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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 21:29:31 GMT
1) Perhaps you're finally seeing my point... as long as the opposite isn't shoved in your face present... you CAN imagine stuff. The moment Bioware would have put up a really emotional reaction to dad's death, because they were not putting in two completely different scenes to hand the "other" situation where Ryder may not give a damn about dad, they went with a more neutral reaction and expressly gave you the opportunity to imagine the other scenario. It's not jarring enough for people to be making such a huge deal over it. They were able to pick Shepard's background with only a paragraph describing it. But here, now, they want his whole background hand fed to them in perfect cinematic color right on screen. You're JUST picking Ryder's background relationship with his dad;a dn it is of minor consequence in the game. Sure, it would be great if they did cinematic scenes to cover off every range of emotion possible in every possible situation that might come up in the PC's life during the game time... but that isn't being realistic and you know it. 2) The overall tone of the game is comedic and ironic. You've complained that you don't like it. Fine, you don't like it... but don't suggest that it's inherently the situation that's making it so. As for the last part... see 1) 3) Still missing the point - SAM is special, Ryder is not. SAM is a separate and sentient being. You're not playing as SAM... You're really playing only as SAM's conduit to the world... a way to gather the language bits he needs to put the whole galactic puzzle together. We don't know where the sequel was heading with all of that... and we may never know. The bottom line possibility remains that everything Ryder did to alter the previous status quo in that galaxy may be detrimental to it in the long run. It's a possibility brought up in the dialogue in the game repeatedly. Were the monoliths intentionally shut down and if so, why? 1) then what's the point of dialogue at all? Just give us silent protagonists again. Then we can "imagine" the tone. I mean seriously, I keep getting reminded of the scene in the Trespasser DLC where the Anchor is starting to go critical and is threatening to kill the Inquisitor. the emotions there felt REAL! The Inquisitor can Be freaking TERRIFIED Or analytical Or p*ssed off: Or simply tough it out: How does anything MEA has even compare? 2) The overall tone of the game was wildly inconsistent. And that, I think is a big part of what hurt the game. You would prefer that... I would not. I'd rather sacrifice some tone here and there... as in making a mere background decision about the PC and have the voicing than do without the voicing entirely. If Bioware made ME into an unvoiced series, it would not be my preference... but I would not be trying to "force" them into voicing it either. If you are indeed capable of imagining an unvoiced game and enjoying it (as you do)... then you should be equally capable of filling in some gaps in a voiced one. Whether or not Ryder cared about his dad is merely a background choice. You can play as an uncaring Ryder... liberating you from picking up the memory triggers and unlocking the optional (repeat optional) information in the Ryder Family Secrets quest. It changes one line dialogue at the end... you either credit dad with the "when your back is against wall, use it" statement (if you say you cared) or using the remnant is your own idea (if you say you didn't know him and you don't collect the memory triggers). Not a particularly huge difference and, therefore, IMO, not a particularly huge sin on Bioware's part either. I'm also not the puritan about RPG-ness that you are. I think an somewhat-RPG-ish action game that tells me a story and gives me a little leeway to participate can be just as fun as one that gives me all the player agency in the world. For all its flaws, ME:A has been a fun game for me... and at the bottom line, that is all that matters to me in a game.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 10, 2017 21:44:03 GMT
You would prefer that... I would not. I'd rather sacrifice some tone here and there... as in making a mere background decision about the PC and have the voicing than do without the voicing entirely. If Bioware made ME into an unvoiced series, it would not be my preference... but I would not be trying to "force" them into voicing it either. If you are indeed capable of imagining an unvoiced game and enjoying it (as you do)... then you should be equally capable of filling in some gaps in a voiced one. Whether or not Ryder cared about his dad is merely a background choice. You can play as an uncaring Ryder... liberating you from picking up the memory triggers and unlocking the optional (repeat optional) information in the Ryder Family Secrets quest. It changes one line dialogue at the end... you either credit dad with the "when your back is against wall, use it" statement (if you say you cared) or using the remnant is your own idea (if you say you didn't know him and you don't collect the memory triggers). Not a particularly huge difference and, therefore, IMO, not a particularly huge sin on Bioware's part either. I want to Role-Play in my role-playing games. I understand that there must be limits, but I'd rather have two or three emotional responses and one "distant" one for times my character should be uncaring than four flavors of "meh" If Ryder's father was already deceased at the start of the game, I would agree. The relationship should be relegated to a background choice. But he dies for you at the start of the game. That's major. How a character feels about his/her own father sacrificing himself right in front of you...that should be of importance, not relegated to the background. I am not saying that Ryder MUST be emotionally attached to his or her father, but it should be a role-playing option. Leaving it as nothing more than "gaps" to be filled in is, frankly lazy writing. I can do that with a game of Frogger, I expect more from a multimillion dollar AAA RPG. And the difference between a Caring and Distant Ryder is one line of dialogue at the very end? Really?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 21:53:22 GMT
You would prefer that... I would not. I'd rather sacrifice some tone here and there... as in making a mere background decision about the PC and have the voicing than do without the voicing entirely. If Bioware made ME into an unvoiced series, it would not be my preference... but I would not be trying to "force" them into voicing it either. If you are indeed capable of imagining an unvoiced game and enjoying it (as you do)... then you should be equally capable of filling in some gaps in a voiced one. Whether or not Ryder cared about his dad is merely a background choice. You can play as an uncaring Ryder... liberating you from picking up the memory triggers and unlocking the optional (repeat optional) information in the Ryder Family Secrets quest. It changes one line dialogue at the end... you either credit dad with the "when your back is against wall, use it" statement (if you say you cared) or using the remnant is your own idea (if you say you didn't know him and you don't collect the memory triggers). Not a particularly huge difference and, therefore, IMO, not a particularly huge sin on Bioware's part either. I want to Role-Play in my role-playing games. I understand that there must be limits, but I'd rather have two or three emotional responses and one "distant" one for times my character should be uncaring than four flavors of "meh" If Ryder's father was already deceased at the start of the game, I would agree. The relationship should be relegated to a background choice. But he dies for you at the start of the game. That's major. How a character feels about his/her own father sacrificing himself right in front of you...that should be of importance, not relegated to the background. I am not saying that Ryder MUST be emotionally attached to his or her father, but it should be a role-playing option. Leaving it as nothing more than "gaps" to be filled in is, frankly lazy writing. I can do that with a game of Frogger, I expect more from a multimillion dollar AAA RPG. And the difference between a Caring and Distant Ryder is one line of dialogue at the very end? Really? Well, you'd obviously be happier if they just had a paragraph at the start like ME1..because, again, that's the level of this particular decision in this game (how it might affect a sequel is unknown - dad may still be brought back to life). If you want to establish on screen emotional your character is in every situation... it's not reasonable. This was set up the way it was so that the player could decide whether or not to do one particular optional quest - Ryder's Family Secrets. The game's ending functions just fine no matter which way you decide (as it should with an optional side quest). There IS, however, more involved in the side quest... if you do it. You do find out about mom being alive and you get a scene with your twin about that. If you don't, you don't know she's there, so you don't get that scene. You get all the memory scenes through doing that quest as well. The only thing not shown is obvious emotion on screen... for that you are given two hours "with your own thoughts" expressly said in the game. For crying out loud... stop bitching about it and use your imagination.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 10, 2017 21:56:56 GMT
I want to Role-Play in my role-playing games. I understand that there must be limits, but I'd rather have two or three emotional responses and one "distant" one for times my character should be uncaring than four flavors of "meh" If Ryder's father was already deceased at the start of the game, I would agree. The relationship should be relegated to a background choice. But he dies for you at the start of the game. That's major. How a character feels about his/her own father sacrificing himself right in front of you...that should be of importance, not relegated to the background. I am not saying that Ryder MUST be emotionally attached to his or her father, but it should be a role-playing option. Leaving it as nothing more than "gaps" to be filled in is, frankly lazy writing. I can do that with a game of Frogger, I expect more from a multimillion dollar AAA RPG. And the difference between a Caring and Distant Ryder is one line of dialogue at the very end? Really? Well, you'd obviously be happier if they just had a paragraph at the start like ME1..because, again, that's the level of this particular decision in this game (how it might affect a sequel is unknown - dad may still be brought back to life). If you want to establish on screen emotional your character is in every situation... it's not reasonable. This was set up the way it was so that the player could decide whether or not to do one particular optional quest - Ryder's Family Secrets. The game's ending functions just fine no matter which way you decide (as it should with an optional side quest). There IS, however, more involved in the side quest... if you do it. You do find out about mom being alive and you get a scene with your twin about that. If you don't, you don't know she's there, so you don't get that scene. You get all the memory scenes through doing that quest as well. The only thing not shown is obvious emotion on screen... for that you are given two hours "with your own thoughts" expressly said in the game. For crying out loud... stop bitching about it and use your imagination. How is an option to have an emotional response to "my dad just sacrificed his life right in front of me so I could live" unreasonable? Seriously, I'll wait. Hell, one of the four "stances" in the game is even supposed to be "passionate"!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 22:11:30 GMT
Well, you'd obviously be happier if they just had a paragraph at the start like ME1..because, again, that's the level of this particular decision in this game (how it might affect a sequel is unknown - dad may still be brought back to life). If you want to establish on screen emotional your character is in every situation... it's not reasonable. This was set up the way it was so that the player could decide whether or not to do one particular optional quest - Ryder's Family Secrets. The game's ending functions just fine no matter which way you decide (as it should with an optional side quest). There IS, however, more involved in the side quest... if you do it. You do find out about mom being alive and you get a scene with your twin about that. If you don't, you don't know she's there, so you don't get that scene. You get all the memory scenes through doing that quest as well. The only thing not shown is obvious emotion on screen... for that you are given two hours "with your own thoughts" expressly said in the game. For crying out loud... stop bitching about it and use your imagination. How is an option to have an emotional response to "my dad just sacrificed his life right in front of me so I could live" unreasonable? Seriously, I'll wait. Hell, of of the four "stances" in the game is even supposed to be "passionate"! How is your PC waiting 30 seconds until everyone leaves the room to break down over it an unreasonable alteration to your ability to roleplay a character who cared about his dad? Particularly when ME1's 3 background choices were made without anything and ultimately had zero impact on the ending of ME1... It didn't matter whether Shep grew up an orphan in a slum on earth or on a ship with a mom and dad in space (and you have no idea in that game what they were like) or was captured as a slave in Mindoir. The choices resulted in 1 of 3 optional side quests... that's it, that's all. I really don't see how this is materially different from that... but obviously it was so much better done in ME1 for you. You say you understand limitation... but you want PASSIONATE simply because you want it. Passionate Ryder is outside the limitations of the game... He's not within the range of characters Bioware wrote into the game. Evil Ryder is also outside the limations of the game. You have a range of young, inexperienced Ryders to select from. The personality choices range from casual and easy-going to logical and professional. Exactly what the options indicate. Nothing says that an RPG has to offer every range of personality. TW3 only offers one type of personality... and yet, it's not criticized for lack of range. I want to roleplay a happy, go-lucky Geralt.. wah, wah, wah... His VA never says anything in a happy go-lucky way. Guess what... that's not a sin for that game... and NEITHER is not offering PASSIONATE a sin for this one. I will concede that the "emotional" tag could have been given a more suitable name (since people do associate emotional people as having extreme emotions). It's really more a reserve or empathetic queries and responses like "Is my sister going to be OK?" or "That's terrible" as opposed to the more factual queries an responses such as What's the prognosis?" or "Give me the navpoint."
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 10, 2017 22:40:37 GMT
Is this a problem with tonal inconsistency itself, or just ME:A's execution of it? Wait, are you suggesting the tonal inconsistency was intended? Sure. It's a thing, particularly in episodic television. It's harder to pull off in films; a good director can do it, but if you don't have the chops of a Demme or a Lynch, it can just be a mess. It's hard to conceive of the tones actually getting away from the writer by accident, since the Bio script outlines we've seen are written around the emotional beats
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Post by Iakus on Oct 10, 2017 22:47:49 GMT
Wait, are you suggesting the tonal inconsistency was intended? Sure. It's a thing, particularly in episodic television. It's harder to pull off in films; a good director can do it, but if you don't have the chops of a Demme or a Lynch, it can just be a mess. It's hard to conceive of the tones actually getting away from the writer by accident, since the Bio script outlines we've seen are written around the emotional beats Well, then, I guess my answer will have to be the execution. Assuming this was in fact intentional. Now I don't mind a degree of humor, when it's intentional. I thoroughly enjoyed Liam's personal mission, it it was by far one of the silliest moments in the game (deliberately serious, at least). But in moments where Ryder is cracking wise when it seems really inappropriate it becomes, as you say, a mess.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 10, 2017 22:54:54 GMT
How is an option to have an emotional response to "my dad just sacrificed his life right in front of me so I could live" unreasonable? Seriously, I'll wait. Hell, of of the four "stances" in the game is even supposed to be "passionate"! How is your PC waiting 30 seconds until everyone leaves the room to break down over it an unreasonable alteration to your ability to roleplay a character who cared about his dad? Particularly when ME1's 3 background choices were made without anything and ultimately had zero impact on the ending of ME1... It didn't matter whether Shep grew up an orphan in a slum on earth or on a ship with a mom and dad in space (and you have no idea in that game what they were like) or was captured as a slave in Mindoir. The choices resulted in 1 of 3 optional side quests... that's it, that's all. I really don't see how this is materially different from that... but obviously it was so much better done in ME1 for you. You say you understand limitation... but you want PASSIONATE simply because you want it. Passionate Ryder is outside the limitations of the game... He's not within the range of characters Bioware wrote into the game. Evil Ryder is also outside the limations of the game. You have a range of young, inexperienced Ryders to select from. The personality choices range from casual and easy-going to logical and professional. Exactly what the options indicate. Nothing says that an RPG has to offer every range of personality. TW3 only offers one type of personality... and yet, it's not criticized for lack of range. I want to roleplay a happy, go-lucky Geralt.. wah, wah, wah... His VA never says anything in a happy go-lucky way. Guess what... that's not a sin for that game... and NEITHER is not offer PASSIONATE a sin for this one. What does ME1's backgrounds have to do with anything? These are events that happened years before. Not days. Besides which, I would think Bioware would be interested in improving the gaming experience over the last decade, particularly after the railroaded ME3 experience. Damn right I want passionate because I want it. You think I'd want it because I DIDN'T want it? But you know what, bring on Evil Ryder too! I wouldn't play it, but I know people who would. Options for everyone! ANd I've played logical and professional Ryder. Not a whole hell of a lot of difference between that and casual, "passionate" Ryder. Heck, I'm not even sure the game was designed with rational Ryder at all! And I find it hilarious that wanting even a couple of passionate responses in moments where a passionate response would make sense is wanting "every range of personality" Hyperbole much? The Witcher? Sorry, Geralt has no power here. I don't like the Witcher games. Wanna know a big part of the reason why? Because I can't play Geralt as my character!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 22:57:50 GMT
Sure. It's a thing, particularly in episodic television. It's harder to pull off in films; a good director can do it, but if you don't have the chops of a Demme or a Lynch, it can just be a mess. It's hard to conceive of the tones actually getting away from the writer by accident, since the Bio script outlines we've seen are written around the emotional beats Well, then, I guess my answer will have to be the execution. Assuming this was in fact intentional. Now I don't mind a degree of humor, when it's intentional. I thoroughly enjoyed Liam's personal mission, it it was by far one of the silliest moments in the game (deliberately serious, at least). But in moments where Ryder is cracking wise when it seems rally inappropriate it becomes, as you say, a mess. For good or bad, I do think that at least some of those moments where Ryder can come up with an inappropriate joke ARE intentional... to show that he/she is only 22 and slips up now and then... isn't so poised that he/she says the exactly right thing in every circumstance. Jokes and jokers often fall flat because they are ill-timed. I think it was a way of making the PC fallible... something that the fans requested as I recall. The Angara will often make fun of Ryder because of those lines. For example, the scientist on Havarl will respond to one such line with "strange jokes aside..."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 23:12:50 GMT
Post deleted because it came out as format coded gibberish for some unknown reason... dang internet. I may try again later.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 0:05:47 GMT
How is your PC waiting 30 seconds until everyone leaves the room to break down over it an unreasonable alteration to your ability to roleplay a character who cared about his dad? Particularly when ME1's 3 background choices were made without anything and ultimately had zero impact on the ending of ME1... It didn't matter whether Shep grew up an orphan in a slum on earth or on a ship with a mom and dad in space (and you have no idea in that game what they were like) or was captured as a slave in Mindoir. The choices resulted in 1 of 3 optional side quests... that's it, that's all. I really don't see how this is materially different from that... but obviously it was so much better done in ME1 for you. You say you understand limitation... but you want PASSIONATE simply because you want it. Passionate Ryder is outside the limitations of the game... He's not within the range of characters Bioware wrote into the game. Evil Ryder is also outside the limations of the game. You have a range of young, inexperienced Ryders to select from. The personality choices range from casual and easy-going to logical and professional. Exactly what the options indicate. Nothing says that an RPG has to offer every range of personality. TW3 only offers one type of personality... and yet, it's not criticized for lack of range. I want to roleplay a happy, go-lucky Geralt.. wah, wah, wah... His VA never says anything in a happy go-lucky way. Guess what... that's not a sin for that game... and NEITHER is not offer PASSIONATE a sin for this one. What does ME1's backgrounds have to do with anything? These are events that happened years before. Not days. Besides which, I would think Bioware would be interested in improving the gaming experience over the last decade, particularly after the railroaded ME3 experience. Damn right I want passionate because I want it. You think I'd want it because I DIDN'T want it? But you know what, bring on Evil Ryder too! I wouldn't play it, but I know people who would. Options for everyone! ANd I've played logical and professional Ryder. Not a whole hell of a lot of difference between that and casual, "passionate" Ryder. Heck, I'm not even sure the game was designed with rational Ryder at all! And I find it hilarious that wanting even a couple of passionate responses in moments where a passionate response would make sense is wanting "every range of personality" Hyperbole much? The Witcher? Sorry, Geralt has no power here. I don't like the Witcher games. Wanna know a big part of the reason why? Because I can't play Geralt as my character! You claim to want "options for everyone"... but that simply cannot be done without "every range of personality" because everyone wants to play a different personality. You're staking claim to the "emotional response" as being sadness... but what about anger? what about just collapsing and passing out? what about denial? - all are common emotional responses to news of a death. What about the player who wants to play an emotional Ryder who hated his dad... who might instead lash out angrily with "What, you think I cared about that a-hole?" TBH, I've seen a lot of people have the emotional response to hearing of a death as being "shock" (deer in the headlights)... detached and seemingly unemotional... particularly when surrounded by strangers (it's called maintaining a public face). They can break down later or become angry later... when they are left alone with their thoughts. My own mother reacted to the death of my father precisely that way. She spent two days robotically going through making all the arrangements and only broke down after the funeral was over... and she cared about my dad very, very much... never went out with anyone else for 40 years. Also, regardless of how you feel about Witcher games... TW3 is very commonly held up as the current gold standard for RPGs. That's why I used it as an example (personally, you know I don't like TW3 either... haven't played the other 2).
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Oct 11, 2017 0:42:38 GMT
In regard to Ryder not giving being emotive enough about their dad dying I just want to say that I am still annoyed that there wasn't even an option for a funeral for the man. It didn't have to be immediately after his death but they could done SOMETHING later in the game.
Also, MEA's tone is indeed everywhere. It's a fun and lighthearted game that's optimistic but also has genocidal Space Nazis that perform live dissections on salarians whose corpses we get to see.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 11, 2017 0:47:12 GMT
What does ME1's backgrounds have to do with anything? These are events that happened years before. Not days. Besides which, I would think Bioware would be interested in improving the gaming experience over the last decade, particularly after the railroaded ME3 experience. Damn right I want passionate because I want it. You think I'd want it because I DIDN'T want it? But you know what, bring on Evil Ryder too! I wouldn't play it, but I know people who would. Options for everyone! ANd I've played logical and professional Ryder. Not a whole hell of a lot of difference between that and casual, "passionate" Ryder. Heck, I'm not even sure the game was designed with rational Ryder at all! And I find it hilarious that wanting even a couple of passionate responses in moments where a passionate response would make sense is wanting "every range of personality" Hyperbole much? The Witcher? Sorry, Geralt has no power here. I don't like the Witcher games. Wanna know a big part of the reason why? Because I can't play Geralt as my character! You claim to want "options for everyone"... but that simply cannot be done without "every range of personality" because everyone wants to play a different personality. You're staking claim to the "emotional response" as being sadness... but what about anger? what about just collapsing and passing out? what about denial? - all are common emotional responses to news of a death. What about the player who wants to play an emotional Ryder who hated his dad... who might instead lash out angrily with "What, you think I cared about that a-hole?" TBH, I've seen a lot of people have the emotional response to hearing of a death as being "shock" (deer in the headlights)... detached and seemingly unemotional... particularly when surrounded by strangers (it's called maintaining a public face). They can break down later or become angry later... when they are left alone with their thoughts. My own mother reacted to the death of my father precisely that way. She spent two days robotically going through making all the arrangements and only broke down after the funeral was over... and she cared about my dad very, very much... never went out with anyone else for 40 years. Also, regardless of how you feel about Witcher games... TW3 is very commonly held up as the current gold standard for RPGs. That's why I used it as an example (personally, you know I don't like TW3 either... haven't played the other 2). I accept that we can't have every possible reaction. But why can't we have 3-4? Why only one? Why is wanting a choice the same as wanting everything? Why is wanting to role play as anything but a wise-cracking action hero being unreasonable? I posted earlier four very different reactions to the same emotional event in a recent Bioware game. It can be done.
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Post by Superhik on Oct 11, 2017 0:50:48 GMT
They've always been there, but open world tends to drag them to no end. When you look at it, both first two games of each series had them in abundance...but they were quickly done, so you didn't mind. Only rpgs that really have none are last two Shadowrun games. Most of the 'Additional Tasks" in ME:A are quickly done... Beer Run, for example, involves acquiring only 1 item. The longer ones (Aid Apex, for example) are clearly meant to be done over the entire course of the game... the items needed to fulfill the quest being encountered naturally along the way. One does not have to go out of their way to do them. They can generally be turned down by Ryder in the initial conversation... and, quite frankly, some personalities of Ryder would turn them down and other personalities of Ryder would not... so they serve as a roleplay tool in the game. Pass the peace pipe here, dude. Last time I was that...eh? I was never really that stoned. "Roleplay tool"...man, that's pure gold.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Oct 11, 2017 1:11:40 GMT
How is your PC waiting 30 seconds until everyone leaves the room to break down over it an unreasonable alteration to your ability to roleplay a character who cared about his dad? Particularly when ME1's 3 background choices were made without anything and ultimately had zero impact on the ending of ME1... It didn't matter whether Shep grew up an orphan in a slum on earth or on a ship with a mom and dad in space (and you have no idea in that game what they were like) or was captured as a slave in Mindoir. The choices resulted in 1 of 3 optional side quests... that's it, that's all. I really don't see how this is materially different from that... but obviously it was so much better done in ME1 for you. You say you understand limitation... but you want PASSIONATE simply because you want it. Passionate Ryder is outside the limitations of the game... He's not within the range of characters Bioware wrote into the game. Evil Ryder is also outside the limations of the game. You have a range of young, inexperienced Ryders to select from. The personality choices range from casual and easy-going to logical and professional. Exactly what the options indicate. Nothing says that an RPG has to offer every range of personality. TW3 only offers one type of personality... and yet, it's not criticized for lack of range. I want to roleplay a happy, go-lucky Geralt.. wah, wah, wah... His VA never says anything in a happy go-lucky way. Guess what... that's not a sin for that game... and NEITHER is not offer PASSIONATE a sin for this one. What does ME1's backgrounds have to do with anything? These are events that happened years before. Not days. Besides which, I would think Bioware would be interested in improving the gaming experience over the last decade, particularly after the railroaded ME3 experience. Damn right I want passionate because I want it. You think I'd want it because I DIDN'T want it? But you know what, bring on Evil Ryder too! I wouldn't play it, but I know people who would. Options for everyone! ANd I've played logical and professional Ryder. Not a whole hell of a lot of difference between that and casual, "passionate" Ryder. Heck, I'm not even sure the game was designed with rational Ryder at all!
And I find it hilarious that wanting even a couple of passionate responses in moments where a passionate response would make sense is wanting "every range of personality" Hyperbole much? The Witcher? Sorry, Geralt has no power here. I don't like the Witcher games. Wanna know a big part of the reason why? Because I can't play Geralt as my character! This is probably the biggest reason why I only two playthroughs of MEA while I have over a dozen for DAI and DAO. Ryder is a limited character whose dialogue options all feel samey for the most part and unlike Geralt, Ryder doesn't have an interesting personality or emotional depth to invest me in their story. Say what you will about Shepard and the flaws of the paragon and renegade system, but at least they gave two highly different archetypes to play while Ryder just feels the same no matter whether your logical, professional, emotional or causal.
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Post by clips7 on Oct 11, 2017 1:35:28 GMT
What does ME1's backgrounds have to do with anything? These are events that happened years before. Not days. Besides which, I would think Bioware would be interested in improving the gaming experience over the last decade, particularly after the railroaded ME3 experience. Damn right I want passionate because I want it. You think I'd want it because I DIDN'T want it? But you know what, bring on Evil Ryder too! I wouldn't play it, but I know people who would. Options for everyone! ANd I've played logical and professional Ryder. Not a whole hell of a lot of difference between that and casual, "passionate" Ryder. Heck, I'm not even sure the game was designed with rational Ryder at all!
And I find it hilarious that wanting even a couple of passionate responses in moments where a passionate response would make sense is wanting "every range of personality" Hyperbole much? The Witcher? Sorry, Geralt has no power here. I don't like the Witcher games. Wanna know a big part of the reason why? Because I can't play Geralt as my character! This is probably the biggest reason why I only two playthroughs of MEA while I have over a dozen for DAI and DAO. Ryder is a limited character whose dialogue options all feel samey for the most part and unlike Geralt, Ryder doesn't have an interesting personality or emotional depth to invest me in their story. Say what you will about Shepard and the flaws of the paragon and renegade system, but at least they gave two highly different archetypes to play while Ryder just feels the same no matter whether your logical, professional, emotional or causal. This....you can pick from 4 of those options within a conversation and they all feel similar in response and tone. Ryder seems like he doesn't have a single back-bone in his entire body even when he is trying to be stern or assertive.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Oct 11, 2017 3:05:23 GMT
This is probably the biggest reason why I only two playthroughs of MEA while I have over a dozen for DAI and DAO. Ryder is a limited character whose dialogue options all feel samey for the most part and unlike Geralt, Ryder doesn't have an interesting personality or emotional depth to invest me in their story. Say what you will about Shepard and the flaws of the paragon and renegade system, but at least they gave two highly different archetypes to play while Ryder just feels the same no matter whether your logical, professional, emotional or causal. This....you can pick from 4 of those options within a conversation and they all feel similar in response and tone. Ryder seems like he doesn't have a single back-bone in his entire body even when he is trying to be stern or assertive. Well, Ryder is supposed to be a 22 year old millenial whose completely unqualified for his/her job and only got it because of nepotism and being fused with a magic AI, so I guess it only makes sense that they'd be spineless.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 11, 2017 3:40:36 GMT
I've never really got this "spineless" meme.If anything, I kind of liked getting away from Shepard's bombast.
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Post by brfritos on Oct 11, 2017 4:33:37 GMT
Wait, are you suggesting the tonal inconsistency was intended? Sure. It's a thing, particularly in episodic television. It's harder to pull off in films; a good director can do it, but if you don't have the chops of a Demme or a Lynch, it can just be a mess. It's hard to conceive of the tones actually getting away from the writer by accident, since the Bio script outlines we've seen are written around the emotional beats Or it could be the change of writers after the game entered production. It was the lead writer btw, Chris Schlerf, not some intern. This kind of thing never ends good and although you have examples were the change benefited the story, you can count them with the fingers of one hand only.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 11, 2017 5:26:29 GMT
This....you can pick from 4 of those options within a conversation and they all feel similar in response and tone. Ryder seems like he doesn't have a single back-bone in his entire body even when he is trying to be stern or assertive. Well, Ryder is supposed to be a 22 year old millenial whose completely unqualified for his/her job and only got it because of nepotism and being fused with a magic AI, so I guess it only makes sense that they'd be spineless. so that'd be third millennium millennial or second? Trying to decide if Ryder is a time traveler or just really old.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Oct 11, 2017 5:46:53 GMT
Well, Ryder is supposed to be a 22 year old millenial whose completely unqualified for his/her job and only got it because of nepotism and being fused with a magic AI, so I guess it only makes sense that they'd be spineless. so that'd be third millennium millennial or second? Trying to decide if Ryder is a time traveler or just really old. Let's be honest and admit that almost everyone in the Mass Effect series sound and act like their from the 21st century instead of the 22nd. Peebee talking to Drack about superheroes is just one example of the writers not capable of writing characters that come from an entirely different time. That said, I think its rather blatant that Ryder's personality was supposed to appeal to millennials, which as I millennial find rather offensive because of just how many millennial stereotypes they had.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 11, 2017 5:49:55 GMT
so that'd be third millennium millennial or second? Trying to decide if Ryder is a time traveler or just really old. Let's be honest and admit that almost everyone in the Mass Effect series sound and act like their from the 21st century instead of the 22nd. Peebee talking to Drack about superheroes is just one example of the writers not capable of writing characters that come from an entirely different time. That said, I think its rather blatant that Ryder's personality was supposed to appeal to millennials, which as I millennial find rather offensive because of just how many millennial stereotypes they had. honestly that's been a staple of science fiction in pop culture for decades. I honestly didn't see any.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Oct 11, 2017 5:51:18 GMT
I've never really got this "spineless" meme.If anything, I kind of liked getting away from Shepard's bombast. Honestly, I think you have a point that it is kind of hyperbolic meme. That said, given that the game prevents you from seriously taking Liam or Peebee to task even though their fuckups are extraordinary, I think it still has merit as a criticism.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Oct 11, 2017 6:01:38 GMT
Let's be honest and admit that almost everyone in the Mass Effect series sound and act like their from the 21st century instead of the 22nd. Peebee talking to Drack about superheroes is just one example of the writers not capable of writing characters that come from an entirely different time. That said, I think its rather blatant that Ryder's personality was supposed to appeal to millennials, which as I millennial find rather offensive because of just how many millennial stereotypes they had. honestly that's been a staple of science fiction in pop culture for decades. I honestly didn't see any. I know and I hate it. The constant sarcasm, awkward jokes, and "I don't know what the hell I'm doing" moments. I know it was supposed to make me relate to them more but it felt forced in my opinion. The auto-dialogue constantly undercutting any attempt to play a serious-minded and professional Ryder didn't help either.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 9:21:00 GMT
It's not a bad idea, although the actual EC isn't very different from, say, the DA:O epilogue slides. Seems a bit expensive for a free DLC. I'm also not a huge fan of Shepard delivering a speech without player input, although arguably Shepard isn't the PC anymore in this epilogue. Again, the slides didn't match up with the narration in many instances, leaving them ambiguous and withouth context, in my eyes they don't feel appropriate to conclude a trilogy people invested so many hours in. I have to applaud Mass Effect Andromeda here it's epilogue, the format is exceptional and it was in every way rewarding to walk around and see the consequences of your decisions. As for being too expensive, you could always cut down the interactive part and just have Shepard's associates give consecutive speeches based on the decisions made in the trilogy, the key thing for me is that the ending should be continuous and take place in present time. I specfically wrote that Shepard should make a statement, not a speech, a brief monologue that sums up Shepard's decisions over the past three games. It doesn't have to be a oneliner, but two/three lines should do the trick. Not having the player directly input Shepard's statement signals that Shepard's time as protagonist in Mass Effect is over, it also wouldn't be that much of change considering the Shepard catalyst monologue in the Control ending is also without any direct input from the player.
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