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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 18:46:30 GMT
WOW is anomaly though, rather than a rule. I was under the impression that most cooperative games start to die off rather fast nowadays & peeps overall are far more inclined to move like locust than stay put and play the same thing. But hey, maybe not. A year or two still seems enough to gain a fair bit of "meh, I want something else." My experience with MMOs is that people tend to get invested in their characters and the guilds they're in which results in them not wanting to leave, unless the game does rather poorly. It's not so much that WoW is the anomaly as much as it is the entire MMO genre is. Although for Destiny 2 to actually hit those levels it would have to do for the "MMO lite loot shooter" what World of Warcraft did for hotkey MMOs back in 2004, which it's unlikely that it will(or that Anthem will, as well). Played two MMOs, saw people moving on, and never really finding the guilds & guilds being small and falling apart. I did not play WOW and Guild Wars, maybe those are the ones that retain people.
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Post by Cyonan on Aug 23, 2017 18:51:13 GMT
I still think it's too early to assume Anthem is even remotely like Destiny, or Destiny 2. That game is just a simplified MMOFPS that is barely even an MMO. It's really just a copy/paste of the Halo IP with some persistent environments, a social hub, competitive multiplayer, and a few lite raids. At the very least, we know that our character in Anthem will be voiced, and given the one quest that we do see (whether it's a side quest or main story), there will likely be a focus on story (unlike Destiny, which has virtually no story). We also know that there will be crafting in Anthem, which gives more credence to the fact it actually is an action RPG. I could be mistaken, but I don't believe Destiny 1 (and probably Destiny 2) has any sort of crafting (haven't played it since beta). I'm also still not convinced you'll see other random players in the open world, which is the case with Destiny 1, Destiny 2, and most MMOs. In order to really pull off a quality single player experience, it would make sense to have private worlds that you can invite your friends into if you want to play together. That would make the experience fundamentally different from how Destiny functions. I don't believe these games will be direct competitors. However, if Destiny 2 is really just a modest upgrade of Destiny 1, I could see Anthem perhaps enticing some of those players to jump ship. Even if Destiny 2 were a flop, it's still has its install base on consoles, much like WoW still has its install base even if it hasn't been the arguably best MMO for years. Truth be told, I think Anthem is going to appeal to BioWare fans more than they realize it. A lot are swearing the game off already because they believe it's "forced multiplayer with microtransactions," but we simply don't truly know anything about the game. I think quite a few folks are going to be pleasantly surprised by what Anthem actually is. To be honest, these aren't very big differences in the grand scheme of things. At the core they're both open world loot shooters with what is clearly a focus on multiplayer even if BioWare is saying that it will be solo player friendly(and it very well might be, but everything we've seen thus far suggests the primary focus is on small group content with 2-4 people regardless of that). It doesn't have to be an outright Destiny clone in order to be a competitor.
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Post by Cyonan on Aug 23, 2017 18:57:11 GMT
My experience with MMOs is that people tend to get invested in their characters and the guilds they're in which results in them not wanting to leave, unless the game does rather poorly. It's not so much that WoW is the anomaly as much as it is the entire MMO genre is. Although for Destiny 2 to actually hit those levels it would have to do for the "MMO lite loot shooter" what World of Warcraft did for hotkey MMOs back in 2004, which it's unlikely that it will(or that Anthem will, as well). Played two MMOs, saw people moving on, and never really finding the guilds & guilds being small and falling apart. I did not play WOW and Guild Wars, maybe those are the ones that retain people. FF14 also has people sticking to it from what I saw when I played it. The reason why there was higher turnover in games like The Old Republic is because ToR was received rather poorly by the MMO fanbase. There was little in the way of end game content, and the only raid they had at launch was buggy as hell on top of being rather easy. Of course any game will have people moving on, but there is a much larger window of opportunity for losing your playerbase in a MMO in the months just after release before they've gotten invested in all the progress they've made on their character. Once people get invested, they're much less likely to leave for another game of a similar style.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 19:29:35 GMT
Played two MMOs, saw people moving on, and never really finding the guilds & guilds being small and falling apart. I did not play WOW and Guild Wars, maybe those are the ones that retain people. FF14 also has people sticking to it from what I saw when I played it. The reason why there was higher turnover in games like The Old Republic is because ToR was received rather poorly by the MMO fanbase. There was little in the way of end game content, and the only raid they had at launch was buggy as hell on top of being rather easy. Of course any game will have people moving on, but there is a much larger window of opportunity for losing your playerbase in a MMO in the months just after release before they've gotten invested in all the progress they've made on their character. Once people get invested, they're much less likely to leave for another game of a similar style. Well, I have an unerring talent for liking the stuff other people do not, and eschew the ones they praise. My love is a kiss of death. I am some sort of a gaming succubus. Fear me!
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 23, 2017 20:37:27 GMT
To be honest, these aren't very big differences in the grand scheme of things. At the core they're both open world loot shooters with what is clearly a focus on multiplayer even if BioWare is saying that it will be solo player friendly(and it very well might be, but everything we've seen thus far suggests the primary focus is on small group content with 2-4 people regardless of that). It doesn't have to be an outright Destiny clone in order to be a competitor. I disagree, because Anthem would be more of a single player game with a fully integrated cooperative experience. That's very different from being an MMO, or an MMO lite. MMOs are built and driven around largely mandatory group content and community-building. It's why guilds are the very cornerstone and foundation for every MMO. The kind of experience I think Anthem may be, however, would not require guilds or such a community-driven focus. That will largely be optional for those that would want it. These are two entirely separate demographics. That's not to say that some players who like MMOs wouldn't be interested in Anthem, and vice versa. I just believe it's dangerous to try and suggests these games are very similar because of superficial comparisons gamers are drawing between the two. Perhaps Anthem truly is a Destiny clone, and perhaps it's nothing like Destiny. We'll likely know at some point before the fall of next year.
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Post by Cyonan on Aug 23, 2017 22:12:47 GMT
I disagree, because Anthem would be more of a single player game with a fully integrated cooperative experience. That's very different from being an MMO, or an MMO lite. MMOs are built and driven around largely mandatory group content and community-building. It's why guilds are the very cornerstone and foundation for every MMO. The kind of experience I think Anthem may be, however, would not require guilds or such a community-driven focus. That will largely be optional for those that would want it. These are two entirely separate demographics. That's not to say that some players who like MMOs wouldn't be interested in Anthem, and vice versa. I just believe it's dangerous to try and suggests these games are very similar because of superficial comparisons gamers are drawing between the two. Perhaps Anthem truly is a Destiny clone, and perhaps it's nothing like Destiny. We'll likely know at some point before the fall of next year. Actually MMOs have usually been more so about small group content with people pretending like raids are the be all end all of MMO games(usually because they drop better loot that less than 10% of the playerbase will get while it's still relevant content). The reality of games like WoW is that prior to the Raid Finder(which has auto-matchmaking and is so easy you can not pay attention and still clear everything) the percentage of the playerbase that actually participated in raids was surprisingly low. Long gone are the days of Everquest where grouping was mandatory in these games. Everything we have seen with Anthem thus far suggests that the game is built around 2-4 player group content(even if they've said it will be solo friendly). That may or may not change in the future as we get more info, but it being that doesn't make it drastically different from Destiny even if they do have raids. Plus, Bungie has also said that Destiny 2 is going to be a lot more solo friendly as well.
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Post by Qolx on Aug 24, 2017 2:33:57 GMT
BW's marketing will have a tough job shedding Anthem's "Destiny clone" image. That's a common perception in the Anthem community. I think their silence is hurting them a bit because it lets speculation and comparisons to Destiny become the topic of discussion. Not sure how it's hurting? The similarity to Destiny appears to be helping hype the game, as far as I can tell. Reddit's Anthem sub is filled with Destiny fans enthusing over Anthem. The point made earlier may be a problem, though. If Destiny 2 and Anthem overlap by too much, Destiny 2 will lock up all of that market. Ideally, Anthem will drop right when Destiny fans have sated themselves on D2 and are ready for something new. It's "helping" them in comparison to Destiny 1. This is a similar situation to the MMO "Wars" 10 years ago. Conan, Warhammer et al also received buzz and hype off comparisons to WoW. Most of these so called "WoW-killers" got killed by WoW anyways. Destiny fans want the same thing those MMO players wanted: the game the play plus, not the new game. The expectation is Anthem will be a "better" Destiny. That's not good for marketing. Destiny 2 will lock up the market but that's not necessarily a bad thing for Anthem if the latter is significantly different than the former. Anthem will be crushed if it overlaps with Destiny; the playerbase won't reinvest itself in a new game that's more of the same they already play.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Aug 24, 2017 3:11:13 GMT
I think if it works in BioWare's favour or not largely depends on the reception Destiny 2 gets. If it's like Destiny 1, then it could work to their advantage. However I certainly wouldn't have wanted to launch a MMO in 2005/2006 after World of Warcraft came out in late 2004. It would have been utterly crushed. The thing about MMOs and these "MMO lite" games is that when one is really good, people tend to get attached to it and so long as it's getting regular support they end up feeling like "I'm already playing this one, invested in my character, and made friends here. Why bother switching?". We'll have to see, but so far most Destiny fans and channels I've seen seem a bit unimpressed with Destiny 2. More to the point, they frequently call it Destiny 1.5 because it seems like more of the same rather than innovating or addressing the biggest criticisms of the first game. I'm seeing the same. Not MEA unimpressive, but not enough there there to justify the accumulated loot reset. Of course this is all pre-release whinging, so who knows what the actually release will be like?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Aug 24, 2017 3:16:50 GMT
I still think it's too early to assume Anthem is even remotely like Destiny, or Destiny 2. That game is just a simplified MMOFPS that is barely even an MMO. It's really just a copy/paste of the Halo IP with some persistent environments, a social hub, competitive multiplayer, and a few lite raids. They aren't identical and differ in the points you mentioned, but not "even remotely like" is at best an exaggeration. It's commonly acknowledged that what was shown in the trailer looks Destiny-like -- more so than Soulslike or Roguelike. Why else would all the Destiny fans be so enthused? The fundamental gameplay mechanic of Destiny is shoot monsters, drop loot, roll RNG for ultra rares. Those same mechanics were shown in the Anthem trailer. That puts them in the same ballpark. That's without even considering the similarities in setting structure: SF ish, a Hub, a Wall holding back hordes of nasties, the struggles of the few against the many. Destiny has all that and all that was shown in the Anthem trailer.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Aug 24, 2017 3:31:31 GMT
I think this game is in trouble, just like ME:A was. They're not even confident enough to show anything at gamescom. This can't be ruled out, given the latest track record from Bioware.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 24, 2017 5:55:03 GMT
Actually MMOs have usually been more so about small group content with people pretending like raids are the be all end all of MMO games(usually because they drop better loot that less than 10% of the playerbase will get while it's still relevant content). The reality of games like WoW is that prior to the Raid Finder(which has auto-matchmaking and is so easy you can not pay attention and still clear everything) the percentage of the playerbase that actually participated in raids was surprisingly low. Long gone are the days of Everquest where grouping was mandatory in these games. Everything we have seen with Anthem thus far suggests that the game is built around 2-4 player group content(even if they've said it will be solo friendly). That may or may not change in the future as we get more info, but it being that doesn't make it drastically different from Destiny even if they do have raids. Plus, Bungie has also said that Destiny 2 is going to be a lot more solo friendly as well. Don't think I ever said MMOs were all about raiding. I started with Star Wars Galaxies, which preceded theme park MMOs (like Everquest II and World of Warcraft) and the concept of "raiding." My point was MMOs have always been community-driven experiences, whether they are sandbox or theme park experiences. Regardless of the content you are doing, the game is largely built around working with other players to accomplish goals. Current MMOs are far more accessible than they used to be, in large part because WoW made the entire genre a lot more casual and easy. That being said, "endgame content" is still very much a group-oriented endeavor, whether it's a small group or a large one. Only the leveling experience in most MMOs is typically geared towards solo players. I was just stating having a cooperative experience does not make something an MMO, from my perspective. Far Cry 5 is going to have a fully integrated cooperative experience, yet it's not an MMO and no one would ever claim it as such. One thing I will point out is that the main player, in the demo, invited the second player to join the party. I was never given the impression that the second player's presence was required, just like when the third and fourth players were invited. Again, to be an MMO, even like Destiny, there has to be this focus on community building. That's not to say there won't be elements of that in the social hub for Anthem. I'm just not convinced that Anthem is that kind of game at this point. As I see it thus far, it's a BioWare game where you have the option to play with friends. We don't even know if the game is even going to have any sort of PvP, let alone raids or dungeons. There's been no indication of any of that kind of content. They aren't identical and differ in the points you mentioned, but not "even remotely like" is at best an exaggeration. It's commonly acknowledged that what was shown in the trailer looks Destiny-like -- more so than Soulslike or Roguelike. Why else would all the Destiny fans be so enthused? The fundamental gameplay mechanic of Destiny is shoot monsters, drop loot, roll RNG for ultra rares. Those same mechanics were shown in the Anthem trailer. That puts them in the same ballpark. That's without even considering the similarities in setting structure: SF ish, a Hub, a Wall holding back hordes of nasties, the struggles of the few against the many. Destiny has all that and all that was shown in the Anthem trailer. "Commonly acknowledged" being nothing more than assumptions and speculation based on simplistic comparisons. The term "MMO" has been diluted and generalized so far that I'm not even sure most know what the fundamentals of an MMO are anymore. So far from what I've seen, the game seems more like Mass Effect Andromeda than Destiny. It's merely Mass Effect Andromeda with a fully integrated cooperative experience. That's very different from something that is "Destiny-like." That "fundamental gameplay mechanic" is also very much true in Mass Effect Andromeda. Having loot and RNG hardly makes it "Destiny-like," as many video games in various genres have "loot" and "RNG." Are you starting to understand why I'm stating comparing this to Destiny is silly? The only reason people claim this is "Destiny-like" is because it's an online coop shooter and there is loot. Do you know how many games I could claim are "Destiny-like" with such broad descriptors? Destiny is hardly the first sci-fi franchise to be set in a post-apocalyptic futuristic setting. As I said earlier, Destiny is just a poor man's Halo, because Bungie is really bad at creating original IPs. We don't know anything about Anthem, other than there are these Freelances that fly "Iron Man" exosuits. People are trying way to hard to say a 10 minute demo is "Destiny-like." I might agree with you when we actually know what kind of features this game will offer. That will decide if it really is "Destiny-like" or not.
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 24, 2017 6:32:38 GMT
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Hm... "... fully integrated co-op play.."
Could very well be. Good catch if so. Also, it gives us a twist I was looking for. However, the "invite" could just be the animation team + marketing's blessing.
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Post by haolyn on Aug 24, 2017 7:02:54 GMT
yeah from what i've seen in the trailer anthem looks much more like a co-op game than an MMO
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Post by Cyonan on Aug 24, 2017 9:42:57 GMT
Don't think I ever said MMOs were all about raiding. I started with Star Wars Galaxies, which preceded theme park MMOs (like Everquest II and World of Warcraft) and the concept of "raiding." My point was MMOs have always been community-driven experiences, whether they are sandbox or theme park experiences. Regardless of the content you are doing, the game is largely built around working with other players to accomplish goals. Current MMOs are far more accessible than they used to be, in large part because WoW made the entire genre a lot more casual and easy. That being said, "endgame content" is still very much a group-oriented endeavor, whether it's a small group or a large one. Only the leveling experience in most MMOs is typically geared towards solo players. I was just stating having a cooperative experience does not make something an MMO, from my perspective. Far Cry 5 is going to have a fully integrated cooperative experience, yet it's not an MMO and no one would ever claim it as such. One thing I will point out is that the main player, in the demo, invited the second player to join the party. I was never given the impression that the second player's presence was required, just like when the third and fourth players were invited. Again, to be an MMO, even like Destiny, there has to be this focus on community building. That's not to say there won't be elements of that in the social hub for Anthem. I'm just not convinced that Anthem is that kind of game at this point. As I see it thus far, it's a BioWare game where you have the option to play with friends. We don't even know if the game is even going to have any sort of PvP, let alone raids or dungeons. There's been no indication of any of that kind of content. You'd be surprised how far you can get in WoW without grouping these days, and from what I hear SWtoR carved itself out a nice niche focusing on solo player content. This focus on community building you say MMOs are about really hasn't been a thing for some time now. Even when it comes to group content, most MMOs I've played recently have switched to a group finder system that works cross-server which is a feature that pretty much kills any ideas of community building. Although to be honest it doesn't really matter what we're calling it, as your argument that there will be little overlap is highly reliant on the overwhelming majority of the playerbase of Anthem being people only interested in solo play. Naturally anybody looking for small group content will be interested in both games, as that is something we know both Destiny 2 and Anthem will have. Beyond that their core gameplay mechanics from what we know appear to be rather similar, which makes that an overlap market regardless of which genre we're calling the respective games. It's also not much to say that it didn't appear like the second player was needed in the trailer(and no combat was even shown with the 3rd and 4th players). It's pretty obvious that trailer was trying to show off new and shiny things, which means that the difficulty was so easy that it was impossible for them to fail.
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Post by Amirit on Aug 24, 2017 11:50:22 GMT
WOW is anomaly though, rather than a rule. I was under the impression that most cooperative games start to die off rather fast nowadays & peeps overall are far more inclined to move like locust than stay put and play the same thing. But hey, maybe not. A year or two still seems enough to gain a fair bit of "meh, I want something else." My experience with MMOs is that people tend to get invested in their characters and the guilds they're in which results in them not wanting to leave, unless the game does rather poorly. It's not so much that WoW is the anomaly as much as it is the entire MMO genre is. Although for Destiny 2 to actually hit those levels it would have to do for the "MMO lite loot shooter" what World of Warcraft did for hotkey MMOs back in 2004, which it's unlikely that it will(or that Anthem will, as well). Captain Obvious at your service! As cliche and old news as it sounds, after years of exclusive MMO playing, I'd say there are 2 type of MMO players: old-school (usually began to play in times of UO and EQ) - they still play it old style, making every game they came in their "virtual home", forming (and keeping) guilds and playing for years. This is the minority - as they always were, since the time they began to play MMO that genre was considered a niche. Second type of online gamers - surfers, switching to new title the moment it appears. Some of them are formal "old schoolers" in never ending search for lost virginity for recreating their "first time experience", but most just a bored crowd after new shines. This is absolute majority. They play for several months at best, do not care about community (they are not here to stay) and prefer as fast and big rewards from the start as possible. For that minority you need a lot of things - lore, story, quality gameplay and so on and so fort. For majority - one thing only: possibility to get the biggest reward fast (and ability to show everyone that reward - ledders are welcome!). I'd say the choice for developers is clear.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Aug 24, 2017 12:46:42 GMT
I'll just say being how Anthem will let you go up to a 4 man team at the max that it's not an mmo, anyone saying otherwise needs to look into and study genres. It's pretty bad seeing games like overwatch and such get called an mmo just because it's "multiplayer", or had a "co-op focus", that's not how mmos work. Battlefield has 32vs32 modes but it's still not an mmo. I need to see a large open world out on dedicated servers that can support 20+ people in said world along with actual mmo mechanics and elements to be considered an mmo. Even destiny isn't an mmo (I've argued this point vs those people on their forums for three years so far) cause it lacks dedicated servers and really besides the half assed hub, it has no support for any massive online function for the players, it's nothing more than a simple loot shooter although with D2 they're making a case at doing halo better than halo can right now. It's not even 25% mmo to me.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 24, 2017 14:58:42 GMT
You'd be surprised how far you can get in WoW without grouping these days, and from what I hear SWtoR carved itself out a nice niche focusing on solo player content. This focus on community building you say MMOs are about really hasn't been a thing for some time now. Even when it comes to group content, most MMOs I've played recently have switched to a group finder system that works cross-server which is a feature that pretty much kills any ideas of community building. Although to be honest it doesn't really matter what we're calling it, as your argument that there will be little overlap is highly reliant on the overwhelming majority of the playerbase of Anthem being people only interested in solo play. Naturally anybody looking for small group content will be interested in both games, as that is something we know both Destiny 2 and Anthem will have. Beyond that their core gameplay mechanics from what we know appear to be rather similar, which makes that an overlap market regardless of which genre we're calling the respective games. It's also not much to say that it didn't appear like the second player was needed in the trailer(and no combat was even shown with the 3rd and 4th players). It's pretty obvious that trailer was trying to show off new and shiny things, which means that the difficulty was so easy that it was impossible for them to fail. The MMO genre has, without a doubt, tried to pivot towards solo players. WoW's player base has been in a slow decline since its peak in 2007? It's still the most popular P2P MMO, but it's not the giant that it used to be, in large part because the MMO genre has been absolutely over-saturated with games. As a result, developers try to expand their games to accommodate different kinds of players, so making the game more "solo friendly" is an initiative of some MMOs. I think it's fair to point out that your two examples (WoW and SWTOR) are theme park MMOs with largely the same structure. Compare those MMOs to a sandbox MMO, like Black Desert Online or ArcheAge, and you will find that grouping is still absolutely essential and mandatory to really accomplish anything of merit in the game. Even in SWTOR, you still cannot complete operations or warzones by yourself. Those will forever be group-oriented activities, because that's their entire purpose. The same is the case with ESO, where AvA, arenas, Trials, and dungeons all still require groups of players. I do agree that group finder kills communities, and that MMOs has become more disjointed as a result. Even then, you'll never complete progression raiding or likely ranked PvP successfully with a pick up group. Guilds, or at least dedicated teams, are still very much essential. That really depends on what Anthem ultimately ends up being. If it is just a BioWare RPG with an fully integrated coop system, then I think the game may attract largely the same BioWare fan base and not other players. That's not to say others who might like Destiny wouldn't be interested in Anthem, but my point is they aren't necessarily the same or even really similar. Having some broad game mechanics in common that can be found in many games really is evidence of nothing. That's something we definitely can agree on. At the very least, both games will accommodate small groups. Of course, a better example perhaps would be Ghost Recon: Wildlands, which is a large open world game that accommodates 4-player coop. Anthem may end up having more in common with that game than Destiny 2. Obviously, with demos (live or pre-recorded), there's never going to be a situation in which we see the player fail. That being said, with how the scenario was scripted, it just appeared that the main player was inviting her friend to tag along. I wasn't personally under the impression he had to join, but we'll see soon enough.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Aug 24, 2017 15:43:48 GMT
"Commonly acknowledged" being nothing more than assumptions and speculation based on simplistic comparisons. So? No one is denying we only have one trailer to go on, so we're all making our best guesses. I've no doubt that Anthem will go beyond what Destiny is -- if they're smart, since they need to be competitive -- but I see no point in denying the similarities. You'll notice I never used the term MMO. I understand you have equated Destiny with MMO-lite, but that seems a bit of a strawman argument to me. And unnecessarily complicated. Simplistic is good at this point, lest one construct a house of cards on what few facts we have. I hope you are right! I'm skeptical, but that would be great too, just as a Better Destiny than Destiny would be great. I specifically said ultra-rares, which drive the Skinner Box of grinding in Destiny. There is no such Skinner Box experience in MEA or any other game that isn't loot-shoot. Also, in Destiny you have to hike back to the Hub to have a "purple" container rolled on the RNG to become (hopefully) ultra-rare gear. Anthem showed the container rolling of the RNG happening immediately, which to me is a clear in-your-eye to Destiny, because the need to travel back to the Hub to roll the RNG is a pain in the ass for Destiny players. Destiny players immediately recognize that Anthem offers an improvement over that experience. When something is so clearly emphasized in the trailer and, in comparison to Destiny, is a clear advantage, how can one not conclude that comparisons to Destiny were intentional on the part of Bioware? Look, you can't have it both ways. You can't on the one hand declare there is not enough information to say something is like something else, and then turn around and insist that it is not like something else. I get that you are hoping Anthem will turn out to be what you want it to be, and that some aspects of the trailer were more salient to you than they were to me, that's fine. As there is no harm in people getting excited that Anthem might be Destiny-like, let us have our hopes too without disparaging them and we'll do likewise. You don't have to argue that Anthem isn't Destiny-like for your own hopes to be appreciated.
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 24, 2017 15:51:18 GMT
Snip For that minority you need a lot of things - lore, story, quality gameplay and so on and so fort. For majority - one thing only: possibility to get the biggest reward fast (and ability to show everyone that reward - ledders are welcome!). I'd say the choice for developers is clear.-(_ANTHEM_)-
Bio has no choice as a dev but to make money for its Lord and Master. This game may be designed to appeal to both groups
Finicky gamers that come and go is not what Bio wants or needs. What EA desires is for gamers to use micro$transactions to fill their coffers... a steady revenue stream that easily satifues EA's revenue projections. That means the Bio devs must design a game to keep players engaged and spend their hard earned money. So, whatever works or the studio believe works is what we will get in Anthem.
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 24, 2017 16:32:26 GMT
Yep, already I'm seeing posts elsewhere on the internet along the lines of: "Anthem will get no love from me. I think that everyone's face will be tired of Anthem before it is even released."Irrespective of the game's quality, I'm expecting a rough ride wherever people can comment. Particularly if EA run a soulless promotional marketing campaign. That's not to say there won't be many enthusiasts, but those with opposing views will be there. its a self eating cycle. The folks angry today will be angry tomorrow, it will likely impact general perceptions on Anthem going forward, lead to negative-leaning subjective analysis...and we continue the cycle until Dragon Age 4. God forbid people take the game on it's own merits...but most gamers rarely do that. They have too many axes to grind.
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Post by Cyonan on Aug 24, 2017 16:42:04 GMT
The MMO genre has, without a doubt, tried to pivot towards solo players. WoW's player base has been in a slow decline since its peak in 2007? It's still the most popular P2P MMO, but it's not the giant that it used to be, in large part because the MMO genre has been absolutely over-saturated with games. As a result, developers try to expand their games to accommodate different kinds of players, so making the game more "solo friendly" is an initiative of some MMOs. I think it's fair to point out that your two examples (WoW and SWTOR) are theme park MMOs with largely the same structure. Compare those MMOs to a sandbox MMO, like Black Desert Online or ArcheAge, and you will find that grouping is still absolutely essential and mandatory to really accomplish anything of merit in the game. Even in SWTOR, you still cannot complete operations or warzones by yourself. Those will forever be group-oriented activities, because that's their entire purpose. The same is the case with ESO, where AvA, arenas, Trials, and dungeons all still require groups of players. I do agree that group finder kills communities, and that MMOs has become more disjointed as a result. Even then, you'll never complete progression raiding or likely ranked PvP successfully with a pick up group. Guilds, or at least dedicated teams, are still very much essential. That really depends on what Anthem ultimately ends up being. If it is just a BioWare RPG with an fully integrated coop system, then I think the game may attract largely the same BioWare fan base and not other players. That's not to say others who might like Destiny wouldn't be interested in Anthem, but my point is they aren't necessarily the same or even really similar. Having some broad game mechanics in common that can be found in many games really is evidence of nothing. That's something we definitely can agree on. At the very least, both games will accommodate small groups. Of course, a better example perhaps would be Ghost Recon: Wildlands, which is a large open world game that accommodates 4-player coop. Anthem may end up having more in common with that game than Destiny 2. Obviously, with demos (live or pre-recorded), there's never going to be a situation in which we see the player fail. That being said, with how the scenario was scripted, it just appeared that the main player was inviting her friend to tag along. I wasn't personally under the impression he had to join, but we'll see soon enough. Since 2011 with jumps back up each time an expansion comes out but otherwise yeah, WoW numbers have been in a slow decline. Unfortunately because this looks bad to investors they've long since stopped announcing the subscription numbers, so we don't really know how much of a giant the game is anymore(though we do know if it was back up to the numbers they used to have, they'd be telling investors about the jump in players). My experience with BDO is that grouping wasn't mandatory as much as absurd amounts of grinding was. The main reason to group up would be to reduce the grind(or to not get ganked in the PvP areas) but I never felt it was required. As much as raiding on the highest difficulty requires a dedicated group, the percentage of players actually clearing that is extremely low. Even back when WoW was at its peak, Blizzard mentioned in vanilla that less than 1% of players ever got to see Naxxramas which was the final raid before the expansion reset everything. The last raid in Burning Crusade, Sunwell, saw similar numbers. WotLK was the first time we saw raiding as a thing that your average player could do, and they did that by creating difficulty levels for raids where all but the highest could be easily pugged. This was when the game was at its peak playerwise. If the game is a standard issue BioWare RPG with a co-op it might, but thus far we have no evidence that suggests it's going to be that. Their comments on the game so far is really pushing the "shared world with friends" angle to the point where they had to clarify that it will even be solo player friendly to begin with. On top of that the only gameplay video we have specifically only features group play. The fact that you "felt MP wasn't required" is little more than speculation. For a game you keep arguing might just be a standard BioWare RPG with co-op, they certainly appear to be going all in showing that this is a game you play with friends. Not that it means that's what the game is 100% going to be, but that's certainly the narrative that BioWare is trying to spin about the game right now. There is currently more evidence to suggest that the game will be focused on 2-4 player group content rather than a SP experience that just happens to have co-op.
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Post by Cyonan on Aug 24, 2017 16:49:50 GMT
I'll just say being how Anthem will let you go up to a 4 man team at the max that it's not an mmo, anyone saying otherwise needs to look into and study genres. It's pretty bad seeing games like overwatch and such get called an mmo just because it's "multiplayer", or had a "co-op focus", that's not how mmos work. Battlefield has 32vs32 modes but it's still not an mmo. I need to see a large open world out on dedicated servers that can support 20+ people in said world along with actual mmo mechanics and elements to be considered an mmo. Even destiny isn't an mmo (I've argued this point vs those people on their forums for three years so far) cause it lacks dedicated servers and really besides the half assed hub, it has no support for any massive online function for the players, it's nothing more than a simple loot shooter although with D2 they're making a case at doing halo better than halo can right now. It's not even 25% mmo to me. The definition of MMO has never really been that well defined, kind of like how not many people actually agree on a single definition of RPG although many of us can look at a finished game and go "Yep, that's a MMO/RPG". I've typically worked on the definition of needing a persistent overworld shared with other players not in your immediate party. This gets a bit messy in games like Guild Wars 1 and(at least from what we know at the moment) Anthem where everywhere except towns is limited to just you and your immediate party. I would definitely say Guild Wars 1 is a MMO, but we'll see on Anthem. Battlefield is just straight up not a MMO because it's a server based game. You find a server, you join it, you play, you leave. There's no confusion there, as you're never in any sort of persistent world even if it is limited to just towns. Though as I said before, if it's technically a MMO or not wont really matter(especially since Destiny is already "MMO-lite" to begin with). What matters the most is if the fanbase of Destiny and Anthem see significant overlap.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 24, 2017 17:53:44 GMT
So? No one is denying we only have one trailer to go on, so we're all making our best guesses. I've no doubt that Anthem will go beyond what Destiny is -- if they're smart, since they need to be competitive -- but I see no point in denying the similarities. You'll notice I never used the term MMO. I understand you have equated Destiny with MMO-lite, but that seems a bit of a strawman argument to me. And unnecessarily complicated. Simplistic is good at this point, lest one construct a house of cards on what few facts we have. I hope you are right! I'm skeptical, but that would be great too, just as a Better Destiny than Destiny would be great. I specifically said ultra-rares, which drive the Skinner Box of grinding in Destiny. There is no such Skinner Box experience in MEA or any other game that isn't loot-shoot. Also, in Destiny you have to hike back to the Hub to have a "purple" container rolled on the RNG to become (hopefully) ultra-rare gear. Anthem showed the container rolling of the RNG happening immediately, which to me is a clear in-your-eye to Destiny, because the need to travel back to the Hub to roll the RNG is a pain in the ass for Destiny players. Destiny players immediately recognize that Anthem offers an improvement over that experience. When something is so clearly emphasized in the trailer and, in comparison to Destiny, is a clear advantage, how can one not conclude that comparisons to Destiny were intentional on the part of Bioware? Look, you can't have it both ways. You can't on the one hand declare there is not enough information to say something is like something else, and then turn around and insist that it is not like something else. I get that you are hoping Anthem will turn out to be what you want it to be, and that some aspects of the trailer were more salient to you than they were to me, that's fine. As there is no harm in people getting excited that Anthem might be Destiny-like, let us have our hopes too without disparaging them and we'll do likewise. You don't have to argue that Anthem isn't Destiny-like for your own hopes to be appreciated. My stance on Anthem has been clear all along. None of us know what the game is. I'm just not going to assume it's "Destiny-like" because of a vague 10 minute demo of alpha footage. I'm merely providing alternatives that could easily be just as true as your "Destiny clone" theory. As I've said before, we'll know soon enough what the game actually is when BioWare is ready to talk about it more. Since 2011 with jumps back up each time an expansion comes out but otherwise yeah, WoW numbers have been in a slow decline. Unfortunately because this looks bad to investors they've long since stopped announcing the subscription numbers, so we don't really know how much of a giant the game is anymore(though we do know if it was back up to the numbers they used to have, they'd be telling investors about the jump in players). My experience with BDO is that grouping wasn't mandatory as much as absurd amounts of grinding was. The main reason to group up would be to reduce the grind(or to not get ganked in the PvP areas) but I never felt it was required. As much as raiding on the highest difficulty requires a dedicated group, the percentage of players actually clearing that is extremely low. Even back when WoW was at its peak, Blizzard mentioned in vanilla that less than 1% of players ever got to see Naxxramas which was the final raid before the expansion reset everything. The last raid in Burning Crusade, Sunwell, saw similar numbers. WotLK was the first time we saw raiding as a thing that your average player could do, and they did that by creating difficulty levels for raids where all but the highest could be easily pugged. This was when the game was at its peak playerwise. If the game is a standard issue BioWare RPG with a co-op it might, but thus far we have no evidence that suggests it's going to be that. Their comments on the game so far is really pushing the "shared world with friends" angle to the point where they had to clarify that it will even be solo player friendly to begin with. On top of that the only gameplay video we have specifically only features group play. The fact that you "felt MP wasn't required" is little more than speculation. For a game you keep arguing might just be a standard BioWare RPG with co-op, they certainly appear to be going all in showing that this is a game you play with friends. Not that it means that's what the game is 100% going to be, but that's certainly the narrative that BioWare is trying to spin about the game right now. There is currently more evidence to suggest that the game will be focused on 2-4 player group content rather than a SP experience that just happens to have co-op. 2011 seems way too late to me. I remember hearing about the game having over 12 million subscribers around 2006-2008, but it's never reached that peak again to my knowledge. I'd be surprised if the game even has 6 million subscribers now, as Blizzard is turning to other means of making money. Nobody knows what the game is. I merely pointed out that it's just as possible the game could be a BioWare RPG with coop versus a "Destiny-like" game. With what little we've seen of the game, either possibility could be true. I also wouldn't say there is "no evidence" to support the BioWare RPG with coop idea, considering I've given various explanations and context to what things could mean in the demo. If MP was required, then the main player in the demo would have invited friends before even spawning in the open world. It's not until after she already goes into the open world that she begins inviting players. You may see that as grasping at straws, but in a game where MP is mandatory, you wouldn't likely be going into the open world without a group already formed. The only reason I believe BioWare is likely placing an emphasis on this "shared world" concept is because it's new for BioWare. They've never done an experience like this before (disregarding SWTOR since that's an MMO), so it's obvious they want to show how this is different from what they've done before. That doesn't mean the entire experience is different. That's an assumption many here are making just because they believe since Destiny did well, that means BioWare is jumping on the gravy train with Anthem. To be perfectly honest, Anthem was in development before Destiny 1 was even released. This really isn't that unlike when BioWare first showed off Mass Effect, showcasing the dialogue wheel and voiced protagonist. Those were the new features for BioWare RPGs that have now become the standard for the company. If anything, Anthem is merely following in Mass Effect's footsteps by trying to evolve the BioWare formula further. I think integrated coop could be the next step, just based off of what we have seen.
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Post by Cyonan on Aug 24, 2017 20:27:46 GMT
2011 seems way too late to me. I remember hearing about the game having over 12 million subscribers around 2006-2008, but it's never reached that peak again to my knowledge. I'd be surprised if the game even has 6 million subscribers now, as Blizzard is turning to other means of making money. Nobody knows what the game is. I merely pointed out that it's just as possible the game could be a BioWare RPG with coop versus a "Destiny-like" game. With what little we've seen of the game, either possibility could be true. I also wouldn't say there is "no evidence" to support the BioWare RPG with coop idea, considering I've given various explanations and context to what things could mean in the demo. If MP was required, then the main player in the demo would have invited friends before even spawning in the open world. It's not until after she already goes into the open world that she begins inviting players. You may see that as grasping at straws, but in a game where MP is mandatory, you wouldn't likely be going into the open world without a group already formed. The only reason I believe BioWare is likely placing an emphasis on this "shared world" concept is because it's new for BioWare. They've never done an experience like this before (disregarding SWTOR since that's an MMO), so it's obvious they want to show how this is different from what they've done before. That doesn't mean the entire experience is different. That's an assumption many here are making just because they believe since Destiny did well, that means BioWare is jumping on the gravy train with Anthem. To be perfectly honest, Anthem was in development before Destiny 1 was even released. This really isn't that unlike when BioWare first showed off Mass Effect, showcasing the dialogue wheel and voiced protagonist. Those were the new features for BioWare RPGs that have now become the standard for the company. If anything, Anthem is merely following in Mass Effect's footsteps by trying to evolve the BioWare formula further. I think integrated coop could be the next step, just based off of what we have seen. 2006 - 2008 is off as the peak happened during the end of Wrath of the Lich King and beginning of Cataclysm which Cataclysm came out in December of 2010. Admittedly WotLK didn't really increase the numbers much and Burning Crusade ended off with around 11M in 2007, but the actual peak of nearly 12.5M wasn't until the end of WotLK. 7.5M in Warlords of Draenor was the last time they announced it, and it's suspected that WoD lost them a fair bit more because of how bad it was(plus bad content drought in the second half). Nobody really knows how good Legion is doing in terms of numbers. The monetizing of other things started during Wrath of the Lich King and became much more prevalent during Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria. They haven't really done anything new since then in that area. I would call it grasping at straws unless you want to say that a MP focused game has to have mandatory grouping at all times once you leave town. It's not like in Destiny you're going to need a group immediately upon leaving town, so if that's the qualifier then Destiny isn't a group mandatory game either. Not to mention that in the video the two players are actually talking to each other about what sort of setup they're going to be running as the player is getting into their Javelin, notably while still in town. You see a player named Paul joins the party when the main player is still on the very edge of town just before they jump off into the world. It's technically after she spawned into open world yes, but only by a matter of seconds and clearly there was no danger as they hadn't really fully left town yet. It very well might be like any other BioWare game but as I said before: The evidence we have currently points towards it being a multiplayer focused title, even if it will be solo player friendly(to what extent, we have no idea). If things change in the future they change, but I'm not about to deny that virtually everything is pointing towards a game with more of a focus on MP. That's how BioWare is marketing the game right now. Pointing to Mass Effect 1's marketing(which I watched the E3 trailer from 2006 and honestly they spend more time talking about combat than they do showing off a voiced protagonist) is just speculation that maybe they're doing the same thing.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 25, 2017 3:58:04 GMT
2006 - 2008 is off as the peak happened during the end of Wrath of the Lich King and beginning of Cataclysm which Cataclysm came out in December of 2010. Admittedly WotLK didn't really increase the numbers much and Burning Crusade ended off with around 11M in 2007, but the actual peak of nearly 12.5M wasn't until the end of WotLK. 7.5M in Warlords of Draenor was the last time they announced it, and it's suspected that WoD lost them a fair bit more because of how bad it was(plus bad content drought in the second half). Nobody really knows how good Legion is doing in terms of numbers. The monetizing of other things started during Wrath of the Lich King and became much more prevalent during Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria. They haven't really done anything new since then in that area. I would call it grasping at straws unless you want to say that a MP focused game has to have mandatory grouping at all times once you leave town. It's not like in Destiny you're going to need a group immediately upon leaving town, so if that's the qualifier then Destiny isn't a group mandatory game either. Not to mention that in the video the two players are actually talking to each other about what sort of setup they're going to be running as the player is getting into their Javelin, notably while still in town. You see a player named Paul joins the party when the main player is still on the very edge of town just before they jump off into the world. It's technically after she spawned into open world yes, but only by a matter of seconds and clearly there was no danger as they hadn't really fully left town yet. It very well might be like any other BioWare game but as I said before: The evidence we have currently points towards it being a multiplayer focused title, even if it will be solo player friendly(to what extent, we have no idea). If things change in the future they change, but I'm not about to deny that virtually everything is pointing towards a game with more of a focus on MP. That's how BioWare is marketing the game right now. Pointing to Mass Effect 1's marketing(which I watched the E3 trailer from 2006 and honestly they spend more time talking about combat than they do showing off a voiced protagonist) is just speculation that maybe they're doing the same thing. Fair enough. It's quickly approaching a decade since WoW was at its peak. I doubt Blizzard will ever actually reveal the population again at this point. The game is still profitable, and if folks have been playing WoW for all these years, I see little reason why they'd leave now. That depends on the content. A lot of the content in Destiny is geared towards grouping, with the exception of their poor excuse for a story. Even then, one major point that must be considered is that you will come across other random players in the world in Destiny. Thus, a party isn't necessarily required, as you may just find a buddy in the world who can help you in that given moment. Anthem, based on first impressions, doesn't give the sense that there will just be random players in the world with you. That could end up being true, but it seems to be set up more like Ghost Recon: Wildlands or Monster Hunter World. In other words, you are just in your own private world, but you are able to invite in buddies at anytime to join you on your journey. Part of the issue with the demo is we weren't really sure how the main player was communicating with Paul. Since it was on the Xbox Press Conference stage, I'd assume BioWare was suggesting they were in some sort of party chat outside of the game. When she loads into the open world is when it seems clear that Paul is invited, as he then spawns in. That's purely just speculation, of course, but that's what I would assume the initial communication was supposed to replicate at the beginning. I'm not disagreeing with you that this is speculation. I just don't want to rule out that this might not really be Destiny-like. BioWare could just as easily be showcasing the new features for a BioWare game, which is why multiplayer has been such an emphasis. If we think about it, BioWare has been preparing for this kind of infrastructure going back to ME3 MP. DAI MP iterated on it, and MEA MP continued that trend. It would seem to me that those were, to some extent, a testing ground for a proof of concept for Anthem. Again, maybe it ends up being a Destiny clone after all. I'm just skeptical BioWare is going to throw their player base under the bus to "cash in" on a currently popular trend.
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