to the world if the Dragon chooses his perfect fantasy life? Why was it not the last battle but the first? And what does that even mean? Here is why the show really should have brought the prophecies in and explained them, rather than just alluding to them. If the Dark One manages to sway the Dragon to his side, he will be able to break the wheel and stop the cycle of reincarnation, so that he can remake reality in his own image. That would be like Satan remaking Earth and humanity in his own image. Episode spoilers: Moiraine's line there means that the battle has only just begun. They didn't really explain this either, but cuendillar (what that symbol is made of, and the substance she is holding at the end of the episode) is supposed to be unbreakable. So the fact that Rand just broke it means shit is about to go down. Hopefully they will reveal what that symbol actually is, though it's a bit of a book spoiler to explain now. Can't tell if it's poor storytelling or supposed to make sense later. A bit of both. The characters in the books don't really know what's going on at this point either, but there are things the show could have explained and chose not to. Lan's speech to Nynaeve was so cheesy it put Lucifer's corny writing to shame, lol. Did not like it at all. They've known each other how long now? Can't be that long. Totally weird for them to be SO in love already. Worst romance I've seen in years. You'd hate Robert Jordan's writing, then ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/jAgSYBMsctryOqdIwWcJ.png) Most of his romances go from 0 to "I love you" in 2 seconds flat. In the books it takes Lan and Nynaeve a long time to actually become a couple, but they confess their feelings to each other after a lot less "screen time" together, and pretty early on. These lines come straight from one of the books. So Lan doesn't know how to track Moiraine but Nynaeve does? Why? That's so dumb. Yeah, that was dumb. I thought they were going to go for the angle of Nynaeve being able to sense Moiraine's connection to the power (which is a thing channelers can do in the books, though maybe not Nynaeve specifically this early on), but that's evidently not what they were going for since Nynaeve didn't even go with them. So I don't know what "tell" she could be talking about that Lan wouldn't already know about. And then they didn't even explain. It's like they are trying to play up how powerful Nynaeve is -- and indeed, she is extremely powerful -- but I think they've done a sufficient job already of showing that she's powerful yet uncontrolled, and didn't need this. I still don't understand why Moiraine went alone. That's super risky. What is even the point of the bond and having a warder when they are not brought along for the biggest most dangerous world altering mission that mustn't fail?! Given that she thought anyone who went along would die, I'm ok with this. She wanted to try to spare Lan's life. Without getting into spoilers, that's very true to her character. I liked Rand and Moiraine together. Was my favorite part. I agree. Their relationship here is very true to how it is in the books, and I love how it's developing. I love Rand, so this was one of the best parts of the entire season for me. Chef's kiss. I hope they keep this up. I was told in the book it's Rand who kills all the trollocs. Guess that didn't jibe with the women powerrrr fantasy... The women do EVERYTHING on the show. I assume it wasn't so one sided in the books? To be honest, this "anti-woke" sort of griping is overblown and tiresome to me. Women are in positions of power in the books due to the taint on male channelers, and it has ripple effects throughout all levels of society. In the books, there is a TON of women putting down men, assuming they are incompetent, etc. (Not RJ saying it is correct, but rather showing a different angle on sexism in a society that is structured differently.) The universe in the series is a "women power fantasy." The show actually de-emphasizes how poorly women in power tend to view men. Moiraine gets screen time because she's Rosamund Pike. I do agree that I would have preferred to see Rand destroy the trollocs, however. I'm going to put in a separate post how I think this scene should have gone.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 0:24:39 GMT
Can't recall whether her vision of Rand showed her own face? I know in the show she said "3 beautiful women" or whatever the line was, but in the books, she did know that she was one of the three...right? I...think so? ![:?](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/IzbAUEtAVJBTK0Mulyes.png) I think that's part of why she stuck by him. It would be just like her to keep that part to herself, though. IIRC; yes, Min knew in the books from very early on that she was going to fall in love with Rand... and have to share him. I believe it added some flair to their romance because she was initially reluctant at first.
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 25, 2021 0:48:08 GMT
Upon rewatch, the bad parts of this episode outweigh the good parts enough to drop the episode as a whole in my ranking. This is the opposite of how I have felt about the other episodes, which I liked better after rewatching. However, the good parts are still among my favorite moments of the whole season. For what it's worth, I did my rewatch with a non-reader, and she felt like she understood everything aside from the prologue and one other thing that I will put in a spoiler tag below. I will also avoid future book spoilers in this post, aside from some vague references that only book readers would know what I mean, so I think this post is safe for Kappa Neko . The good: Rand and Moiraine. Unpopular opinion, but I am an unabashed Rand fangirl. His relationship with Moiraine, their stubbornness toward each other, and how the relationship evolves is one of my favorite aspects of the series, and a big reason why books 4 and 5 are some of the best imo. Seeing it start to develop on screen and acted so perfectly makes me excited to keep watching his character arc.
I know it sounds like I’m saying only one thing in this episode was good, but it takes up a pretty sizable part of the episode. I liked the stuff with Ishamael as well, aside from the very end. The "wait and see": Moiraine getting shielded (and it's very clearly a shield, not stilling. Reddit needs to calm the fuck down). I think it would have been better if the shield had dissolved as soon as Ishamael vanished. I'm concerned about how a powerless Moiraine will alter future events, or if this means that they will be avoiding a certain event later. However, I'm open to just seeing what they do with this next season.
Loial's stabbing...eh. I understand that this was probably a change made after Barney Harris left, and while I don't like it, I'm ok with giving them lots of leeway to rewrite the dagger fallout and Mat's story. I looked closely again and you can definitely see Loial moving during Fain's monologue to Perrin. It is easiest to see right after the cut to Rand when he bids goodbye to Moiraine. It looks like Loial is struggling to sit up or at least see what's going on.
I also think Agelmar's death was a fake out. While it initially looks like he got a spear through the chest, upon rewatch I noticed that while the armor is dented, there is no blood at all and Agelmar just looks pissed. And it's not as if RJ didn't write his own share of death fake outs.
I'm ok with the Eye being one of the…spoilery things made of cuendillar…for now. We'll see how they handle this going forward.
I think the prologue should have been the actual prologue of EotW, even though the scene we got was interesting. I think it would have made more sense when Rand talked about going mad if we'd seen devastating madness in action. All we've seen of the madness so far is Logain, and his isn't nearly so impactful. Or they could have shown the prologue the way they did it, but later in the episode show EotW’s book prologue, maybe as part of Rand’s vision at the Eye.
They didn't explain the horn, at all. My non-reader needed this explained to her because she had absolutely no idea what was going on. Hopefully they will do better explaining this next season. The bad: Lan getting sidelined for most of the episode. He should have looked more agitated at Moiraine going off without him, even if it was a restrained agitation. We should have seen him fighting through trollocs, or sneaking past them, or something to get to the Blight. Or maybe because he left the city, he could have been the first to see the trolloc horde approaching, so he doubled back to warn the city before eventually setting out again and finding Moiraine as he does in the episode.
That circle. Oh my God, that circle. I hope we find out for certain that Nynaeve was injured and not dead, because Egwene resurrecting her from the dead without devastating consequences would be lore-breaking. I'm fine with Amalisa getting addicted to how much power she was drawing because that is a thing that can happen to channelers, but having them physically burn up was a baffling choice, rather than simply getting "burned out," aka losing their connection to the source. I think the way the circle should have gone was this: the circle begins to attack the trollocs, but even with the increased power from Nynaeve and Egwene, all they can do is slow down the horde. Things are looking grim, when the scene cuts back to Rand's channeling. His lash against Ishamael is so powerful and so utterly uncontrolled that lightning strikes down all over the blight and the borderlands, demolishing the trolloc horde and causing some friendly fire. We still see Ishamael appearing to disintegrate in a much larger flash, and he still has that satisfied smirk on his face right before he disappears. His shield on Moiraine disintegrates, leaving her momentarily optimistic, until she sees the cuendillar. After Rand leaves and Lan shows up (who was running late because he saw the trolloc horde and went back to warn Fal Dara ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/CeRUIfXurYhaBmWjMBkt.png) ), she realizes that the cuendillar is actually…the book spoiler thing made of cuendillar…and therefore that this was not the last battle after all. She can say the same lines as in the show, but with the added explanation of what exactly the thing made of cuendillar is. Knowing what it is will let even non-readers know that things are only going to get worse.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 5:09:32 GMT
Season 1 Finale + Books + Quotathon + Distracted Character Summaries I can't finish. Wasn't huge on the intro. I'm glad we finally see it, but of all the ways it could've gone down, I'd have chosen differently. Felt a bit bland and I didn't like their use of subtitles. It detracted from the scene, didn't add anything. Does make me wonder if all sides of had gone would they have won, or would the loss have been total instead?
Loved the way the 'futuristic' city looked. Fares Fares for the Dark One, odd choice. Not sure about it. Echoing what Moiraine would say before she said it was fun.
Curious what you all think of it. Nynaeve says to Egwene that since she started channeling she can't hear the wind anymore. ('Round the 16min mark I think?) Then Egwene hears all the trollocs coming. When Rand asked Moiraine if she could teach him to channel and her response was the taint, that wasn't the angle I thought it'd go. Felt like they teed up that instance in the books where they describe the differences between the feelings of touching the source. For women it was something like a flower unfolding or something to that effect. Peaceful. While the guys was described as trying to hold on to something, or grasp at something in a raging river. (Someone who recently reread the books might be able to help here.)
Anyways, just the way it was framed and phrased brought my mind right to that.
Rand figuring out that Moiraine was also sacrificing herself was a nice touch. I'd wondered if she'd bring that up last ep when they were questioning her about it. Him noticing rather than her telling is a good way to frame it.
So this is ChristmasTarmon Gai'don. Mhmm whatever gets you through your last stand Agelmar. Moiraine's comment at the Eye that "every record of its existence was purged from the White Tower's libraries." Bit of non-book-reader Foreshadow for the Black Ajah? It'd make me wonder how something could be purged from their libraries at all. They're the Aes Sedai. Moiraine calls them Darkfriends almost like a red herring. Oh just DARKFRIENDS. No biggy. We've heard of those. Locked Rand in with one. Good times... I mean, Liandrin's jawline bespeaks pure evil. Rand's Perfect Dream, clearly isn't perfect. He has one wife and one kid? Trolol, he'll do so much better than that. Dark One should've had four or five Egwenes with different hair colours and three sets of triplets. (Probably with different hair colours...)
Rand's acknowledgement that that's his dream and not Egwene's is good character setting for Rand. Boring good guy stuff, but good for him. I always said "Sheenar" in my head. And I still am. Let that sit with you how it will. Sheenaran. Sheenar. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Perrin's really amped up the sulky bitchiness this ep.
All the obeisances to Loial are a great touch, from the Aes Sedai to the Faldarrans. Was Ishamael's three-fingered ring a book thing? I don't remember at all. Looks interesting, if entirely impractical. Fain made a nice (re)entrance. All these trollocs carrying torches are just because they want to start fires? They don't actually need them to see right? In general I didn't really like Agelmar's sister. I kinda dig her end though. Dying while holding that much power and seeing things from the perspective of a tiny god? After protecting a city of innocents from a trolloc invasion!? Pretty damn good way to go IMHO. Particularly if you know the Wheel will just spit you back out in a while.
Interesting. Padan Fain explains that they sent the trollocs there to bring them back, not kill them. Remember that Trolloc hauling Nynaeve off by her braid, distinctly *not* killing her? Makes a bit more sense in that light. The Bond. Now I'm wondering. If Moiraine's shielded, why doesn't it effect Lan? It was already masked, but Lan still has other benefits. And she was shielded right? Not "gentled"? Seanchan. They were not what I was expecting them to look like, I did like that they obviously had their own style and seriously ran with it. Even if it's not what I pictured I appreciate it. This is more what I pictured in my mind with the books, just more detailed, layered, and enameled. ![](https://lunastatues.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Easterling-Helm-1.jpg) ![](http://library.tarvalon.net/images/thumb/2/26/Seanchan_Helmet_Chapter_Icon.png/150px-Seanchan_Helmet_Chapter_Icon.png) I did not like them channeling a tsunami at a barren beach to kill one child. As a show of power that could've been telegraphed better. They literally go out of their way to show the beach is desolate, mountainous, and unpopulated when they pan around the child. Very poor direction. All in all I liked the ep, and the series. Lots of shit I questioned and didn't like, but altogether I'm curious for the next season. *** Perrin... hope he gets a different direction next season. As a whole I'm on the fence. I thought his killing his own wife was an interesting take, and executed well visually. They nailed the timing on it. There was trauma there that could really mold his character. Instead we seem to be getting sulky-belligerent-idiot the last bit. I don't think he needs a complete overhaul, just... maybe a slightly more heroic or motivated direction? Perrin and Egwene, books or not, just... bland tasteless useless drama. I will say again though, the idea, the twist, that Perrin had feelings for someone before killing his wife, and the timing of that reveal way after the fact, that was well done. It just needed to not be Egwene. Such a brutal idea, and for us the viewers to find out from Machin Shin gave Machin Shin so much more potency. That's a genuine deep dark secret that'd gnaw at your core. My hopes for next season, Elias and some maturing. 95% less sulking. Almost every line in the last two eps is him whingeing about something. *** Mat. We at least get a glimpse of him. Which appears to be repurposed footage from Shadar Logoth I'm guessing. He was one of my favs in the books. Before the show was released I had a hunch. If they did Mat Cauthon right he could carry the show when Rand/Moiraine weren't around. This is before I even found out Rosamund was first billed and the titular "star", which I assumed would be Rand. His humour could grease a lot of wheels in terms of conversation and ending tense scenes. High potential utility as a writing and creative tool. I don't think we got anywhere near what could've had in this regard. And I think the show really lacked that charisma it needed in an excellently used Mat Cauthon. Obviously the first and foremost being the actor leaving. But the antagonistic way he was set up. At this point he's literally a villain Moiraine just sic'd the Reds after. They wrote their perfect comedic and charismatic personae as... a twist villain. Panned out well didn't it? This might be the biggest fail of the season for me as a whole. I'll say that I think, aside from the early exit, most of the blame is on the showrunner/writers. The actor looked the part and did alright with what he had. *** Egwene. I'm prebiased against her. Even before the usual bias. Prebias. Fuck I hated reading her later chapters. And her early ones. She was a bit more tolerable on the show but that's all I got. *** Nynaeve. I liked her quite a bit. Acted well. Direction was great. I personally loved her and Lans relationship onscreen and felt it was executed well. They might not have touched on all the important aspects but they got the sense of their relationship down. The way she pursued him, his burgeoning respect for her over the course of the eps. I enjoyed it on many of the same levels I did in the books. I liked her brusqueness towards Moiraine, her protectiveness of the fielders right up to the end with Egwene. Eh, still don't know what to make of that though... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ She both wasn't, and was, what I pictured reading the books. Works for me. *** Rand. Well cast! Did a good job, but I didn't expect him to play second fiddle. That's not a negative though, just something I didn't expect. I liked Moiraine taking the lead this season as a whole. I wish it gave Rand more time to develop but 8 eps was just too short for all the needs, let alone the wants. *** I fully expected the prologue of EotW to be the cold open of this episode, but I do like what we got instead, even though it wasn't as dramatic. I think it looked futuristic without being cheesy I liked their take on it. An advanced society that uses magic rather than basic physics is tough to visualize without getting too ridiculous. "Don't touch him. Don't touch anything here." The difference between Rand and Mat in one small scene XD Indeed. In real life I hate the kids that have to put everything in their mouth to try it. In books I love those characters, they stir shit up. Mat is like that. If you've ever seen Robert Sheehan in Umbrella Academy or better yet, Misfits Season 1+2, he's a great example. I almost think he could pull off a great Mat but Mat wasn't as much of a lil shit as he plays. More roguish less comedic twattery. (Which he does well in his defense.) Josha is really killing it as Rand. I can't wait to see him in future seasons. He and Moiraine are just so perfect for these roles. The mutual stubbornness is going to be delicious. ![:excited:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/kMNJFMZDJLWKmVLVAigV.gif) Agree. He was a good choice to cast. Loving the scene with Ishamael trying to convince Rand that the vision could come true. That's our Rand, totally not buying it. I did expect more from the explosion of power after the build-up -- maybe even a touch of balefire, to fix the crap in the next spoiler tag -- but I also get not wanting to go too big too soon, because otherwise Rand may end up with not enough space to grow in future seasons. His power shouldn't become deus ex machina. I'm curious how they'll visually portray balefire. That was the one that had the spectacular 80's scifi inverted colours when it hits things, IIRC. I wonder if they'll lean into it or try an update of sorts. I saw a leak and theory about Loial before the episode aired. He is obviously still moving around as the scene shifts to Perrin, so he isn't dead. The theory is that they are going to use healing Loial as the reason to find the daggar, since Mat's story had to change. Sounds plausible. Good theory. Sounds redditish ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/LGLtCPvIKeQPFXyYM0Ed.png) Does drawing power through someone else possibly cause them to literally burn up and die?? Apparently it does now! I don't remember offhand from the books, I don't think so? It's a bit of a can of worms. If you can chain Aes Sedai and use em like batteries that has consequences. Even if it requires their initial acceptance, that can be coerced, manipulated, or straight up mind-controlled. I hope it wasn't intended for Egwene to have brought Nynaeve back to life. One of the saddest moments with Rand in the earlier books is when he tries to bring that little girl at the Stone of Tear back to life, and even he couldn't do it. He had to use balefire to bring other characters back to life, and there are huge consequences for it. I'm choosing to believe that Egwene just healed Nynaeve, because otherwise this scene is ridiculous. Ah yeah, that was a good scene in the books. I'm not sure what to make of Nynaeve's "death". I'm torn on my opinion of Moiraine being shielded. I completely get needing to take her out of the fight with Ishamael, but how are they going to handle this going forward? Is she going to break out of the shield herself eventually? Are they going to use this to help accelerate Nynaeve learning to heal stilling? (I know they aren't the same thing, but maybe it's a small step toward that for Nynaeve.) Or maybe Verin can help Moiraine break the shield assuming they do introduce her next season? I feel like it might negatively affect Moiraine's later sacrifice if her power and influence is so hampered this early on, but maybe not. Overall I think I like it. It gives Moiraine's character a chance to shine through in a different way. Nynaeve healing Moiraine on the show would be quite a nuanced step too, given her distrust. Gives the opportunity for the fielders to step up a bit too.
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 25, 2021 5:48:38 GMT
Quotes from @fuckit + show spoilers + book spoilers. When Rand asked Moiraine if she could teach him to channel and her response was the taint, that wasn't the angle I thought it'd go. Felt like they teed up that instance in the books where they describe the differences between the feelings of touching the source. For women it was something like a flower unfolding or something to that effect. Peaceful. While the guys was described as trying to hold on to something, or grasp at something in a raging river. (Someone who recently reread the books might be able to help here.) I'm just getting going on my reread, but I seem to remember Moiraine telling Rand at some point that he shouldn't use the power so much because doing so will accelerate the madness. And then doesn't she try to teach him anyway in book 4 or so, until they capture Asmodean? I do remember that the differences in the power are that you surrender to saidar, but take control of saidin. All the obeisances to Loial are a great touch, from the Aes Sedai to the Faldarrans. I liked that touch too ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/fRmRDUSyeQPnXIW0GsYL.png) The Bond. Now I'm wondering. If Moiraine's shielded, why doesn't it effect Lan? It was already masked, but Lan still has other benefits. And she was shielded right? Not "gentled"? Definitely a tied-off shield. You can see the weaves shaped like a net come down on her, then Ish does a sort of tying motion with his hand. Plus, he taunts her about being able to sense the source, but not use it. If she were stilled, she wouldn't be able to sense it at all. The weaves also look much more similar to shielding Logain, rather than gentling him. There is apparently an episode of Dusty Wheel on YouTube (maybe the aftershow?) with Brandon Sanderson where he attempts to go along with the showrunner wanting non-readers to think Moiraine was stilled (I guess to go along with the suspense from all those fake-out deaths?), and it comes across as a red herring. I haven't had a chance to watch it myself yet, though. I did not like them channeling a tsunami at a barren beach to kill one child. Why do people think this? ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/jAgSYBMsctryOqdIwWcJ.png) I doubt they even saw one small girl on the beach from where they were. The scene showed us one side of the beach, but not the other side. That little girl had to come from a nearby village, and tsunamis can go very far inland in any case. All in all I liked the ep, and the series. Lots of shit I questioned and didn't like, but altogether I'm curious for the next season. Same. I'm more skeptical than I was before, but still very interested in season 2 and excited to see more Rand. I don't think we got anywhere near what could've had in this regard. And I think the show really lacked that charisma it needed in an excellently used Mat Cauthon. Obviously the first and foremost being the actor leaving. But the antagonistic way he was set up. I think I've got an unpopular opinion here in that I don't like how Barney Harris portrayed Mat. The writing did make him darker than book Mat, but something about Barney Harris's portrayal amplified that change for me. Egwene. I'm prebiased against her. Even before the usual bias. Prebias. Fuck I hated reading her later chapters. And her early ones. She was a bit more tolerable on the show but that's all I got. Same. I can't stand Egwene in the books, and she's only somewhat better in the show than in EotW. I can't wait for Rand and Egwene to finally break up on the show so we can get the love pyramid started ![:hue:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/VuVKpoHxDVuyzvjooMiD.png) If you can chain Aes Sedai and use em like batteries that has consequences. OMG the visual this gives me... ![>:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/ojGTEqEkpIwxtpxCQjFK.png)
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Post by Kappa Neko on Dec 25, 2021 9:12:23 GMT
Putting everything in spoiler tags just in case: The answer to that is kind of a spoiler, as even the characters themselves don't really know what's going on until book 3 or so. Do you want an answer? For the second part, advanced humanity sort of let the Dark One loose. No, it's fine. Don't need the details right now. OK now I'm more confused than before about the timeline... So what happened that bombed humanity back into the stone age, so to speak? I assumed it happenes when the Dragon chooses the dark side and the wheel gets reset. However that doesn't seem to be the case going by your next explanation: I probably wasn't paying attention enough then. I thought whenever the wheel is reset the dragon chose the dark side. And I assumed that happens all the time. And that Rand would be the special one who chooses the light and stops the cycle of destruction. (Not unlike Mass Effect in a way.) OK, thanks for the clarification. OK, thanks. Yikes. Yeah that is not my cup of tea. I don't mind corny writing in certain situations. But it needs to have build up. Otherwise it's completely unrealistic and unearned to me. Love grows. It's not instant. Attraction is instant. To me that's clumsy poor writing not showing how that love grew. Then again I lean on the extreme opposite side of romance writing. In my favorite crime novel series the two main characters have been in love with each other for like 20 years now but come with so much baggage now that they can't make it work. It has gotten ridiculous and convoluted at this point and I hate what has become of the characters but it was really good for the first 4-5 books. I like angsty complicated love stories of repressed feelings. Exactly, they're playing up every female character's power and making the men sort of redundant (with the exception of Rand of course). And if that wasn't the case in the books I call agenda, sorry. It's one thing to show reverse sexism in a world where power lies with the other sex and obviously criticsing the abuse of power and suggesting that abuse has nothing to do with sex but opportunity. And in real life men tend to have a physical advantage over women that some abuse. So I'm applauding the suggestion that in a world where the power relationship is upside down, women would be the ones looking down on and abusing men. Or that's how I interpret the dynamic. And I would agree with such a notion. It's an agenda to me if the male characters get sidelined and made not important in their roles. When suddenly female character's can do even more amazinging stuff as in the books and overtake the importance of the male characters. Like how Lan can't find Moiraine without Nynaeve's help. If that's not what happened in the books, it's an obvious agenda to me. And the woke culture DOES piss me off greatly because it fans the flames of a gender war that only creates mutual resentment. And nothing good can come out of it. So every time female characters are so much more capable than the male ones I groan. This shit is everywhere now and it ruins almost all storytelling these days. Being this upset about it is probably a character flaw of mine. But it's not an imaginary problem. How big of a problem might be debatable. But it's there. Sidenote: I kinda had to laugh about the parallels to Witcher S2 with the two female leads going through the same thing. Yen lost her powers and now Moiraine has lost her powers. And if I understand correctly this wasn't the case in the WoT books either? Are they all following some kind of "how to create drama for TV 101"? LOL.
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