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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 8, 2018 20:40:12 GMT
Agreed. Humanity's timeline is one of the biggest issues I have with the trilogy timeline. Of course, Andromeda with the Initiative, brainchild of a human entrepreneu in the 2170s makes all of this 10x worse.
While the timeline of human rise to power was already shoddy in ME1, I did still like that at least they tried to illustrate that we did have issues to work through in greater galactic politics. Even better was the Revelation novel where Ambassador Goyle has to use every shred of her negotiation skills to avoid sanctions and economic/scientific oversight by the council races that would have effectively crippled humanity after the illegal AI research on Sidon came out. That's how things should have been in the trilogy as well, IMO.
I mean, I get that humans had to do some amazing things throughout the ME timeline but they do take it too far, especially in ME3.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 8, 2018 20:42:57 GMT
I do agree that humanity doing all what they did in the span of about 30 years is hard to believe. When Bioware chooses to reboot the trilogy, I would have humanity be part of the galactic community for about 100 years before the events of ME1 take place.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 16, 2018 9:06:47 GMT
I do agree that humanity doing all what they did in the span of about 30 years is hard to believe. When Bioware chooses to reboot the trilogy, I would have humanity be part of the galactic community for about 100 years before the events of ME1 take place. I actually like the idea that I've presented before, which is to have humanity lose the First Contact War, become a client race of the turians for maybe a few hundred years, but then based on the events of ME1 end up becoming independent with their own place on the Council. Way more plausible than 30 years to the top of the food chain while the guys that actually created the economy still sit at the bottom.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jun 18, 2018 13:17:03 GMT
I do agree that humanity doing all what they did in the span of about 30 years is hard to believe. When Bioware chooses to reboot the trilogy, I would have humanity be part of the galactic community for about 100 years before the events of ME1 take place. I actually like the idea that I've presented before, which is to have humanity lose the First Contact War, become a client race of the turians for maybe a few hundred years, but then based on the events of ME1 end up becoming independent with their own place on the Council. Way more plausible than 30 years to the top of the food chain while the guys that actually created the economy still sit at the bottom. That would be an interesting take on events, and one that would finally cast humanity in an underdog light. I'm sorry, but contrary to what the narrative was constantly trying to tell us through NPCs and major companions, humanity was never in the "little guy" corner. The really underdogs of the setting were the Hanar and Elcor; two species that the entire galaxy apparently decided was completely acceptable to mock and make fun of at every opportunity.
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Post by burningcherry on Jun 28, 2018 18:03:57 GMT
• We've created and successfully marketed a medical breakthrough in the form of Medi-gel; despite knowing next to nothing of xeno-biology compared to the rest of the galaxy's scientific community, and the Council's extremely stringent restrictions on genetic engineering; what's more, they aren't even taxing us on the sale of the stuff. I believe it to be an explanation for some game mechanics: as the medi-gel is a human invention produced by humans, stashes of it are marked in-game with a symbol easily recognizable by a human player (a red cross) and thus are easier to spot. • We are all economic savants as well, seeing as how the Alliance, and several private citizens' collective wealth outstrips even that of the Volus; the ones who created the economic system of the entire galaxy, and who have been doing business for thousands of years. True, that's hard to believe. • The Salarians are in awe of our scientific accomplishments too. We've invented Medi-gel and (as of ME 2) are able to literally bring dead people back to life. Even Mordin can't stop gushing about how 'genetically diverse' we are as a species and how much more impressive we are when compared with all other sapient life in the galaxy. Maybe the others were able to do so as well but no one wanted to spend billions of credits and engage tens (hundreds?) of experts for more than a year just to resurrect someone. • Our biotic potential, despite only being exposed to it for less than thirty years, somehow rivals even that of the Asari (a species that evolved to be naturally biotic on their home world). Game mechanics, to some point. But yeah, the biotics lore is being stretched more and more with time. • [...] We can also actively pursue research into the development of AI (with both EDI and SAM. Project OVERLORD if you want to get technical), despite the Council's ban, and not even get so much as a slap on the wrist. Meanwhile the Quarians are saddled with infractions, fines, and literally ostracized from society for their creation of the Geth; which weren't' even intended to be AI in the first place. It's maybe because there were only a couple of individuals doing so, and without any official (or wide) approval. With an obvious exception of the Sidon research Goyle faced a political shitstorm for. • We get to loophole our way around the Treaty of Firlaxian, thanks to our carriers, without the Turians so much as batting an eye, but the Batarians try something similar and they are labeled as dangerous and hit with fines and trade embargoes, before ultimately being kicked out of polite society altogether. What were they exactly trying to do? I may have forgotten about something. •We can have an all human lead Council (as a potential outcome of ME 1) and every single major alien race just bends over an takes it. The actions of a pro-human terrorist group doesn't sour galactic opinion of humanity either; but xenophobic tendencies of a few Batarian groups suddenly label their entire species as "space racists". It's good this option wasn't included in ME2.
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Post by burningcherry on Jun 28, 2018 18:11:16 GMT
The ubiquity of human biotics
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Post by Vortex13 on Jun 28, 2018 19:20:14 GMT
For the medi-gel. I feel that's a lousy justification. I mean, sure, a humanly understood medical aid (the red cross) makes sense for ease of 'legibility' but there is no reason why said invention had to solely be the project of human ingenuity. What lore reason was there, aside from furthering the 'humans are special snowflakes' troupe, was there for placing medi-gel's creation in our species list of achievements? It could have just as easily been a pre-existing medical product, invented by the collective galactic community over thousands of years, that humans and the Alliance adopted because of its universal applications. Project Lazarus ties into the 'humans are special' shtick because a privately funded black ops terrorist organization can afford the resources necessary for this procedure when the whole of the Salarian, Asari, Turian, and Volus scientific community could not. Any one of those species alone could have mustered up that level of funding with charity drives; who wouldn't want to resurrect dead loved ones? But apparently our species has a monopoly on such funds and experts. For the point on the Batarians and the Treaty of Frilaxian, they tried to go around the restrictions by building more dreadnoughts and increasing their navy's overall strength, and the galaxy responded by throwing out heavy sanctions and fines in their direction, even going so far as to indirectly imply impending military actions if the Hegemony continued. Meanwhile, humanity and the Alliance start building carriers, which have nearly the same destructive potential/battlefield control that dreadnoughts have and none of the Council races bates an eye. There is a clear double-standard at work within the background lore of the setting that allows humans to get away with proverbial murder, while other races are vitally crucified for failing to file their TPS reports on time.
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Post by burningcherry on Jun 28, 2018 20:14:17 GMT
But I agree that it doesn't make sense in the lore. What I'm saying is that it makes some sense for the gameplay design and maybe that's the reason someone has written it like that. Project Lazarus ties into the 'humans are special' shtick because a privately funded black ops terrorist organization can afford the resources necessary for this procedure when the whole of the Salarian, Asari, Turian, and Volus scientific community could not. Any one of those species alone could have mustered up that level of funding with charity drives; who wouldn't want to resurrect dead loved ones? But apparently our species has a monopoly on such funds and experts. But we're talking about billions of credits, it probably translates to billions of dollars in today's currency. I don't insist it makes sense in the lore, I'm just saying it's not as far-fetched as it seems like. I actually believe it was happening sometimes among the other races but, due to the costs, only rarely. I believe I expressed myself too simplistic in the previous post. For the point on the Batarians and the Treaty of [...] I don't doubt you, I just need a source.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 30, 2018 15:33:50 GMT
My first playthrough of ME3, James mentioned 'it reminds me of when I destroyed a collector ship'. I believe he said that when I took him on the dreadnought. At that time, I thought there was the one collector ship, and it was destroyed in ME2. Anyways. Back on the SR2, I wanted to know more about what he said, but never got the option. It was only 6 months later when a cartoon, Paragon Lost, was released that the player gets an answer. I never watched the cartoon, but read that he ended up destroying a collector ship. Annoying that Shepard couldn't ask him about that in the game.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 30, 2018 19:26:01 GMT
Project Lazarus ties into the 'humans are special' shtick because a privately funded black ops terrorist organization can afford the resources necessary for this procedure when the whole of the Salarian, Asari, Turian, and Volus scientific community could not. Any one of those species alone could have mustered up that level of funding with charity drives; who wouldn't want to resurrect dead loved ones? But apparently our species has a monopoly on such funds and experts. I agree with you on every point except the one about resurrecting loved ones. Bringing back Shepard wasn't lightly done. It was a singular project created to resurrect a powerful and charismatic soldier who TIM believed could get the job done and inspire others to follow him. This turned out to be true and the cost of bringing back another person just to make someone feel better would be insanely cost prohibitive. That aside, yes, I think it's implausible that any human who wasn't embezzling a ton of money from other aliens just wouldn't have the necessary resources. Though, based on what we know of TIM, I wouldn't put it past him to have tortured alien scientists into helping or of extorting money out of them.
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Post by Phantom on Jun 30, 2018 20:42:28 GMT
Project Lazarus ties into the 'humans are special' shtick because a privately funded black ops terrorist organization can afford the resources necessary for this procedure when the whole of the Salarian, Asari, Turian, and Volus scientific community could not. Any one of those species alone could have mustered up that level of funding with charity drives; who wouldn't want to resurrect dead loved ones? But apparently our species has a monopoly on such funds and experts. I agree with you on every point except the one about resurrecting loved ones. Bringing back Shepard wasn't lightly done. It was a singular project created to resurrect a powerful and charismatic soldier who TIM believed could get the job done and inspire others to follow him. This turned out to be true and the cost of bringing back another person just to make someone feel better would be insanely cost prohibitive. That aside, yes, I think it's implausible that any human who wasn't embezzling a ton of money from other aliens just wouldn't have the necessary resources. Though, based on what we know of TIM, I wouldn't put it past him to have tortured alien scientists into helping or of extorting money out of them. what if TIM did use corporate espionage to bribing people or having A Cerberus Infiltrator to copy medical technologies schematic. Cerberus is about bleed edge technologies as well as terrorism as well. For example, a high quality cybernetic spine schematic would be picked up by a Cerberus Infiltrator. or a Nanotech for increased Healing and overall recovering. it would be interesting if they ever do a true espionage Mass Effect game.
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Post by melbella on Jun 30, 2018 21:44:11 GMT
Well, we know corporate espionage is a thing. That's why people like Parasini have jobs.
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Post by aoibhealfae on Jul 1, 2018 11:43:08 GMT
Much of the advancement by humanity is credited to the beacon on Mars. Anderson did say that the beacon jumpstart humanity technology and advancement in centuries. This was made questionable because ME3 written Liara and TIM to degrade the value of the research done by the Alliance on the facility. But I already knew Hackett and Anderson aren't entirely truthful. Why wouldn't the beacon that housed the blueprint of a superweapon wouldn't have its own Reaper warning, they would have suspected it. Andromeda Initiative is a last effort to escape the reaper threat and ensure the survival of humanity.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 2, 2018 21:00:14 GMT
Much of the advancement by humanity is credited to the beacon on Mars. Anderson did say that the beacon jumpstart humanity technology and advancement in centuries. This was made questionable because ME3 written Liara and TIM to degrade the value of the research done by the Alliance on the facility. But I already knew Hackett and Anderson aren't entirely truthful. Why wouldn't the beacon that housed the blueprint of a superweapon wouldn't have its own Reaper warning, they would have suspected it. Andromeda Initiative is a last effort to escape the reaper threat and ensure the survival of humanity. Don't they say on Mars that they found out that the data archive had a second layer or something? One they didn't find until Liara figured it out just before the game starts basically? (Not sure if they say it or if I made that up as head canon.)
But yea, even if that is the case, I still agree, it wouldn't make much sense for the protheans to somehow hide the info about the reapers and the crucible in some hidden layer of the archive. This stuff should be right in the very front with a big warning sign on top of it.
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Post by aoibhealfae on Jul 2, 2018 23:55:15 GMT
Don't they say on Mars that they found out that the data archive had a second layer or something? One they didn't find until Liara figured it out just before the game starts basically? (Not sure if they say it or if I made that up as head canon.) But yea, even if that is the case, I still agree, it wouldn't make much sense for the protheans to somehow hide the info about the reapers and the crucible in some hidden layer of the archive. This stuff should be right in the very front with a big warning sign on top of it.
In ME3, you're just told Liara knew about everything and this supported TIM who claimed Alliance knew about the beacon for decades and didn't know what it contain. Yet, Anderson knew about the superweapon in ME1. He told Shepard about it in his conversation after the beacon exploded and he referred it directly to Mars' Prothean beacon. In Mass Effect Homeworlds, it was Hackett who let Liara into the facility. Hackett doesn't even look surprised when Shepard revealed about the blueprints. Considering everyone on the facility is dead, it was obvious he wanted Liara to think she was the only one who found out to absolve Alliance's knowledge of it from the Citadel Council. Politically, if Citadel Council knew that Alliance have the knowledge of a massive superweapon for decades, they would have confiscated everything. As shown in the facility, there's too much Prothean troves that it could take centuries to sift through.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 3, 2018 3:04:43 GMT
Don't they say on Mars that they found out that the data archive had a second layer or something? One they didn't find until Liara figured it out just before the game starts basically? (Not sure if they say it or if I made that up as head canon.) But yea, even if that is the case, I still agree, it wouldn't make much sense for the protheans to somehow hide the info about the reapers and the crucible in some hidden layer of the archive. This stuff should be right in the very front with a big warning sign on top of it.
In ME3, you're just told Liara knew about everything and this supported TIM who claimed Alliance knew about the beacon for decades and didn't know what it contain. Yet, Anderson knew about the superweapon in ME1. He told Shepard about it in his conversation after the beacon exploded and he referred it directly to Mars' Prothean beacon. In Mass Effect Homeworlds, it was Hackett who let Liara into the facility. Hackett doesn't even look surprised when Shepard revealed about the blueprints. Considering everyone on the facility is dead, it was obvious he wanted Liara to think she was the only one who found out to absolve Alliance's knowledge of it from the Citadel Council. Politically, if Citadel Council knew that Alliance have the knowledge of a massive superweapon for decades, they would have confiscated everything. As shown in the facility, there's too much Prothean troves that it could take centuries to sift through. Now you are mixing up a few things.
Yes, the Alliance knew about the archives (it's not a beacon on mars, it's an archive structure). Of course they knew about it, it's how humanity learned about Mass Effect technology in the first place in 2149.
When Anderson speaks about Saren looking for a weapon in ME1, he does not talk about the crucible. He is speculating that the conduit that Saren is searching for might be a weapon. He does so because of his previous dealings with Saren (described in the novel Revelation) he knows that Saren is an unscrupulous and power hungry individual with a grudge against humans.
On a meta level, Anderson couldn't have talked about the crucible in ME1 because I am pretty sure even the writers themselves had no idea, there would be such a thing before starting to write ME3 itself.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 3, 2018 3:15:25 GMT
I'm surprised no one asked T'soni about taking a look at the Mars archives to see what she could find after the events of ME1.
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Post by davesin on Jul 3, 2018 12:02:57 GMT
Having played ME2 last night out of boredom, I recalled what annoyed me about its combat - squadmates hitting walls and covers instead of enemies (bonus points if they hit the cover Shepard is hiding behind...) with their powers (that are on cooldown for at least 12 seconds).
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jul 3, 2018 14:25:58 GMT
Having played ME2 last night out of boredom, I recalled what annoyed me about its combat - squadmates hitting walls and covers instead of enemies (bonus points if they hit the cover Shepard is hiding behind...) with their powers (that are on cooldown for at least 12 seconds). Turn off their ability to use powers on their own, and micromanage them. Then they are absolutely devastating and almost as powerful as Shep himself. At least that's how I do.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jul 3, 2018 14:46:34 GMT
That's another thing about the whole 'humans are special' shtick that was annoying: the Prothean ruins on Mars.
Of course we would have perfectly intact relics located just one planet over. Hell, the codex even says that still functioning Prothean ships were present at the base; allowing humanity to quickly reverse engineer the technology. Every other species, aside from the Asari, had either partial artifacts they had to piece together and scavenge the technologies present or they had no previous cycles' technology nearby and only became part of galactic society by chance; like the Elcor being present within Asari space for example.
The Batarians despite being, on average, arrogant pricks had a point about their ascension into interstellar society. Their nearby Prothean ruins were badly damaged because of earth quakes and so they had to make do with less. Not saying that having to work harder at uncovering past technologies makes them inherently better than races like humanity, but in terms of "underdog" status (which the game loves to tell us that humans are) having to make do with scraps is a whole lot more underdog-like than finding a perfectly preserved, and still functioning, technological treasure trove. This is further compounded when the Mars archives are shown to not only be one of the most well preserved and complete caches of Prothan technologies (again save the Asari) but is also the only place with intact Crucible blueprints.
Whats more, unlike every other species in the setting, humanity didn't have to hand over complete control of their Martian ruins to Council authorities. The Asari are the only other race that maintains their own control over an intact beacon; and even then they do it under cover of conspiracy and generations long secrets. Humans on the other hand can brazenly say no to standing Council laws and get away with it. It's not a collaborative Council research base on Mars that Cerberus attacks in ME 3 after all, its strictly an Alliance run facility.
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Post by burningcherry on Jul 3, 2018 18:15:09 GMT
The Asari are the only other race that maintains their own control over an intact beacon Source?
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Post by opuspace on Jul 3, 2018 23:36:24 GMT
I'm surprised no one asked T'soni about taking a look at the Mars archives to see what she could find after the events of ME1. My guess is that she was an alien and that no one had any idea yet that there was anything worth looking over that made it stand out compared to all the other Prothean data troves. What IS weird is why Hackett trusts her so much
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Post by themikefest on Jul 4, 2018 14:24:31 GMT
My guess is that she was an alien and that no one had any idea yet that there was anything worth looking over that made it stand out compared to all the other Prothean data troves. Alien or not, she has more knowledge than anyone at the time about the protheans, and with the beacon on Eden Prime revealing the visions that Shepard saw, I don't see why it wouldn't hurt to at least ask her if she would take a look to see if there's anything that can help. Speaking of Eden Prime. Why wouldn't they ask her to take a look at Eden Prime to see if there's anything more that can be found near where the beacon was discovered? I would also like to know why he gave her Shepard's dogtags, according to T'soni, if she isn't romanced, instead of giving them to Mrs. Shepard, for those playing a spacer.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jul 4, 2018 17:47:24 GMT
The Asari are the only other race that maintains their own control over an intact beacon Source? Stated in the background lore as well as overheard conversations in ME 3. All discovered Prothean artifacts must be logged with the Council government, and any intact Prothean sites are under the jurisdiction of the Council. This means that no one species has hold over Prothean technology and the Council reserves the right to staff their own experts and security personnel wherever and whenever they see fit. A really good example of this practice in action is the Hanar homeworld and the Prothean ruins on Kahje. Despite the Hanar being the ones to discover the ruins, as well as said ruins being located on their home planet, very few of them are actually allowed to approach and interact with the relics. Indeed, according to the background chatter in the trilogy the Council races don't use Hanar at all on Protehan sites, as noted when Commander Shepard hears a news story on the Citadel about the Hanar blockading a Prothean ruin being excavated by the Salarians as a form of protest. Seeing as how the Council generally reacts to such finds it seems rather indicative of the "humans are special" trope being liberally applied concerning the ruins on Mars. Aside from Liara, who was invited there by Hacket, the remaining staff of the facility is human, and more specifically, Alliance affiliated. The only other species to have access to their own Prothean tech, outside Council oversight, is the Asari and they only managed that by secrecy and deception. Humanity on the other hand can maintain hold over the Martian site with no backlash from the rest of the galactic community.
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Post by burningcherry on Jul 6, 2018 10:02:20 GMT
Stated in the background lore as well as overheard conversations in ME 3. All discovered Prothean artifacts must be logged with the Council government, and any intact Prothean sites are under the jurisdiction of the Council. This means that no one species has hold over Prothean technology and the Council reserves the right to staff their own experts and security personnel wherever and whenever they see fit. To be precise: if by "maintains one's own control" we mean that the Council can't interfere with it, then it's (if I remember correctly) nowhere said that they couldn't have assigned a representative to it. Maybe they just remember how aggresesive humans are about ther independenece and they believe that one set of ruins is not worth fighting that much. I've heard this story and it isn't stated that these are the Kahje ruins that are talked about. It can even mean that the salarians can research Protheans on their own, in the sense: without any direct participation of the turians or the asari.
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