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Post by sugarless on Feb 22, 2018 6:36:19 GMT
I'm on board with this one. Unless I played Renegade/pro-Cerberus in ME2, Jack's reaction makes no sense. Typically, I'm anti-Cerberus throughout ME2. Even if I weren't, though, Jack would still be in lockup if TIM hadn't wanted her recruited. Really because it seems pretty natural for her. A rough and crass person who struggles to express herself being pissed when Cerberus goons show up trying to take her students. The first instance of her showing she is learning to connect to people again rather then drive them away. That regardless of how pro for against Cerberus your are. The fact is you worked with and help them get to were they are today. You gave Cerberus access they needed. A slap in the face sounds appropriate for paragon. Renegade she should hit you with a biotic attack and send you across the room. Worked with Cerberus because a paragon Shepard had no other choice and states many times she/he is only cooperating with Cerberus to stop the collectors. So yeah that slap in the face is the last thing Shep deserves at Grissom Academy, when saving Jack's sorry ass again.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 22, 2018 7:17:27 GMT
The lack of choice in who to take on as teammates in ME3. Actually, the lack of choice in changing some outcomes for some characters altogether. Thanemancers could have been thrown a bone in avoiding his death as an option and getting treatment until a cure was found. And I'd have given up every upgrade if I could boot Liara to the Crucible for literally any of the other ME2 teammates. Samara, Jack, Zaeed, Kasumi, Legion, Jacob, Grunt and Miranda. Toss out EDI's body and I'd be happy.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 22, 2018 8:20:53 GMT
So much good bad stuff in here. Let's see. - Miranda's ass shots. One of the few moments in my decade long gaming career where I felt that a game actively insulted me. Almost as if it sidled up to me with this really skeevy grin, nudged me a few times and whispered "tee hee hee, I know why you're really playing this game. Tee hee hee." - Pretty much everything about ME's firearms/thermal clips lore is stupid. Ridiculously overengineered weapons that don't hold a candle to present day guns, with stats that contradict the lore. If thermal clips were truly universal, pistols should have a huge magazine count because they generate way less heat over time than an assault rifle or machine gun does. But clip sizes are pretty much the same as in present day firearms, with pistols and shotguns having small clip sizes and assault rifles big ones. Thermal clips are standard ammunition in everything but name. - The forced cutscene incompetence that was apparently required to make Kai Leng look awesome. That scene where he's hanging on to Shepard's shuttle made me furious. All that Shepard needed to do was hit the brakes and let Sir Isaac Newton take care of things, but nooo... and let's not even mention Thessia. - Cerberus, that human extremist splinter group, apparently being a threat on par with the reapers.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 22, 2018 13:28:37 GMT
Really because it seems pretty natural for her. A rough and crass person who struggles to express herself being pissed when Cerberus goons show up trying to take her students. The first instance of her showing she is learning to connect to people again rather then drive them away. That regardless of how pro for against Cerberus your are. The fact is you worked with and help them get to were they are today. You gave Cerberus access they needed. A slap in the face sounds appropriate for paragon. Renegade she should hit you with a biotic attack and send you across the room. Worked with Cerberus because a paragon Shepard had no other choice and states many times she/he is only cooperating with Cerberus to stop the collectors. So yeah that slap in the face is the last thing Shep deserves at Grissom Academy, when saving Jack's sorry ass again. Still gave TIM access to the collector base and all technology or scraps of technology within. It doesn't matter how noble the cause the consequences are what matters. But to really drive home the point the Reapers are doing the same thing by that logic you have shown. They have no other choice but to harvest the galaxy to stop the conflict that would wipe out all organic life. The consequences of that action being the death of billions of people every 50,000 years but really they have no choice this is the last ditch effort to stop the problem. If the intent and not consequences are all that matters then the Reapers are the true protagonists and Shepard is really the antagonist of the series. Which is very good because not many if any games I know lets you play as the villian.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 22, 2018 14:01:31 GMT
- Pretty much everything about ME's firearms/thermal clips lore is stupid. Ridiculously overengineered weapons that don't hold a candle to present day guns, with stats that contradict the lore. If thermal clips were truly universal, pistols should have a huge magazine count because they generate way less heat over time than an assault rifle or machine gun does. But clip sizes are pretty much the same as in present day firearms, with pistols and shotguns having small clip sizes and assault rifles big ones. Thermal clips are standard ammunition in everything but name. Game play mechanics often contradict or don't line perfectly with lore. But the treating of a thermal clip like an ammo counter is a game play mechanic. If they didn't then the game wouldn't be balanced at all. Game play balance is a necessary evil that often times requires them to ignore lore in a game. Similar actions happen in movies all the time. - Cerberus, that human extremist splinter group, apparently being a threat on par with the reapers. They aren't on par with the Reapers. This is shown when the Alliance finally tracks TIM down and takes out his base of operation. They are only a threat because the Reapers are literally decimating troops, land and civilian populations requiring the full effort of every race to be devoted to fighting them to slow their advance. At that point someone armed with a grapefruit spoon would be a threat simply because all the other resources are devoted to holding back another threat.
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Post by larsdt on Feb 22, 2018 14:17:10 GMT
The Avenger and/or Predator magically appearing in just about every cut scene. This goes all the way back to ME1.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 22, 2018 14:25:18 GMT
Game play mechanics often contradict or don't line perfectly with lore. But the treating of a thermal clip like an ammo counter is a game play mechanic. If they didn't then the game wouldn't be balanced at all. Game play balance is a necessary evil that often times requires them to ignore lore in a game. Similar actions happen in movies all the time. Yes, I know about gameplay and story segregation, and it's never a good thing. Gameplay and story should support and not undermine each other. But here, the lore contradicts the lore before any gameplay happens by stating that thermal clips are universal and then completely ignoring what that actually would mean for any weapon's magazine capacity. Why even include this lore if the game does absolutely nothing with it? Magazine size vs heat generated per weapon type aside, even the clips are not universal as the lore states. When you pick up clips, it increases the ammo count of your individual guns, instead of giving you one common pool to draw from. They aren't on par with the Reapers. This is shown when the Alliance finally tracks TIM down and takes out his base of operation. They are only a threat because the Reapers are literally decimating troops, land and civilian populations requiring the full effort of every race to be devoted to fighting them to slow their advance. At that point someone armed with a grapefruit spoon would be a threat simply because all the other resources are devoted to holding back another threat. Yet Cerberus hands the player the only direct setbacks when they assault the Citadel and when they beat Shepard on Thessia. Yes, their base gets blown up in the end, but during the entire game, their ground forces are no easier to beat than the reaper troops. They are a small fraction of humanity which itself is only a small fraction of all council races, and yet the game gives them just as much attention as the horde of galaxy-genociding robo-cthulhus. That's completely out of proportion.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 22, 2018 17:18:31 GMT
Still gave TIM access to the collector base and all technology or scraps of technology within. It doesn't matter how noble the cause the consequences are what matters. But to really drive home the point the Reapers are doing the same thing by that logic you have shown. They have no other choice but to harvest the galaxy to stop the conflict that would wipe out all organic life. The consequences of that action being the death of billions of people every 50,000 years but really they have no choice this is the last ditch effort to stop the problem. If the intent and not consequences are all that matters then the Reapers are the true protagonists and Shepard is really the antagonist of the series. Which is very good because not many if any games I know lets you play as the villian. I...think that's a little oversimplified comparing Shepard to the Reapers. Heck, we can't even compare Shepards without ending up with different outcomes. Intent and consequences may matter, but there lays a difference in capability. Shepard can try to deny Collector Base resources to Cerberus because they see the Illusive Man the way you see Barney Fife with an AK-47 rifle, but the commander lacks the manpower and overwhelming experience to counter all the other members of Cerberus who are messing with pieces of reaper tech you don't even encounter. The other part I disagree with is that the Reapers had no other option. Shep's had different approaches to problems that may accomplish the goal but it also has people who are affected drastically. You can get the Blue Suns to ally with Aria no matter what you decide, but you can also ensure General Oraka survives the deal too. You can get Eclipse ready, but it depends on whether you care about Jona Sederis being kept alive or imprisoned. By that logic, the Reapers could have done several different things like lay dormant on developing planets and let indoctrination prevent technological advancements in the species' minds, use it to convert races to surrendering peacefully, build up the message that they're for unity, not destruction, biological and chemical warfare that leaves the planet intact, all sorts of things instead of the sloppy way they harvested people or simply trashed them and the cities.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 22, 2018 19:29:02 GMT
Still gave TIM access to the collector base and all technology or scraps of technology within. It doesn't matter how noble the cause the consequences are what matters. But to really drive home the point the Reapers are doing the same thing by that logic you have shown. They have no other choice but to harvest the galaxy to stop the conflict that would wipe out all organic life. The consequences of that action being the death of billions of people every 50,000 years but really they have no choice this is the last ditch effort to stop the problem. If the intent and not consequences are all that matters then the Reapers are the true protagonists and Shepard is really the antagonist of the series. Which is very good because not many if any games I know lets you play as the villian. I...think that's a little oversimplified comparing Shepard to the Reapers. Heck, we can't even compare Shepards without ending up with different outcomes. Intent and consequences may matter, but there lays a difference in capability. Shepard can try to deny Collector Base resources to Cerberus because they see the Illusive Man the way you see Barney Fife with an AK-47 rifle, but the commander lacks the manpower and overwhelming experience to counter all the other members of Cerberus who are messing with pieces of reaper tech you don't even encounter. The other part I disagree with is that the Reapers had no other option. Shep's had different approaches to problems that may accomplish the goal but it also has people who are affected drastically. You can get the Blue Suns to ally with Aria no matter what you decide, but you can also ensure General Oraka survives the deal too. You can get Eclipse ready, but it depends on whether you care about Jona Sederis being kept alive or imprisoned. By that logic, the Reapers could have done several different things like lay dormant on developing planets and let indoctrination prevent technological advancements in the species' minds, use it to convert races to surrendering peacefully, build up the message that they're for unity, not destruction, biological and chemical warfare that leaves the planet intact, all sorts of things instead of the sloppy way they harvested people or simply trashed them and the cities. There is no over simplification here. TIM needed Shepard to get access to the Collector base. Even the most paragon Shepard still worked for and allowed TIM access. Shepard is not shown alerting the Alliance to the treasure trove of salvageable tech. Hell all Shepard would have to do is tell Aria that Cerberus can access a treasure trove of Collector tech and she would have parked a Fleet of Mercenary ships outside the Omega Relay. She like everyone else with a pulse and not a sympathizer would know letting Cerberus have access to this tech, even the scraps of it is a shitty shitty idea. But our protagonist with all the understanding of object permanence of a 6 month old does nothing and is shown to do nothing. Even though EDI directly states that Cerberus used tech salvaged from Sovereign to upgrade her hacking capabilities to be able to theoretically take on a Reaper. Shepard does nothing not even showing him attempting to prevent Cerberus from getting access to the wreckage of the Collector base. The end result is TIM getting access, reverse enginering technology to make his own husk copies that are then used to attack the Grissum Academy in an attempt to kidnap powerful biotics/gifted children to twist and alter to his own gains. Jack's slap across the face for putting Cerberus in the position to be able to attempt to kidnap the kids is Shepard's fault. Regardless of how noble the purpose was in ME 2 the end results are not so good. The game makes it clear that the Catalyst studied and tried many attempts before settling on the Reaper solution. Many of those attempts were successful in short term but long term fell apart. The Reaper solution is the noblest of intention. Preventing all life from being wiped out in a galaxy wide war. And it has been unbelievably successful given the thousands and thousands of cycles that have happened. But the consequences to their actions is the death of billions upon billions of lives.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 22, 2018 19:58:23 GMT
There is no over simplification here. TIM needed Shepard to get access to the Collector base. Even the most paragon Shepard still worked for and allowed TIM access. Shepard is not shown alerting the Alliance to the treasure trove of salvageable tech. Hell all Shepard would have to do is tell Aria that Cerberus can access a treasure trove of Collector tech and she would have parked a Fleet of Mercenary ships outside the Omega Relay. She like everyone else with a pulse and not a sympathizer would know letting Cerberus have access to this tech, even the scraps of it is a shitty shitty idea. But our protagonist with all the understanding of object permanence of a 6 month old does nothing and is shown to do nothing. Even though EDI directly states that Cerberus used tech salvaged from Sovereign to upgrade her hacking capabilities to be able to theoretically take on a Reaper. Shepard does nothing not even showing him attempting to prevent Cerberus from getting access to the wreckage of the Collector base. The end result is TIM getting access, reverse enginering technology to make his own husk copies that are then used to attack the Grissum Academy in an attempt to kidnap powerful biotics/gifted children to twist and alter to his own gains. Jack's slap across the face for putting Cerberus in the position to be able to attempt to kidnap the kids is Shepard's fault. Regardless of how noble the purpose was in ME 2 the end results are not so good. The game makes it clear that the Catalyst studied and tried many attempts before settling on the Reaper solution. Many of those attempts were successful in short term but long term fell apart. The Reaper solution is the noblest of intention. Preventing all life from being wiped out in a galaxy wide war. And it has been unbelievably successful given the thousands and thousands of cycles that have happened. But the consequences to their actions is the death of billions upon billions of lives. I've actually had a discussion waaaaay back in the day as to why Shepard couldn't hand the base to the Alliance/Council or anyone else. It all boiled down to Cerberus having prepared and possessing all the resources to acquire the tech before anyone else while making sure Shepard was a highly suspected traitor before they even woke up. Even if you could get a call through at the time of the decision, the logistics of convincing anyone besides Cerberus to whip up the correct signal to the Omega 4 Relay on their own to head to a place full of exploding suns and black holes before Cerberus reached it would be nightmarish. Shepard and the team were getting shot at. Even team members were telling Shep to wrap it up quickly. How the deuce was Shepard to know anything survived being blown up? For all they knew, the base could have been smashed or fallen to a black hole without the fields keeping it in place. The other issue is that the story has always been inconsistent about Shepard's working with Cerberus and their death. Sometimes Shep says they're dead, sometimes they say they were in a coma. Sometimes they were only using Cerberus, sometimes they say Cerberus is the only group doing something. It's ham-handed railroading that also gave Cerberus the ability to be everywhere at once after starting off with devastating losses in resources from the novel. You're also expecting Shepard to be aware of plans outside their reach. How exactly was Shepard to be aware of every plan they had when they're so secretive? As for the Reapers, the Catalyst's logic is so convolutingly self-defeating that it begs the question of Why? Saving organic races from being destroyed by synthetics that they had to destroy organics? Javik's story of how they just destroyed the planet Atespa because the wildlife was resisting their invasion just blows the claim that they're trying to save organics into a bunch of hypocrisy. It's all tell and narratively, that's a huge sin. Show, don't tell, and what they were showing contradicts everything they claim.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 22, 2018 20:05:32 GMT
Game play mechanics often contradict or don't line perfectly with lore. But the treating of a thermal clip like an ammo counter is a game play mechanic. If they didn't then the game wouldn't be balanced at all. Game play balance is a necessary evil that often times requires them to ignore lore in a game. Similar actions happen in movies all the time. Yes, I know about gameplay and story segregation, and it's never a good thing. Gameplay and story should support and not undermine each other. But here, the lore contradicts the lore before any gameplay happens by stating that thermal clips are universal and then completely ignoring what that actually would mean for any weapon's magazine capacity. Why even include this lore if the game does absolutely nothing with it? Magazine size vs heat generated per weapon type aside, even the clips are not universal as the lore states. When you pick up clips, it increases the ammo count of your individual guns, instead of giving you one common pool to draw from. They aren't on par with the Reapers. This is shown when the Alliance finally tracks TIM down and takes out his base of operation. They are only a threat because the Reapers are literally decimating troops, land and civilian populations requiring the full effort of every race to be devoted to fighting them to slow their advance. At that point someone armed with a grapefruit spoon would be a threat simply because all the other resources are devoted to holding back another threat. Yet Cerberus hands the player the only direct setbacks when they assault the Citadel and when they beat Shepard on Thessia. Yes, their base gets blown up in the end, but during the entire game, their ground forces are no easier to beat than the reaper troops. They are a small fraction of humanity which itself is only a small fraction of all council races, and yet the game gives them just as much attention as the horde of galaxy-genociding robo-cthulhus. That's completely out of proportion. Univeral doesn't mean different guns have different restrictions. Hand guns are more compact which means less cooling capabilities. Higher heat production per trigger pull. Even in ME 1 when there as not heat sink set up the pistols could only be fired a limited number of times full auto compared to the likes of rifles. You really needed end game pistols before they became more useful as standard fire arm. And again that is more game mechanics comes into play. Smaller design means more heat generated when the gun fires. Which means less shots per clip due to the quicker over heating. While guns like M-8 Avenger are much larger and could easily have more internal cooling allowing for the clip to last longer. Also the reason you don't get an ammo pool is so when you empty your primary weapon and you are surrounded by enemies and you switch to secondary you aren't just stuck and die. This isn't a survival game were you have to carefully manage your inventory. And setting the game up for people to constantly die and repeat levels because they burned up all their ammunition with one gun wouldn't make a lot of players happy. Particularly at higher levels were even with a fully upgraded sniper you still often need 2-3 shots of a Black Widow to take enemies down. Even more so if you start a new game + with an existing character for a second play threw. Seriously I invite you to do a NG+ with an infiltrator on Insanity difficulty on ME2. Have fun doing Mordin and Grunt's recruitment mission. No health upgrades, no weapon upgrades and all the Vorcha and Krogan have armor and shields and you have the Mantis that takes 2-4 shots to kill each enemy. I finally said F this after Grunts and just started a new play threw from my previous import on insanity. Reaper ground troops are nothing more then cannon fodder. There only to purposefully waste and exhaust the capabilities of the races during the Harvest. The Reapers lose nothing when a dozen of them are killed because 2 dozen more are made from captured soldiers. And then to be used to drag out the screaming remainder to processing faciliites. And at the end of the day abandoned to die and rot away on planets when the Reapers complete the harvest. Both of those set backs are small potatoes to the Reapers. Ceberus lead an almost successful Coup of the Citadel and stole some data by getting there before Shepard. Compare that to the Reapers that decimated the Batarian home world, harvesting and converting 90% of the planet into their soldiers. Smashed threw the Alliance Fleets scattering them to the wind and attacking and dominating the Earth rendering entire cities smoking ruins were the surviving citizens have no choice but to hide in the rubble like rats. Took on the Turians the most heavily armed race outside of maybe the Geth and not only pushed them back to their home planet but also broke threw their defensive lines to attack and burn the planet from the surface. Repeated on thousands of planets with countless lives lost. And some how you are making that equal to stealing a glorified USB and a failed assassination attempt. Cerberus troops being an enemy provides 2 bonuses. First it provides variation to prevent game play from getting overly stale. You will notice the MP side of the game uses 4 different enemy groups that vary up the combat and prevents the horde mode system from getting boring 2 rounds into it as you face the same 5 enemies over and over again. If you replace Cerberus troops with Reaper troops in every encounter in the game it would become very boring. Second by mixing up the fights it allows them to keep up the idea that the Reapers are a threat. If you simply spend 6-8+ hours mowing threw them the threat of the Reapers is reduced. Because it sets it up like a child with a pair of scissors could take them out. The variation provides the same benefit that bandits or mercenaries did in ME 1 and ME 2 compared to the main villains of Geth and Collectors respectively.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 22, 2018 20:27:21 GMT
There is no over simplification here. TIM needed Shepard to get access to the Collector base. Even the most paragon Shepard still worked for and allowed TIM access. Shepard is not shown alerting the Alliance to the treasure trove of salvageable tech. Hell all Shepard would have to do is tell Aria that Cerberus can access a treasure trove of Collector tech and she would have parked a Fleet of Mercenary ships outside the Omega Relay. She like everyone else with a pulse and not a sympathizer would know letting Cerberus have access to this tech, even the scraps of it is a shitty shitty idea. But our protagonist with all the understanding of object permanence of a 6 month old does nothing and is shown to do nothing. Even though EDI directly states that Cerberus used tech salvaged from Sovereign to upgrade her hacking capabilities to be able to theoretically take on a Reaper. Shepard does nothing not even showing him attempting to prevent Cerberus from getting access to the wreckage of the Collector base. The end result is TIM getting access, reverse enginering technology to make his own husk copies that are then used to attack the Grissum Academy in an attempt to kidnap powerful biotics/gifted children to twist and alter to his own gains. Jack's slap across the face for putting Cerberus in the position to be able to attempt to kidnap the kids is Shepard's fault. Regardless of how noble the purpose was in ME 2 the end results are not so good. The game makes it clear that the Catalyst studied and tried many attempts before settling on the Reaper solution. Many of those attempts were successful in short term but long term fell apart. The Reaper solution is the noblest of intention. Preventing all life from being wiped out in a galaxy wide war. And it has been unbelievably successful given the thousands and thousands of cycles that have happened. But the consequences to their actions is the death of billions upon billions of lives. I've actually had a discussion waaaaay back in the day as to why Shepard couldn't hand the base to the Alliance/Council or anyone else. It all boiled down to Cerberus having prepared and possessing all the resources to acquire the tech before anyone else while making sure Shepard was a highly suspected traitor before they even woke up. Even if you could get a call through at the time of the decision, the logistics of convincing anyone besides Cerberus to whip up the correct signal to the Omega 4 Relay on their own to head to a place full of exploding suns and black holes before Cerberus reached it would be nightmarish. Shepard and the team were getting shot at. Even team members were telling Shep to wrap it up quickly. How the deuce was Shepard to know anything survived being blown up? For all they knew, the base could have been smashed or fallen to a black hole without the fields keeping it in place. The other issue is that the story has always been inconsistent about Shepard's working with Cerberus and their death. Sometimes Shep says they're dead, sometimes they say they were in a coma. Sometimes they were only using Cerberus, sometimes they say Cerberus is the only group doing something. It's ham-handed railroading that also gave Cerberus the ability to be everywhere at once after starting off with devastating losses in resources from the novel. You're also expecting Shepard to be aware of plans outside their reach. How exactly was Shepard to be aware of every plan they had when they're so secretive? As for the Reapers, the Catalyst's logic is so convolutingly self-defeating that it begs the question of Why? Saving organic races from being destroyed by synthetics that they had to destroy organics? Javik's story of how they just destroyed the planet Atespa because the wildlife was resisting their invasion just blows the claim that they're trying to save organics into a bunch of hypocrisy. It's all tell and narratively, that's a huge sin. Show, don't tell, and what they were showing contradicts everything they claim. Handing over access to and preventing someone from accessing are two different things. The only way to access the Collector base is the Reaper IFF chip which is sitting on the Normandy. And who's data would have been studied by EDI who due to programing restraints would have sent the data to TIM. Or at least forwarded it to Miranda who would send it to TIM. Simply alerting the Alliance, Council or even Aria to the location and the fact TIM would have access would have prompted intervention that could have prevented TIM from access the technology within. All without giving others access to the same technology. Blockade the Relay and attack any ships coming in or leaving the Relay. That was the basic plan of the Council in ME 1 to station ships at all the Relays connected to the Citadel to intercept and destroy Saren's Geth Fleet. Obviously against a Reaper it didn't work but against what TIM could throw at you it would have been a viable option. The logic is only convoluted if you want it to be. By your logic you are displaying clear cutting and selective cutting a forest are the same thing. If you are not familiar with the terms clear cutting is when they cut down all the trees in a given area. Selective cutting is the cutting down of selected trees in a forest so that growth of other trees is not affected. Is that a convincingly self defeating actions to maintain forested areas? Because Reapers are doing the same thing only instead of trees it is species, and instead of a forest it is the entire mikly way galaxy. The Quarian vs Geth conflict is them showing stuff. How is it people can say they don't show anything but then they some how ignore that entire set up? Which is central to the plot of the first game and has major impacts in the second and third game. Every time someone says they never showed anything to support the Catalyst and it was all tell and no show I feel like....well this video explains it best.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 22, 2018 20:44:37 GMT
Handing over access to and preventing someone from accessing are two different things. The only way to access the Collector base is the Reaper IFF chip which is sitting on the Normandy. And who's data would have been studied by EDI who due to programing restraints would have sent the data to TIM. Or at least forwarded it to Miranda who would send it to TIM. Simply alerting the Alliance, Council or even Aria to the location and the fact TIM would have access would have prompted intervention that could have prevented TIM from access the technology within. All without giving others access to the same technology. Blockade the Relay and attack any ships coming in or leaving the Relay. That was the basic plan of the Council in ME 1 to station ships at all the Relays connected to the Citadel to intercept and destroy Saren's Geth Fleet. Obviously against a Reaper it didn't work but against what TIM could throw at you it would have been a viable option. The logic is only convoluted if you want it to be. By your logic you are displaying clear cutting and selective cutting a forest are the same thing. If you are not familiar with the terms clear cutting is when they cut down all the trees in a given area. Selective cutting is the cutting down of selected trees in a forest so that growth of other trees is not affected. Is that a convincingly self defeating actions to maintain forested areas? Because Reapers are doing the same thing only instead of trees it is species, and instead of a forest it is the entire mikly way galaxy. The Quarian vs Geth conflict is them showing stuff. How is it people can say they don't show anything but then they some how ignore that entire set up? Which is central to the plot of the first game and has major impacts in the second and third game. Every time someone says they never showed anything to support the Catalyst and it was all tell and no show I feel like....well this video explains it best. How were they to deal with the Collectors inside the Base? Continue blowing it up and then go blockade the Relay? How are they to know whether anything of the base is intact after exploding their safety point the IFF is supposed to attach to? If they decide to keep the base, how are they going to convince any major powers to cooperate and come retrieve it when Shepard's word is what they're basing it on? For all they know, it could be a lure to a trap. How exactly is one ship supposed to fend off multiple ships should Cerberus want to take it? ME3 showed that to gain access to the academy, Joker had to lead them on a goose chase instead of combating them directly. As for the Catalyst, you might be content with the explanation, but too many others aren't. We've been given an example of where one of my suggestions actually did work effectively. They used subterfuge to indoctrinate the Batarian home world instead of direct invasion. It worked for the Reapers so efficiently when Batarians took in that Reaper corpse on Jarter, the home planet never could muster more than a few token ships to the resistance. Why the need to stomp all over the place trying to catch fleeing prey when using subtle ways to indoctrinate the races did the job without the mess? The Mass Relays were readily analyzed and integrated into society. Why didn't the Reapers masquerade as part of that tech?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 23, 2018 14:17:00 GMT
Handing over access to and preventing someone from accessing are two different things. The only way to access the Collector base is the Reaper IFF chip which is sitting on the Normandy. And who's data would have been studied by EDI who due to programing restraints would have sent the data to TIM. Or at least forwarded it to Miranda who would send it to TIM. Simply alerting the Alliance, Council or even Aria to the location and the fact TIM would have access would have prompted intervention that could have prevented TIM from access the technology within. All without giving others access to the same technology. Blockade the Relay and attack any ships coming in or leaving the Relay. That was the basic plan of the Council in ME 1 to station ships at all the Relays connected to the Citadel to intercept and destroy Saren's Geth Fleet. Obviously against a Reaper it didn't work but against what TIM could throw at you it would have been a viable option. The logic is only convoluted if you want it to be. By your logic you are displaying clear cutting and selective cutting a forest are the same thing. If you are not familiar with the terms clear cutting is when they cut down all the trees in a given area. Selective cutting is the cutting down of selected trees in a forest so that growth of other trees is not affected. Is that a convincingly self defeating actions to maintain forested areas? Because Reapers are doing the same thing only instead of trees it is species, and instead of a forest it is the entire mikly way galaxy. The Quarian vs Geth conflict is them showing stuff. How is it people can say they don't show anything but then they some how ignore that entire set up? Which is central to the plot of the first game and has major impacts in the second and third game. Every time someone says they never showed anything to support the Catalyst and it was all tell and no show I feel like....well this video explains it best. How were they to deal with the Collectors inside the Base? Continue blowing it up and then go blockade the Relay? How are they to know whether anything of the base is intact after exploding their safety point the IFF is supposed to attach to? If they decide to keep the base, how are they going to convince any major powers to cooperate and come retrieve it when Shepard's word is what they're basing it on? For all they know, it could be a lure to a trap. How exactly is one ship supposed to fend off multiple ships should Cerberus want to take it? ME3 showed that to gain access to the academy, Joker had to lead them on a goose chase instead of combating them directly. As for the Catalyst, you might be content with the explanation, but too many others aren't. We've been given an example of where one of my suggestions actually did work effectively. They used subterfuge to indoctrinate the Batarian home world instead of direct invasion. It worked for the Reapers so efficiently when Batarians took in that Reaper corpse on Jarter, the home planet never could muster more than a few token ships to the resistance. Why the need to stomp all over the place trying to catch fleeing prey when using subtle ways to indoctrinate the races did the job without the mess? The Mass Relays were readily analyzed and integrated into society. Why didn't the Reapers masquerade as part of that tech? Your rather blatantly ignoring or twisting what I say. The IFF signal was needed for proper navigation threw the Relay other wise it popped you out somewhere that wasn't safe. All Shepard would have to do is keep quite about the IFF on the Normandy or have EDI destroy it and covertly alert the Alliance brass about the problem. They have Black Ops units that could intercept and interfere with TIM's salvage attempts by attacking ships as they leave the Collector base. Since Omega is near by simply alerting Aria about Cerberus working in her back yard and agree to work with her would allow the clandestine op to take place with Aria taking all the credit for kicking Cerberus's ass for daring to mess with her. Disrupt, deny or simply make an attempt to prevent TIM from getting access to the destroyed Collector base. Which is obvious he wants it after that little speech to preserve the base and let Cerberus have access to it. And what does Shepard do? Flies back to Alliance space some time after the Alpha Relay event and is grounded while the Alliance tries to deal with the Batarian outrage of Alliance troops destroying a Mass Relay and wiping out a couple hundred thousand Batarians. Batarians found the Leviathan of Dis and brought it back to their own closely guarded space specifically because it represented a chance for them to gain power and authority. And Batarian society is an extremely strict hierarchy system with each person above the other feeling they are inherently superior to them. On the galactic scale how ever they are small potatoes and with the introduction of humanity and the apparent favoritism of the Council to a race that isn't so far up it's own anus they retreated and became space north korea. Thus when they find the corpse of a Reaper and massive amounts of technology they horded it for themselves. The end result was the indoctrination of those top scientist who sabotaged what could laughably be called the Batarian resistance. Laughably because they were dealt the full brunt of the initial invasion and regardless of indoctrination the destruction and scattering of the few pitiful number of Batraians were going to happen anyways.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 23, 2018 15:20:18 GMT
Your rather blatantly ignoring or twisting what I say. The IFF signal was needed for proper navigation threw the Relay other wise it popped you out somewhere that wasn't safe. All Shepard would have to do is keep quite about the IFF on the Normandy or have EDI destroy it and covertly alert the Alliance brass about the problem. They have Black Ops units that could intercept and interfere with TIM's salvage attempts by attacking ships as they leave the Collector base. Since Omega is near by simply alerting Aria about Cerberus working in her back yard and agree to work with her would allow the clandestine op to take place with Aria taking all the credit for kicking Cerberus's ass for daring to mess with her. Disrupt, deny or simply make an attempt to prevent TIM from getting access to the destroyed Collector base. Which is obvious he wants it after that little speech to preserve the base and let Cerberus have access to it. And what does Shepard do? Flies back to Alliance space some time after the Alpha Relay event and is grounded while the Alliance tries to deal with the Batarian outrage of Alliance troops destroying a Mass Relay and wiping out a couple hundred thousand Batarians. Batarians found the Leviathan of Dis and brought it back to their own closely guarded space specifically because it represented a chance for them to gain power and authority. And Batarian society is an extremely strict hierarchy system with each person above the other feeling they are inherently superior to them. On the galactic scale how ever they are small potatoes and with the introduction of humanity and the apparent favoritism of the Council to a race that isn't so far up it's own anus they retreated and became space north korea. Thus when they find the corpse of a Reaper and massive amounts of technology they horded it for themselves. The end result was the indoctrination of those top scientist who sabotaged what could laughably be called the Batarian resistance. Laughably because they were dealt the full brunt of the initial invasion and regardless of indoctrination the destruction and scattering of the few pitiful number of Batraians were going to happen anyways. How am I twisting what you say? It's rather hard to see why you're convinced by some aspects of the story. For example, why would Aria have any interest wasting resources on an organization that's not threatening her? She didn't give a damn about Cerberus until they actively removed her control over Omega. Her policy generally is one where she doesn't care what someone does so long as you don't mess with her. It worked for Archangel and it worked for Morinth. The other part I'm confused on is what Black ops can Shepard rely on? Are they enough to take out any number of ships Cerberus sends? As for the Batarians, I don't see how what you said refutes that the Catalyst had other options available to approach this. Every major power with citizens dependent on stable security and cooperation has an investment to stay ahead on technological advancements. Every galactic race was intentionally made dependent on the Mass Relay tech. All it would have took was for the Reapers to integrate themselves into society and wait until a clean harvest was ripe.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 26, 2018 3:17:45 GMT
It doesn't necessarily piss me off, but it does fall under the category of annoying...
Every time I go to a new cluster in ME1, Admiral Hackett asks me for a favor. It's a good thing I like that guy because of ME3, because it's getting super annoying on this current playthrough. Like dude, I've got spectre stuff to do, leave me alone for a couple missions geez.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 26, 2018 16:49:39 GMT
Your rather blatantly ignoring or twisting what I say. The IFF signal was needed for proper navigation threw the Relay other wise it popped you out somewhere that wasn't safe. All Shepard would have to do is keep quite about the IFF on the Normandy or have EDI destroy it and covertly alert the Alliance brass about the problem. They have Black Ops units that could intercept and interfere with TIM's salvage attempts by attacking ships as they leave the Collector base. Since Omega is near by simply alerting Aria about Cerberus working in her back yard and agree to work with her would allow the clandestine op to take place with Aria taking all the credit for kicking Cerberus's ass for daring to mess with her. Disrupt, deny or simply make an attempt to prevent TIM from getting access to the destroyed Collector base. Which is obvious he wants it after that little speech to preserve the base and let Cerberus have access to it. And what does Shepard do? Flies back to Alliance space some time after the Alpha Relay event and is grounded while the Alliance tries to deal with the Batarian outrage of Alliance troops destroying a Mass Relay and wiping out a couple hundred thousand Batarians. Batarians found the Leviathan of Dis and brought it back to their own closely guarded space specifically because it represented a chance for them to gain power and authority. And Batarian society is an extremely strict hierarchy system with each person above the other feeling they are inherently superior to them. On the galactic scale how ever they are small potatoes and with the introduction of humanity and the apparent favoritism of the Council to a race that isn't so far up it's own anus they retreated and became space north korea. Thus when they find the corpse of a Reaper and massive amounts of technology they horded it for themselves. The end result was the indoctrination of those top scientist who sabotaged what could laughably be called the Batarian resistance. Laughably because they were dealt the full brunt of the initial invasion and regardless of indoctrination the destruction and scattering of the few pitiful number of Batraians were going to happen anyways. How am I twisting what you say? It's rather hard to see why you're convinced by some aspects of the story. For example, why would Aria have any interest wasting resources on an organization that's not threatening her? She didn't give a damn about Cerberus until they actively removed her control over Omega. Her policy generally is one where she doesn't care what someone does so long as you don't mess with her. It worked for Archangel and it worked for Morinth. The other part I'm confused on is what Black ops can Shepard rely on? Are they enough to take out any number of ships Cerberus sends? As for the Batarians, I don't see how what you said refutes that the Catalyst had other options available to approach this. Every major power with citizens dependent on stable security and cooperation has an investment to stay ahead on technological advancements. Every galactic race was intentionally made dependent on the Mass Relay tech. All it would have took was for the Reapers to integrate themselves into society and wait until a clean harvest was ripe. Because you continue to to ignore the simple statement I made. That Shepard is never shown even attempting to disrupt the salvage operation. Not even a 5 second audio clip. Shepard knows TIM is capable of reverse engineering upgrades from scrap as he did from Sovereign to make EDI. Which leads back to Jack's slap of Shepard being completely justified. Doesn't matter how noble the reason Shepard still helped Cerberus and simply trusted the guy that used him as live bait by lying to him so simply not go after all the technology scraps that he not moments earlier tried to persuade Shepard to leave in tact for Cerberus to exploit. And that isn't even taking into account the literal Reaper that Shepard simply lets TIM have and continue to mess with. Cerberus isn't like Morinth or Archangel who only kill random nobodies or other gangs that might attempt to challenge or authority. Cerberus is literally a terrorist organization that targets non humans and them getting a hold of Collector Tech after the Vorcha were able to almost wipe out an entire section of Omega when they give them a virus. It would be pretty clear that Cerberus would become a threat to her. In fact in ME 3 Cerberus kicks her out of Omega and you have to fight with her to retake her station. The Reapers utilize the Mass Relays just as much as the rest of the galaxy. Hence why Shepard blowing up the Alpha Relay delayed their invasion for 6 months as they traveled to the next Relay. As well the entire point and only reason we have a trilogy is they are suppose to capture the Citadel first and spread from there disrupting the Relay Network. Protheans altered that and prevented that from happening.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 26, 2018 16:59:05 GMT
Complain about Cerberus all you want. Without them, Shepard would still be dead, the collectors would have continued abducting colonists, and the reapers would have succeeded with the harvest.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 26, 2018 18:39:04 GMT
Also, Jack can complain all she wants. Without Cerberus, she'd still be locked up. So, no, her slap isn't justified.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Feb 26, 2018 20:02:41 GMT
Complain about Cerberus all you want. Without them, Shepard would still be dead, the collectors would have continued abducting colonists, and the reapers would have succeeded with the harvest. The Alliance would have stopped the Collectors and I don't see why Shepard is necessary to stop the Reapers. Plenty of people could have substituted for them.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 26, 2018 20:24:56 GMT
The Alliance would have stopped the Collectors and I don't see why Shepard is necessary to stop the Reapers. Plenty of people could have substituted for them. Would they have? They weren't that concerned about the colonists being abducted. Who would replace Shepard? Would that person have been able to gather the galaxy together to fight the reapers?
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Post by opuspace on Feb 26, 2018 22:41:49 GMT
Because you continue to to ignore the simple statement I made. That Shepard is never shown even attempting to disrupt the salvage operation. Not even a 5 second audio clip. Shepard knows TIM is capable of reverse engineering upgrades from scrap as he did from Sovereign to make EDI. Which leads back to Jack's slap of Shepard being completely justified. Doesn't matter how noble the reason Shepard still helped Cerberus and simply trusted the guy that used him as live bait by lying to him so simply not go after all the technology scraps that he not moments earlier tried to persuade Shepard to leave in tact for Cerberus to exploit. And that isn't even taking into account the literal Reaper that Shepard simply lets TIM have and continue to mess with. Cerberus isn't like Morinth or Archangel who only kill random nobodies or other gangs that might attempt to challenge or authority. Cerberus is literally a terrorist organization that targets non humans and them getting a hold of Collector Tech after the Vorcha were able to almost wipe out an entire section of Omega when they give them a virus. It would be pretty clear that Cerberus would become a threat to her. In fact in ME 3 Cerberus kicks her out of Omega and you have to fight with her to retake her station. The Reapers utilize the Mass Relays just as much as the rest of the galaxy. Hence why Shepard blowing up the Alpha Relay delayed their invasion for 6 months as they traveled to the next Relay. As well the entire point and only reason we have a trilogy is they are suppose to capture the Citadel first and spread from there disrupting the Relay Network. Protheans altered that and prevented that from happening. I have already addressed your claim by asking this: How were they to know anything was intact enough to go back for it? Again, we have Shepard saying themselves that they chose to blow it up because they didn't trust the Illusive Man to have it. That implies Shepard thought it was destroyed enough to be unsalvageable. What evidence was there worth enough to risk going back to such a dangerous place? Jack's anger still does not fly because she herself was on Shepard's team working with Cerberus. She and Shepard are no different in their actions. As for Aria, she too worked with Cerberus as well before being betrayed. This tells me she didn't have any motive to stop them until after they wronged her. So Shepard would have been out of luck asking for her help (on the assumption that there was anything to retrieve to begin with). Your last paragraph...lost me back there. I'm arguing that the Catalyst's methods are as sloppy as its reasoning because we have in game evidence that more efficient results came from subterfuge. The message does not fit with the methods.
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Post by Phantom on Feb 26, 2018 23:51:38 GMT
Complain about Cerberus all you want. Without them, Shepard would still be dead, the collectors would have continued abducting colonists, and the reapers would have succeeded with the harvest. People love to be on their high horse and moralizing about their position. Also Due to the political bullshit of the Citadel Council Space and Council Fleet gets their asses handed to them by Sovereign, So having the Alliance's hands tied by the aftermath of Sovereign. Inept Leaders are the Reaper's best friends and Shepard is/can be roleplay as a capable leader and willing to fight the Reapers. Also by the time that the Collectors made an overt attack on Alliance and Council Space, it will be too late and be a more of a clusterfuck than what we saw within ME3.
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Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 27, 2018 7:13:46 GMT
Complain about Cerberus all you want. Without them, Shepard would still be dead, the collectors would have continued abducting colonists, and the reapers would have succeeded with the harvest. The Alliance would have stopped the Collectors and I don't see why Shepard is necessary to stop the Reapers. Plenty of people could have substituted for them. I think they were capable but all evidence is that, like the Council, they were too busy shoving their heads up their asses to do anything useful on this front. Also, Shepard would most definitely still be dead. Now, maybe you don't find him necessary, just as DA changed its protagonist throughout all three games, but I loved following Shepard throughout the series.
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Post by copper on Feb 27, 2018 14:54:04 GMT
The Alliance would have stopped the Collectors and I don't see why Shepard is necessary to stop the Reapers. Plenty of people could have substituted for them. I think they were capable but all evidence is that, like the Council, they were too busy shoving their heads up their asses to do anything useful on this front. Also, Shepard would most definitely still be dead. Now, maybe you don't find him necessary, just as DA changed its protagonist throughout all three games, but I loved following Shepard throughout the series. Just gonna jump in here. I liked them using Shepard for the whole trilogy and all, but I definitely could have gone without the Lazarus project. Surely if the writers needed Shepard to work with Cerberus, they could have found a way that didn't involve Shepard dying and becoming Space Jesus? I mean the first game already showed the Council blocking Shepard from chasing down Saren near the end of the game. If Cerberus was the only organization willing to take the Reaper threat seriously I can see Shepard choosing to work with them out of necessity.
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