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Post by abaris on Nov 11, 2017 18:49:10 GMT
FO4 was successful because it focused on the setting and choices ONLY. The more important point is, hardly any Bethesda fan expected them to do more than that. People would have been pleasantly surprised if that had changed, but they didn't demand something the company never supported or provided. With Bioware they have proven to be able to do better in previous games. So people are looking at their better efforts and ask, why they felt the need to water everything down beyond recognition. If a company feels the need for change, they better make sure there's a sufficient market to support their change. Which obviously wasn't the case with MEA.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 11, 2017 19:36:10 GMT
1) excellent main story 2) malleable protagonist 3) a diverse set of companions 4) content devoted to developing those companions 5) even more content to develop the setting 6) meaningful choices that resonate significantly throughout the story 7) great cinematic content to bring that all to life 8) engaging combat with options that allow you roleplay your character 9) AND MORE... It's an interesting list. Do we have consensus on which points ME:A failed?
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Nov 11, 2017 21:37:17 GMT
1) excellent main story 2) malleable protagonist 3) a diverse set of companions 4) content devoted to developing those companions 5) even more content to develop the setting 6) meaningful choices that resonate significantly throughout the story 7) great cinematic content to bring that all to life 8) engaging combat with options that allow you roleplay your character 9) AND MORE... It's an interesting list. Do we have consensus on which points ME:A failed? Consensus? BioWare? lol I would say that most complaints stemmed from: 1) Cinematic content 2) Main story 3) Setting development 4) Character development I still find the complaints regarding the first to have been asinine, but there are legitimate qualms about the other three.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Nov 11, 2017 21:42:36 GMT
With Bioware they have proven to be able to do better in previous games. So people are looking at their better efforts and ask, why they felt the need to water everything down beyond recognition. If a company feels the need for change, they better make sure there's a sufficient market to support their change. Which obviously wasn't the case with MEA. MEA was heavily trashtalked even before its release. It's very naive to assume that its market was not hit by all the negative press. It's even more naive to believe that the negative press did not negatively reinforce the preconceptions people had about the game. Ultimately, other games did better because either goals or expectations were different. DAO is the best example of that. Objectively DAI was of much better quality on release, but people were far more harsh on DAI because standards are much higher now. Again I believe that BioWare needs to focus their efforts on a few key RPG goals. They should not try to encompass everything. No other RPG attempts to do this. It's a sure set-up to failure in today's markets.
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Post by abaris on Nov 11, 2017 21:47:33 GMT
Consensus? BioWare? lol I would say that most complaints stemmed from: 1) Cinematic content 2) Main story 3) Setting development 4) Character development I still find the complaints regarding the first to have been asinine, but there are legitimate qualms about the other three. I couldn't care less about the first point. 2) lackluster and short 3) non existent, if setting means Nexus and Outposts 4) Jack of All Trades approach, which seriously limits replayability. The most important points however are what you mentioned earlier. Companions.They carried every other ME game and their strong design made it easier to overlook other weaknesses.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Nov 11, 2017 21:50:27 GMT
Right. That's what I'm saying. What people expect the most from BioWare are companions and content dedicated to them.
They need to focus on that. They seem to have diverted that focus to fulfill other RPG goals, and that has been detrimental.
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Post by simit on Nov 11, 2017 22:01:05 GMT
Opinions wee all love to think ours is valid an correct it why ever game dev/publisher/series has it triggered snowflake's, i honestly dont think i visited a game forum that was free of them.
I made a comment about final fantasy other day that prob relevant here, i used to love the final fantasy series but dont now, why? I grew up an, for me, the series hasn't. Bioware basically made the same type of game for years 'here snowflake go collect a grp of other snowflakes an beatup the bigbad' that's basically been every Bioware game for years, do ppl like it? yes ofc we are all here afterall, the problem for me though is there predictable an it why i have never been able to get friends to buy a Bioware game, the only time anyone of my friends grew interested in a Bioware game was when Anthem was shown an then it made tyem sit up an take notice of a game company they always dismissed before, for me an what i see from Bioware 'fans' currently is the ever increase in me me me attitude an Bioware basically trying to give everyone wat they want with they end product being mediocre at best an a portion of the me me crowd being vocal about there portion of the pie, hard to say but i hope Anthem is a new beginning for bioware games an brings in fresh blood who will just enjoy the game for well a game. I think in some ways wee all as BioWare fans have become abit entitled especially in regards to companions an if it takes removing them an making games for a newer fanbase so be it, i've left games before simply because i didnt like the direction they went i will do so again but this time i actually like the direction Anthem looks to be going tbh
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Post by abaris on Nov 11, 2017 22:09:49 GMT
I think in some ways wee all as BioWare fans have become abit entitled especially in regards to companions an if it takes removing them an making games for a newer fanbase so be it, i've left games before simply because i didnt like the direction they went i will do so again but this time i actually like the direction Anthem looks to be going tbh Once again, it's not entitlement. It's what many Bioware players expect, based on previous experiences with the company. They sold a new product and failed to deliver on what made them great and nearly exclusive. A paid product, mind you. Entitlement only kicks in if people start to bitch and moan over some freebies.
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Post by river82 on Nov 12, 2017 0:24:30 GMT
DAO is the best example of that. Objectively DAI was of much better quality on release, but people were far more harsh on DAI because standards are much higher now. Actually it depends what people are looking for. Origins had a far greater strategic combat system (no healers, HAH) than Inquisition , and a far greater word count (which affects customisation of main character's personality, choices, fleshing out story and relationships and a host of other stuff.) Origins also nailed what Bioware is good at exploration wise, which is small areas that are interesting to explore and flesh out the world, Inquisition was Bioware attempting to do what they weren't good at, which is vast open world exploration where much of the landscape is dull and frustrating. Inquisition, Andromeda, Mass Effect 1 all attempted vast exploration and were all lambasted for doing a pretty poor job. There are aspects which Inquisition did better and aspects which Origins did better, and which game you think is objectively better depends on what you prefer. Personally I prefer KOTORII more than any game I mentioned, but that hit all the right buttons for me. EDIT: Crossed out something that's not true upon checking. Was thinking of another game. I'll replace that point by saying I thought the main story for Origins was better than the main story for Inquisition (less disjointed, better paced, more epic) but that's subjective. Though it shows that whether Inquisition is objectively better than Origins is a very controversial point.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 12, 2017 1:04:59 GMT
So as Abaris insinuates, it's about expectations. That's exactly what it is. It doesn't help that RPG players ARE entitled. Even I am. BioWare fans in particular because they expect: 1) excellent main story 2) malleable protagonist 3) a diverse set of companions 4) content devoted to developing those companions 5) even more content to develop the setting 6) meaningful choices that resonate significantly throughout the story 7) great cinematic content to bring that all to life 8) engaging combat with options that allow you roleplay your character 9) AND MORE... The biggest problem with BioWare games is that when they try to aim for all of these, they can't do it. NOBODY can. FO4 was successful because it focused on the setting and choices ONLY. There was almost no cinematic content, and combat was just your basic shooter. Companions were basic. TW3 was successful because it had no actual companions, the PC was a preset unique character with no functional customization, and combat was OK but nothing amazing or innovative. They still delivered excellently on all other fronts. Now you can argue that a successful game like DAO managed to pull it all off. The fact is it DIDN'T. DAO's production was messed up and the game barely broke even. It was RIDDLED with bugs on release, many of them gamebreaking and never fixed. Mods fixed DAO. One of their most successful games is ME2. Why? Because they did not focus on the main story at all. They did not focus on developing the setting at all. All the focus was ONLY on the companions and them alone. People loved it. So that's what BioWare needs to return to. They need to return to focusing on the companions only. Sure some people might QQ about the main story being shit, but they can deal. Slap on an epic ending to the main story, and almost nobody will care. Happened to ME2 after all. Well it looks like Bioware is once again forgoing companions in Anthem to focus on multiplayer.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Nov 12, 2017 2:23:56 GMT
Anthem's a new IP so they can do what they want with it. Hopefully it'll help clean BioWare's slate a bit.
My comment was in regards to the next Dragon Age mostly.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Nov 12, 2017 5:26:59 GMT
So as Abaris insinuates, it's about expectations. That's exactly what it is. It doesn't help that RPG players ARE entitled. Even I am. BioWare fans in particular because they expect: 1) excellent main story 2) malleable protagonist 3) a diverse set of companions 4) content devoted to developing those companions 5) even more content to develop the setting 6) meaningful choices that resonate significantly throughout the story 7) great cinematic content to bring that all to life 8) engaging combat with options that allow you roleplay your character 9) AND MORE... The biggest problem with BioWare games is that when they try to aim for all of these, they can't do it. NOBODY can. FO4 was successful because it focused on the setting and choices ONLY. There was almost no cinematic content, and combat was just your basic shooter. Companions were basic. TW3 was successful because it had no actual companions, the PC was a preset unique character with no functional customization, and combat was OK but nothing amazing or innovative. They still delivered excellently on all other fronts. Now you can argue that a successful game like DAO managed to pull it all off. The fact is it DIDN'T. DAO's production was messed up and the game barely broke even. It was RIDDLED with bugs on release, many of them gamebreaking and never fixed. Mods fixed DAO. One of their most successful games is ME2. Why? Because they did not focus on the main story at all. They did not focus on developing the setting at all. All the focus was ONLY on the companions and them alone. People loved it.So that's what BioWare needs to return to. They need to return to focusing on the companions only. Sure some people might QQ about the main story being shit, but they can deal. Slap on an epic ending to the main story, and almost nobody will care. Happened to ME2 after all. What's interesting is very recently herd someone say ME2 was and still is the worst Mass Effect game. This was the reason they cited. Interesting how people view games differently.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Nov 12, 2017 11:53:51 GMT
Of course opinions differ, but objectively speaking, Mass Effect 2 was arguably the most overall successful SP RPG BioWare release
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Post by N7Valentine on Nov 12, 2017 12:58:10 GMT
Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one That's what I usually say. The internet is filled with all kinds of triggered snowflakes like you have people who complain about female leads because that's "pandering to feminists" and other crap because it's unrealistic ROFLMAO. It's just hilarious sometimes, so I grab my popcorn and just read these comments. The thing is ME:A wasn't the worst game ever created but it was a letdown for an ME game. Plus, Bioware has been accused of being SJW and other crap, which does have an influence on some people I also agree with some people that the game got a lot of flak even before its release, which ofc, tarnished the game's reception even more. All they need to do is to put some effort into the story, setting and characters. That's all
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Post by abaris on Nov 12, 2017 13:45:26 GMT
What's interesting is very recently herd someone say ME2 was and still is the worst Mass Effect game. This was the reason they cited. Interesting how people view games differently. The difference is, you heard someone say doesn't even count as anecdotal evidence. Of course there will always be people liking or disliking certain things. But with ME2 there hasn't been nearly the same outrage as with the endings of ME3 or MEA in general. The latter two really hit a nerve with a lot of people and I'm not talking about the SJW bullshitters.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 12, 2017 16:09:02 GMT
I'm actually one of the people who think the focus on companions that Mac Walters is all about is a problem.
I see MEA as a game that tries to be all about a dorky funny crew and their love lives without doing any noteworthy world building.
THAT among other things is what makes MEA such a hollow experience.
And the only reason ME2 works is because ME1 did all the world building. So all these squadmate missions could EXPAND the player's understanding of the Milky Way races and their customs.
To me MEA is Sims in space. The focus is entirely on the crew and their unexciting problems. The plot is weak. We know almost nothing about Andromeda. There literally *is* nothing in that cluster but sand and ice. Only one new race to get to know while the kett are laughable hive mind bad guys we did not get to know as advertized.
You can't just write characters in a vacuum. They don't come alive unless the world makes sense. But nothing about the AI makes any sense. That's why to me a least the entire game feels like wooden puppets on an empty canvas doing nothing interesting.
Characters and a shit ton of romance options alone do not make a good game.
Imo Mac Walters got it wrong. First you gotta build a cool world, THEN you can focus on the people in it.
ME2 got elevated by ME1's accomplishments. ME2 has the least RPG elements. Duck and shoot combat that only seemed awesome because it succeeded ME1's awkward one. Replaying ME2 after 3 made me realize what a boring design it actually was. A serviceable plot with a terrible final boss fight idea. And a suicide mission where everyone easily survives.
Don't get me wrong, ME2 is the game version of a cool summer blockbuster. It's actually thr most fun to replay for me. The characters work. But not on their own. Gotta see it in context.
MEA basically stripped the franchise of its roots and failed to plant new ones.
Worldbuilding should come first. Always.
My two cents.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 16:50:24 GMT
I'm actually one of the people who think the focus on companions that Mac Walters is all about is a problem. I see MEA as a game that tries to be all about a dorky funny crew and their love lives without doing any noteworthy world building. THAT among other things is what makes MEA such a hollow experience. And the only reason ME2 works is because ME1 did all the world building. So all these squadmate missions could EXPAND the player's understanding of the Milky Way races and their customs. To me MEA is Sims in space. The focus is entirely on the crew and their unexciting problems. The plot is weak. We know almost nothing about Andromeda. There literally *is* nothing in that cluster but sand and ice. Only one new race to get to know while the kett are laughable hive mind bad guys we did not get to know as advertized. You can't just write characters in a vacuum. They don't come alive unless the world makes sense. But nothing about the AI makes any sense. That's why to me a least the entire game feels like wooden puppets on an empty canvas doing nothing interesting. Characters and a shit ton of romance options alone do not make a good game. Imo Mac Walters got it wrong. First you gotta build a cool world, THEN you can focus on the people in it. ME2 got elevated by ME1's accomplishments. ME2 has the least RPG elements. Duck and shoot combat that only seemed awesome because it succeeded ME1's awkward one. Replaying ME2 after 3 made me realize what a boring design it actually was. A serviceable plot with a terrible final boss fight idea. And a suicide mission where everyone easily survives. Don't get me wrong, ME2 is the game version of a cool summer blockbuster. It's actually thr most fun to replay for me. The characters work. But not on their own. Gotta see it in context. MEA basically stripped the franchise of its roots and failed to plant new ones. Worldbuilding should come first. Always. My two cents. OMG, someone finally said what I'm thinking. Thank you.
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Post by Superhik on Nov 12, 2017 17:04:32 GMT
You can't just write characters in a vacuum. They don't come alive unless the world makes sense. But nothing about the AI makes any sense. That's why to me a least the entire game feels like wooden puppets on an empty canvas doing nothing interesting. I'd buy you a cheesecake for this. Noah Gervais also said something interesting.."there is pervasive feeling throughout playing Andromeda, about wanting to be liked". ( But the game skips too many steps so it comes across as forced and shallow).
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 12, 2017 18:39:00 GMT
With Bioware they have proven to be able to do better in previous games. So people are looking at their better efforts and ask, why they felt the need to water everything down beyond recognition. If a company feels the need for change, they better make sure there's a sufficient market to support their change. Which obviously wasn't the case with MEA. MEA was heavily trashtalked even before its release. It's very naive to assume that its market was not hit by all the negative press. It's even more naive to believe that the negative press did not negatively reinforce the preconceptions people had about the game. Ultimately, other games did better because either goals or expectations were different. DAO is the best example of that. Objectively DAI was of much better quality on release, but people were far more harsh on DAI because standards are much higher now. Again I believe that BioWare needs to focus their efforts on a few key RPG goals. They should not try to encompass everything. No other RPG attempts to do this. It's a sure set-up to failure in today's markets. You continue with this conspiracy that the internet is to blame for MEA's failure. Proof is, if MEA was Bioware's best game ever, it would have been reflected in the reception and review scores. Bioware is not the only developer to have their games "trashtalked" before release and yet they still continue to get reasonable reception and review scores. Yes, the animations hurt MEA Yes, not having Shepard or being in the Milky Way hurt MEA But at the core of it all, MEA just isn't Bioware's best game and to assume otherwise is to be naive. Again, please watch: She is not a lone wolf, There are MANY others out there like her who was HYPED about MEA and couldn't wait to play more Mass Effect.....but then once they got their hands on MEA.....they didn't enjoy. They didn't trash talk MEA, hell, they wanted to like it, but it just was unlikable. But of course you will dismiss that claim because you want to believe that nothing was wrong with MEA and that it was just internet memes/conspiracy to take down MEA as the reason why it failed.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 12, 2017 18:46:43 GMT
TW3 was successful because it had no actual companions, the PC was a preset unique character with no functional customization, and combat was OK but nothing amazing or innovative. They still delivered excellently on all other fronts. Well, it depends on what you mean by companions. Does TW3 have companions that follow you around everywhere you go? No Does TW3 have a home base where you can go and talk to all your companions? No, but in a lot of ways, TW3 does have companions. Dandelion Triss Yennefer Zoltan Ciri These are all characters that Geralt has close relationships with throughout the game and in many instances, they fight with you. You get to know them, do side quest for/with them, spend downtime with, and in the case of Triss/Yennefer, can romance. Again, they aren't companions in the sense that they follow you where ever you go, but do your friends follow you around everywhere you go? And because they do not follow you around, does that make them any less of a companion to you?
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Post by abaris on Nov 12, 2017 19:26:28 GMT
To me MEA is Sims in space. Am I wrong in assuming, you never played the Sims? They are anything but hollow. At least up until Sims 2. If it had been the Sims in space I wouldn't have complained.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Nov 12, 2017 22:16:18 GMT
TW3 was successful because it had no actual companions, the PC was a preset unique character with no functional customization, and combat was OK but nothing amazing or innovative. They still delivered excellently on all other fronts. Well, it depends on what you mean by companions. Does TW3 have companions that follow you around everywhere you go? No Does TW3 have a home base where you can go and talk to all your companions? No, but in a lot of ways, TW3 does have companions. Dandelion Triss Yennefer Zoltan Ciri These are all characters that Geralt has close relationships with throughout the game and in many instances, they fight with you. You get to know them, do side quest for/with them, spend downtime with, and in the case of Triss/Yennefer, can romance. Again, they aren't companions in the sense that they follow you where ever you go, but do your friends follow you around everywhere you go? And because they do not follow you around, does that make them any less of a companion to you? Those are major characters in the story, rather than companions. Still I can't really argue that they don't fulfill some similar functions to the BioWare companions. The idea is that they aren't the focus.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 12, 2017 22:16:46 GMT
To me MEA is Sims in space. Am I wrong in assuming, you never played the Sims? They are anything but hollow. At least up until Sims 2. If it had been the Sims in space I wouldn't have complained. Yeah ok. Got me. Only watched a friend play it for a bit ten years ago. It seemed to be mostly about drowning them in a pool or burning them alive. Now that I think about it.. would habe been more entertaining than what we got, yes. ;P Airlock DLC... Hmmmm. Might have sold well!
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Nov 12, 2017 22:22:14 GMT
MEA was heavily trashtalked even before its release. It's very naive to assume that its market was not hit by all the negative press. It's even more naive to believe that the negative press did not negatively reinforce the preconceptions people had about the game. Ultimately, other games did better because either goals or expectations were different. DAO is the best example of that. Objectively DAI was of much better quality on release, but people were far more harsh on DAI because standards are much higher now. Again I believe that BioWare needs to focus their efforts on a few key RPG goals. They should not try to encompass everything. No other RPG attempts to do this. It's a sure set-up to failure in today's markets. You continue with this conspiracy that the internet is to blame for MEA's failure. Please read the whole post before responding. I made it clear that MEA's main problem was that it tried to encompass too much rather than focus on the key components. Still, ignoring the impact of negative reinforcement is naive. A lot of MEA's "problems" would not have been as noticeable if it weren't for the memelords of the internet.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Nov 13, 2017 0:11:31 GMT
So I guess consumers should thank them for bringing those issues into light. Memelords, keep doing what you are doing.
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