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Post by Andrew Lucas on Nov 22, 2017 12:26:50 GMT
Suddenly people forget you can have good character development in a single game, and not use an other game to justify a bad execution of this one.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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XBL Gamertag: GVArcian
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Post by Arcian on Nov 22, 2017 15:08:30 GMT
Why? Liam is the absolute worst character BioWare has ever written. Even worse than al-Anders Qaida.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: GVArcian
XBL Gamertag: GVArcian
Prime Posts: 2473
Prime Likes: 2168
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Post by Arcian on Nov 22, 2017 16:34:22 GMT
Why? Liam is the absolute worst character BioWare has ever written. Even worse than al-Anders Qaida. Because characters can have flaws and not be perfect. They fit the story and world and or are interesting, entertaining. Though I also like the way Anders was written and how he fit in the story. Liam isn't merely flawed, he's completely out of place, narratively speaking. Why on earth would the Ai select an unprofessional, petulant, obnoxious manchild like Liam to serve on the team of the human Pathfinder?
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Post by stealthfox94 on Nov 22, 2017 17:43:55 GMT
Because characters can have flaws and not be perfect. They fit the story and world and or are interesting, entertaining. Though I also like the way Anders was written and how he fit in the story. Liam isn't merely flawed, he's completely out of place, narratively speaking. Why on earth would the Ai select an unprofessional, petulant, obnoxious manchild like Liam to serve on the team of the human Pathfinder? Being flawed can be good if done well. Perfection is boring.
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Post by smilesja on Nov 22, 2017 17:53:05 GMT
Suddenly people forget you can have good character development in a single game, and not use an other game to justify a bad execution of this one. Good thing ME: A has good character development!
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Post by smilesja on Nov 22, 2017 17:53:29 GMT
Why? Liam is the absolute worst character BioWare has ever written. Even worse than al-Anders Qaida. Anders and Liam are awesome!
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Post by HYR on Nov 22, 2017 17:53:59 GMT
Because characters can have flaws and not be perfect. They fit the story and world and or are interesting, entertaining. Though I also like the way Anders was written and how he fit in the story. Liam isn't merely flawed, he's completely out of place, narratively speaking. Why on earth would the Ai select an unprofessional, petulant, obnoxious manchild like Liam to serve on the team of the human Pathfinder? Arcy!! I'm new to the game and it's a bit early for an solid opinion on Liam, but I agree, I'm not seeing what the initiative saw in him. It's Jacob all over again.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 22, 2017 18:38:12 GMT
Liam isn't merely flawed, he's completely out of place, narratively speaking. Why on earth would the Ai select an unprofessional, petulant, obnoxious manchild like Liam to serve on the team of the human Pathfinder? Arcy!! I'm new to the game and it's a bit early for an solid opinion on Liam, but I agree, I'm not seeing what the initiative saw in him. It's Jacob all over again. Other than Jacob being a boring character or having meh romance content, I don't really see the problem insofar as his role in Cerberus goes. Just being an operative aboard the ship, he seems just fine, and he never really screws up, far as I can recall.
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Post by HYR on Nov 22, 2017 18:56:35 GMT
Arcy!! I'm new to the game and it's a bit early for an solid opinion on Liam, but I agree, I'm not seeing what the initiative saw in him. It's Jacob all over again. Other than Jacob being a boring character or having meh romance content, I don't really see the problem insofar as his role in Cerberus goes. Just being an operative aboard the ship, he seems just fine, and he never really screws up, far as I can recall. Jacob did not seem like the sort of elite operative that the team was gathering. He was just a guy who ran security at Lazarus. Supposedly he was a good solider some time ago, but all we saw was him losing his shit over weak-sauce LOKI mechs ... on a balcony at the other end of the room. And he had biotics. He is part of Cerberus like Liam is part of the Initiative. There may be some good reason for it, we just... never see it!
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 22, 2017 19:03:57 GMT
You just can't appreciate mind over matter, or how mean a mother gravity really is.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Nov 22, 2017 21:19:48 GMT
I'd rather passionately hate a character then be bored by them. Hatred is at least makes you feel something, while boredom just makes you feel empty inside. In that regard, Liam is a far superior character then Jacob ever could be.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 22, 2017 21:52:16 GMT
Liam? Hmm.
My Shepard would have shot him when he mentions he gave vital information to someone. After talking with Bradley, I would turn around and shoot him dead where he stands. My Ryder would turn him over to Nexus security so he can explain why he did what he did. The moment he said what he did, any trust I had for him went out the window. He's a traitor.
Alec recruited him and others because not only are they talented, never saw any of that in the cop, but because they're dreamers. I wouldn't be surprised if Kosta had a dream about being a cop.
I would take Taylor over Kosta
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Nov 22, 2017 21:58:39 GMT
You know, I would probably feel the same way about Liam if wasn't for the fact that his leaking of Nexus information had absolutely no consequences after his loyalty mission. The whole thing is completely forgotten by the plot like it never happened. It's hard to be mad at a person when the narrative decides that nothing they do matters.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 22, 2017 22:44:26 GMT
You know, I would probably feel the same way about Liam if wasn't for the fact that his leaking of Nexus information had absolutely no consequences after his loyalty mission. The whole thing is completely forgotten by the plot like it never happened. It's hard to be mad at a person when the narrative decides that nothing they do matters. Hey maybe there were consequences. When Bradley and others left Podromos, kett bums pilfered their MRE's or whatever the heck it is they eat there.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 22, 2017 23:42:57 GMT
Also while we're talking, why did Alec Ryder only select combatants and pilots, shouldn't there also be specialistis like linguists, geologists, biologists and anthropologists to take part of the team for tasks that don't involve shooting at angry aliens but I digress. Regarding this part, I suspect that these roles were filled by Kirkland, Fisher, Hayes, and Greer. Thus after they either die or retire those positions are filled by people from the Hyperion in the case of Lexi or the Hyperion in the case of Suvi, Kallo, and Gil.
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Our mistakes make us who we are.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by xochipilli on Nov 23, 2017 8:00:25 GMT
Jumping in on this, I don't find myself surprised by any member of the Andromeda Initiative, top to bottom, displaying maladaptive behaviour, for several reasons. One, I think the idea of the AI would attract a certain type of individual, both in terms of personality and background, and that many of these individuals may perhaps paradoxically be poorly suited to the demands of the situation upon arrival. Two, relatedly, I think it's obvious that AI was not picking and choosing from the cream of the Milky Way crop. I don't get why people are talking about it like it's getting into Harvard or something, as a lot of the people you talk to just joined the Initiative because they had some friend or family member who joined, or they felt like exploring, or because they were running from something, or they had no one and nothing to stay for. There's very little, if any, mention of stringent selection criteria. Other than Cora, none of the members of Alec Ryder's team rattles off a list of gold-plated qualifications and accomplishments, so I'm not sure why Liam would have to. Three, the divergence between one's anticipation of improved circumstances and a much more painful reality creates a lot of psychological and social (and other) turmoil. This is the basis of, for example, the Tocquevillian theory of revolution. (Groups of) people act out in unusual, chaotic, contentious ways especially when things are very bad and were expected to have been very good. Four, the more basic point is that the incredible stresses induced by the first months in Andromeda are likely the most extreme experienced by the vast majority of people there, and probably by a long way. Just by the end of the prologue the characters know: - the settlement worlds are unlivable,
- the Nexus is nearly out of resources,
- the leader of the Initiative and its entire top leadership is dead,
- a substantial proportion of the Nexus's awoken population has abandoned it (krogan), been exiled or killed in an insurrection against the replacement leadership,
- the only alien species which has been encountered shoots on sight,
- the human Pathfinder is dead, unilaterally replaced by his 22-year-old son/daughter
- all three of the other arks and their Pathfinders are missing
- and, finally, the entire known cluster is pervaded by a dark energy phenomenon capable of destroying ships and planets wholesale.
It's curious to me that people find it unbelievable that Liam would be scared, impulsive and willing to take unilateral action in these circumstances, or that he would sometimes come off as "petulant" or "obnoxious" given the stresses. He offers this exact explanation, actually, in conversation with Vetra. Fifth, the Grey Matter quest on Elaaden. Stasis apparently affects the brain in unanticipated ways over the long term for many people, and the effects may be present in everyone to some variable extent (a very subtle change in brain chemistry among crew members, or the wrong tests, or consideration of my earlier points, or any number of things could explain why Lexi notices it only upon encountering belligerent scavengers. Science very often begins by noticing the most obvious anomaly, not the less extreme cases). So even after bracketing the first four reasons, it could be that Liam and other members of the Initiative are slightly different mentally and emotionally (psychologically, hormonally) than they were when the papers were signed back in the Milky Way.
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Felya87
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Felya87 on Nov 23, 2017 10:59:20 GMT
I can't say I didn't like the cast, I liked them. But I felt the atmosphear was...too relaxed. A part from Gil and Kallo, I can't remember other moments of conflict in the crew. And in such a varied group, with basically the entire phate of what is left of the Milky Way on their shoulders... well, it felt a little unnatural having all so friendly and happysh. Not that I don't like having a group of people who trust each other to fight together, and even be friends and comrades, but I feel it should have been something a little more... earned. Seeing more evolution in the friendships. And frankly I was expecting at every moment in my run that Cora betrayed/snapped at Ryder: as much as I appreciate in RL a person who doesn't feel grudges or is able to deal with envy and all that stuff, in a story is a little bland. A little more of a gruffy start with Cora, with us having to earn her respect for the Pathfinder position, building a relationship of trust and respect before friendship, would have been more satysfing for me. It was like that with Miranda, for me: she and my Jade basically would have shoot each other at the start of ME2, but developed in time a good friendship.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Nov 23, 2017 18:07:44 GMT
Man, Liam is just fuckin' lame. Correct me if wrong, but who had the idea of letting Jacob's writer do him? Tf. Doesn't help BioWare having more bland ones from the rest of the game too.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Nov 23, 2017 18:31:56 GMT
You feeling that way isn't surprising. For lack of a better word, there is no "politics" or social conflicts in MEA especially when it comes to the Initiative and thus the Tempest crew have little to argue about. Everyone wants to join forces with the Anagarians. Everyone supports the Nexus over the Exiles. Everyone with the exception of Drack thinks SAM is a person and not a tool. Everyone argues the Initiative should end up as a democracy.
Compare that to the Inquisition cast who basically disagreed about or had conflicts about every major social issue in Thedas. Solas arguing with Vivienne about the Circle. Sera and Dorian arguing about the dangers of magic. Sera and Solas arguing about elves. Blackwall and Solas arguing about the Grey Wardens. Cassandra and Varric arguing about Kirkwall and Hawke, etc. Thedas is a rich setting that gave the DAI cast something to debate and fight over, which made their characters more interesting. The Heleus Cluster is nowhere as interesting and as consequence, the Tempest crew have nothing to talk about beyond the Kett being jerks and wonders of exploration.
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Post by Felya87 on Nov 24, 2017 9:26:50 GMT
You feeling that way isn't surprising. For lack of a better word, there is no "politics" or social conflicts in MEA especially when it comes to the Initiative and thus the Tempest crew have little to argue about. Everyone wants to join forces with the Anagarians. Everyone supports the Nexus over the Exiles. Everyone with the exception of Drack thinks SAM is a person and not a tool. Everyone argues the Initiative should end up as a democracy. Compare that to the Inquisition cast who basically disagreed about or had conflicts about every major social issue in Thedas. Solas arguing with Vivienne about the Circle. Sera and Dorian arguing about the dangers of magic. Sera and Solas arguing about elves. Blackwall and Solas arguing about the Grey Wardens. Cassandra and Varric arguing about Kirkwall and Hawke, etc. Thedas is a rich setting that gave the DAI cast something to debate and fight over, which made their characters more interesting. The Heleus Cluster is nowhere as interesting and as consequence, the Tempest crew have nothing to talk about beyond the Kett being jerks and wonders of exploration. Frankly, I don't think there is no conflict... in Andromeda... is simply not explored, and completely ignored by the crew. There are different view on the Nexus, there are dissent and even low key revolt even without the exiled. There is the anti-IA group who tryed to destroy SAM, there are the random guys who isult Ryder, there are those who hate the Krogan... and so on. But nothing is ever appropriately explored or ever make it to the crew. In a way, it feel like the crew is somehow... numbed. At least that's my impression. I'm feeling it even more in the new run I'm playng.
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Post by Ahriman on Nov 24, 2017 13:58:39 GMT
You feeling that way isn't surprising. For lack of a better word, there is no "politics" or social conflicts in MEA especially when it comes to the Initiative and thus the Tempest crew have little to argue about. Everyone wants to join forces with the Anagarians. Why wouldn't they, really? Angara have experience against Kett and don't want to turn everyone into drones. Because Ryder is Nexus, why would there be Nexus' enemies on Tempest? Not to mention that only two out of five squadmates are actually pro-Nexus. Even Vetra despite living there doesn't hesitate to deal with exiles. You are forgetting general stance on AI in ME. There were enough incidents to teach people that an AI is anything but "just a tool". Some think they are dangerous, others that they too valuable to be banned, but nobody underestimates AI's will. Part of a setup. Jien is dead, the rest of Nexus' top (except Kandros) are idiots. Democratic elections are common sense in such situation. Then again everyone comes from Citadel space where it's the natural order of things. I do agree with the notion that everyone is way too accepting towards each other, but for the record ME1, for example, wasn't much different.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Nov 24, 2017 16:45:17 GMT
You feeling that way isn't surprising. For lack of a better word, there is no "politics" or social conflicts in MEA especially when it comes to the Initiative and thus the Tempest crew have little to argue about. Everyone wants to join forces with the Anagarians. Everyone supports the Nexus over the Exiles. Everyone with the exception of Drack thinks SAM is a person and not a tool. Everyone argues the Initiative should end up as a democracy. Compare that to the Inquisition cast who basically disagreed about or had conflicts about every major social issue in Thedas. Solas arguing with Vivienne about the Circle. Sera and Dorian arguing about the dangers of magic. Sera and Solas arguing about elves. Blackwall and Solas arguing about the Grey Wardens. Cassandra and Varric arguing about Kirkwall and Hawke, etc. Thedas is a rich setting that gave the DAI cast something to debate and fight over, which made their characters more interesting. The Heleus Cluster is nowhere as interesting and as consequence, the Tempest crew have nothing to talk about beyond the Kett being jerks and wonders of exploration. Frankly, I don't think there is no conflict... in Andromeda... is simply not explored, and completely ignored by the crew. There are different view on the Nexus, there are dissent and even low key revolt even without the exiled. There is the anti-IA group who tryed to destroy SAM, there are the random guys who isult Ryder, there are those who hate the Krogan... and so on. But nothing is ever appropriately explored or ever make it to the crew. In a way, it feel like the crew is somehow... numbed. At least that's my impression. I'm feeling it even more in the new run I'm playng. Could have been explored with DLC expansion......but oh well. Also as far as I can tell the Roekaar have little reason to actually exist, they're just bunch of racist dicks that exist purely because you need another enemy besides the kett.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 25, 2017 5:25:05 GMT
Frankly, I don't think there is no conflict... in Andromeda... is simply not explored, and completely ignored by the crew. There are different view on the Nexus, there are dissent and even low key revolt even without the exiled. There is the anti-IA group who tryed to destroy SAM, there are the random guys who isult Ryder, there are those who hate the Krogan... and so on. But nothing is ever appropriately explored or ever make it to the crew. In a way, it feel like the crew is somehow... numbed. At least that's my impression. I'm feeling it even more in the new run I'm playng. Could have been explored with DLC expansion......but oh well. Also as far as I can tell the Roekaar have little reason to actually exist, they're just bunch of racist dicks that exist purely because you need another enemy besides the kett. In fairness, the Roekaar's xenophobic ideology isn't exactly ill-founded. The kett tricked them and turned out to be a race of parasitic overlords, and then another group comes along and makes more trouble for them as well, and to add insult to injury took control of their old settlements.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Nov 25, 2017 5:46:30 GMT
Could have been explored with DLC expansion......but oh well. Also as far as I can tell the Roekaar have little reason to actually exist, they're just bunch of racist dicks that exist purely because you need another enemy besides the kett. he fairness, the Roekaar's xenophobic ideology isn't exactly ill-founded. The kett tricked them and turned out to be a race of parasitic overlords, and then another group comes along and makes more trouble for them as well, and to add insult to injury took control of their old settlements. Oh believe me I completely 100% get why some Angaran wouldn't like the idea of milky way aliens coming to Andromeda to colonize. However the Roekaar prioritize killing them over killing the kett, they even droped to the level of killing other Angaran. They're scum with no redeeming qualities.
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 788 Likes: 780
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Post by Guts on Dec 5, 2017 4:45:21 GMT
Liam: Right, so, there's a lot of hate for Liam in the fandom, but I got to admit that he was kind of my favorite squadmate, which admittedly isn't that high of a bar for me in MEA. He's totally the by-product of Bioware's attempt to make MEA a more "optimistic and light-hearted" game, which is usually a fine thing to do, but in the context of MEA's super-serious plot he doesn't make a lick of sense as a character, is way to young, and feels like a rando that somehow got put on the most important team in the Andromeda Initiative, which is fucking ridiculous. That said, I like the fact that he's super-emotional, and not in that romanticised Jaal way of showing emotion, but in a the realistic form that can off-putting and annoying, which I think is a lot more authentic. That's something that Liam's writer has historically been good at, giving his characters realistic emotional freakouts that at least leave an impact, for better or for worse. 7/10. Cora: People have already said it. She's a boring Asari Otaku whose most interesting aspects (facing biotic prejudice) gets totally ignored. Even her dealing with Alec's death and the Asari Pathfinder's crime didn't do anything for me. Honestly, the only remarkable thing I can say about her is that she has a nice ass. Sorry feminists out there. I wish Bioware wrote an interesting female character in this game so I wouldn't have to go there. 5/10. Drack: I actually kind of like him and was even emotionally moved at times when he talked. His struggles with age, mortality and creating a future for his people just worked as a narrative, and while he does have a couple Krogan tropes that I'm tried of he ultimately managed to still be likable. Chances are, if we get a sequel and he does die in it I'm going to cry. Can't really say the same for any of the other members of the Tempest crew. 7/10. Vetra: She's cool and actually has an interesting backstory, but her little sister plot completely uninterested me and I feel the overall plot really let her down. A shame. 6/10. Jaal: I wanted to like Jaal and can be admit that's probably the most fleshed out character in the Tempest crew, but I cannot help but be somewhat bored with him. I don't even really know why. Maybe it's because it felt like his writer was trying to hard to make him romantic and deep? 6/10. Peebee: She's a watered down version of Sera and to me that's a bad thing. Plenty of people hate Sera, but at least to me she was interesting and tackled issues that I really don't see a lot in video games. Peebee on the other hand just felt so transparent and predictable as a character. Literally the moment she molested my Ryder and did her "I work alone" schtick, I knew she was going to be the emotionally-detached girl that's afraid of getting close to people but secretly wants family and friendship. It just annoyed me how blatant her character arc was and by the time she literally says to the entire Tempest crew that their her family now I just lost it. Also, her hating/not giving a shit about the Asari makes no sense and unlike Sera she doesn't have a tragic backstory or cultural context to explain it, leaving me confused and annoyed. Most importantly though, her dick-riding sex scene with FemRyder is objectively inferior to Sera's sex scene in DAI. Where's the progress Bioware! That all said, I do admit that did feel for her when it was revealed that Kalinda was abusive towards her. Sort of wish they didn't turn into a comedic rivalry thing during her squad mission though. 5/10. Kallo: I barely remember this guy. He's not bad, just forgettable. 4/10. Gil: The only remarkable thing about him is his surprisingly offensive baby plot. Good job Bioware! 3/10. Suvi: Also forgettable and one-note. Well, that's not true. She actually had two-notes which were, I like science and believing in a vaguely defined God. Seriously Bioware you could of just picked a religion. Also, her face reminds me of a Vulcan and the Chucky doll. 4/10. Lexi: What a waste of Natalie Dormer. Oh well. 4/10. Reyes: Zevran did the morally-ambiguous-sexy-Spaniard-guy thing better in my opinion. 6/10. Overall pretty meh. There's no one I hate in this game but no I love either. Just mostly meh all around. I considered Peebee to be more like a Liara except she was a lot better, both character and character development wise. Dialogue wise, I liked her dialogue but it came across as anachronistic.
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