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Post by river82 on Nov 21, 2017 4:53:16 GMT
If you've got the answers to these intractable world problems, let's hear more of that and less 'I bet I know I know more than you'. Do you even hear yourself? If you think DA2 presents a less realistic view of real world predjudices and the difficulty of resolving them than other Bioware games, then your ignorance will be an impervious defence, as it is always is for people like you. In the other BW your victories are the worst kind of 'Find the Magic Thingamajig' nonsense, and your character is just handed authority to act, a VIP pass to meet Kings, go wherever they like, act with total impunity etc. Never earned, and with the resolutions amounting to 'We were the first to tag you, so we're the boss and you have to do what we say now'. Or else ridiculous 'I'm Commander Sheperd and I say to you Quarians and Geth, instead of fighting... DON'T!' Kirkwall's problems had no silver bullets. The predjudices and realities on the ground were too much for a weak and embattled Viscount to deal with. You can warn him about Petrice and Elthina too, but neither can risk upsetting the factions in the city over potential crimes. Meredith didn't overstep her authority until Act 3 and even then Leliana (for some reason) implies if you move against her, the Chantry will lead an Exalted March to deal with the mages. Even Sebastian is appalled by that. And that's setting aside that in Acts 1 and 2, Meredith even demonstrates she is willing to abide by law and act for the city (she helps Emerich investigate Gaspard despite the delicate matter of upsetting nobles, she rejects Alrik's Tranquil Solution etc'. If you continue to cop this 'I know more than you about everything' attitude, then we're done here. I've had enough of people like you and their cheap disdain. Sure. Let's start with first of all if the Western World hadn't punished the Ottoman Empire (weak military, worried about survival) for resembling modern Europe (reliant on America's military) by breaking seizing their land at the end of World War 1 then entered a secret agreement to break up the country and divide them up with little regard to race, linguistic capabilities and other factors to distribute in secret to European powerhouses, say like, for example, creating the BRITISH MANDATE OF PALESTINE, then many of these issues wouldn't exist right now. Then we can continue with if the Western world wasn't as interested in keeping those borders in place that would lessen tensions for starters. The Ottoman Empire ruled for 700 years in the area that's currently overrun by chaos, they didn't do it because the region is ungovernable. Afghanistan you can blame on an American and Russian powergrab, Iran you can blame on a backlash against CIA intereference in their Government. In other words, most of the reason the region is unstable is due to England, America, France, and Russia. In other words, a simple way to reduce regional instability is for outside influences to leave the Middle East alone and to let them resolve their own issues, instead of (for example) Syria being a stage for America, Russia, and all of Europe to confront each other over. If you had actually listened to many people in the Middle East during that conflict you would have heard a distinct wish for outside influences to BUTT OUT. Let's start here, your rebuttal on why the lessening of outside influences wouldn't change much in the Middle East if you would please. Do you hear yourself? You fling out a bunch of issues you obviously have no clue about and tie them to Dragon Age 2 in ways nobody can see but you and you expect people to be impressed? I can detect your ignorance on these matters a mile away, and you just chuck them out willy nilly. I'm not interested whether you're offended by my "I know more than you" thing, how about you don't talk about stuff you don't know much about if you don't want people confronting you over them. Your argument that I said Dragon Age 2 is "less realistic" is a strawman. Congratulations. You don't present any argument as to why the resolution of events in Dragon Age 2 would mean the resolution of all social issues. It doesn't. You are not meant to solve all of Kirkwall's problems, you are not the savior. The resolution of events in Dragon Age 2 could easily be accomplished without touching the balance of social forces. If the Chantry leads an Exalted March to deal with the mages then I do believe the problem would be solved. I have zero interest in whether you want to continue the argument. I do have an interest in making sure your suspect reasoning doesn't flood the forum. You don't need to solve all of Kirkwall's social issues, the complexity of political tensions has little to do with your lack of choices, and the game would still have ended in Act 1 if you killed Anders
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Post by marshalmoriarty on Nov 21, 2017 6:52:46 GMT
And you don't think murdering someone for no reason, who is devoting all his time to helping the downtrodden for free, who helps you with your expedition and potentially saves your sibling (again for free and at great danger to himself, since there's no guarantee the Wardens wouldn't deal with him the way Duncan dealt with Jory) would have made not only zero sense, but would have been bizzarely homicidal?Laying aside the fact he has legitimate grievance with the Templars and a just cause that he was pursuely peacefully, only retaliating if they struck first? There was no way to know he would go so far, and murder as a preventitive solution is nonsene. You would martyr him and be lynched by the poor of the city who outright warn you not to hurt him or else.
But should I expect anything more from the author of that rambling, ignorant diatribe? No solutions of course from you, but perhaps that's for the best. A man who thinks an Exalted March would solve Kirkwall's problems by massacring everyone and you wonder why I find the idea of listening you on real issues so laughable. I assume you're writing this from a secure cell in prison? I hope so, for all our sakes...
DA2 failed for you because it didn't let you play as a homicidal self righteous vigilante, who murders a friend for crimes he might commit in the future, to the outrage of everyone he's helping with his selfless acts of healing and sanctuary from oppression? Which wouldn't have worked anyway, since murdering prominent figures in a movement only emboldens them. Did the struggle for racial tolerance end with Dr King's death? Did Christianity die with Jesus? Even in WW2, the allies dismissed the idea of killing Hitler since it would do more harm than good.
You have no idea what you're talking about, but after that last post, it feels redundant to even point that out.
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Post by river82 on Nov 21, 2017 7:13:47 GMT
I have no problem murdering Anders, because Hawke is a member of the elite in town and therefore one of the oppressors. She obviously wouldn’t want to jeopardise her standing by aiding someone who’s inhabited by an out of control angry spirit. He’s reckless. He’s irresponsible. He’s selfish. Why wouldn’t I get rid of him? Drag him out of the city one moonlit night under the pretence of romance, then stab him in the back with a large sword. Make sure it sticks him in the lung then TWIST and TWIST. Oh look, his vengeful spirit is no longer a problem. Oh look, pain in the arse Anders is no longer a problem. EDIT: Blame his death on Chantry sympathisers who discovered he was a mage, or refugees, or bandits.
Killing Anders would have worked because he was only able to do what he did by operating outside the circle and with the protection of an influential member of the city (you.) The struggle might have gone on in the future, but in the game’s timeline problem solved.
You make another strawman. I never said an Exalted March would solve all of Kirkwall’s problems, I said it would solve the problem with the mages. You are not there to solve Kirkwall’s problems. You keep tying DA:2 up with the solution of social issues, and it has nothing to do with that.
DA:2 failed for me WRT player freedom because it offered no actual choices for Hawke. I never actually said it failed for me, I said it didn't offer you suitable control of the player.
Basically your 3 posts so far are full of red herrings (the emphasis of solving the social ills of Kirkwall, the article isn't about Hawke presenting an unrealistic solution and solving Kirkwall's ills and neither is my argument) strawmen, and a good bunch of emotional ranting about my completely justified wish to murder Anders painfully in the middle of the night. I honestly don’t know what to say about that.
PS: No I’m not in prison, I’m slowly making my way up the West Coast of America torturing and murdering vulnerable hitch-hikers in ways that would make demons recoil in disgust. So I guess that means I'm free and you're all screwed. Blame America's feeble police force
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 7:37:09 GMT
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 21, 2017 16:49:44 GMT
I have no problem murdering Anders, because Hawke is a member of the elite in town and therefore one of the oppressors. She obviously wouldn’t want to jeopardise her standing by aiding someone who’s inhabited by an out of control angry spirit. He’s reckless. He’s irresponsible. He’s selfish. Why wouldn’t I get rid of him? Drag him out of the city one moonlit night under the pretence of romance, then stab him in the back with a large sword. Make sure it sticks him in the lung then TWIST and TWIST. Oh look, his vengeful spirit is no longer a problem. Oh look, pain in the arse Anders is no longer a problem. EDIT: Blame his death on Chantry sympathisers who discovered he was a mage, or refugees, or bandits. This is one of the rare cases where I'd prefer to use "extrajudicial killing" rather than murder. While executing Anders is highly irregular, it's hard to imagine Hawke actually getting convicted on murder charges for it. I've come around to thinking that DA2 is fundamentally about making a mockery of CRPG player agency.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 21, 2017 17:31:15 GMT
Oh hello Lexi.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 21, 2017 18:04:42 GMT
the game would still have ended in Act 1 if you killed Anders Well, Act 2, since the qunari presence in the city has nothing to do with Anders, but that really depends. The red lyrium and Meredith's being overcome by it is still a problem, and while the whole right of annulment battle may not take place without the chantry explosion, that may just mean a longer drawn out third act to when she finally breaks, since she's been trying to get this show on the road even before that.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Nov 21, 2017 18:12:13 GMT
Full renegade Zaeed loyalty mission was probably the closest Sheppard ever got to being a villain, even killing Wrex would be understandable. Ultimately I like how dialogue is less cut and dry with Ryder, I just feel like more could be done with actual decision making. talking about leaving Zaaed to die or leaving the people to die? I take What I said back, this is the most evil Sheppard could be. Forgot this was even an option.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 21, 2017 18:17:13 GMT
Shooting Mordin is not evil. I look at it as Shepard doing what it takes to get as much help as possible to stop the reapers.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Nov 21, 2017 20:34:39 GMT
Dragon Age 2 was the flip of Andromeda, it forced you to play a morally grey and apathetic character. It probably wanted to give you tough choices but in the end it (especially compared to Origins, but Origins had a much greater development time) only limited choices. Then Anders came along and railroaded you into a specific ending ... The unreliable narrator helped a lot with that. Yes, DA2 was a terrible game to play, but the story works well in hindsight because you can adjust a lot of it. The story we see in DA2 is the story Varric told, not necessarily the truth.
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Post by clips7 on Nov 22, 2017 3:03:15 GMT
talking about leaving Zaaed to die or leaving the people to die? I take What I said back, this is the most evil Sheppard could be. Forgot this was even an option. Geez...how could you not feel for Mordin?...........musical score......camera angles. He has grown from his struggle and view with the genephage (spel) and he and Shepard have had some really intense arguments in ME2 over this issue...it was really heated during that one mission when they was looking for Mordin's protege/student/assistant. Andromeda failed on every level to have that sort of connection with it's characters and it didn't need a few games to establish that...Mordin was a character that a lot of folks liked from the jump. A compelling argument that made you think about the Krogan and dealing with Ethics issues in terms of determining the future of a species or race where it concerns the Krogan. As much flak ME3 gets for it's endings, there are multiple moments in the game that incorporate these types of memorable events and it's why people can forgive the endings because the journey itself was amazing....and also take a look at that female Krogan...THAT is how they are supposed to be visualized...not this Morda "slap you in the face crap"....it's why Andromeda failed on so many checkpoints in terms of character and story....
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 22, 2017 3:33:06 GMT
Oh hello Lexi. An apple a day keeps the doctor away. That's why she is eating all the apples so you have to attend your appointments.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 22, 2017 3:37:16 GMT
Oh hello Lexi. An apple a day keeps the doctor away. That's why she is eating all the apples so you have to attend your appointments. that it does.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 22, 2017 3:49:17 GMT
An apple a day keeps the doctor away. That's why she is eating all the apples so you have to attend your appointments. that it does. I really hope we get to see Lexi in future Mass Effect games.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 22, 2017 4:09:27 GMT
I really hope we get to see Lexi in future Mass Effect games. So do I she played her role well Chakwas would have been proud.
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Post by bohemiadrinker on Nov 22, 2017 6:01:11 GMT
About the UI: I had no problem with the crafting system whatsoever, but I found inventory managament/customization a pain in the ass. I'm on my third (and probably final and canon) playtrough, and I still can't get over the fact that I have to go to one table to craft a piece of armor, across the ship to equip it, and then change fucking floors to customize colors.
I get that there's too much to put into one single terminal aboard the ship, but having a customize table besides the the equipment one was too much to ask?
Profiles/abilities/favorites is also an awkward transition. (And on that note, I dopn't mind being limited to 3 abilities, but since I am, four favorites is way too few).
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 22, 2017 10:45:43 GMT
yep there's no difference between a Geralt who lets Dijsktra kill Roche, Ves, and Thaler and one who sticks up for his friends, none at all I was simply using Geralt as an example of contrasting styles. I was not inviting a dissertation on TW 3 or Geralt in general. I don't think that argument holds water either, the Geralt that trusts Ciri is quite different to the one that denies her agency with significant consequences for both. I can see a difference in style, but not enough to support the point you are seeking to make. May I ask, did you play TW3?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 14:35:53 GMT
I was simply using Geralt as an example of contrasting styles. I was not inviting a dissertation on TW 3 or Geralt in general. I don't think that argument holds water either, the Geralt that trusts Ciri is quite different to the one that denies her agency with significant consequences for both. I can see a difference in style, but not enough to support the point you are seeking to make. May I ask, did you play TW3? Well, colfoley simply used it as an example of a different style, so to avoid the conflicts, how about Ezio Auditor instead. No control over his personality or motivations whatsoever.
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Post by SofaJockey on Nov 22, 2017 14:46:13 GMT
I don't think that argument holds water either, the Geralt that trusts Ciri is quite different to the one that denies her agency with significant consequences for both. I can see a difference in style, but not enough to support the point you are seeking to make. May I ask, did you play TW3? Well, colfoley simply used it as an example of a different style, so to avoid the conflicts, how about Ezio Auditor instead. No control over his personality or motivations whatsoever. Fair enough. Ezio is certainly 'on a track'...
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Post by stealthfox94 on Nov 22, 2017 16:48:18 GMT
About the UI: I had no problem with the crafting system whatsoever, but I found inventory managament/customization a pain in the ass. I'm on my third (and probably final and canon) playtrough, and I still can't get over the fact that I have to go to one table to craft a piece of armor, across the ship to equip it, and then change fucking floors to customize colors. I get that there's too much to put into one single terminal aboard the ship, but having a customize table besides the the equipment one was too much to ask? Profiles/abilities/favorites is also an awkward transition. (And on that note, I dopn't mind being limited to 3 abilities, but since I am, four favorites is way too few). lol I didn't even figure out how to craft until like 20 hrs in.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 22, 2017 20:11:27 GMT
I was simply using Geralt as an example of contrasting styles. I was not inviting a dissertation on TW 3 or Geralt in general. I don't think that argument holds water either, the Geralt that trusts Ciri is quite different to the one that denies her agency with significant consequences for both. I can see a difference in style, but not enough to support the point you are seeking to make. May I ask, did you play TW3? twice. And sure you have the choice but two real problems. 1. You have no real choice but to treat her right or not. Geralt has made clear time and again how much he cares for Ciri. Plus as a bonus two of the choices that lead to her death don't make any sense at all. Though the ending of the game is a high point in alternative endings. 2. To my larger point it really doesn't matter what you do since you have zero control of Geralts character outside of the choices you make. So no control of his motivations. No control over his personality. It does not matter what you do from a roleplaying perspective...only from a I want to see alternative scenarios perspective.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 21:26:48 GMT
I don't think that argument holds water either, the Geralt that trusts Ciri is quite different to the one that denies her agency with significant consequences for both. I can see a difference in style, but not enough to support the point you are seeking to make. May I ask, did you play TW3? twice. And sure you have the choice but two real problems. 1. You have no real choice but to treat her right or not. Geralt has made clear time and again how much he cares for Ciri. Plus as a bonus two of the choices that lead to her death don't make any sense at all. Though the ending of the game is a high point in alternative endings. 2. To my larger point it really doesn't matter what you do since you have zero control of Geralts character outside of the choices you make. So no control of his motivations. No control over his personality. It does not matter what you do from a roleplaying perspective...only from a I want to see alternative scenarios perspective. No energy for this...
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Nov 22, 2017 21:43:11 GMT
Wait...
Could someone explain how the player has more agency over Ryder's personality then Geralt's or Shepard's? Honestly curious.
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Post by vonuber on Nov 22, 2017 21:49:31 GMT
I take What I said back, this is the most evil Sheppard could be. Forgot this was even an option. That's not evil; that's saving the galaxy from a plague of Krogan. Remember: 1,000 eggs per clutch from practically invulnerable beings with 1,000 year life spans.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 21:58:22 GMT
Wait... Could someone explain how the player has more agency over Ryder's personality then Geralt's or Shepard's? Honestly curious. There isn't any. I've debated this with colfoley before and I'm not about to get in to it again with him...
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