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Post by ShadowAngel on Nov 3, 2017 17:05:59 GMT
Yeah, I don't know about this. If a developer decides to throw in the towel because a loud vocal minority is posting memes and making long-winded videos about how much your game sucks, then I really don't see your going to survive as a business. This is the Internet Age where billions of people have access to a technology that allows them to voice their opinion no matter who idiotic it is. You need to be able to have confidence in your product and ignore the inevitable flood of nonconstructive hate your going to get. I mean, this is EA and Bioware were talking about here, not some nobody developer that's never faced serious criticism before. DAI for instance got heavily criticized by rabid trolls but it got 3 SP DLCs regardless. Honestly, to me the real reason MEA got pulled is because EA, being the cutthroat business that it is, had no confidence in a developer team that quite frankly wasted their time and money. Furthermore, if MEA haters were seemingly more numerous than its supporters and fans, then maybe, just maybe, MEA just wasn't a strong enough product to deserve an enough ardent defenders willing to protect the game's reputation from trolls. Like I said, that isn't the only reason or even a major one, but the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't recall DA:I getting the same levels of shitposting trolls that ME:A did, but I don't play DA so I could be wrong there. I guarantee that ME:A failed primarily because of Montreal's incompetence, but I can't shake the feeling that memes and REEE'ing on social media is what helped to get the game shitcanned by EA instead of being improved further and redeemed somewhat. Inquisition had a few big differences helping it out. It was an experienced studio making it rather than one that was pretty new. So it's much easier for inquisition to quell the bugs and animations (and even animations then were bad, just not as bad as Andromeda). Bioware has never been good at animations anyways. It also was coming off DA2s failures so the fanbase had the thinking "it can't get worse" where as Andromeda was coming off a relatively successful game. Expectations are just higher with mass effect than dragon age, it gives dragon age more wiggle room to screw up in a sense. Inquisition also didn't have various key leaders leave in it development like Andromeda. Those would be the biggest differences, inquisition had more room for success while Andromeda had internal issues. It's hard to make a good game if you don't like the people you work with. inquistion as a result is biowares #1 selling game and did win game of the year awards. It still carried its own backlash however but to a lesser extent. It's hard to take the backlash into consideration when you're breaking records and winning awards though. It's easier to dig pile Andromeda because it imwasnt showing any clear sign of success. There was no "this is the best selling mass effect" and so far it's barely been nominated for awards. People use that to further criticize it. Flip flop to where andromeda gets edmonton and doesn't have people leave in development and odds are you'd see a very different reception as certain issues wouldn't be there. as for media intervention: you could say it played a part but it plays a part for everyone else too. This is also why you've gotta be careful what you show to the public as the media will take that and use it vs you if possible. They did just that when they started showing scenes and people got attached to the animations. So I think part of the blame can go to Bioware not being more protective on what they show, especially with the 10 hour EA trial a week before launch. i also don't think you can redeem what is a lost cause. If sales and the reception are that bad on launch, it steers people away. So if you're not profiting enough, most companies won't spend the money and time to "try" and get back what they can. They take they're losses and move on. I don't think Andromeda was even a financial failure, I just don't think it sold enough to keep going. I recall someone linking them wanting 6 million copies sold which to be fair is a stretch for any Bioware game. As great as they can be, they're not known for big hit games to make those numbers. You can combine the trilogies sales in their first year and find that may barely edge out Andromeda itself. That's 3 games combined that you're wanting one game to beat out. EA has always had big expectations and they'll only grow bigger.
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Post by abaris on Nov 3, 2017 17:07:21 GMT
Fair enough. We both agree that MEA's lack of SP DLC was a perfect storm of issues that screwed it over. And I will admit that while DAI did indeed get trashed on the old forums for being "fetch quest trash" I don't recall it getting a shit ton of gifs and memes like MEA. Then again, DAI didn't have anywhere near the amount of graphic problems MEA had. DAI was also the better game. More polished, but more importantly less empty, for lack of a better world. The maps didn't feel as barren as MEAs for starters. Fetch and carry is something most games do these days. The question is, how much of it is used to cover for lack of content. With MEA the majority was made up of that kind of filler and trash mob fights galore. Also, the companions were more interesting with DAI, and there were more of them, most having interesting backstories tying into the game. In short, there was much more love for detail in DAI.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 3, 2017 17:11:32 GMT
Fair enough. We both agree that MEA's lack of SP DLC was a perfect storm of issues that screwed it over. And I will admit that while DAI did indeed get trashed on the old forums for being "fetch quest trash" I don't recall it getting a shit ton of gifs and memes like MEA. Then again, DAI didn't have anywhere near the amount of graphic problems MEA had. DAI was also the better game. More polished, but more importantly less empty, for lack of a better world. The maps didn't feel as barren as MEAs for starters. Fetch and carry is something most games do these days. The question is, how much of it is used to cover for lack of content. With MEA the majority was made up of that kind of filler and trash mob fights galore. It's kind of weird, though -- ME:A gives people this impression, but it's hard to see what causes the impression. DAI zones average a good deal less content and interactivity than ME:A planets.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 17:18:13 GMT
Like I said, that isn't the only reason or even a major one, but the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't recall DA:I getting the same levels of shitposting trolls that ME:A did, but I don't play DA so I could be wrong there. I guarantee that ME:A failed primarily because of Montreal's incompetence, but I can't shake the feeling that memes and REEE'ing on social media is what helped to get the game shitcanned by EA instead of being improved further and redeemed somewhat. Inquisition had a few big differences helping it out. It was an experienced studio making it rather than one that was pretty new. So it's much easier for inquisition to quell the bugs and animations (and even animations then were bad, just not as bad as Andromeda). Bioware has never been good at animations anyways. It also was coming off DA2s failures so the fanbase had the thinking "it can't get worse" where as Andromeda was coming off a relatively successful game. Expectations are just higher with mass effect than dragon age, it gives dragon age more wiggle room to screw up in a sense. Inquisition also didn't have various key leaders leave in it development like Andromeda. Those would be the biggest differences, inquisition had more room for success while Andromeda had internal issues. It's hard to make a good game if you don't like the people you work with. inquistion as a result is biowares #1 selling game and did win game of the year awards. It still carried its own backlash however but to a lesser extent. It's hard to take the backlash into consideration when you're breaking records and winning awards though. It's easier to dig pile Andromeda because it imwasnt showing any clear sign of success. There was no "this is the best selling mass effect" and so far it's barely been nominated for awards. People use that to further criticize it. Flip flop to where andromeda gets edmonton and doesn't have people leave in development and odds are you'd see a very different reception as certain issues wouldn't be there. as for media intervention: you could say it played a part but it plays a part for everyone else too. This is also why you've gotta be careful what you show to the public as the media will take that and use it vs you if possible. They did just that when they started showing scenes and people got attached to the animations. So I think part of the blame can go to Bioware not being more protective on what they show, especially with the 10 hour EA trial a week before launch. i also don't think you can redeem what is a lost cause. If sales and the reception are that bad on launch, it steers people away. So if you're not profiting enough, most companies won't spend the money and time to "try" and get back what they can. They take they're losses and move on. I don't think Andromeda was even a financial failure, I just don't think it sold enough to keep going. I recall someone linking them wanting 6 million copies sold which to be fair is a stretch for any Bioware game. As great as they can be, they're not known for big hit games to make those numbers. You can combine the trilogies sales in their first year and find that may barely edge out Andromeda itself. That's 3 games combined that you're wanting one game to beat out. EA has always had big expectations and they'll only grow bigger. BF4 had a launch that makes ME:A's look like it went off without a hitch, but DiCE fixed all of the issues and went on to release multiple DLCs, and BF4 went on to be a fan favorite, despite it. It was another game that was under EA, was arguably rushed, but the backlash was relatively minor, prolly because DiCE took full responsibility. There was definitely a demand for ME:A DLC, all you have to do is look at the ME twitter. Like I said, there are lots of contributing factors, but the massive backlash had to have played a part. Just really sucks for those of us that wanted more.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Nov 3, 2017 17:27:04 GMT
DAI was also the better game. More polished, but more importantly less empty, for lack of a better world. The maps didn't feel as barren as MEAs for starters. Fetch and carry is something most games do these days. The question is, how much of it is used to cover for lack of content. With MEA the majority was made up of that kind of filler and trash mob fights galore. It's kind of weird, though -- ME:A gives people this impression, but it's hard to see what causes the impression. DAI zones average a good deal less content and interactivity than ME:A planets. Agreed. I like DAI more then MEA but I can't lie to self and say DAI did open world better. DAI is even more empty than MEA's zones in a lot of ways. That said, I actually cared about what was going on DAI so that might have helped me tolerate the emptiness and fetch quests a lot more. Chances are a lot of people feel the same way, which is probably why MEA is seen as having a weaker open world.
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Post by FluffyCannibal on Nov 3, 2017 17:46:06 GMT
I skipped the first ten pages, so this has probably already been said, but...
The trend of people thinking the newest game is always the worst isn't a phenomenon unique to Mass Effect. For example, Watch Dogs got trash-talked a lot, but since Watch Dogs 2 was released everybody suddenly fell in love with the first game. Personally I think it's partly that rose-tinted glasses take time to form, but mostly because whenever a sequel is released it inevitably has a lot of changes to features, such as combat systems and abilities, the way levelling works, etc.. People generally don't like change, so when faced with it they start thinking back to the old game and how much better it's systems work...and while they're at it, a lot of other stuff was better too...and that's when the rose tinted glasses take effect and suddenly they've decided that the previous game/s were incredible.
Hell, it's not even a phenomenon unique to video games; pretty much everything ever suffers from this.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 18:00:39 GMT
Bioware and EA just gave up. End of story.
Look at Final Fantasy 14. That game got SHIT on when it first came out and deservedly so. They pulled the game, reworked it, then put it back out to all types of praise. SQUARE ENIX didn't give up on it even though they damn near had to start over from scratch. They even changed the Dev Team Leadership to make shit right and people love it.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Nov 3, 2017 19:08:26 GMT
Bioware and EA just gave up. End of story. Look at Final Fantasy 14. That game got SHIT on when it first came out and deservedly so. They pulled the game, reworked it, then put it back out to all types of praise. SQUARE ENIX didn't give up on it even though they damn near had to start over from scratch. They even changed the Dev Team Leadership to make shit right and people love it. Bioware and EA be like...
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 3, 2017 20:17:47 GMT
Bioware and EA just gave up. End of story. Look at Final Fantasy 14. That game got SHIT on when it first came out and deservedly so. They pulled the game, reworked it, then put it back out to all types of praise. SQUARE ENIX didn't give up on it even though they damn near had to start over from scratch. They even changed the Dev Team Leadership to make shit right and people love it. BioWare and EA patched most of the problems out of Andromeda, so they didn't give up on it either. They spent six month fixing and improving the issues in the game. In reality the problem boils down to money, Final Fantasy 14 was a MMO and people have subscriptions so Squarenix had a way to recoup the money they would have spent on the game, a single player game generally only has the first couple of months of revenue. If EA thought they could have made money off of Andromeda and with how evil and money hungry people say they are don't you think they would have gone down that route. My belief is that EA saw that there was a very small population of players still playing the game after six months and they have the internal figures to know how many people would buy a BioWare SP DLC six months after launch. So with the numbers they have I am pretty sure it was the fact they have the belief that DLC would have lost money to create and nothing else really impacted the decision.
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Post by SofNascimento on Nov 3, 2017 21:41:36 GMT
You're wrong. When ME2 came out it was recognized by the majority of fans as being the best game. Right after its release. Sure, there were people that didn't like its direction and all that, but that was the minority. I remember much butthurt on the old BSN on the release of ME2. There was some butthurt, but it was a minority. And this is the point. Right after ME2 release it was already recognized as the best Mass Effect game, which makes the idea that the latest Mass Effect game is the worst just wrong. After ME2, ME3 had the ending problem which make it a special suck. And Andromeda is simply the worst Bioware game in the history of the company, I prefer not to remember its part of the Mass Effect series.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 21:45:34 GMT
I remember much butthurt on the old BSN on the release of ME2. There was some butthurt, but it was a minority. And this is the point. Right after ME2 release it was already recognized as the best Mass Effect game, which makes the idea that the latest Mass Effect game is the worst just wrong. After ME2, ME3 had the ending problem which make it a special suck. And Andromeda is simply the worst Bioware game in the history of the company, I prefer not to remember its part of the Mass Effect series. It was one loud minority. A board dominating minority. I'm never gonna share your view on ME:A, but you do you.
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Post by SofNascimento on Nov 3, 2017 21:47:54 GMT
There was some butthurt, but it was a minority. And this is the point. Right after ME2 release it was already recognized as the best Mass Effect game, which makes the idea that the latest Mass Effect game is the worst just wrong. After ME2, ME3 had the ending problem which make it a special suck. And Andromeda is simply the worst Bioware game in the history of the company, I prefer not to remember its part of the Mass Effect series. It was one loud minority. A board dominating minority.I'm never gonna share your view on ME:A, but you do you. It wasn't even that. BSN was quite... civil after ME2's release. It was nothing compared to DA2 or ME3, or even DAI.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 21:49:19 GMT
It was one loud minority. A board dominating minority.I'm never gonna share your view on ME:A, but you do you. It wasn't even that. BSN was quite... civil after ME2's release. It was nothing compared to DA2 or ME3, or even DAI. I remember very... driven... individuals that made it their crusade to demolish ME2. Good 'ol BSN... always just a bit nutty.
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Post by SofNascimento on Nov 3, 2017 22:21:52 GMT
It wasn't even that. BSN was quite... civil after ME2's release. It was nothing compared to DA2 or ME3, or even DAI. I remember very... driven... individuals that made it their crusade to demolish ME2. Good 'ol BSN... always just a bit nutty. I won't deny that some people that didn't like ME2 were very... passionate about their dislike. And I suppose it wasn't even old BSN, more like older old BSN...
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Post by abaris on Nov 3, 2017 23:09:54 GMT
It was one loud minority. A board dominating minority. I'm never gonna share your view on ME:A, but you do you. A dominating minority, is it? How many DLCs did ME2 get again? How influential was this dominating minority of yours?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 23:18:55 GMT
It was one loud minority. A board dominating minority. I'm never gonna share your view on ME:A, but you do you. A dominating minority, is it? How many DLCs did ME2 get again? How influential was this dominating minority of yours? Mainly taking over the boards with their views. Obviously BioWare couldn't give a shit what their gripes were. Just loud angry people spouting off.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 4, 2017 0:40:58 GMT
Bioware and EA just gave up. End of story. Look at Final Fantasy 14. That game got SHIT on when it first came out and deservedly so. They pulled the game, reworked it, then put it back out to all types of praise. SQUARE ENIX didn't give up on it even though they damn near had to start over from scratch. They even changed the Dev Team Leadership to make shit right and people love it. Bioware and EA be like... SO BE IT!!!!
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Nov 4, 2017 3:40:49 GMT
To be fair his ME games were critically hits, sold well, and won many GOTYs. RGB/holokid- that is all. There's an amount of quality 150+ hours beyond that. It's no coincidence the game he was the least involved at the time of released was the one that got destroyed in every way, and every plan cancelled afterwards. I mean, come on.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 4, 2017 8:15:12 GMT
A dominating minority, is it? How many DLCs did ME2 get again? How influential was this dominating minority of yours? Mainly taking over the boards with their views. Obviously BioWare couldn't give a shit what their gripes were. Just loud angry people spouting off. Nope. It really wasn't like that... It wasn't even that bad in 2012 when they brought the pitchforks for the ending because nobody actually bullied those who liked or at least didn't mind the endings.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2017 15:40:22 GMT
Mainly taking over the boards with their views. Obviously BioWare couldn't give a shit what their gripes were. Just loud angry people spouting off. Nope. It really wasn't like that... It wasn't even that bad in 2012 when they brought the pitchforks for the ending because nobody actually bullied those who liked or at least didn't mind the endings. Revisionist history buff, are we?
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Nov 4, 2017 16:17:41 GMT
I think the phenomenon is more akin to "selective hearing."
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 4, 2017 16:55:36 GMT
I will say it again, MEA is statistically/critcally the worst ME game based on the following factors:
1) It is the only game not to get SP DLC
2) It is the lowest scored ME game
3) It has the lowest amount of GOTY/RPG of the Year awards (Currently it has 0 nominations in both categories from any publication)
So just going by those, then yeah, MEA is the worst out of all 4 ME games. Then you have other measures such as:
1) MEA was made by the same studio that also made Omega....which was the lowest scored ME3 DLC.
2) It became an internet joke. Yes, ME3 also walked into such territory with the endings, however ME3 still won a few awards and was granted multiple DLCs, one of them being The Citadel which is considered one of the best if not THE best SP DLC Bioware has ever created.
3) MEA failed to match/out do DAI in terms of sales. After DAI was released, Bioware and EA was on a parade bragging about how DAI was the fastest selling Bioware game ever; and this was after the negative reception that DA2 had. So with EA and Bioware not going out on the same parade post MEA launch, it is clear that MEA failed to deliver sales wise the same way DAI did.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 4, 2017 16:59:37 GMT
Mainly taking over the boards with their views. Obviously BioWare couldn't give a shit what their gripes were. Just loud angry people spouting off. Nope. It really wasn't like that... It wasn't even that bad in 2012 when they brought the pitchforks for the ending because nobody actually bullied those who liked or at least didn't mind the endings. I was bullied when I said that I didn't mind the ending, not to mention the pure hostility that was there to anything positive said about the game. People did plenty of FIFY when others were talking about things they liked.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 4, 2017 17:01:52 GMT
I will say it again, MEA is statistically/critcally the worst ME game based on the following factors: 1) It is the only game not to get SP DLC 2) It is the lowest scored ME game 3) It has the lowest amount of GOTY/RPG of the Year awards (Currently it has 0 nominations in both categories from any publication) So just going by those, then yeah, MEA is the worst out of all 4 ME games. Then you have other measures such as: 1) MEA was made by the same studio that also made Omega....which was the lowest scored ME3 DLC. 2) It became an internet joke. Yes, ME3 also walked into such territory with the endings, however ME3 still won a few awards and was granted multiple DLCs, one of them being The Citadel which is considered one of the best if not THE best SP DLC Bioware has ever created. 3) MEA failed to match/out do DAI in terms of sales. After DAI was released, Bioware and EA was on a parade bragging about how DAI was the fastest selling Bioware game ever; and this was after the negative reception that DA2 had. So with EA and Bioware not going out on the same parade post MEA launch, it is clear that MEA failed to deliver sales wise the same way DAI did. The problem I have when people do things like this for Andromeda is a lot of people went into a bubble said these things don't matter when people were talking about how Dragon Age: Inquisition or Mass Effect 3 were not as bad as people were projecting. So why should I care when people try to prove how bad the game is when doing this?
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Nov 25, 2024 21:38:57 GMT
11,083
Kappa Neko
...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
4,195
Oct 18, 2016 21:17:18 GMT
October 2016
kappaneko
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 4, 2017 17:30:01 GMT
Nope. It really wasn't like that... It wasn't even that bad in 2012 when they brought the pitchforks for the ending because nobody actually bullied those who liked or at least didn't mind the endings. I was bullied when I said that I didn't mind the ending, not to mention the pure hostility that was there to anything positive said about the game. People did plenty of FIFY when others were talking about things they liked. Can't say I remember being bullied for not minding the ending that much. I left because the general negativity annoyed me. Couldn't get behind ten minutes ruining the entire trilogy. How I remember it at least was that the anger was more directed at Bioware and not at people liking the game. But sorry to hear that you got bullied!
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