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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Nov 22, 2017 22:03:38 GMT
Wait... Could someone explain how the player has more agency over Ryder's personality then Geralt's or Shepard's? Honestly curious. There isn't any. I've debated this with colfoley before and I'm not about to get in to it again with him... Oh, well, that's to bad. I really wanted to know. Could you at least give me one of his arguments?
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Nov 22, 2017 22:37:55 GMT
Wait... Could someone explain how the player has more agency over Ryder's personality then Geralt's or Shepard's? Honestly curious. I can't speak for Geralt (I have extremely limited Witcher experience), but with Shepard I clearly had less control simply by virtue of the lower quality paraphrases (so it was harder to tell what option I was choosing), the intentionally obfuscatory interrupt system, and (in ME3) the incessant cinematics that made Shepard behave entirely unlike the character I had designed.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Nov 22, 2017 23:00:15 GMT
Wait... Could someone explain how the player has more agency over Ryder's personality then Geralt's or Shepard's? Honestly curious. I can't speak for Geralt (I have extremely limited Witcher experience), but with Shepard I clearly had less control simply by virtue of the lower quality paraphrases (so it was harder to tell what option I was choosing), the intentionally obfuscatory interrupt system, and (in ME3) the incessant cinematics that made Shepard behave entirely unlike the character I had designed. Alright, that makes sense, but I guess I just fail to see how Ryder is any different. I still had issues with the dialogue choices ultimately not being what I expected to be when Ryder owns their mouth and autodialogue screwing over my roleplaying, but whatever. Am happy that you at least managed to enjoy the game.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 22, 2017 23:07:17 GMT
Wait... Could someone explain how the player has more agency over Ryder's personality then Geralt's or Shepard's? Honestly curious. I'm also curious what the evidence based arguments are to players having more control of either the peraonality for Geralt or Shepard over Ryder.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 23:23:04 GMT
I played Shepard as two extremes, Paragon and renegade, so hers and his personality felt more defined than a more malleable Ryder. But then again, it was my intention to be a Paragon or Renegade, so I am not sure what’s the egg and what’s the chicken. The dream sequences in ME3 were not conductive to RP for me either. Oh, probably, I just did not like them.
I still feel I had an ample ability to headcanon how Shepard felt and what s/he wanted and was like based on the game’s framework, though not as much as I could with Ryder.
I think if I started talking about one of my Ryder’s or Shepard’s without using their last name, other players will not recognize them as their character.
One thing I know for sure, I cannot roleplay a character like Ezio at all. No headcanon at all. What I see is what I get, and I am just watching, not participating. We will all describe Ezio the same way and will instantly recognize each other’s Ezio as the same Ezio in my game too.
Zachariah Mancer was sort of half-way, as his likeable mature personality got imprinted on everything, even if he murdered for more resources and sold out to the mafia. I could head-canon a little, but I think multiple player’s descriptions would not be very divergent and will still be recognizable as the same guy.
If you guys want, you can apply the same test to Geralt. If you swapped Geralts between each other, would you still recognize him as the same guy you’re playing?
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Post by bohemiadrinker on Nov 23, 2017 5:02:59 GMT
About the UI: I had no problem with the crafting system whatsoever, but I found inventory managament/customization a pain in the ass. I'm on my third (and probably final and canon) playtrough, and I still can't get over the fact that I have to go to one table to craft a piece of armor, across the ship to equip it, and then change fucking floors to customize colors. I get that there's too much to put into one single terminal aboard the ship, but having a customize table besides the the equipment one was too much to ask? Profiles/abilities/favorites is also an awkward transition. (And on that note, I dopn't mind being limited to 3 abilities, but since I am, four favorites is way too few). lol I didn't even figure out how to craft until like 20 hrs in.
Oh, I agree that there's is a lot in the crafting table and that it's not particularly intuitive. But i fert that stuff was well explained enough that I could understand it if I just went over it thouroughly, which I did, because I had heard of "augmentations" and I had to have a hurricane that shot sticky grenades.
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Post by river82 on Nov 23, 2017 5:39:45 GMT
Wait... Could someone explain how the player has more agency over Ryder's personality then Geralt's or Shepard's? Honestly curious. For future reference "player agency" refers to whether actions and decisions of the player (choices) affect the world around them. It refers to how much control players have over the actions of the character, and the degree with which those actions alter either the narrative or the world. Control over a character's personality alone isn't "player agency".
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Post by Steelcan on Nov 23, 2017 15:15:50 GMT
Wait... Could someone explain how the player has more agency over Ryder's personality then Geralt's or Shepard's? Honestly curious. I'm also curious what the evidence based arguments are to players having more control of either the peraonality for Geralt or Shepard over Ryder. I think this is going to be a quite subjective area in general. I certainly felt like I had very little control over Ryder's personality and that I was shoehorned into a certain kind of character, reckless, foolhardy, but a heart of gold and all that tripe. Shepard I felt a bit more control over because I could actually be a jerk when I wanted to, heroic on the occasions I wanted to, self interested when I wanted to, and not just in the confines of a conversation with one sleazy politician. As for Geralt, he's more defined than any of the others up to a certain point, it does fall to the player though to iron out the finer points. Ie, how seriosuly does he take Witcher neutrality, and so on.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Nov 23, 2017 20:21:05 GMT
I can't speak for Geralt (I have extremely limited Witcher experience), but with Shepard I clearly had less control simply by virtue of the lower quality paraphrases (so it was harder to tell what option I was choosing), the intentionally obfuscatory interrupt system, and (in ME3) the incessant cinematics that made Shepard behave entirely unlike the character I had designed. Alright, that makes sense, but I guess I just fail to see how Ryder is any different. I still had issues with the dialogue choices ultimately not being what I expected to be when Ryder owns their mouth and autodialogue screwing over my roleplaying, but whatever. Am happy that you at least managed to enjoy the game. Shepard made it clear right from the start of each game that I wasn't in control. Ryder let me think I was for about 8 hours. And then... not so much. It's still my favourite ME game, but I somehow doubt I'll finish it.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Nov 23, 2017 20:23:04 GMT
Wait... Could someone explain how the player has more agency over Ryder's personality then Geralt's or Shepard's? Honestly curious. For future reference "player agency" refers to whether actions and decisions of the player (choices) affect the world around them. It refers to how much control players have over the actions of the character, and the degree with which those actions alter either the narrative or the world. Control over a character's personality alone isn't "player agency". I think you're blurring the line between player agency and character agency. Player agency (being able to make actual choices) is far more important to me than character agency (the character having an intended effect on the world).
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Post by river82 on Nov 23, 2017 20:32:10 GMT
I think you're blurring the line between player agency and character agency. Player agency (being able to make actual choices) is far more important to me than character agency (the character having an intended effect on the world). Nah, character agency doesn't get used as much in games but it's often talked about if you're writing a novel and character development. "Agency" is defined in the psychological sense as "the degree to which an individual has the ability to make decisions about their life." "Personal agency" refers to your ability to act independently and take control of your life, "character agency" refers to the characters ability to do the same and "player agency" refers to the players ability to do the same with their character. Agency always refers to actions and er ... consequences, for lack of a better word, all that's different is who it refers to (player, character etc.) Also I suspected you might feel the loss of control over Ryder after about 10 hours I also enjoyed the game for about that long, after that the limitations really start to become apparent.
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Post by river82 on Nov 23, 2017 20:36:43 GMT
Erm, it should be noted that with character and player agency it tends to be judged on how their actions (a character's actions, or the character the player is playing) affects the plot or world. With character agency it is often talked about with how a character affects the plot through their actions or something similar, and with player agency how the player's choices and decisions affect the world or narrative.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Nov 24, 2017 5:03:23 GMT
Nah, character agency doesn't get used as much in games but it's often talked about if you're writing a novel and character development. "Agency" is defined in the psychological sense as "the degree to which an individual has the ability to make decisions about their life." "Personal agency" refers to your ability to act independently and take control of your life, "character agency" refers to the characters ability to do the same and "player agency" refers to the players ability to do the same with their character. Agency always refers to actions and er ... consequences, for lack of a better word, all that's different is who it refers to (player, character etc.) Also I suspected you might feel the loss of control over Ryder after about 10 hours I also enjoyed the game for about that long, after that the limitations really start to become apparent. It's not my life; it's the character's life. I'm trying to separate the thing the player does (the roleplaying of his character and the choice of actions on his behalf) from the things the character does (taking actions in the world in which he lives). A character can have agency in a novel, even though the story is completely linear and can't be changed by the reader, and a player can have agency in a game when where the character cannot affect the world in which he lives. These are two different things. Asking that the player be able to affect the character's world doesn't even make sense unless we're talking about installing mods. I am concerned with player agency. I want to make decisions on behalf of my character, which requires I be the one populating my character's state-of-mind. I decide what he wants to do and how he reacts to stuff and what his opinions are. This is why the paraphrase is bad, because it causes me not to understand why the character is saying things. This does not require that I be able to make the character do whatever I can imagine, just that I be the one choosing, even if it is among limited options. It does not matter to me how much the character can affect the world. It matters to me how many different character personalities I can implement.
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Post by heathenoxman on Nov 24, 2017 5:10:16 GMT
I think you're blurring the line between player agency and character agency. Player agency (being able to make actual choices) is far more important to me than character agency (the character having an intended effect on the world). Nah, character agency doesn't get used as much in games but it's often talked about if you're writing a novel and character development. "Agency" is defined in the psychological sense as "the degree to which an individual has the ability to make decisions about their life." "Personal agency" refers to your ability to act independently and take control of your life, "character agency" refers to the characters ability to do the same and "player agency" refers to the players ability to do the same with their character. Agency always refers to actions and er ... consequences, for lack of a better word, all that's different is who it refers to (player, character etc.) Also I suspected you might feel the loss of control over Ryder after about 10 hours I also enjoyed the game for about that long, after that the limitations really start to become apparent. I felt I had a lot of control over Ryder. Then again, I'm a silly, irreverent douche, so I'm sure my perspective is skewed. Things also come down to personal preference, and how well the writer's vision meshes with your own.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Nov 24, 2017 10:43:32 GMT
Things also come down to personal preference, and how well the writer's vision meshes with your own. The writer's vision shouldn't matter at all. As long as the writer and I understand the use of language similarly (whether questions can entail assertions, for example), then I'm free to roleplay my character. It only fails when the UI obfuscates options (as the paraphrases do) or if the developers choose to have the protagonist act without my input. And then the game will fail litrrally no matter what the writers have the character do. Any action I didn't choose is a bad action, even if I would have chosen it given the option.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2017 15:29:10 GMT
Alright, that makes sense, but I guess I just fail to see how Ryder is any different. I still had issues with the dialogue choices ultimately not being what I expected to be when Ryder owns their mouth and autodialogue screwing over my roleplaying, but whatever. Am happy that you at least managed to enjoy the game. Shepard made it clear right from the start of each game that I wasn't in control. Ryder let me think I was for about 8 hours. And then... not so much. It's still my favourite ME game, but I somehow doubt I'll finish it. Well, see how it goes. There is some nifty stuff in latter game, like my beloved Kadara crisis & a couple of awesome locations you get to go with the main story And, yup, loyalty missions, but you might not like those because they do need you feel like you care about the comps, so...
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Nov 24, 2017 20:55:30 GMT
Shepard made it clear right from the start of each game that I wasn't in control. Ryder let me think I was for about 8 hours. And then... not so much. It's still my favourite ME game, but I somehow doubt I'll finish it. Well, see how it goes. There is some nifty stuff in latter game, like my beloved Kadara crisis & a couple of awesome locations you get to go with the main story And, yup, loyalty missions, but you might not like those because they do need you feel like you care about the comps, so... ME2 let me do loyalty missions for my own reasons. Perhaps MEA will as well (assuming I stick with the game that long - I have Divinity Original Sin to play).
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Post by Blast Processor on Nov 25, 2017 2:25:13 GMT
This is precisely the problem. The problem is a lot of people have expecations for their role playing experiences, and one of them seems to be 'I want the ability to play as muhahahaha eviiilll', which while I do understand the impulse for ninty nine percent of humanity throughout all of history that is not the case. Sometimes its even bad story telling to have villains be that mustache twirlingly evil. So yes, Ryder cannot be as malicious, arrogant, trolley, or borderline psychotic as Shepard...but that is not exactly a good measuring stick to use. Ryder is far more realstic, and hence a far better RP Protagonist (IMO) precisely because he is a normal human...much like the Inquisitor. Not super good and angellic, but not super evil, but real and down to earth. I'd argue that Ryder not being "allowed" to be malicious, arrogant, troll-y, or borderline psychotic makes him / her less realistic, not more - and therefore potentially less interesting to role-play as. Each to their own. Plus, there is only a handful of instances in the ME Trilogy that can truly be described a "Evil." So I'm not sure why there is this straw man going about that we all want to be evil tyrants. And on that note I just finished a renegade playthrough of ME1 in which I saved the Council, I just about died during the Councillors big speech at the end of the game. There basically, "humanity is a bunch of assholes, but we love you motha******!" LOL.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 25, 2017 5:20:25 GMT
Nah, character agency doesn't get used as much in games but it's often talked about if you're writing a novel and character development. "Agency" is defined in the psychological sense as "the degree to which an individual has the ability to make decisions about their life." "Personal agency" refers to your ability to act independently and take control of your life, "character agency" refers to the characters ability to do the same and "player agency" refers to the players ability to do the same with their character. Agency always refers to actions and er ... consequences, for lack of a better word, all that's different is who it refers to (player, character etc.) Also I suspected you might feel the loss of control over Ryder after about 10 hours I also enjoyed the game for about that long, after that the limitations really start to become apparent. I felt I had a lot of control over Ryder. Then again, I'm a silly, irreverent douche, so I'm sure my perspective is skewed. Things also come down to personal preference, and how well the writer's vision meshes with your own. There's one moment in particular in the game where I really wished there was something more that could be done, and it's with those two scavengers looting the corpse they probably created in Kadara's slum underbelly. These two bums look at someone decked to the 9's in military hardware and tell them to fuck off, when it would be no trouble at all to dunk their faces in that toxic pool just a few yards away.
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Post by melbella on Nov 25, 2017 17:05:31 GMT
Yeah, there are a few of those "don't rock the boat" moments that can make one facepalm. At least with the beating going on up top when you first arrive, you don't have any weapons whereas the "guards" do, so despite it rankling, it's probably best to not get involved in that one.
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Nov 27, 2017 19:53:25 GMT
I have just begun my very first attempt to play MEA. Based on the first 5 hours, I offer my first impressions: It seems as though I have more control over Ryder in conversation than I did with Shepard. MEA's level design is better than anything in ME since the wilderness in ME1's uncharted worlds. The lack of tactical pause in combat hasn't been a big deal yet, but I expect it will be because... ...the UI is terrible. BioWare has gotten pretty bad at UI is recent years (their best was NWN, released 15 years ago), but this is just horrific. Where's my mouse cursor? I have to hotkey everything? Triggering abilities is now a huge pain, and the lack of pause will make that worse as I progress, I imagine. I'd heard there were graphical glitches, and while they don't bother me (I don't think modern graphics worth anything close to what they cost to implement) I am genuinely surprised at how common and glaring they are. Good thing for me I don't care about visuals.
Edit: so I'm pretty sure this will be my favourite Mass Effect game, despite them making combat worse by taking out the pause.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 28, 2017 7:44:53 GMT
I'd argue that Ryder not being "allowed" to be malicious, arrogant, troll-y, or borderline psychotic makes him / her less realistic, not more - and therefore potentially less interesting to role-play as. Each to their own. Plus, there is only a handful of instances in the ME Trilogy that can truly be described a "Evil." So I'm not sure why there is this straw man going about that we all want to be evil tyrants. And on that note I just finished a renegade playthrough of ME1 in which I saved the Council, I just about died during the Councillors big speech at the end of the game. There basically, "humanity is a bunch of assholes, but we love you motha******!" LOL. To be fair I suppose this does come from the conversations I have had with people advocating the game should have given us an option to assassinate Tann and basically take over the Iniative with a benevolent Ryder dictatorship.
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Post by smilesja on Nov 28, 2017 8:13:14 GMT
The problem is Shepard could do things, without any consequences, which make no sense. IE punching reporters, IE being repeatedly unprofessional to Galactic representatives, IE working with a known terrorist organisation and renouncing all ties with said galactic government. Any one of those things should have gotten them at the least severely reprimanded, but more likely fired or thrown in jail and its just...hand waved away because 'dammit we have to give the players a choice to act like complete fools'. And it also had the effect of making Shepard, especially later on, bi polar, and not nuanced. Either mind numbingly goody too shoes, or completley and bizarely dickish. - punching reporters - There was a ruckus caused. Hacket "smoothed it out" in ME1. In ME2 and ME3, one Shepard's closest associates on the Citadel happens to be in charge of that district's C-sec division - and Bailey was already making deals for personal and political gain. - unprofessional to galactic representatives - human arrogance. They're famous for it in the ME universe. A minor point, anyway. "Help, that human was rude to me!" isn't a very convincing complaint. - working with a known terrorist org - actually, not known. Aside from its status as a rogue black-ops unit, few people knew what Cerberus was actually doing. And knowledge even of that status was limited to the higher reaches of the Alliance. - renouncing all ties with said galactic government - choosing to reinstate Shepard's spectre status in ME2 definitely proves your point. Which is pretty much equivalent to little to no consequences. In ME3, Shepard could punch a Quarian in a gut because he was angry at him and didn't suffer any consequences.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 28, 2017 8:22:54 GMT
- punching reporters - There was a ruckus caused. Hacket "smoothed it out" in ME1. In ME2 and ME3, one Shepard's closest associates on the Citadel happens to be in charge of that district's C-sec division - and Bailey was already making deals for personal and political gain. - unprofessional to galactic representatives - human arrogance. They're famous for it in the ME universe. A minor point, anyway. "Help, that human was rude to me!" isn't a very convincing complaint. - working with a known terrorist org - actually, not known. Aside from its status as a rogue black-ops unit, few people knew what Cerberus was actually doing. And knowledge even of that status was limited to the higher reaches of the Alliance. - renouncing all ties with said galactic government - choosing to reinstate Shepard's spectre status in ME2 definitely proves your point. Which is pretty much equivalent to little to no consequences. In ME3, Shepard could punch a Quarian in a gut because he was angry at him and didn't suffer any consequences. Mind you I did like that choice and thought it was well done. Granted it didn't make much sense punching an armored suit and not breaking Shepard's hand but Korus was a bit of a jerk there and Shepard was making sure he suffered the consequences of his actions and kicking him off her ship. One of the renegade interrupts I still do even in my canon PTs with my Paragrade Abigail.
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sjsharp2010
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 28, 2017 12:36:49 GMT
Which is pretty much equivalent to little to no consequences. In ME3, Shepard could punch a Quarian in a gut because he was angry at him and didn't suffer any consequences. Mind you I did like that choice and thought it was well done. Granted it didn't make much sense punching an armored suit and not breaking Shepard's hand but Korus was a bit of a jerk there and Shepard was making sure he suffered the consequences of his actions and kicking him off her ship. One of the renegade interrupts I still do even in my canon PTs with my Paragrade Abigail. Yeah it is well done putting the war at risk just to try to gain a tactical advantage. I can see why Han Gerrel did it but it wasd a bad move. Especially after already agreeing to the plan Shepard had laid down
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