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Post by river82 on Aug 31, 2017 6:50:31 GMT
Actually I said that video can present far more content in a shorter period of time (whether it's efficient has to do with the specific guy making the video,) and it does this by utilising visuals in many ways. If I were to demonstrate how the game does something poorly in text, I would first have to address what they did and then (after that) I would present why it was bad. You could use a few gifs here but if you were making many comparisons your review (or article) would end up looking like a Daily Mail article (often more pictures than text.) And what if it does? Why is looking like that a problem? The inefficiency comes in because I typically won't need to watch what's going on in the background. I've already seen it, right? Your argument seems to rely on comparing incompetent writing to competent video work. You mean reading two lines and scrolling down 3 pages worth of pictures to read two more lines and scroll down 3 more pages of pictures? Nothing at all ... if you like reading picture books. Concerning inefficiency, it doesn't matter if you've seen it, it needs to be introduced and addressed for those that haven't seen it or can't remember it. Which means the text article still needs to include it, and the video will still do this in a shorter period of time. How much scholarly writing have you done by the way? Cause we were always taught, and hammered, to include too much information rather than too little, and for presentations to talk as though the audience knew nothing. I have never seen writing taught the other way (less information is better.)
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 31, 2017 7:17:24 GMT
And what if it does? Why is looking like that a problem? The inefficiency comes in because I typically won't need to watch what's going on in the background. I've already seen it, right? Your argument seems to rely on comparing incompetent writing to competent video work. You mean reading two lines and scrolling down 3 pages worth of pictures to read two more lines and scroll down 3 more pages of pictures? Nothing at all ... if you like reading picture books. Picture books are better than not being able to read at all. (You didn't really think that line would work, did you?) Your example is also a bit preposterous. Hyperbole, right? I sometimes have trouble separating hyperbole from positions that are straight-up crazy. Like I said, a video clip -- assuming even that's necessary. The reader can play it if he needs it, and not play it if he doesn't. In a video presentation I need to sit through the scene whether I know it or not. Plenty, back in the day, plus a couple of decades working in legal and academic publishing. I was taught that irrelevant information is never good, and footnotes are where a lot of stuff belongs. In effect, footnotes are what the video channel of information is doing in that video you linked to start this mess. When the video channel is doing anything at all, that is. Most of the time it's just background pictures.
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Post by river82 on Aug 31, 2017 7:25:03 GMT
You mean reading two lines and scrolling down 3 pages worth of pictures to read two more lines and scroll down 3 more pages of pictures? Nothing at all ... if you like reading picture books. Picture books are better than not being able to read at all. (You didn't really think that line would work, did you?) Like I said, a video clip -- assuming even that's necessary. The reader can play it if he needs it, and not play it if he doesn't. In a video presentation I need to sit through the scene whether I know it or not. Plenty, back in the day. I was taught that irrelevant information is never good, and footnotes are where a lot of stuff belongs. I don't go for lines, it's what I genuinely think. I hate going to the Daily Mail because you can't get into a reading rhythm before being interrupted and jolted out of the article to do some massive scrolling. Ah, just checking. I would say irrelevant information and only presenting key points are different things though. Key points are what I like to build up to in an article, and I would present only key points in a summary. That being said I think we're going to have to agree to disagree in the end, or we're going to go round and round in circles for the next ten pages, and everybody will start chucking stuff at us
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 31, 2017 7:32:05 GMT
No more for me; it's past 3AM here, and even I sleep sometimes.
Note the edit above concerning footnotes. I actually found my attention drifting away from the screen when trying to watch that video. Most of the time there was nothing going on in the channel.
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Post by river82 on Aug 31, 2017 7:34:06 GMT
No more for me; it's past 3AM here, and even I sleep sometimes. Note the edit above concerning footnotes. I actually found my attention drifting away from the screen when trying to watch that video. Most of the time there was nothing going on in the channel. Rest easy, mate (video essays are tops )
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Post by JokeDealer on Aug 31, 2017 8:49:42 GMT
If I were to guess, I'd say that it's because half of the complaints on your list are subjective in nature. Bugs and animation glitches are more quantifiable. Some people enjoyed the squadmates in Andromeda and some didn't. Neither side is objectively correct or wrong because it's a difference of opinion, not fact. There is no ironclad definition of what constitutes a good story or proper pacing, so much of it is based on feeling instead of any sort of measurable criteria. In other words, some of the problems on your personal list were not problems for everyone who played the game. Regardless, I'll concede and admit that there are some issues that not everyone mentions, so I'll respond to your list. - Story: It greatly reminded me of the original Mass Effect and, since that game is my favorite of the trilogy, I enjoyed Andromeda as well.
- Story Pacing/Narrative: If there were pacing issues, I did not notice them. I played through the game once and I always took time to complete side missions or interact with my crew before advancing the main storyline. There were some sizable gaps in between main quests.
- Dull/Uninteresting Characters: There were a few duds in my opinion, but I wouldn't say that the entire lot of them were uninteresting. My crew was pretty awesome and I liked the leaders of the Andromeda Initiatives. They were all flawed and imperfect for their roles in their own way -- I liked that.
- Dull Open World: Aside from Eos, I enjoyed exploring each of the planets. Again, this played into my love of the original Mass Effect and I liked that. The Nomad also made traversing these planets so much more fun.
- Bad Side Quest Design: I didn't think it was that bad, but I wasn't happy with most of them. It was better than Inquisition's side quests, but nowhere near those of the Witcher 3. That game has ruined me in a lot of ways.
- Can't Control Squadmate Abilities: I did not like this. I prefered the old system better, but it didn't keep me from enjoying combat. More often than not, I was too busy fighting to really think too hard about tactics. Lack of a combat pause was likely the cause of that.
- Roleplaying Ryder: I liked Ryder and I had virtually no problem roleplaying him. He was far more easier to roleplay than Hawke in my opinion.
- Villain: There wasn't a very strong villain and I'll agree with that, but most recent Bioware games have lacked compelling or interesting main villains. The Illusive Man was an interesting character, but seemed like a letdown as a villain. Kai Leng was good for avenging Thane, but little else. Also, I thought Corypheus was bland. Honestly, I don't think Bioware has made a good villain since Loghain.
- Overuse of Jokes in Serious Situations: I caught some of this, but I'm the sort to laugh in difficult situations. I realize that I'm not exactly a normal person, but it didn't bother me. It was actually closer to what my true reaction would have been.
- The Asari Clone Army: I'm unsure what this is referring to, but, then again, I am awful at telling non-squadmate aliens apart from one another.
- 2 Andromeda vs 5 MW Races: I was actually bummed that there weren't any other Andromedans aside from the Kett and the Angarans. I wanted more and I didn't get it, but it didn't bother me as much as it likely bothered other people. It was only one cluster and Andromeda is bigger than the Milky Way. If there were other races, I expected to meet them in a sequel where we ventured into another cluster. In my opinion, finding five alien species in one cluster would have felt kind of cheap.
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Post by cypherj on Aug 31, 2017 10:19:04 GMT
The Darkspawn weren't you're main enemy though, Loghain, and also the Archdemon in the shadows were. The Darkspawn were just supposed to be the generic fodder enemy you beat up on. Same as in ME:1, Saren, Sovereign and the reapers were main enemy, the Geth, generic Krogan, etc were used as the fodder enemy. Saren was always one step ahead of you, you were chasing him all game. ME:2, the collectors destroyed the Normandy and killed you, so that the entire game they were built up as something bigger that you had to prepare yourself for, upgrade your ship, assemble a team. You never just dominated them, you snuck on their ships, and escaped once they found you were there. You didn;t overrun entire Collector ships and take them over. The game used mercs as the fodder enemy that you fought over and over and just killed in droves at every turn. ME:3 the altered races and husks were the fodder enemies, while reapers kept their air of invincibility the entire game, you had to pretty much an entire armada to kill the reaper you did kill. However, in ME:A, the Kett were never built up into the anything, they tried to use them as both fodder and main enemy and it didn't work because you had no reason to fear them because you dominated them the entire game until the story called for them to all of a sudden show their dominance and just take the Nexus. Up until then they were nothing. I mean a ragtag group of exiles kicked them completely off of a planet. For the Kett to have worked the Archon needed to be more actively involved in going against you, or the Kett needed a Saren type agent who was opposing you throughout the game, something to make them more than just fodder.
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Post by cypherj on Aug 31, 2017 10:26:01 GMT
One thing that stood out as bad and really bothered me more than it probably bothered other people was all the Asari looking alike. It wouldn't have bothered me as much if it was just the background models that you didn't interact with, but it was just ridiculous to have named characters who were supposed to be unique individuals looking the same. Lexi, Keri, the Asari Pathfinder, they shouldn't have been the same, it was just ridiculous.
This would have been like having Liara with her own model in ME:1, but Benezia, the Asari Counselor, Shiala, and the Asari consort all with the same face. It also just makes the game come across as half-assed.
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Post by abaris on Aug 31, 2017 10:55:54 GMT
I hate going to the Daily Mail because you can't get into a reading rhythm before being interrupted and jolted out of the article to do some massive scrolling. One might ask, why go to the Daily Mail at all?
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Post by Sondergaard on Aug 31, 2017 11:07:44 GMT
One thing that stood out as bad and really bothered me more than it probably bothered other people was all the Asari looking alike. It wouldn't have bothered me as much if it was just the background models that you didn't interact with, but it was just ridiculous to have named characters who were supposed to be unique individuals looking the same. Lexi, Keri, the Asari Pathfinder, they shouldn't have been the same, it was just ridiculous. This would have been like having Liara with her own model in ME:1, but Benezia, the Asari Counselor, Shiala, and the Asari consort all with the same face. It also just makes the game come across as half-assed. Don't worry. Someone will be along in a minute to tell you it's a non-issue that's been blown out of proportion and it didn't bother them so it shouldn't bother anybody else and all the asari were identical in the OT anyway and the turians and salarians are also identical so complaining about the asari is racist/sexist and they're aliens so how can you tell and you're just whinging because you don't get your blue space-babes and it was a deliberate decision by bioware etc, etc. And they'll be wrong.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 31, 2017 11:10:25 GMT
Time is irrelevant. The difference is effort, being that the viewer does not have to spend the few extra calories processing written words when a voice is dictating these thoughts to them. Not needing to process is kind of the problem. I know I've seen stuff in TED talks that would never fly as text. OTOH, that may be because TED talks are infotainment anyway. Yeah, but really my own problem is that I don't want to watch all these YouTube videos and hear all these people's annoying ass voices. I typically just skip over video responses as a result, especially if I'm reading the forum on my phone.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Aug 31, 2017 11:28:45 GMT
- Story-- There were several plots going on at once. Can you be more specific? - Uninteresting characters: Kallo was excellent The drack/Kesh dynamic was interesting, Jaal was interesting (outside of cutscenes), but yeah, they seemed to be "themed" characters rather than people. I agree. - Dull open world- Open Worlds can only be so interesting in a video game. Have you tried looking outside your window lately? - Bad side quest design-- Can you be more specific? I found that I actually wanted to do most of them, especially on Voeld. - Cant control squadmates combat abilities-- Maybe Bioware watched players like me NEVER control their abilties in the first place. Programable AI of DAO and DA2 is as much controlling as I ever want to do- Micromanage ONCE and forget it. And sadly, it's gone forever. - Ryder not as interesting/couldnt roleplay: Agree about lack of role play. On the fence about "not as interesting." I could agree with "not as badass." - Villain -- I totally hated the Archon. What was wrong with the villain? I wanted to smash him. Isn't that the Villain's job? Job accomplished. - Over use of jokes/humor in serious situations: I can only think of 2-3 times where there was inappropriate hilarity. I think at least one of them was optional. The Asari clone army- I could not give a fuck about this. I was more annoyed by another human having my hairstyle than I ever will be about Asari's looking alike. Or the fact that all of the Turian's look either bone white or someone had vomited green bile all over them. Salarian's and most Krogan looked alike too, but there is little or no urge to fuck them, so people aren't looking as closely. - Only 2 Andromeda races vs 5 MW races. - Yeah, I missed me some Drell and Quarians, but we got an entire new race from scratch (technically, new engine, EVERYTHING was from scratch) I ENJOYED MYSELF. I did not expect an epic sonnet, poetry, something life changing. RYDER IS NOT SHEPARD. And the sooner you stop expecting her/him to be Shepard, the sooner you can pluck out the silver linings of a solid game. *drops mic* Congrats, you're accepting any shit BioWare sells you.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Aug 31, 2017 11:30:27 GMT
Two observations: 1) The people who complain about suikoden , majesticjazz & Co religiously show up in threads posted by... Suikoden, Majesticjazz & Co. These people want to be outraged about anything, everything and won't let even the infinitesimally tiniest of criticisms stand unchallenged. You call it a troll? Starve it. Meanwhile the "Mass Effect Andromeda Positivity Thread" is chilling on page 2 and has not been updated in a week. Go "feed" it and let us "trolls" starve. Suikoden, Majesticjazz & Co beat dead horses because you The Outraged™ supply the dead horse. 2) The same people try to use "[Insert Whatever Here] is subjective" as a Thought-Terminating Cliche. They try to reduce complex discussions to simple personal feelings. Critical analysis of art, music, etc is older than dirt, ever since thumb fighting got 1.5 starfishes on PaleoCritic. Quality is objective because it can be measured, compared, and standardized. Your personal enjoyment is subjective because it can't be measured, compared, or standardized vis-à-vis someone else's personal enjoyment. Basically, if Suikoden, Majesticjazz & Co present evidence and/or proof that problems with ME:A go beyond animations your showing up to their posts to insult them and comment that you personally enjoyed that thing they criticize is " subjective, man" is not sufficient to negate their assertions just like this run on sentence over your dead horse. This deserves to be pinned for all the triggered snowflakes.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 31, 2017 12:37:16 GMT
Couldn't agree more with the OP. Many fanboys and Bioware shills, still believe the game didn't do well because of the outrage from fans. How about because maybe the game just isn't good? Admittedly, the game isn't terrible, a 6/10 on its best day, but those aren't the standards Bioware and AAA developers go for. So in those regards it's deemed as a failure. There just isn't a whole lot to talk about in Andromeda, nothing stands out but the combat, which in itself is flawed. Weak story, characters, villain, and setting, make this arguably one of the worst, if not, the worst game Bioware has ever done. I think that is the soul of my OP. The idea that many avid Bioware/MEA supporters has this innate belief that really nothing was wrong with the game outside of animations. Even to some, even nothing was even wrong with the animations. Just like you have people on one side blaming the failures of Bioware on SJWs. On the other side you have those blamming the idea of no DLC on a "loud minority" of fans who were always wanting to take down Bioware and MEA was just low hanging fruit for them. So yeah I agree. Many MEA fans have told themselves that outside of animations, MEA had all the makings of a standard AAA Bioware game which is not true. MEA was not standard Bioware quality cause if it were, it wouldnt be the lowest reviewed Bioware game ever and the 1st since ME1 to not get any SP DLC.
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Post by FluffyCannibal on Aug 31, 2017 12:50:26 GMT
So yeah I agree. Many MEA fans have told themselves that outside of animations, MEA had all the makings of a standard AAA Bioware game which is not true. MEA was not standard Bioware quality cause if it were, it wouldnt be the lowest reviewed Bioware game ever and the 1st since ME1 to not get any SP DLC. I don't think that this is necessarily true. Many people - here and elsewhere - have made the assumption that I don't think there's anything wrong with MEA, because I like it. But that's not true; there's plenty of things that I dislike about it and wish were better, but while they've lessened the enjoyment, it's not to a point where I'm not having fun anymore. Just because I think it's a good game overall, and just because I'll defend it, it doesn't mean I'm blind to it's faults.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Aug 31, 2017 12:59:04 GMT
Couldn't agree more with the OP. Many fanboys and Bioware shills, still believe the game didn't do well because of the outrage from fans. How about because maybe the game just isn't good? Admittedly, the game isn't terrible, a 6/10 on its best day, but those aren't the standards Bioware and AAA developers go for. So in those regards it's deemed as a failure. There just isn't a whole lot to talk about in Andromeda, nothing stands out but the combat, which in itself is flawed. Weak story, characters, villain, and setting, make this arguably one of the worst, if not, the worst game Bioware has ever done. I think that is the soul of my OP. The idea that many avid Bioware/MEA supporters has this innate belief that really nothing was wrong with the game outside of animations. Even to some, even nothing was even wrong with the animations. Just like you have people on one side blaming the failures of Bioware on SJWs. On the other side you have those blamming the idea of no DLC on a "loud minority" of fans who were always wanting to take down Bioware and MEA was just low hanging fruit for them. So yeah I agree. Many MEA fans have told themselves that outside of animations, MEA had all the makings of a standard AAA Bioware game which is not true. MEA was not standard Bioware quality cause if it were, it wouldnt be the lowest reviewed Bioware game ever and the 1st since ME1 to not get any SP DLC. Actually ME1 did get dlc with Bring Down The Sky and Pinnacle Station. Also, I don't understand this need of "my side has to be right and your side has to be wrong." Can't we just accept that there are people who like the game and people who don't? Instead of these round about arguments that lead to nowhere, except insults; from both sides of the aisle.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 31, 2017 13:02:05 GMT
If I were to guess, I'd say that it's because half of the complaints on your list are subjective in nature. Bugs and animation glitches are more quantifiable. Some people enjoyed the squadmates in Andromeda and some didn't. Neither side is objectively correct or wrong because it's a difference of opinion, not fact. There is no ironclad definition of what constitutes a good story or proper pacing, so much of it is based on feeling instead of any sort of measurable criteria. In other words, some of the problems on your personal list were not problems for everyone who played the game. Regardless, I'll concede and admit that there are some issues that not everyone mentions, so I'll respond to your list. - Story: It greatly reminded me of the original Mass Effect and, since that game is my favorite of the trilogy, I enjoyed Andromeda as well.
- Story Pacing/Narrative: If there were pacing issues, I did not notice them. I played through the game once and I always took time to complete side missions or interact with my crew before advancing the main storyline. There were some sizable gaps in between main quests.
- Dull/Uninteresting Characters: There were a few duds in my opinion, but I wouldn't say that the entire lot of them were uninteresting. My crew was pretty awesome and I liked the leaders of the Andromeda Initiatives. They were all flawed and imperfect for their roles in their own way -- I liked that.
- Dull Open World: Aside from Eos, I enjoyed exploring each of the planets. Again, this played into my love of the original Mass Effect and I liked that. The Nomad also made traversing these planets so much more fun.
- Bad Side Quest Design: I didn't think it was that bad, but I wasn't happy with most of them. It was better than Inquisition's side quests, but nowhere near those of the Witcher 3. That game has ruined me in a lot of ways.
- Can't Control Squadmate Abilities: I did not like this. I prefered the old system better, but it didn't keep me from enjoying combat. More often than not, I was too busy fighting to really think too hard about tactics. Lack of a combat pause was likely the cause of that.
- Roleplaying Ryder: I liked Ryder and I had virtually no problem roleplaying him. He was far more easier to roleplay than Hawke in my opinion.
- Villain: There wasn't a very strong villain and I'll agree with that, but most recent Bioware games have lacked compelling or interesting main villains. The Illusive Man was an interesting character, but seemed like a letdown as a villain. Kai Leng was good for avenging Thane, but little else. Also, I thought Corypheus was bland. Honestly, I don't think Bioware has made a good villain since Loghain.
- Overuse of Jokes in Serious Situations: I caught some of this, but I'm the sort to laugh in difficult situations. I realize that I'm not exactly a normal person, but it didn't bother me. It was actually closer to what my true reaction would have been.
- The Asari Clone Army: I'm unsure what this is referring to, but, then again, I am awful at telling non-squadmate aliens apart from one another.
- 2 Andromeda vs 5 MW Races: I was actually bummed that there weren't any other Andromedans aside from the Kett and the Angarans. I wanted more and I didn't get it, but it didn't bother me as much as it likely bothered other people. It was only one cluster and Andromeda is bigger than the Milky Way. If there were other races, I expected to meet them in a sequel where we ventured into another cluster. In my opinion, finding five alien species in one cluster would have felt kind of cheap.
I think people are now using this, "your argument is subjective..." defense as a crutch. While that may be true, to the consumer, it is their reality and thus fact. So if a player decides to stop playing MEA cause to them the story sucked, EA could careless if it is subjective or not, all they see is the player base dropping off due to many reasons. Same goes for people who flat out choose not to buy based on reviews full of subjective reasons. To EA they could careless if a review is subjective or not, all they care about is how will that review sway a potential buyer one way or another. And if reviews have proved to affect sales, then that is the reality for EA With that being said, at the end of the day EA and Bioware does not care about subjective arguments vs non subjective. They care about sales and an active player base. If those subjective opinions are affecting the sales and active player base (which could effect MP) then that is the reality. So when I say the story sucked, yes that is my opnion and yes it is subjective. But if a great number of people share my same view to the point where it becomes very vocal and effectd sales, actice player base, and perception....it becomes a problem for EA and Bioware and should be addressed going forward with sequels and other SP games like DA4. Bioware not going to say, "Fans criticisms of story and villain are subjective....so we will ignore these complaints and not address them in future projects."
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 31, 2017 14:16:44 GMT
The Darkspawn weren't you're main enemy though, Loghain, and also the Archdemon in the shadows were. The Darkspawn were just supposed to be the generic fodder enemy you beat up on. Same as in ME:1, Saren, Sovereign and the reapers were main enemy, the Geth, generic Krogan, etc were used as the fodder enemy. Saren was always one step ahead of you, you were chasing him all game. ME:2, the collectors destroyed the Normandy and killed you, so that the entire game they were built up as something bigger that you had to prepare yourself for, upgrade your ship, assemble a team. You never just dominated them, you snuck on their ships, and escaped once they found you were there. You didn;t overrun entire Collector ships and take them over. The game used mercs as the fodder enemy that you fought over and over and just killed in droves at every turn. ME:3 the altered races and husks were the fodder enemies, while reapers kept their air of invincibility the entire game, you had to pretty much an entire armada to kill the reaper you did kill. However, in ME:A, the Kett were never built up into the anything, they tried to use them as both fodder and main enemy and it didn't work because you had no reason to fear them because you dominated them the entire game until the story called for them to all of a sudden show their dominance and just take the Nexus. Up until then they were nothing. I mean a ragtag group of exiles kicked them completely off of a planet. For the Kett to have worked the Archon needed to be more actively involved in going against you, or the Kett needed a Saren type agent who was opposing you throughout the game, something to make them more than just fodder. Sure the Darkspawn were the main enemy. They were the only reason Howe had an opportunity to sack Highever castle, and the only reason Loghain was able to assume position of Regent. Beyond a couple of unsuccessful attempts by people seeking bounties or the elven slave deal in the alienage (some of which was Howe's doing), Loghain himself didn't do much to get in the Warden's way. Heck sometimes the only reason we saw Loghain at all was for cutscenes the Warden wasn't even present for. The PC never sees him beyond Ostagar and the Landsmeet. Ser Cauthrien and her men was his most powerful hand to play.
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Post by cypherj on Aug 31, 2017 14:30:32 GMT
The Darkspawn weren't you're main enemy though, Loghain, and also the Archdemon in the shadows were. The Darkspawn were just supposed to be the generic fodder enemy you beat up on. Same as in ME:1, Saren, Sovereign and the reapers were main enemy, the Geth, generic Krogan, etc were used as the fodder enemy. Saren was always one step ahead of you, you were chasing him all game. ME:2, the collectors destroyed the Normandy and killed you, so that the entire game they were built up as something bigger that you had to prepare yourself for, upgrade your ship, assemble a team. You never just dominated them, you snuck on their ships, and escaped once they found you were there. You didn;t overrun entire Collector ships and take them over. The game used mercs as the fodder enemy that you fought over and over and just killed in droves at every turn. ME:3 the altered races and husks were the fodder enemies, while reapers kept their air of invincibility the entire game, you had to pretty much an entire armada to kill the reaper you did kill. However, in ME:A, the Kett were never built up into the anything, they tried to use them as both fodder and main enemy and it didn't work because you had no reason to fear them because you dominated them the entire game until the story called for them to all of a sudden show their dominance and just take the Nexus. Up until then they were nothing. I mean a ragtag group of exiles kicked them completely off of a planet. For the Kett to have worked the Archon needed to be more actively involved in going against you, or the Kett needed a Saren type agent who was opposing you throughout the game, something to make them more than just fodder. Sure the Darkspawn were the main enemy. They were the only reason Howe had an opportunity to sack Highever castle, and the only reason Loghain was able to assume position of Regent. Beyond a couple of unsuccessful attempts by people seeking bounties or the elven slave deal in the alienage (some of which was Howe's doing), Loghain himself didn't do much to get in the Warden's way. Ser Cauthrien and her men was his most powerful hand to play. Darkspawn were the fodder enemy, they were not the main enemy. Loghain was the one who left you and the king to die, discredited you and the Wardens and put bounties on your head. Loghain was the one who assumed power so that you had to build your little coalition to face at the end of the game and insert a new leader. Loghan was the one who had Eamon poisoned. Loghain was the one standing in your way because he wouldn't take seriously the idea that a blight was coming and an Archdemon would appear. He was your obstacle in fulfilling your duties of using the treaties to bring everyone together to stop the blight and ultimately the archdemon at the end. Had he not been there, you never become the Warden and the game would have went from Ostagar directly the end with Cailan & Duncan. Darkspawn played no role as an antagonist or advancing the story, they were just there to kill. Who were the Darkspawn leaders, their main characters, the ones plotting against you, what plans or schemes were they hatching against you?
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 31, 2017 14:35:25 GMT
Sure the Darkspawn were the main enemy. They were the only reason Howe had an opportunity to sack Highever castle, and the only reason Loghain was able to assume position of Regent. Beyond a couple of unsuccessful attempts by people seeking bounties or the elven slave deal in the alienage (some of which was Howe's doing), Loghain himself didn't do much to get in the Warden's way. Ser Cauthrien and her men was his most powerful hand to play. Darkspawn were the fodder enemy, they were not the main enemy. Loghain was the one who left you and the king to die, discredited you and the Wardens and put bounties on your head. Loghain was the one who assumed power so that you had to build your little coalition to face at the end of the game and insert a new leader. Loghan was the one who had Eamon poisoned. Loghain was the one standing in your way because he wouldn't take seriously the idea that a blight was coming and an Archdemon would appear. He was your obstacle in fulfilling your duties of using the treaties to bring everyone together to stop the blight and ultimately the archdemon at the end. Had he not been there, you never become the Warden and the game would have went from Ostagar directly the end with Cailan & Duncan. Darkspawn played no role as an antagonist or advancing the story, they were just there to kill. Who were the Darkspawn leaders, their main characters, the ones plotting against you, what plans or schemes were they hatching against you? That's like saying the Reapers weren't the main enemy.
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Aug 31, 2017 14:43:13 GMT
Darkspawn were the fodder enemy, they were not the main enemy. Loghain was the one who left you and the king to die, discredited you and the Wardens and put bounties on your head. Loghain was the one who assumed power so that you had to build your little coalition to face at the end of the game and insert a new leader. Loghan was the one who had Eamon poisoned. Loghain was the one standing in your way because he wouldn't take seriously the idea that a blight was coming and an Archdemon would appear. He was your obstacle in fulfilling your duties of using the treaties to bring everyone together to stop the blight and ultimately the archdemon at the end. Had he not been there, you never become the Warden and the game would have went from Ostagar directly the end with Cailan & Duncan. Darkspawn played no role as an antagonist or advancing the story, they were just there to kill. Who were the Darkspawn leaders, their main characters, the ones plotting against you, what plans or schemes were they hatching against you? That's like saying the Reapers weren't the main enemy. Not it's not. Sovereign was in control of everything, controlling Saren, and Saren was controlling the Geth. Reapers were behind the Collectors. Reapers ultimately assimilated races and used them against your in the last game. They were in charge from the start. Reapers were pulling all the strings from before the OT even started. What strings were Darkspawn pulling, what specific things did they during the game to obstruct you other than mindlessly attacking you. Saying Darkspawn were the main enemy in DA is like saying Orcs were the main enemy in LOTR ahead of Sauron and Sauraman.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 31, 2017 16:34:41 GMT
The Reapers and the Darkspawn are one of the main enemies of the game and is the reason why the protagonist are driven to action.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 31, 2017 16:52:27 GMT
That's like saying the Reapers weren't the main enemy. Not it's not. Sovereign was in control of everything, controlling Saren, and Saren was controlling the Geth. Reapers were behind the Collectors. Reapers ultimately assimilated races and used them against your in the last game. They were in charge from the start. Reapers were pulling all the strings from before the OT even started. What strings were Darkspawn pulling, what specific things did they during the game to obstruct you other than mindlessly attacking you. Saying Darkspawn were the main enemy in DA is like saying Orcs were the main enemy in LOTR ahead of Sauron and Sauraman. Thing is, Loghain doesn't drive the story forward like, say, the Reapers, the Darkspawn or Sauron do, the last of which is actually the source of the entire conflict to begin with. Granted, he makes the overall journey more interesting, as does Howe, but if you removed him from the equation, the primary conflict would be largely the same. The faction gathering portion of the game doesn't even involve him, since the civil war (which we really see little of in our travels) is of no concern to the mages/Templars, the dalish or the Orzammar dwarves.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 31, 2017 17:02:30 GMT
The Reapers and the Darkspawn are one of the main enemies of the game and is the reason why the protagonist are driven to action. This is actually another problem with DA:O. Why does the Blight drive the protagonist to action? A Dalish Elf could reasonably believe that this just isn't his problem -- in fact, his clan escapes the Blight handily -- and for a dwarf, fighting darkspawn is Tuesday. While all three backgrounds give the PC a plausible reason to utilize Warden status instrumentally -- it's the best shot a dwarf commoner has at real power, for instance -- it's not at all obvious why many PCs would care about the whole business. ME can't have such issues because Shepard and Ryder have already made those choices before the game starts.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 31, 2017 17:12:02 GMT
The Reapers and the Darkspawn are one of the main enemies of the game and is the reason why the protagonist are driven to action. This is actually another problem with DA:O. Why does the Blight drive the protagonist to action? A Dalish Elf could reasonably believe that this just isn't his problem -- in fact, his clan escapes the Blight handily -- and for a dwarf, fighting darkspawn is Tuesday. While all three backgrounds give the PC a plausible reason to utilize Warden status instrumentally -- it's the best shot a dwarf commoner has at real power, for instance -- it's not at all obvious why many PCs would care about the whole business. ME can't have such issues because Shepard and Ryder have already made those choices before the game starts. For my human noble, it felt more like a revenge tale.
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