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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2021 8:43:12 GMT
Ep5 A much slower paced episode. Loial isn't how I pictured him in the books, but I like how they did it regardless. Better than a fully CGI mannequin, and anything bigger in terms of costume would be janky. He retains his expressions, works for a live show. *** Valda's, "light protect me, what are you?" sounded weird. I would've expected more of a swear/benediction. He almost fainted, didn't seem or sound right. It was too soft. More like... "Light!" in surprise at Perrin's eyes. "Protect me!" while he fumbles backwards. "What are you?" in disgust. *** So Episode 5: Nynaeve to me remains one of the coolest characters in the show for now. She is kinda improved from the books. I agree. *** Lan is way too emotional for me in the show. The last scene, eh. I got what they were going for but it felt like the showrunner forgot that's a bit out of character for Lan. It really was a Warder-centric ep, which I liked. Seemed like they were trying to stress the bond and general closeness but at the expense of their martial countenance.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 3, 2021 20:28:51 GMT
Yeah…not thrilled with e5, to be honest. Definitely not all bad, or even mostly, but just wasn’t feeling it. Warders I actually liked the Warder stuff (character ‘breaking’ as it was.
Jordan spent hundreds, maybe even thousands of words explaining how the bond worked, but in that final scene, Lan was grieving for his friend. His sadness reached Moiraine through the bond, which made her sad and looped back on him. The emotional feedback loop of the bond explained in moments. My wife exclaimed “oh…so she feels what he feels?” So from a visual storytelling point view, that was well done. Perrin I actually really liked the wolfbrother scene. Never a bad thing to put some hurt on the Whitecloaks. For the rest…meh. On to e6.
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Post by AnDromedary on Dec 3, 2021 20:40:54 GMT
Yeah…not thrilled with e5, to be honest. Definitely not all bad, or even mostly, but just wasn’t feeling it. Warders I actually liked the Warder stuff (character ‘breaking’ as it was.
Jordan spent hundreds, maybe even thousands of words explaining how the bond worked, but in that final scene, Lan was grieving for his friend. His sadness reached Moiraine through the bond, which made her sad and looped back on him. The emotional feedback loop of the bond explained in moments. My wife exclaimed “oh…so she feels what he feels?” So from a visual storytelling point view, that was well done. Perrin I actually really liked the wolfbrother scene. Never a bad thing to put some hurt on the Whitecloaks. For the rest…meh. On to e6. Regarding the Whitecloaks: While I love to hate Valda in the show, I am still hoping they will give us Bornhold and Byar. I found their dynamic really interesting. Right now, the Whitecloaks are just evil bastards in the show. In the books, thanks in large parts to Bornhold's character, who was half grandfatherly, half religious zealot, they were introduced in a much more nuanced way I thought, still a bunch of assholes but their righteousness wasn't quite as twisted, at least not for all of them.
Didn't we even see Bornhold in Ep2? I wonder where he went. Might already be on the way to Almoth Plain but with the discrepencies between the books and the show being what they are now, who knows... [/spoiler] [/div]
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 3, 2021 20:54:27 GMT
Yeah…not thrilled with e5, to be honest. Definitely not all bad, or even mostly, but just wasn’t feeling it. Warders I actually liked the Warder stuff (character ‘breaking’ as it was.
Jordan spent hundreds, maybe even thousands of words explaining how the bond worked, but in that final scene, Lan was grieving for his friend. His sadness reached Moiraine through the bond, which made her sad and looped back on him. The emotional feedback loop of the bond explained in moments. My wife exclaimed “oh…so she feels what he feels?” So from a visual storytelling point view, that was well done. Perrin I actually really liked the wolfbrother scene. Never a bad thing to put some hurt on the Whitecloaks. For the rest…meh. On to e6. Regarding the Whitecloaks: While I love to hate Valda in the show, I am still hoping they will give us Bornhold and Byar. I found their dynamic really interesting. Right now, the Whitecloaks are just evil bastards in the show. In the books, thanks in large parts to Bornhold's character, who was half grandfatherly, half religious zealot, they were introduced in a much more nuanced way I thought, still a bunch of assholes but their righteousness wasn't quite as twisted, at least not for all of them.
Didn't we even see Bornhold in Ep2? I wonder where he went. Might already be on the way to Almoth Plain but with the discrepencies between the books and the show being what they are now, who knows... Yeah, he advised Moiraine to ‘find one of those women’, for her Trolloc wound. We are definitely in a different turning of the Wheel. But that’s ok. Peter Jackson didn’t have Tom Bombadil, and the world didn’t end. I like Sanderson’s suggestion that we view the show as a different spinning of the Third Age than the one we read in the books. Broadly similar, but not identical.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2021 21:28:33 GMT
More Ep5/books Yeah…not thrilled with e5, to be honest. Definitely not all bad, or even mostly, but just wasn’t feeling it. Warders I actually liked the Warder stuff (character ‘breaking’ as it was. Jordan spent hundreds, maybe even thousands of words explaining how the bond worked, but in that final scene, Lan was grieving for his friend. His sadness reached Moiraine through the bond, which made her sad and looped back on him. The emotional feedback loop of the bond explained in moments. My wife exclaimed “oh…so she feels what he feels?” So from a visual storytelling point view, that was well done. I thought so too. It was out of character but a good scene nonetheless. Guess this turning of the wheel Lan's more emotionally open. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ *** I actually really liked the wolfbrother scene. Never a bad thing to put some hurt on the Whitecloaks. I'm on the fence with the entire wolfbrother execution so far. Few things I don't really like, but the plot itself is one of my favourites in the books. That scene in particular I already said I didn't like Valda's portrayal, at all. Perrins was alright? Probably need to rewatch it without focusing on Valda's whimpering though. The wolfbrother plot was one of my favourites in the books. The execution so far has been lukewarm for me. I really wish the wolves were CGI instead of cute puppy dawgs trying to act ever so ferocious. I love dogs, but dogs are dogs. The wolves in the books seemed a bit smarter, and certainly bigger than huskies/malamutes. More rugged too, mattes, dirty coats, etc. It's a bit of a tall order to have one of the dogs try to, "act like he quietly knows something you don't." Did a quick search and this pic showcases what I see every time them cute dogs show up.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Dec 3, 2021 23:02:08 GMT
Episode 5: I liked the episode well enough. Lots of Lan in there, so I was very pleased. Absolutely my favorite character!
Loved the stuff with the psycho Whitecloak. He's so wonderfully evil. Great casting! I find him very enjoyable even if so far very one dimensional.
The white tower and the town below look gorgeous. Great art style. Don't know why people here don't like it.
I don't know how I cannot ship Moiraine and Lan, it's killing me. The bond they have is so deep and beautiful. But then again that's the case for all of them. Really tragic stuff with the surviving warder. Saw that coming though of course.
This whole sequence was really well shot. Very haunting. How also the warders care deeply for one another and form great friendships. And then of course seeing how it affects Moiraine who's terrified this could happen to Lan. The way they hold onto one another even before the suicide. No words, they understand one another. Their bond will eventually fuck one of them over. Whoever goes first is screwed. So I didn't see that just as a feedback loop of involuntary grief but a mirror in general of what one of them will be going through.
The ogre was adorable. Loved the costume design there.
The time jump being "only" one month is not as bad as I had been told. They have a lot of material to cover I imagine and not enough time. Still a bit weird. Especially for the whole Nynaeve/Lan thing. First they have their moment, then apparently they've barely spoken ever since. Is that the same way in the books? And does Thom disappear in the books too for a while?
The red sister Leandrin is well cast too. She looks like a royal bitch.
I like the kind of role reversal between men and women in regard to the whole bonding thing. The men seem really emotional and affectionate. And they have trouble bonding to another woman. That's an interesting depiction of the strong stoic protector. Sure, Lan is rather quiet but he's very open with his emotions at the same time. I don't care if he's not like that in the books. I love that!
Moiraine is my second favorite character. I like quiet characters, obviously. She's so reserved on the outside yet very emotional too and quite affectionate with Lan in their silent love for one another.
I don't know if it's an age thing but I still care least of all for the four young friends. Don't find them particular interesting yet. I'm meh on the werewolf (?) thing. And Egwene still bores me to death. They can talk about how amazing she is all they want, that actress has no charisma.
I liked Nynaeve better in this episode. The actress isn't that bad playing somebody proud, prickly, yet scared like a child. I hope I warm up to her and she'll have decent chemistry with Lan's actor if I'm going to have to watch this happen, lol. I guess not knowing the books helps me enjoy the show. Well, as long as I get enough Lan and Moiraine, haha. Pleas tell me they'll be there until the end?!? Can I send a request somewhere to ditch the kids and write a story about Aes Sedai and their warders? Thank you!
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 4, 2021 1:41:22 GMT
Yeah…not thrilled with e5, to be honest. Definitely not all bad, or even mostly, but just wasn’t feeling it. Warders I actually liked the Warder stuff (character ‘breaking’ as it was.
Jordan spent hundreds, maybe even thousands of words explaining how the bond worked, but in that final scene, Lan was grieving for his friend. His sadness reached Moiraine through the bond, which made her sad and looped back on him. The emotional feedback loop of the bond explained in moments. My wife exclaimed “oh…so she feels what he feels?” So from a visual storytelling point view, that was well done. Perrin I actually really liked the wolfbrother scene. Never a bad thing to put some hurt on the Whitecloaks. For the rest…meh. On to e6. I feel the same way. Once again the Aes Sedai and Warder material is the highlight of Amazon's script. I saw the leaks for Loial's design a month ago, but seeing the actor in motion made the design look okay. The only gripe i have with the design for now is that Loial's a super manlet. Also, when Valda was interrogating Egwene i was hoping that he would have gotten rid of the mole.
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 4, 2021 1:50:41 GMT
Anyone else notice how square shaped Liandrin's head is? She could take an Indiana Jones' tier punch to the chin and not flinch.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 4, 2021 2:00:24 GMT
Yeah…not thrilled with e5, to be honest. Definitely not all bad, or even mostly, but just wasn’t feeling it. Warders I actually liked the Warder stuff (character ‘breaking’ as it was.
Jordan spent hundreds, maybe even thousands of words explaining how the bond worked, but in that final scene, Lan was grieving for his friend. His sadness reached Moiraine through the bond, which made her sad and looped back on him. The emotional feedback loop of the bond explained in moments. My wife exclaimed “oh…so she feels what he feels?” So from a visual storytelling point view, that was well done. Perrin I actually really liked the wolfbrother scene. Never a bad thing to put some hurt on the Whitecloaks. For the rest…meh. On to e6. I feel the same way. Once again the Aes Sedai and Warder material is the highlight of Amazon's script. I saw the leaks for Loial's design a month ago, but seeing the actor in motion made the design look okay. The only gripe i have with the design for now is that Loial's a super manlet. Also, when Valda was interrogating Egwene i was hoping that he would have gotten rid of the mole. Cindy Crawford would like a word. Loial was cool, though. Not what I would have pictured, but exactly what I imagined in terms of personality and demeanour.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 4, 2021 2:25:38 GMT
Episode 5: I liked the episode well enough. Lots of Lan in there, so I was very pleased. Absolutely my favorite character!
Loved the stuff with the psycho Whitecloak. He's so wonderfully evil. Great casting! I find him very enjoyable even if so far very one dimensional.
The white tower and the town below look gorgeous. Great art style. Don't know why people here don't like it.
I don't know how I cannot ship Moiraine and Lan, it's killing me. The bond they have is so deep and beautiful. But then again that's the case for all of them. Really tragic stuff with the surviving warder. Saw that coming though of course.
This whole sequence was really well shot. Very haunting. How also the warders care deeply for one another and form great friendships. And then of course seeing how it affects Moiraine who's terrified this could happen to Lan. The way they hold onto one another even before the suicide. No words, they understand one another. Their bond will eventually fuck one of them over. Whoever goes first is screwed. So I didn't see that just as a feedback loop of involuntary grief but a mirror in general of what one of them will be going through.
I like the kind of role reversal between men and women in regard to the whole bonding thing. The men seem really emotional and affectionate. And they have trouble bonding to another woman. That's an interesting depiction of the strong stoic protector. Sure, Lan is rather quiet but he's very open with his emotions at the same time. I don't care if he's not like that in the books. I love that!
I guess not knowing the books helps me enjoy the show. Well, as long as I get enough Lan and Moiraine, haha. Pleas tell me they'll be there until the end?!? Can I send a request somewhere to ditch the kids and write a story about Aes Sedai and their warders? Thank you! Regarding Lan and his stoicism My memory might be getting a little foggy here, but I was sure that once we started getting chapters from his POV, he revealed himself to be quite emotional (a still waters run deep, kind of thing). The show can’t do that, so they’re showing him emote way more than he did in the books, especially the early ones. Regarding the bond, generally Again, it has been a while, but from what I recall, the Aes Sedai suffered less than the Warder did in the reversed situation (I.e. the Warder dies first), and they could ease their pain with the Power (or by bonding another if they only had one to start with). Regarding will they be there at the end…if they’d been following the books more closely, we could probably tell you…but honestly, right now I’ve got no idea.
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 4, 2021 2:57:12 GMT
I feel the same way. Once again the Aes Sedai and Warder material is the highlight of Amazon's script. I saw the leaks for Loial's design a month ago, but seeing the actor in motion made the design look okay. The only gripe i have with the design for now is that Loial's a super manlet. Also, when Valda was interrogating Egwene i was hoping that he would have gotten rid of the mole. Cindy Crawford would like a word. Loial was cool, though. Not what I would have pictured, but exactly what I imagined in terms of personality and demeanour. The actor did a good job in replicating Loial's personality. He's the type of person who will tell you about the history, and manufacturing of toilet paper while you're in the middle of trolloc infested woods trying to find a safe spot to take a shit.
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 4, 2021 4:50:16 GMT
Watching episode 5 now and just gonna dump my thoughts here. I'll read all your spoilers afterwards. Nynaeve playing with her braid (though not quite tugging it) took me out of that otherwise somber funeral scene. WTF a one month time skip? WHYYYYYYYYY??? Ok, it doesn't bother me with the Aes Sedai group, but once it cut to Rand and Mat, I feel like we've completely missed...something. Not Caemlyn or plot, necessarily. (I mean...yeah, those things got skipped, but that's not what's bothering me.) Character growth? Or character decay in Mat's case? I thought they were going to go for a flashback when Mat said Thom was dead, but no. I like the look of Tar Valon, though. Moiraine rolling her eyes at Nynaeve's "maybe it's you Aes Sedai who shouldn't underestimate me" was gold I don't remember Moiraine being so mentor-like to Nynaeve, but I don't know if that's my memory's fault or if that's a change the show made. I like Loial's introduction. Finally we get "Rand is an aielman!" I definitely didn't get teary when the Warders were preparing for the funeral. Nope! Not me That actress is perfect for Liandrin. She makes me feel greasy. But not a good greasy. I liked this episode, aside from the odd beginning. I think the Aes Sedai and Warder parts were a lot stronger than most of the kids' plot, however.
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 4, 2021 5:16:17 GMT
- I feel like they are getting quite a few of the pronunciations wrong. In both the (old) audio books and the video game from 2001 (both on which Robert Jordan himself consulted), it's pronounced Tar VAlon. Here they saying Tar vaLON, with the emphasis on the last syllable. the was already the case for what I knew as SHAdar LOgoth and they are pronouncing it shaDAR loGOTH. And again for Loial, who in the audio books is pronounced like the word "loyal", here, he introduces himself as loiAL. It might just be unfamiliar but still, it bothers me. I noticed that, too. Back when I read the books, I spent a fair amount of time in the glossary making sure I was getting the pronunciations right, and I was starting to wonder if I'd gone insane. So I didn't see that just as a feedback loop of involuntary grief but a mirror in general of what one of them will be going through. I saw it that way as well, especially since Moiraine brought up researching how to break the bond when she was talking with Alanna. I don't know if it's an age thing but I still care least of all for the four young friends. Don't find them particular interesting yet. I'm meh on the werewolf (?) thing. And Egwene still bores me to death. They can talk about how amazing she is all they want, that actress has no charisma. I wasn't all that interested in the wolf plot when I read the books, and I'm still not that interested in it now. I don't know if you can blame the actress for Egwene's lack of charisma. Show Egwene is still a lot more likeable than book Egwene. Rand was always one of my favorite characters, which I think was an unpopular opinion I do find him interesting in the show, but that's probably why. I guess not knowing the books helps me enjoy the show. Probably. It's letting you enjoy it without getting distracted by differences from the books, and when you don't know about the differences, there isn't much to dislike about the show. It's been long enough since I read them that most of the differences don't bother me either. I haven't felt the need to think of the show as another turning of the wheel, and I hope it stays that way. Pleas tell me they'll be there until the end?!? Do you want an answer to that?
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Post by Kappa Neko on Dec 4, 2021 11:31:10 GMT
After mulling over the episode focused on the bond between Aes Sedai and their warder(s), I can't help seeing it in a less favorable romanticized way... Putting spoiler tags to be on the safe side: The bond between them is quite the female romantic POWER fantasy. Who doesn't dream of a partner who is so singularly devoted and can literally feel what their woman is feeling and forms a bond that puts any regular relationship, even passionate ones, to shame?
The thing is, it's orchestrated. The way I understand it, it's the bonding ritual that generates this deep devotion. The warder cannot help it. And they are the ones who get screwed over big time when they fail their duty and are left behind. I don't know how common suicide is but they literally only live to serve their woman. It's their entire purpose.
It's almost a kind of emotional slavery, really. It's highly manipulative and ultimately incredibly cruel. Especially if the Aes Sedai is not equally devastated and suicidal if their warder dies.
Obviously in this society women are the ones in power and they exert immense power over their warder puppets too. I don't doubt that many Aes Sedai deeply care for their warders too. I guess it's a natural development when two people spend their entire lives together, day and night.
Yet it's a relationship that is not equal. It's kind of like an arranged marriage of sorts? But where the male has no say it in. Or can they refuse?
I'm wondering, when they have a sexual relationship is that something the Aes Sedai demands and the warder has to comply like the tool that he is? Or do they have a choice there?
I'm wondering because of the conversation Lan has with Stepin about what sounded to me like the sexual appetite of his new "mistress"? Or did I get that wrong?
That would only make it worse...
How is the bond treated in the books? Is it seen as something amazing and 100% beautiful and great or is it depicted as a highly ambivalent thing for the reasons I just stated?
Maybe I'm reading too much into it. But what happened to Stepin is cruel. Some people might say death is always cruel to the survivor. And it's true. But most people do not commit suicide. How often does that happen to warders?
I love Moiraine for inquiring about resolving the bond with Lan to protect him from the same sad fate. THAT is truly beautiful. He's not just a lapdog to her. He's a human being. Does that happen in the books as well? It would suggest that the sorceresses know that what is being done to the warders with the bonding is not entirely OK. Or maybe not OK at all...
You know what, it's maybe a good thing Moiraine and Lan love one another platonically because at this point it might make me uncomfortable if they're sexual toy boys on top of it. Even if they think they want it too.
So what I'd LOVE to see is Moiraine actually dissolve the bond with Lan and have them actually naturally care for one another. Kind of reminiscent of the Witcher where Yen can't tell if Geralt only loves her because he made that wish and it's not real.
Just my thoughts on the matter as a newcomer.
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 4, 2021 17:27:13 GMT
After mulling over the episode focused on the bond between Aes Sedai and their warder(s), I can't help seeing it in a less favorable romanticized way... Putting spoiler tags to be on the safe side: The bond between them is quite the female romantic POWER fantasy. Who doesn't dream of a partner who is so singularly devoted and can literally feel what their woman is feeling and forms a bond that puts any regular relationship, even passionate ones, to shame?
The thing is, it's orchestrated. The way I understand it, it's the bonding ritual that generates this deep devotion. The warder cannot help it. And they are the ones who get screwed over big time when they fail their duty and are left behind. I don't know how common suicide is but they literally only live to serve their woman. It's their entire purpose.
It's almost a kind of emotional slavery, really. It's highly manipulative and ultimately incredibly cruel. Especially if the Aes Sedai is not equally devastated and suicidal if their warder dies.
Obviously in this society women are the ones in power and they exert immense power over their warder puppets too. I don't doubt that many Aes Sedai deeply care for their warders too. I guess it's a natural development when two people spend their entire lives together, day and night.
Yet it's a relationship that is not equal. It's kind of like an arranged marriage of sorts? But where the male has no say it in. Or can they refuse?
I'm wondering, when they have a sexual relationship is that something the Aes Sedai demands and the warder has to comply like the tool that he is? Or do they have a choice there?
I'm wondering because of the conversation Lan has with Stepin about what sounded to me like the sexual appetite of his new "mistress"? Or did I get that wrong?
That would only make it worse...
How is the bond treated in the books? Is it seen as something amazing and 100% beautiful and great or is it depicted as a highly ambivalent thing for the reasons I just stated?
Maybe I'm reading too much into it. But what happened to Stepin is cruel. Some people might say death is always cruel to the survivor. And it's true. But most people do not commit suicide. How often does that happen to warders?
I love Moiraine for inquiring about resolving the bond with Lan to protect him from the same sad fate. THAT is truly beautiful. He's not just a lapdog to her. He's a human being. Does that happen in the books as well? It would suggest that the sorceresses know that what is being done to the warders with the bonding is not entirely OK. Or maybe not OK at all...
You know what, it's maybe a good thing Moiraine and Lan love one another platonically because at this point it might make me uncomfortable if they're sexual toy boys on top of it. Even if they think they want it too.
So what I'd LOVE to see is Moiraine actually dissolve the bond with Lan and have them actually naturally care for one another. Kind of reminiscent of the Witcher where Yen can't tell if Geralt only loves her because he made that wish and it's not real.
Just my thoughts on the matter as a newcomer. I'll gather non-spoilery parts of the wiki to answer most of your questions, because I don't want to go by memory and get it wrong. However, an Aes Sedai bonding anyone without their consent is considered somewhat akin to rape, so all (or virtually all) the Warders you see consented to the bonding (which does not mean they all fully understood what they were getting into, necessarily). Lan consented to bonding with Moiraine, and their affection is genuine.
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Post by AnDromedary on Dec 4, 2021 18:15:19 GMT
After mulling over the episode focused on the bond between Aes Sedai and their warder(s), I can't help seeing it in a less favorable romanticized way... Putting spoiler tags to be on the safe side: The bond between them is quite the female romantic POWER fantasy. Who doesn't dream of a partner who is so singularly devoted and can literally feel what their woman is feeling and forms a bond that puts any regular relationship, even passionate ones, to shame?
The thing is, it's orchestrated. The way I understand it, it's the bonding ritual that generates this deep devotion. The warder cannot help it. And they are the ones who get screwed over big time when they fail their duty and are left behind. I don't know how common suicide is but they literally only live to serve their woman. It's their entire purpose.
It's almost a kind of emotional slavery, really. It's highly manipulative and ultimately incredibly cruel. Especially if the Aes Sedai is not equally devastated and suicidal if their warder dies.
Obviously in this society women are the ones in power and they exert immense power over their warder puppets too. I don't doubt that many Aes Sedai deeply care for their warders too. I guess it's a natural development when two people spend their entire lives together, day and night.
Yet it's a relationship that is not equal. It's kind of like an arranged marriage of sorts? But where the male has no say it in. Or can they refuse?
I'm wondering, when they have a sexual relationship is that something the Aes Sedai demands and the warder has to comply like the tool that he is? Or do they have a choice there?
I'm wondering because of the conversation Lan has with Stepin about what sounded to me like the sexual appetite of his new "mistress"? Or did I get that wrong?
That would only make it worse...
How is the bond treated in the books? Is it seen as something amazing and 100% beautiful and great or is it depicted as a highly ambivalent thing for the reasons I just stated?
Maybe I'm reading too much into it. But what happened to Stepin is cruel. Some people might say death is always cruel to the survivor. And it's true. But most people do not commit suicide. How often does that happen to warders?
I love Moiraine for inquiring about resolving the bond with Lan to protect him from the same sad fate. THAT is truly beautiful. He's not just a lapdog to her. He's a human being. Does that happen in the books as well? It would suggest that the sorceresses know that what is being done to the warders with the bonding is not entirely OK. Or maybe not OK at all...
You know what, it's maybe a good thing Moiraine and Lan love one another platonically because at this point it might make me uncomfortable if they're sexual toy boys on top of it. Even if they think they want it too.
So what I'd LOVE to see is Moiraine actually dissolve the bond with Lan and have them actually naturally care for one another. Kind of reminiscent of the Witcher where Yen can't tell if Geralt only loves her because he made that wish and it's not real.
Just my thoughts on the matter as a newcomer. Adding onto what dragontartare already wrote and from what I remember from the books, the sexual component or also marrying warders (and having multiple warders) is mostly constricted to the green Ajah. IIRC, the others usually bond one warder max and the practice of wedding them is barely ever the case outside the greens.
Also, IIRC, a warder dying is pretty much equally unpleasant for the Aes Sedai he was bonded to as the other way around, so it's not entirely a one sided thing..
I really hope we'll see some flashbacks to the New Spring prologue book at some point in the show because the story of how Moiraine and Lan come together is in equal parts interesting and also quite funny at times. I don't think it's a spoiler at this point to mention that they bonded because they shared the devotion to accomplish a task and this was the most efficient way for them to work together (but it was also 20 years ago and IIRC neither Lan nor Moiraine knew that well what exactly they were getting into).
That said, you are very correct that the power balance in these relationships is clearly slanted towards the women. And it is a female power fantasy even in-universe for young novices and Accepted (a.k.a. Aes Sedai apprentices) that is described rather often in the books, as the girls talk about who they might bond as if they just have to pick and choose and if they should choose the green Ajah primarily so they could bond multiple men they like.
Also, we'll see what they do in the show but at least in the books, Moiraine will do something to Lan with the bond which - while she has the best of intentions - at least in the way she presents it to him is very cruel.
So yeah, it's a tricky one. You know how it goes: With great power ... yaddayaddayadda.
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 4, 2021 18:34:27 GMT
After mulling over the episode focused on the bond between Aes Sedai and their warder(s), I can't help seeing it in a less favorable romanticized way... Putting spoiler tags to be on the safe side: The bond between them is quite the female romantic POWER fantasy. Who doesn't dream of a partner who is so singularly devoted and can literally feel what their woman is feeling and forms a bond that puts any regular relationship, even passionate ones, to shame?
The thing is, it's orchestrated. The way I understand it, it's the bonding ritual that generates this deep devotion. The warder cannot help it. And they are the ones who get screwed over big time when they fail their duty and are left behind. I don't know how common suicide is but they literally only live to serve their woman. It's their entire purpose.
It's almost a kind of emotional slavery, really. It's highly manipulative and ultimately incredibly cruel. Especially if the Aes Sedai is not equally devastated and suicidal if their warder dies.
Obviously in this society women are the ones in power and they exert immense power over their warder puppets too. I don't doubt that many Aes Sedai deeply care for their warders too. I guess it's a natural development when two people spend their entire lives together, day and night.
Yet it's a relationship that is not equal. It's kind of like an arranged marriage of sorts? But where the male has no say it in. Or can they refuse?
I'm wondering, when they have a sexual relationship is that something the Aes Sedai demands and the warder has to comply like the tool that he is? Or do they have a choice there?
I'm wondering because of the conversation Lan has with Stepin about what sounded to me like the sexual appetite of his new "mistress"? Or did I get that wrong?
That would only make it worse...
How is the bond treated in the books? Is it seen as something amazing and 100% beautiful and great or is it depicted as a highly ambivalent thing for the reasons I just stated?
Maybe I'm reading too much into it. But what happened to Stepin is cruel. Some people might say death is always cruel to the survivor. And it's true. But most people do not commit suicide. How often does that happen to warders?
I love Moiraine for inquiring about resolving the bond with Lan to protect him from the same sad fate. THAT is truly beautiful. He's not just a lapdog to her. He's a human being. Does that happen in the books as well? It would suggest that the sorceresses know that what is being done to the warders with the bonding is not entirely OK. Or maybe not OK at all...
You know what, it's maybe a good thing Moiraine and Lan love one another platonically because at this point it might make me uncomfortable if they're sexual toy boys on top of it. Even if they think they want it too.
So what I'd LOVE to see is Moiraine actually dissolve the bond with Lan and have them actually naturally care for one another. Kind of reminiscent of the Witcher where Yen can't tell if Geralt only loves her because he made that wish and it's not real.
Just my thoughts on the matter as a newcomer. Do NOT, under any circumstances, read the wiki entry for bonding unless you have read the books. There are major spoilers throughout the entry. Some non-spoilery parts are given below to answer your questions. From the wiki: It isn't so much that Warders are forced to share their Aes Sedai's emotions as if they were their own, just that they know what their Aes Sedai is feeling (and vice versa). From the wiki (a bit spoilery to those who are not caught up on the show): The ability of Warders to protect their respective Aes Sedai through these heightened abilities is paramount for them, for if she dies, he will most likely go insane with a sense of fatalistic vengeance. Most Warders do not survive their Aes Sedai by long if she dies, falling immediately after trying to avenge her, or going bleakly to their death in the Great Blight. I thought we would see... Stepin trying to avenge his Aes Sedai and dying in the attempt, rather than outright killing himself, to be honest. But this compulsion of the Warder to die avenging his Aes Sedai is also why we see Moiraine wanting to find a way to release the bond in order to spare Lan in case she dies. Aes Sedai can't force their Warder to feel affection, so what you see in the show is genuine and formed from spending decades with the other person. However, they can manipulate the Warder's actions in rare instances. From the wiki... I don't know if that gives the Aes Sedai enough control to compel the Warder into a sexual relationship. The scene with Lan and Stepin talking about... the sexual relationship between Alanna and her Warders -- including Stepin, if he bonded with her -- refers to the Warder's ability to feel emotions through the bond, not to Stepin being forced to participate physically. Alanna would have had the ability to mute Stepin's hypothetical bond during "activities" with her other Warders, so that Stepin wouldn't have to feel them if he didn't want to. "Puppet" is too strong of a word. There is a case of a Warder later in the series actually wanting to find and kill his Aes Sedai, but I don't recall her ever compelling him not to do it. Instead, she mutes the bond to hide from him. So it's not 100% beautiful, but it's not typically as dark as you're thinking it is, either. If the Aes Sedai is a moral person, the bonding was consensual, and the Aes Sedai and Warder(s) respect each other, I don't see it as a cruel relationship (and I feel the same with genders reversed). I do think it should become standard to release the bonds upon death whenever possible, however. Grieving would still happen, but the rest of the consequences could be avoided. I don't know if any of that helps or not
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 4, 2021 20:52:41 GMT
Excellent analysis.
The bond definitely comes with benefits and drawbacks for both parties (although the Aes Sedai can mitigate many of them, both positive and negative), but the main takeaway should be it is - in all bar the most rare and/or desperate circumstances - a solemn and revered connection between two people focused on a goal or ideal.
With, as dragontartare alluded to, heavy emphasis on the consensual part.
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 4, 2021 21:02:43 GMT
After mulling over the episode focused on the bond between Aes Sedai and their warder(s), I can't help seeing it in a less favorable romanticized way... Putting spoiler tags to be on the safe side: The bond between them is quite the female romantic POWER fantasy. Who doesn't dream of a partner who is so singularly devoted and can literally feel what their woman is feeling and forms a bond that puts any regular relationship, even passionate ones, to shame?
The thing is, it's orchestrated. The way I understand it, it's the bonding ritual that generates this deep devotion. The warder cannot help it. And they are the ones who get screwed over big time when they fail their duty and are left behind. I don't know how common suicide is but they literally only live to serve their woman. It's their entire purpose.
It's almost a kind of emotional slavery, really. It's highly manipulative and ultimately incredibly cruel. Especially if the Aes Sedai is not equally devastated and suicidal if their warder dies.
Obviously in this society women are the ones in power and they exert immense power over their warder puppets too. I don't doubt that many Aes Sedai deeply care for their warders too. I guess it's a natural development when two people spend their entire lives together, day and night.
Yet it's a relationship that is not equal. It's kind of like an arranged marriage of sorts? But where the male has no say it in. Or can they refuse?
I'm wondering, when they have a sexual relationship is that something the Aes Sedai demands and the warder has to comply like the tool that he is? Or do they have a choice there?
I'm wondering because of the conversation Lan has with Stepin about what sounded to me like the sexual appetite of his new "mistress"? Or did I get that wrong?
That would only make it worse...
How is the bond treated in the books? Is it seen as something amazing and 100% beautiful and great or is it depicted as a highly ambivalent thing for the reasons I just stated?
Maybe I'm reading too much into it. But what happened to Stepin is cruel. Some people might say death is always cruel to the survivor. And it's true. But most people do not commit suicide. How often does that happen to warders?
I love Moiraine for inquiring about resolving the bond with Lan to protect him from the same sad fate. THAT is truly beautiful. He's not just a lapdog to her. He's a human being. Does that happen in the books as well? It would suggest that the sorceresses know that what is being done to the warders with the bonding is not entirely OK. Or maybe not OK at all...
You know what, it's maybe a good thing Moiraine and Lan love one another platonically because at this point it might make me uncomfortable if they're sexual toy boys on top of it. Even if they think they want it too.
So what I'd LOVE to see is Moiraine actually dissolve the bond with Lan and have them actually naturally care for one another. Kind of reminiscent of the Witcher where Yen can't tell if Geralt only loves her because he made that wish and it's not real.
Just my thoughts on the matter as a newcomer. Even though the Aes Sedai/Warder relationship is the better part of it's script some details have either been cut or weren't properly adapted, while there's info that has yet to be adapted from the books like the existence of female warders. About the power dynamic between sexes, i think the showrunners missed the mark in regards to Jordan's underlying theme of balance and harmony. and how the societies of WoT were socially impacted by the Breaking of the World like Edmond's Field, and Andor. Non-channeler male Warders normally aren't compelled to slavish loyalty by the psychic link created by Bonding, but wholeheartedly believe in the Aes Sedai's mission due to them being revered by the continent's societies as the last defenders against the Dark One after male channelers went insane, and or were inspired to become a warder from witnessing them fight the Dark One's servants personally. Even though it isn't common the link created by Bonding can be abused by the unscrupulous or the bad guys to compel a Warder into servitude. There's other details like not all Aes Sedai partner with Warders like the White or Brown Ajah, have a weird sex orgy thing going on with their Warders like the Greens or view them as tools/bodyguards or with contempt like the Reds. Nevermind the other channeler groups and cultural views on bonding, the Aes Sedai's not a philosophically monolithic group so you'll see different kinds of relationships, and viewpoints surrounding Bonding and Warders. Also the show hasn't reached the point where all of the Aes Sedai's bonding mechanics are spoken of in detail because the show's narrative featuring Stepin/Kerene (assassinated by darkfriends 20 years ago in the books) was added exclusively by Amazon's writers who massively changed story sequences from the books. This is for book readers... I remember Min's character was introduced before Shadar Logoth, but Rand originally was supposed to meet Elayne, Galad and Gawyn before reuniting with the group in Caemlyn?
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 4, 2021 21:17:22 GMT
Excellent analysis. The bond definitely comes with benefits and drawbacks for both parties (although the Aes Sedai can mitigate many of them, both positive and negative), but the main takeaway should be it is - in all bar the most rare and/or desperate circumstances - a solemn and revered connection between two people focused on a goal or ideal. With, as dragontartare alluded to, heavy emphasis on the consensual part. repeat that for Alanna.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Dec 4, 2021 22:05:37 GMT
Thank you all for your detailed explanations! Very interesting read! It's definitely the most intriguing part of the TV series to me so far. And one thing that Dragon Age hasn't copied directly. *g* Of course the Grey Wardens are kinda like the same thing as a non bonding version. Although... wait, the wardens drink the blood and hear voices too. Nevermind! I'm much looking forward to seeing different kinds of relationships that come out of the bonding, both good and abusive. I have no idea how they want to cover so much ground in a satisfiyng was for the readers. I just hope it's good in its own way and that the show doesn't get cancelled halfway through. Because I really don't want to read 15 long novels... I'm a slooow reader. Would take me years, lol.
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 5, 2021 0:19:33 GMT
Excellent analysis. The bond definitely comes with benefits and drawbacks for both parties (although the Aes Sedai can mitigate many of them, both positive and negative), but the main takeaway should be it is - in all bar the most rare and/or desperate circumstances - a solemn and revered connection between two people focused on a goal or ideal. With, as dragontartare alluded to, heavy emphasis on the consensual part. repeat that for Alanna. Kappa Neko, don't open these two spoilers No kidding. I couldn't stand her after that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2021 23:12:31 GMT
Didn't realize it's already been greenlighted for S2. That's good.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 7, 2021 1:18:06 GMT
Didn't realize it's already been greenlighted for S2. That's good. Definitely - allows the writers/showrunners to properly plan some stuff. I think - and I could be getting stories mixed up here but - this, along with Lord of the Rings was renewed by Amazon early on - well before they even finished making season 1.
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