Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2017 16:02:31 GMT
But how Ryder expressing those feelings is. And without an option to express grief (aside form just saying "I feel sad") kinda hurts roleplaying a reaction to what, for most people, would be a hugely traumatic event whcih should have a lot of options available, given people react to trauma in different ways. It's Shepard's ME2 death all over again. Sure. I'm just pointing out that the problem isn't with Ryder's emotional state per se, but with playing a Ryder who would emote a lot about that emotional state. And emote about it to random people; we've seen plenty of complaints about the conversation with Addison, but a large majority of Ryders I might theoretically play would go with cool professionalism there even if other options were available. We're not directing a play here. I don't need to sell Ryder's grief to people sitting in the upper balconies. Aren't we? For years Bioware has more and more been embracing the "cinematic" aspects of gaming. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it does carry certain requirements that other types of gaming don't have. Such as believable expressions and reactions. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 16:53:46 GMT
Sure. I'm just pointing out that the problem isn't with Ryder's emotional state per se, but with playing a Ryder who would emote a lot about that emotional state. And emote about it to random people; we've seen plenty of complaints about the conversation with Addison, but a large majority of Ryders I might theoretically play would go with cool professionalism there even if other options were available. We're not directing a play here. I don't need to sell Ryder's grief to people sitting in the upper balconies. Aren't we? For years Bioware has more and more been embracing the "cinematic" aspects of gaming. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it does carry certain requirements that other types of gaming don't have. Such as believable expressions and reactions. Can't the player, if they want an emotive PC, just imagine Ryder crying his/her eyes out over it during the time it takes to get back to the Nexus? There is a whole shitload of time there that's "off camera." As for believable expressions in the scene itself, the face of my Ryder;s all look quite pained at the news. It's the other side of the coin I was miffed about there being no option to not ask the question at all. Ryder saw his/her dad dying and knew it was inevitable before losing consciousness himself/herself. |
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2017 17:09:29 GMT
Aren't we? For years Bioware has more and more been embracing the "cinematic" aspects of gaming. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it does carry certain requirements that other types of gaming don't have. Such as believable expressions and reactions. Can't the player, if they want an emotive PC, just imagine Ryder crying his/her eyes out over it during the time it takes to get back to the Nexus? There is a whole shitload of time there that's "off camera." As for believable expressions in the scene itself, the face of my Ryder;s all look quite pained at the news. It's the other side of the coin I was miffed about there being no option to not ask the question at all. Ryder saw his/her dad dying and knew it was inevitable before losing consciousness himself/herself. If a player wants an emotive PC, shouldn't they have the option to...Oh, dunno, emote? And by the same token, a stoic PC should be available to shrug such things off. As a cinematic experience, this stuff is expected to be on-screen, not off. Heck, we're getting scenes of the PC actually having sex with the LI. If that's acceptable, I'd think showing a little emotion towards a dead father, even if he was distant, wouldn't be that inappropriate. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 17:14:45 GMT
Investigate options don't offer choices... they are the info dumps. Having to click on repeated "investigate" option tags just to get an assignment or backstory is just an annoyance... not great design. I'm glad they're being relegated to the autodialogue. Agreed, with a couple of caveats. First, some investigate options have genuine RP value. A question deliberately not asked is a role-playing action in the same sense that a deliberately skipped sidequest is a role-playing action. Second, investigate options are a good place to hide dopey questions that the PC shouldn't really be asking, but a new player might need to hear the answers to. I think ME:A handled most of the "new player" backstory questions in better ways than using a lot of investigate options. There should be a maximum of 1 investigate icon in any single conversation and that should trigger the entire block of information at once. The player should never have to go back time and again to select another "branch" to get another tiny tidbit of info like pulling teeth. I absolutely hated the conversation set up with Tann initially. Setting them up that way invariably causes the conversation to become circular with repeated facts being stated. I also find overhearing NPCs talking with each other to be a much better method, IMO. Players who don't want to hear the info then can just keep walking by. It also works well for assignments. I have no problem with Ryder just never stopping to ask Nilken's wife what the trouble is if I don't want to trigger that quest. The only thing wrong with some of those sorts of side quests is, if the player does decide to stop and inquire, there should always be three clear options - 1) accept the quest; 2) defer the quest to later AND 3) turn it down definitively. If the first is selected, the quest goes into the player's journal' if the second is selected the NPC stops babbling, but the player has the option of triggering the NPC to then accept the quest; and if the last is selected, that quest is permanently closed without appearing in the players journal. The only issue I had with ME3 was that the quest would trigger regardless of whether or not Shepard stopped to offer assistance. The "questions" deliberately not asked are not what it would categorize "investigate" options. That is, I would not denote them in the conversation with the term "investigate" but go to directly describing the question to be asked as the option. Using the "investigate" option label just adds an extra click for no purpose. Any decision dialogue involves the inverse of deciding not to say the other options offered. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 17:18:59 GMT
Can't the player, if they want an emotive PC, just imagine Ryder crying his/her eyes out over it during the time it takes to get back to the Nexus? There is a whole shitload of time there that's "off camera." As for believable expressions in the scene itself, the face of my Ryder;s all look quite pained at the news. It's the other side of the coin I was miffed about there being no option to not ask the question at all. Ryder saw his/her dad dying and knew it was inevitable before losing consciousness himself/herself. If a player wants an emotive PC, shouldn't they have the option to...Oh, dunno, emote? And by the same token, a stoic PC should be available to shrug such things off. As a cinematic experience, this stuff is expected to be on-screen, not off. Heck, we're getting scenes of the PC actually having sex with the LI. If that's acceptable, I'd think showing a little emotion towards a dead father, even if he was distant, wouldn't be that inappropriate. You're just belaboring that single scene to be petty really. Not having the scene in the game in no way impedes you from imagining your character to be emotive. You're also thinking I would be upset if they didn't have the sex scenes... Well, I would prefer it, actually. A tasteful fade to black where I can imagine what is said and done between the romancing parties actually works the best for me... in games AND in movies. Remember I grew up when things were far less explicit overall... and I'd go back to those days in a heartbeat. |
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2017 17:26:35 GMT
If a player wants an emotive PC, shouldn't they have the option to...Oh, dunno, emote? And by the same token, a stoic PC should be available to shrug such things off. As a cinematic experience, this stuff is expected to be on-screen, not off. Heck, we're getting scenes of the PC actually having sex with the LI. If that's acceptable, I'd think showing a little emotion towards a dead father, even if he was distant, wouldn't be that inappropriate. Not having the scene in the game in no way impedes you from imagining your character to be emotive. You're also thinking I would be upset if they didn't have the sex scenes... Well, I would prefer it, actually. A tasteful fade to black where I can imagine what is said and done between the romancing parties actually works the best for me... in games AND in movies. Remember I grew up when things were far less explicit overall... and I'd go back to those days in a heartbeat. Not really. It's just the most obvious. Overall I found the differences in the four stances to be pretty minor overall. It's one of the things I'd definitely point to in the question 'What did DAI do better than MEA?" And I'd say it does impede you from ROLE-PLAYING your character. Or at least role-playing your character well. And while I agree that the sex scenes were tasteless and unnecessary, it again goes to demonstrate that if they really wanted to add more optional, emotionally charged scenes, they could do it. |
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 18, 2017 17:33:41 GMT
Can't the player, if they want an emotive PC, just imagine Ryder crying his/her eyes out over it during the time it takes to get back to the Nexus? There is a whole shitload of time there that's "off camera." As for believable expressions in the scene itself, the face of my Ryder;s all look quite pained at the news. It's the other side of the coin I was miffed about there being no option to not ask the question at all. Ryder saw his/her dad dying and knew it was inevitable before losing consciousness himself/herself. If a player wants an emotive PC, shouldn't they have the option to...Oh, dunno, emote? And by the same token, a stoic PC should be available to shrug such things off. As a cinematic experience, this stuff is expected to be on-screen, not off. Heck, we're getting scenes of the PC actually having sex with the LI. If that's acceptable, I'd think showing a little emotion towards a dead father, even if he was distant, wouldn't be that inappropriate. Part of RP is to make the character your own and that includes emotion. However that is very hard to do in a game setting. Giving the player every range of possible options is very hard to do, both from a logistical and cost basis. |
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 18, 2017 17:39:50 GMT
Sure. I'm just pointing out that the problem isn't with Ryder's emotional state per se, but with playing a Ryder who would emote a lot about that emotional state. And emote about it to random people; we've seen plenty of complaints about the conversation with Addison, but a large majority of Ryders I might theoretically play would go with cool professionalism there even if other options were available. We're not directing a play here. I don't need to sell Ryder's grief to people sitting in the upper balconies. Aren't we? For years Bioware has more and more been embracing the "cinematic" aspects of gaming. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it does carry certain requirements that other types of gaming don't have. Such as believable expressions and reactions. We've done this before, haven't we? Sure, the games are cinematic, but I don't see us as either directors or scriptwriters of those movies. You do, but this is just a restatement of the fundamental incompatibility in our approaches to gameplay. |
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2017 17:43:08 GMT
Aren't we? For years Bioware has more and more been embracing the "cinematic" aspects of gaming. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it does carry certain requirements that other types of gaming don't have. Such as believable expressions and reactions. We've done this before, haven't we? Sure, the games are cinematic, but I don't see us as either directors or scriptwriters of those movies. You do, but this is just a restatement of the fundamental incompatibility in our approaches to gameplay. Then what's the point of giving players options at all? What's the difference between Mass Effect and Halo? |
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2017 17:43:54 GMT
If a player wants an emotive PC, shouldn't they have the option to...Oh, dunno, emote? And by the same token, a stoic PC should be available to shrug such things off. As a cinematic experience, this stuff is expected to be on-screen, not off. Heck, we're getting scenes of the PC actually having sex with the LI. If that's acceptable, I'd think showing a little emotion towards a dead father, even if he was distant, wouldn't be that inappropriate. Part of RP is to make the character your own and that includes emotion. However that is very hard to do in a game setting. Giving the player every range of possible options is very hard to do, both from a logistical and cost basis. Sure. As a video game, we have to accept that there are limits to what can be done. But I still hold that it could be, and in fact has been done better. |
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Post by Sondergaard on Sept 18, 2017 17:46:03 GMT
If a player wants an emotive PC, shouldn't they have the option to...Oh, dunno, emote? And by the same token, a stoic PC should be available to shrug such things off. As a cinematic experience, this stuff is expected to be on-screen, not off. Heck, we're getting scenes of the PC actually having sex with the LI. If that's acceptable, I'd think showing a little emotion towards a dead father, even if he was distant, wouldn't be that inappropriate. Part of RP is to make the character your own and that includes emotion. However that is very hard to do in a game setting. Giving the player every range of possible options is very hard to do, both from a logistical and cost basis. I don't think being upset at a parent's death falls under 'every range of possible options'. Laughing hysterically or bursting into song might, but not grief. But hey, pretty good banging, amirite? |
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Sept 18, 2017 17:46:42 GMT
You're just belaboring that single scene to be petty really. Not having the scene in the game in no way impedes you from imagining your character to be emotive. You're also thinking I would be upset if they didn't have the sex scenes... Well, I would prefer it, actually. A tasteful fade to black where I can imagine what is said and done between the romancing parties actually works the best for me... in games AND in movies. Remember I grew up when things were far less explicit overall... and I'd go back to those days in a heartbeat. Not really. It's just the most obvious. Overall I found the differences in the four stances to be pretty minor overall. It's one of the things I'd definitely point to in the question 'What did DAI do better than MEA?" And I'd say it does impede you from ROLE-PLAYING your character. Or at least role-playing your character well. And while I agree that the sex scenes were tasteless and unnecessary, it again goes to demonstrate that if they really wanted to add more optional, emotionally charged scenes, they could do it. I repeated the quote because I'm lazy, and the bolded was important. It is a significant scene. It should be handled on camera. |
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 18, 2017 17:56:29 GMT
Can't the player, if they want an emotive PC, just imagine Ryder crying his/her eyes out over it during the time it takes to get back to the Nexus? There is a whole shitload of time there that's "off camera." As for believable expressions in the scene itself, the face of my Ryder;s all look quite pained at the news. It's the other side of the coin I was miffed about there being no option to not ask the question at all. Ryder saw his/her dad dying and knew it was inevitable before losing consciousness himself/herself. If a player wants an emotive PC, shouldn't they have the option to...Oh, dunno, emote? And by the same token, a stoic PC should be available to shrug such things off. As a cinematic experience, this stuff is expected to be on-screen, not off. Heck, we're getting scenes of the PC actually having sex with the LI. If that's acceptable, I'd think showing a little emotion towards a dead father, even if he was distant, wouldn't be that inappropriate. As griffith82 points out, this is fundamentally a resource question. Ryder getting all weepy over Alec's death, or whatever we're talking about, didn't make the cut. Maybe it should have. (For me personally, this option would have come in fairly far down the list of things to throw more wordcount into, but that's just my tastes.) This will come up with any design (without a fantasy budget) as long as the range of character types we're permitted to play remains large. I actually was more annoyed with the trilogy's handling of this sort of thing. Shepard's often forced into histrionics which I would have bypassed had the option been available. In both cases, though, my aggravation level with the design was fairly low, only spiking when the forced lines were stupid as well as tonally suboptimal. |
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 18, 2017 18:04:35 GMT
We've done this before, haven't we? Sure, the games are cinematic, but I don't see us as either directors or scriptwriters of those movies. You do, but this is just a restatement of the fundamental incompatibility in our approaches to gameplay. Then what's the point of giving players options at all? What's the difference between Mass Effect and Halo? To play the character, of course. |
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2017 18:06:41 GMT
Then what's the point of giving players options at all? What's the difference between Mass Effect and Halo? To play the character, of course. You're going to have to expand on that. |
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Sept 18, 2017 18:07:19 GMT
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 18, 2017 18:12:20 GMT
To play the character, of course. You're going to have to expand on that. The movie analogy is breaking down at this point. I suppose the best way to keep it going would be to call it improvisational acting. Like a Christopher Guest mockumentary, or some mumblecore films. I'm responsible for my character, and that's it. Or we switch metaphors. It's a PnP RPG, and I'm not the GM. |
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2017 18:21:20 GMT
You're going to have to expand on that. The movie analogy is breaking down at this point. I suppose the best way to keep it going would be to call it improvisational acting. Like a Christopher Guest mockumentary, or some mumblecore films. I'm responsible for my character, and that's it. Or we switch metaphors. It's a PnP RPG, and I'm not the GM. You're not the GM, but you are a player. I, as a player, should be able to play my character how I see fit (within reason, of course) But of course, in Halo, you get zero input on how Master Chief is played. You simply point and fire the weapon. |
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Post by vonuber on Sept 18, 2017 18:37:13 GMT
You're not the GM, but you are a player. I, as a player, should be able to play my character how I see fit (within reason, of course) Why? If that's what you want then there is pen and paper RPG. |
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2017 18:39:29 GMT
You're not the GM, but you are a player. I, as a player, should be able to play my character how I see fit (within reason, of course) Why? If that's what you want then there is pen and paper RPG. Judging by your avatar, let me ask you this: What would Life is Strange have been like without the ability to control Max's dialogue and choices? |
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Post by mmoblitz on Sept 18, 2017 18:43:29 GMT
That's a good one, given that you just made a ludicrous comparison between entertainment media and jury duty. If entertainment doesn't grab you within an hour or so, chances are, it never will. Good for you, if it did. But that in itself does nothing for people having found the game to be a bland experience. I'm somewhere in the middle. Finished it once but have no desire for a second helping. But to say, someone has to go through hours of utter boredom to come to the conclusion, they don't like what's on offer, is ridiculous. I wouldn't waste my time on something I dislike either. Especially when it's supposed to be entertainment. If I followed that logic I never would have gotten past Taris in KOTOR or Prague and the Citadel in KOTOR2. You can't give a game like this a brief try and decide. Maybe you can't, but others can. If a game doesn't grab me in the first few hours, it's not going to. That is a fact, not an opinion. I did finish the game, but only because my eldest daughter bought it for me as an early Christmas gift, I played the demo before that and realized it wasn't for me. I had no plans on buying the game unless they revamped the dialog system, give me new characters, and rewrite the story. None of that was going to happen. If they ever bring it back i hope it's with new characters, different location, less emphasis on open world, combat, world building, and more on story, characters, and dialog. I never had a problem getting into DAO, DA2, or the OT. All of those grabbed me within the first few hours. MEA left me wanting it to just be over. I skipped as much as I could so I could just finish it. I have never felt so disconnected from a character I was playing in a Bioware game before. I thought DAI was bad, but this was even worse for me. |
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Post by vonuber on Sept 18, 2017 19:24:52 GMT
Why? If that's what you want then there is pen and paper RPG. Judging by your avatar, let me ask you this: What would Life is Strange have been like without the ability to control Max's dialogue and choices? A film? My point is I can only do it within the narrow confines set by the developer. I roleplay a Max they have predefined; I play a Shepard who is predefined, and I play a Ryder who is predefined. |
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2017 19:49:40 GMT
Judging by your avatar, let me ask you this: What would Life is Strange have been like without the ability to control Max's dialogue and choices? A film? My point is I can only do it within the narrow confines set by the developer. I roleplay a Max they have predefined; I play a Shepard who is predefined, and I play a Ryder who is predefined. A film, but not a game. But "predefined" is a flexible term. Max has a predefined past, and to a large extent personality. But you can have her make radically different decisions, show different emotions, in essence, be a different person. We are, of course confined to some extent. But that confinement should never bee too restrictive. |
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August 2016
themikefest
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Post by themikefest on Sept 18, 2017 20:08:24 GMT
I would have liked the option for Ryder to ask if he/she can see dad's body? If not, at least a casket. I'm still curious why Carlyle would say like a hero instead of giving a straight answer when asked how Alec died.
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colfoley
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Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
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Post by colfoley on Sept 18, 2017 20:22:50 GMT
Well I am a Biodrone, or at the very least, probably what you would call one. I love BioWare, they are my favorite game company and I think they usually create video games that are at least really fun, or transformative in some way. My life is much better for having BioWare in my life then not, and this includes from Andromeda. I have learned a lot from the game and think its really good, though not their best. And again, as someone who loves BioWare games and someone who really loved Andromeda your post was directed specifically at me, or at least so I thought which is why I commented. And while I find romances in BioWare games to be a delightful addition to the games, but they aren't the main point in BioWare games, they aren't the main point in why I love BioWare games, and I find the comment that 'BioWare has focused on romances to the exclusion of gameplay (maybe even story?)' to be vague and unhelpful to the point of uselessness. I mean sure, that is clearly an opinion people have, but its one that is so far out of my experience and that no one has yet explained why they feel this way (at least I have not seen a post like this) that I do not understand the point. Its just a point made in the wind. My reaction when someone just makes an opinion, like that, without giving reasons, is 'annnnddd'?. I can understand a lot of the criticisms of Andromeda even if I disagree with it, like the weakness of the game as an RPG, but that...anyways... If you consider yourself as one, then fine by me, you said it yourself. Oh, yes, it definitely is the thing people are most worried about. "Who can I romance?" "How many?" "That one looks like I can romance." "Waifu already." "I can't fuck him?" "BioWare is misogynistic!" "BioWare is SJW!", Jaal's thread was the most popular one before people even knew if he had any relevance or even a name, filled with people who were basically licking a screenshot of him. This part of the base is the most loud, I mean - they got the whole romance section of the original BSN closed before for months and had the guys launching a patch so that one character could be fuckable more? How much deep in denial you live? That's your explanation. If you think MEA is really God's gift, then maybe you won't be able to understand it after all. I actually wasn't talking about this or at least as my main point. My main point was thus: In the MET Shepard had three RP dialog options at the most (not counting investigative options). Paragon, Renegade, and neutral. Which is a morality system. We had zero control over Sheard's personality. Whereas Ryder gets at least 7 dialogue options in the game, and maybe what 8? 9? There are a few instances where they do throw in more choices. But we get mainly 7 dialogue options throughout the game. The tone wheel, where we effect Ryder's personality: Casual, Emotional, Logical, and professional. We get a choice wheel where Ryder makes large to small flavor choices that effect the narrative: Just two of them. And then we get the romance and flirt option. And like I said the occasional rare friendship dialogue...but again we have 7 options as a baseline, and five of them deal with Ryder's personality. These are pretty much facts. And because of these facts I feel I have far more control over Ryder's character then I ever did with Shepard. And don't get me wrong when I was playing Shepard I thought I had a lot of control over their character, but Ryder represents, for me, such a quantum leap in the concept elevating the ME series to the very high RP standards found in the Dragon Age series. So much so that what you say that you could not do, make Ryder care about their father's death, its a classic I hear a lot. But I was. I was able to not only make my Ryder care about their father's death, someone who did not like their father btw, but it was central to my Ryder's character arc. They grew as a character when they realized that Alec actually did care about them. Ryder is less of your character than Shepard was, I think that's not up debate. If you had no problems with him, good for you, but others did, and that's no reason to shut your eye to criticism like I see many of you do. I'm not even comparing the games just because one didn't have this issue or that one has the same issue therefore nothing has to be said about it. The dialogue wheel in MEA barely helps you build a character, there's a reason people keep saying Ryder was too good or they couldn't really insert the personality you wanted for him. It clearly is up for debate since i feel this ways and i know I'm not alone. Hell I'm even dubious that my opinion is in the minority, though it probably is. Secondly you aren't debating 'many of you' you are debating me. And I've said i don't shut my eyes to criticism...quite the contrary in fact. Third I was able to insert the personality i was on Ryder...both of them...while i was not for one of my Shepards. This probably has to do with the fact that you can't define Sheps personality at all but their personality is pre packaged to fit only a couple of archetypes. |
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