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Post by themikefest on Nov 28, 2017 12:49:27 GMT
Gerrel had an itchy trigger finger. I'm sure he would have fired at the dreadnought if his mother was on the dreadnought. I get that he's frustrated the geth are destroying his ships, but without Shepard, he and the rest of his species would not survive much longer. Its too bad there wasn't an option for Shepard to refuse helping them any longer. Once the quarians are off the ship, Shepard gets a message to talk with the asari councilor.
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abedsbrother
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Abedsbrother
XBL Gamertag: DonDiego256
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Post by abedsbrother on Nov 28, 2017 18:31:08 GMT
- punching reporters - There was a ruckus caused. Hacket "smoothed it out" in ME1. In ME2 and ME3, one Shepard's closest associates on the Citadel happens to be in charge of that district's C-sec division - and Bailey was already making deals for personal and political gain. - unprofessional to galactic representatives - human arrogance. They're famous for it in the ME universe. A minor point, anyway. "Help, that human was rude to me!" isn't a very convincing complaint. - working with a known terrorist org - actually, not known. Aside from its status as a rogue black-ops unit, few people knew what Cerberus was actually doing. And knowledge even of that status was limited to the higher reaches of the Alliance. - renouncing all ties with said galactic government - choosing to reinstate Shepard's spectre status in ME2 definitely proves your point. Which is pretty much equivalent to little to no consequences. In ME3, Shepard could punch a Quarian in a gut because he was angry at him and didn't suffer any consequences. And there was no reason for Shepard to punch Han Gerrel and kick him off the Normandy, I suppose.
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heathenoxman
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: rohlfdawg
PSN: rohlfdawg83
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Post by heathenoxman on Nov 28, 2017 22:25:48 GMT
Things also come down to personal preference, and how well the writer's vision meshes with your own. The writer's vision shouldn't matter at all. As long as the writer and I understand the use of language similarly (whether questions can entail assertions, for example), then I'm free to roleplay my character. It only fails when the UI obfuscates options (as the paraphrases do) or if the developers choose to have the protagonist act without my input. And then the game will fail litrrally no matter what the writers have the character do. Any action I didn't choose is a bad action, even if I would have chosen it given the option. The only time a writer's vision doesn't matter is when you're playing a tabletop RPG.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Nov 29, 2017 22:48:52 GMT
The only time a writer's vision doesn't matter is when you're playing a tabletop RPG. If an RPG is well-designed, there will always be room for roleplaying in and around the writer's vision. We were talking about player agency and the opportunity to roleplay. What specifically we can do might be constrained by the writer's vision, but not whether we can roleplay while doing it. I would also argue that the GM's vision is even more constraining in a tabletop game, as the player needs his tacit permission every step of the way.
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...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 29, 2017 23:02:35 GMT
Some wiggle room is not the same as the devs' allowing total freedom. There are always going to be restrictions to push the narrative forward. And Bioware is actually on the more restrictive side because that's the trade off for an engaging plot and charismatic hero.
Said wiggle room can make all the difference though. So it's a fine line to walk.
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Nov 29, 2017 23:56:18 GMT
Some wiggle room is not the same as the devs' allowing total freedom. There are always going to be restrictions to push the narrative forward. And Bioware is actually on the more restrictive side because that's the trade off for an engaging plot and charismatic hero. Said wiggle room can make all the difference though. So it's a fine line to walk. It matters that we get to choose. No matter how restrictive the set of alternatives, it matters that we get to choose.
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Post by clips7 on Nov 30, 2017 3:28:29 GMT
Some wiggle room is not the same as the devs' allowing total freedom. There are always going to be restrictions to push the narrative forward. And Bioware is actually on the more restrictive side because that's the trade off for an engaging plot and charismatic hero. Said wiggle room can make all the difference though. So it's a fine line to walk. I agree if i'm understanding this properly. There can truly be no real freedom because the character himself has to have restrictions based on the narrative and story. I'm sure there have been plenty of times where we see games or movies where we say "damn...why didn't so-in-so just do this?".....but in thinking that and in some poorly written games or movies, if the character did do such an action, the said movie or game would practically be over....so characters do and say things for a reason and they are restricted to certain actions to compliment the story or narrative. Now i have seen scenarios where characters are basically locked out from pursuing further quests or storylines due to a particular action...a character may pick a decision that immediately closes a side mission and for the rest of the game you cannot pursue anything regarding that path....what would be interesting is that if somehow in making that decision somehow affects the game and your storyline later on in the game. I just say that to generally say that nothing is really engulfed in total freedom as there are design mechanics set from the jump that implement restrictions on the characters in some compacity to compliment the story.
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Post by vallixas on Dec 8, 2017 9:22:28 GMT
I will give you the level design. Andromeda took influence from Inquisition, which had incredible breath taking scaling. When you saw a giant statue on a mountain in the distance you actually felt that distance, you felt like it was, huge. Just like in Andromeda when you see the remnant ship, you're like goddamn, this shit is huge, i'm an insignificant ant.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 8, 2017 20:01:51 GMT
I will give you the level design. Andromeda took influence from Inquisition, which had incredible breath taking scaling. When you saw a giant statue on a mountain in the distance you actually felt that distance, you felt like it was, huge. Just like in Andromeda when you see the remnant ship, you're like goddamn, this shit is huge, i'm an insignificant ant. highly reminiscent of B5 actually.
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Post by vonuber on Dec 8, 2017 20:35:33 GMT
It matters that we get to choose. No matter how restrictive the set of alternatives, it matters that we get to choose. Well Mass Effect isn't exactly that, is it? Where's my option in ME2 to tell TIM to shove his plan up is arse, rejoin the Council as a SPECTRE, then hunt him down and fine out what he knows?
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 8, 2017 20:50:14 GMT
It matters that we get to choose. No matter how restrictive the set of alternatives, it matters that we get to choose. Well Mass Effect isn't exactly that, is it? Where's my option in ME2 to tell TIM to shove his plan up is arse, rejoin the Council as a SPECTRE, then hunt him down and fine out what he knows? Your response suggests you think I'm asking for limitless freedom, which is nothing like what I said. It's okay that the writers limit us to a narrow range. I'm saying it's important that we get to choose within that narrow range. For example, in ME1 we have to tell Udina about Tali (this wasn't at all clear from the paraphrases). I would like the game to allow us to choose how we do that, rather than surprising is with it. The player's character should NEVER surprise the player.
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Post by vonuber on Dec 8, 2017 21:14:08 GMT
The player's character should NEVER surprise the player. In my example, Shep joining with Cerberus was a surprise to me as my Shep spent her time hunting down Cerberus - then suddenly she is working for them for 'reasons'. It was out of character railroading, pure and simple.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Dec 8, 2017 21:17:34 GMT
The player's character should NEVER surprise the player. In my example, Shep joining with Cerberus was a surprise to me as my Shep spent her time hunting down Cerberus - then suddenly she is working for them for 'reasons'. It was out of character railroading, pure and simple. particularly for my Sole Survivor Shepard who met Toombs in ME1...
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 8, 2017 21:55:24 GMT
There should have been a non-standard game over for that. Shepard says "no," walks out the door, roll credits. Maybe not even a game over if we contrive to have the SR-2 blown up at the end of ME2 -- say, they escape the Collector base in a stolen Collector ship and leave the wreck of the SR-2 behind. Since all the squadmates can die anyway, there's no conceptual problem with having Shepard never meet them. Just need some alternate dialogue for the start of ME3 and a different ship.
This problem is conceptually similar to DAA, since not all Wardens would keep the job. But in DAA you can sub in a different PC.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,290 Likes: 50,645
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Post by Iakus on Dec 8, 2017 22:12:43 GMT
There should have been a non-standard game over for that. Shepard says "no," walks out the door, roll credits. Maybe not even a game over if we contrive to have the SR-2 blown up at the end of ME2 -- say, they escape the Collector base in a stolen Collector ship and leave the wreck of the SR-2 behind. Since all the squadmates can die anyway, there's no conceptual problem with having Shepard never meet them. Just need some alternate dialogue for the start of ME3 and a different ship. This problem is conceptually similar to DAA, since not all Wardens would keep the job. But in DAA you can sub in a different PC. Or maybe come up with a more logical reason for Shepard and Cerberus to team up than *KABOOOM!* "What happened?" "You've been dead for two years" "Cool!"
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Post by themikefest on Dec 8, 2017 23:06:12 GMT
In my example, Shep joining with Cerberus was a surprise to me as my Shep spent her time hunting down Cerberus - then suddenly she is working for them for 'reasons'. It was out of character railroading, pure and simple. My Shepard liked working with Cerberus. Better than that circus calling itself Alliance. They made no effort to confirm Shepard's death. **** them.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Dec 8, 2017 23:13:04 GMT
In my example, Shep joining with Cerberus was a surprise to me as my Shep spent her time hunting down Cerberus - then suddenly she is working for them for 'reasons'. It was out of character railroading, pure and simple. My Shepard liked working with Cerberus. Better than that circus calling itself Alliance. They made no effort to confirm Shepard's death. **** them. It's not entirely the Alliance's fault. Liara did steal Shepard's corpse after all because she's a deranged stalker whose probably secretly a necrophiliac.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 8, 2017 23:13:13 GMT
In my example, Shep joining with Cerberus was a surprise to me as my Shep spent her time hunting down Cerberus - then suddenly she is working for them for 'reasons'. It was out of character railroading, pure and simple. My Shepard liked working with Cerberus. Better than that circus calling itself Alliance. They made no effort to confirm Shepard's death. **** them. while i agree with you on what my shepard wanted it was still railroading.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 8, 2017 23:23:29 GMT
Or maybe come up with a more logical reason for Shepard and Cerberus to team up than Simple. Have Shepard survive instead of dying after the SR1 is destroyed. For the next two years, he/she uses a shuttle to get around to try and find a way to stop the reapers. Eventually Shepard meets Miranda, who represents Cerberus, who tells Shepard that there have been reports of human colonists that are being kidnapped and the Alliance refuses to do anything. Miranda mentions that Shepard would be provided with a new ship and all the resources needed to find out what has happened to the colonists. Shepard confronts the Alliance. They give some pathetic excuse, or more like deflect the question. Realizing the Alliance doesn't want to help their own, or rather not make any effort to find out what's going on, Shepard flips them the bird and takes Miranda's offer to find out what's going on. The Alliance will make a fuss, but Shepard will tell them that at least Cerberus is willing to do something about the abductions. My Shepard wouldn't have a problem with dumping the Alliance to work with Cerberus.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 8, 2017 23:28:16 GMT
It's not entirely the Alliance's fault. Liara did steal Shepard's corpse after all because she's a deranged stalker whose probably secretly a necrophiliac. I would be curious what answer smurfette would give if Shepard had the opportunity to ask her why she made no attempt to tell anyone that Shepard's body was in Cerberus hands.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Dec 8, 2017 23:38:01 GMT
It's not entirely the Alliance's fault. Liara did steal Shepard's corpse after all because she's a deranged stalker whose probably secretly a necrophiliac. I would be curious what answer smurfette would give if Shepard had the opportunity to ask her why she made no attempt to tell anyone that Shepard's body was in Cerberus hands. "I finally wanted you all to myself, Shepard. Besides, it's not as if dead girls/boys can say no." And then Shepard would proceed to shoot sick freak in her head.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 8, 2017 23:39:47 GMT
while i agree with you on what my shepard wanted it was still railroading. I don't see it that way since my Shepard had no problem working with them. What would have happened if Shepard was able to walk away from Cerberus and back to the Alliance? I would imagine a lot more colonists, then what is seen in the game, would have been abducted. Would the Alliance have known about the derelict reaper? If not, no IFF to get through the omega 4 relay.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,290 Likes: 50,645
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Post by Iakus on Dec 9, 2017 0:11:09 GMT
Or maybe come up with a more logical reason for Shepard and Cerberus to team up than Simple. Have Shepard survive instead of dying after the SR1 is destroyed. For the next two years, he/she uses a shuttle to get around to try and find a way to stop the reapers. Eventually Shepard meets Miranda, who represents Cerberus, who tells Shepard that there have been reports of human colonists that are being kidnapped and the Alliance refuses to do anything. Miranda mentions that Shepard would be provided with a new ship and all the resources needed to find out what has happened to the colonists. Shepard confronts the Alliance. They give some pathetic excuse, or more like deflect the question. Realizing the Alliance doesn't want to help their own, or rather not make any effort to find out what's going on, Shepard flips them the bird and takes Miranda's offer to find out what's going on. The Alliance will make a fuss, but Shepard will tell them that at least Cerberus is willing to do something about the abductions. My Shepard wouldn't have a problem with dumping the Alliance to work with Cerberus. See, was that so hard? Or, as another option, have Shepard (with Hackett and/or Anderson's under-the-table tacit approval) join them with the intention of finding out what they know, and perhaps form a temporary alliance. An example of Teeth-Clenched Teamwork I have no problem with Shepard having he option to leap into bed with Cerberus. But there should have been options for those who look upon them with suspicion to do so. It's not the idea of having to work with Cerberus that was the problem, it was the rushed, railroaded manner in which we found ourselves in that situation.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 9, 2017 3:21:47 GMT
I would be curious what answer smurfette would give if Shepard had the opportunity to ask her why she made no attempt to tell anyone that Shepard's body was in Cerberus hands. "I finally wanted you all to myself, Shepard. Besides, it's not as if dead girls/boys can say no." And then Shepard would proceed to shoot sick freak in her head. A bullet is to quick. You can't savior all those little emotions. It's better to use a knife. And don't forget to carve a smile on her face.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 9, 2017 4:24:08 GMT
My Shepard liked working with Cerberus. Better than that circus calling itself Alliance. They made no effort to confirm Shepard's death. **** them. It's not entirely the Alliance's fault. Liara did steal Shepard's corpse after all because she's a deranged stalker whose probably secretly a necrophiliac. 50 credits says she erased the OG Shadow Broker’s video surveillance of her....activities with the body.
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