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Post by sil on Feb 9, 2018 9:39:33 GMT
]In theory, yes, but nowdays videogames are sensitive business, so for example, all possible "colonialism" allegories had to be avoided at all costs. Yes, I know how "colonisation game without colonialism" sounds. I'd say that's wrong. They could've willingly embraced the colonialism to create drama, if they'd done it in an serious, grown up manner. If anything, they should've channeled the allegory of colonialism to create dramatic plots involving the native inhabitants. Although if they had really wanted to avoid the colonialism aspect they should've had the Initative fleeting the Reapers, then they're intergalactic refugee's rather than colonists.
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Post by Elfen Lied on Feb 9, 2018 9:53:27 GMT
A balanced fanbase
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Post by Ahriman on Feb 9, 2018 10:05:47 GMT
]In theory, yes, but nowdays videogames are sensitive business, so for example, all possible "colonialism" allegories had to be avoided at all costs. Yes, I know how "colonisation game without colonialism" sounds. Although if they had really wanted to avoid the colonialism aspect they should've had the Initative fleeting the Reapers, then they're intergalactic refugee's rather than colonists. They technically are, just unaware of it. I think that was Mac who said, that it was deliberate decision to avoid everyone having "I like being alive" as recruitment reason. Understandable, but "MW is just too mainstream" being more interesting reason is questionable.
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Post by tatann on Feb 9, 2018 11:53:23 GMT
It's funny yesterday I played both a bit of ME 2 and MEA and while you can point out to a bunch of little things that MEA doesn't do as well as the trilogy I think it mainly comes down to atmosphere for me. It's hard to explain or convey in words but the MET just had an atmosphere that draws me in and MEA seems to be missing that. I would probably attribute this flaw to 3 things: - Art direction and concept art - it's too lost in details and not inspired enough.
- The score is very, very modest.
- The scenario/narrative direction. It's no space opera. It's a vapid attempt at one but the context isn't strong enough.
For one, the way they introduce the villain isn't properly done. You can't just show an ominous dude with some ominous music looking at a thing and use that as the reason we should think he's bad and we have to stop him. On voeld they did a much better job but as far as the premise goes it's really floundering. Same issue with setting up the Pathfinder role. They didn't do it well. They did it, but it didn't feel substantial. All the typical minutia of a Mass Effect story is missing until you get to the individual planets or the nexus, but then, those feel isolated and not cohesive enough to the larger picture. It feels like it's trying to build lore but without consistency. It does get mildly intriguing around the Scourge, Jien's death and the secret Benefactors near the end though until it abruptly gets cut off as sequel-material that will never materialize ^^
I think Andromeda is good at feeling alien and it does have a sense of the loneliness of space... but it does not balance this out with wonder and a sense of home like ME1 did. Think the scene of discovering the Citadel as a player for the first time. That reveal is so well done and the music compliments that feeling. Andromeda never has anything in this direction except for the very ending, so that's generally not a part of the game itself.
Also, I love blaming Mac for things. He ruined the trilogy But for real though, the way I've started to look at his involvement in the franchise is that I think he represented a very important component to the original trilogy but that component doesn't represent the series as a whole. He needed other perspectives of the other writers and other leads to balance out his own vision for what Mass Effect is because I've noticed across ME3, his comics and writing in Initiation that Mac's version of Mass Effect is grittier and more grounded than the general tone of ME1 or 2, and when there's sci-fi or space-lore it's more akin to something you'd see in a roland emmerich movie than ME1. It has a sense of warmth in the banter between two hardboiled characters, like Shepard and Garrus in ME2, but that warmth isn't really found in the general depiction of the world. Mac was a good aspect of the trilogy such as Afterlife or Cerberus, bounty hunters and mercs, smugglers and warlords, but when it comes to paving the way for the series's general tone as a director he still tries to push that aspect too much, and in Andromeda it shows; it's too gritty somehow. Too grounded, it's lacking that wondrous, magical and hopeful feel that is typically in the other games minus ME3 and its doomsday tone (but then in the parts written by Patrick or Dombrow of resolution and beating reapers with alien friends). I feel like that's the issue with atmosphere and tone in this game. It feels too dark without brevity despite its attempts at having this lighthearted Marvel-esque tone, and that's because it's all made under Mac's direction. He means well but he only represented 1 aspect out of perhaps 5 of those writers that created the original Mass Effect. Thanks for explaining why I liked ME3 less than ME1 and ME2 (despite having no problem at all with ME3 ending). I noticed the tone was all "You're all doomed! Dooooooomed!" but didn't know it was due to a specific writer. I miss being able to confront an overwhelming menace (assault on the Citadel at the end on ME1), having a sense of high stake, but not feeling all gritty about it, just feeling epic Yeah a lot of people died and are dying, but I'm still fighting so I can save as much as possible, I should feel uplifted by it, not depressive
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 9, 2018 14:05:52 GMT
And truth be told, that was how ME1 and 2 did it, so there was a definite shift in tone between 2 and 3. I think it was necessary to show how bad the Reapers were but to take that doom and gloom setting all the way to the ending and with barely any real brevity along the way it made for a kinda souring adventure. I think that's why they all but wrote Harbinger out of the plot as well. It was too "cartoony" or maybe just "too video gamey".
But also, while ME2 delved into the "darker corners of the galaxy" I actually thought ME1 was an overall darker game in tone than 2 as well, however it understood putting the fantastical and the soaring epic moments on top when it helped alleviate the story from taking itself too seriously, and besides 3 is a bad mix. The dialogue is really corny in faux attempts at making it "real"-er and the tone tells you "this is legit." so all those corny moments just become cringeworthy rather than endearing because the style and execution of the narrative is kinda at odds. This was way worse in Andromeda, but nonetheless noticeable in 3 I thought.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 9, 2018 15:05:12 GMT
Regarding the lack of urgency, again, this was a deliberate choice made by the team and which Mac Walters said was a conscious choice. They wanted to enforce a sense of being able to go off and do side-content without a feeling that time would run out or the universe would burn if the player did this, just for immersion. It's misguided and personally it makes me shake my head, but that was how they saw it. Meaning that you'd prefer them to add fake urgency the way ME1 did? That's not the ideal solution. I also recently played Xenoblade Chronicles 2 which is a fantastic RPG of the stort where you bond with the characters and see them develop through a good plot and side-objectives, and that also had the ME1 issue of pushing the main story almost seperately from the optional content, encouraging you to stop in the middle of really dire situations to fast-travel across the world and do a meandering character miniquest. I don't think Andromeda is an improvement over ME1's solution however. I think ME2 is sorta more like it where the game opens up as you start and there's several pockets within the main story where you're allowed to do what you wanna do but then at some point the urgent main plot does kick in and you're kinda forced to stick to that for a moment. That's also why I dislike the new Zelda despite all the praise. It's so open that I'm just meandering all the time. I much prefer games with a structure that goes like "open player freedom, then linear, critpath stuff, more freedom, then critpath, more freedom, then finale and ending that finishes the game for good" I don't play games to just be inside a fictional world indefinitely. I hate MMOs and never play them for very long when I try. I just want games that go for a finite amount of time and letting me stay invested for a while but not to the point where I get sick of it, get self-conscious of how much RL time I waste and that's why I don't want games like DAI or Andromeda where the urgency is gone in favor of making the player spend as much time as possible inside a sandbox to meander about so EA can get their "100 hours played" statistics to impress their investors.
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by LogicGunn on Feb 9, 2018 16:43:57 GMT
Mostly it was missing development time to realise many of the awesome original concepts and beta testing.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 9, 2018 17:33:29 GMT
Giving some thought after a few playthroughs, I guess my biggest thing, especially in light of the game's pulled support, would be:
Self-containment: The game should have fully resolved itself. One of the great things about Dragon Age: Origins is that the setting can live on after the Warden's story, but the Warden's story itself has a proper beginning, middle and end where just about everything about the main conflict is fully resolved, but that's not what happens here. The Jaardan, the source of the scourge, and the other goings on with the Prefect, etc.. Putting aside for a moment that the game clearly suffers from a lack of focus in its early development on the part of the Montreal team, it should have simply answered all of its major questions right here and then. It may not have saved it for people who strongly dislike the game, but for those who did, like myself, it would be easier to get more satisfaction out of it, especially since hope for any follow-up is questionable.
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Post by cypherj on Feb 9, 2018 17:53:56 GMT
Mostly it was missing development time to realise many of the awesome original concepts and beta testing. Five years wasn't enough? There's a huge difference between not having enough time and mismanaging the time you were given.
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Post by Fogg on Feb 9, 2018 18:01:54 GMT
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Post by goishen on Feb 9, 2018 18:09:06 GMT
The thing that really got to me was this idea that we gonna be ending a generations long war, with both sides equally as powerful as one another in different ways. For example, one side could be more technologically savvy and one side could be more hand to hand savvy. That type of thing. Of course the list would go on, but you get the idea.
I thought we would be choosing sides, not having that choice mapped out for us well before we started the game.
I dunno, it just seems to me that everything that made an ME game wasn't here. They attempted to put some stuff there, but they failed. Miserably.
*shrug*
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Post by themikefest on Feb 9, 2018 18:13:16 GMT
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Post by Iakus on Feb 9, 2018 18:24:30 GMT
Isn't that what the "romances" were for?
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Post by Amirit on Feb 9, 2018 19:01:08 GMT
Regarding the lack of urgency, again, this was a deliberate choice made by the team and which Mac Walters said was a conscious choice. They wanted to enforce a sense of being able to go off and do side-content without a feeling that time would run out or the universe would burn if the player did this, just for immersion. It's misguided and personally it makes me shake my head, but that was how they saw it. I would not be so sure it's true. I mean, - of course, he said it, but if you are left with 1.5 year to develop a game from scratch (including game plot), and that game is not even your main project, what would you do? The choice was obvious - light mix of elements from previous games for a simple fast plot, sprinkled (again, lightly) with fans favorites features and big emphasize of multiplayer, in hope gamers will entertain themselves. There is no room here for deep thoughts or complicated decisions and strategic planning. Yet, you also have to sell what you made - hence, all "bugs" (actually, "time/budget adequate decisions") were declared "features" and results of long time planning. And you have to be convincing and adamant about consciousness and necessity of said decisions.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 9, 2018 19:43:12 GMT
A save system that wasn't completly broken and did its job would have been really helpful. Mind you a lot of other game companies are trying to get artsy fartsy with their save systems these days, tis a depressing trend. It's less about "trying to get artsy" and more about lack of experience. I'm 90% sure, these problems are the result of mission spawns in open world areas, it seemed like they simply couldn't track your progress and work with remaining foes in coherent way. So they just said "screw this" and made all-or-nothing system, which is the easiest to implement. The saddest thing was that the game didn't even need a villain. In theory, yes, but nowdays videogames are sensitive business, so for example, all possible "colonialism" allegories had to be avoided at all costs. Yes, I know how "colonisation game without colonialism" sounds. That doesn't explain why saves are restricted during the LMs, though. Those are linear, and that's where problems typically show up. As for colonialism, ME:A actually has a colonialism story. Thing is, it's about the kett, not the AI.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 9, 2018 19:44:17 GMT
Isn't that what the "romances" were for? Why the quotes there?
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 9, 2018 19:50:13 GMT
The thing that really got to me was this idea that we gonna be ending a generations long war, with both sides equally as powerful as one another in different ways. For example, one side could be more technologically savvy and one side could be more hand to hand savvy. That type of thing. Of course the list would go on, but you get the idea. I thought we would be choosing sides, not having that choice mapped out for us well before we started the game. I dunno, it just seems to me that everything that made an ME game wasn't here. They attempted to put some stuff there, but they failed. Miserably. *shrug* Nice in theory, but how would you do a sequel? It could work if whichever side we choose doesn't really matter long-term. TW1 works this way -- Geralt can't really influence the conflict, whether he takes a side or agrees with Triss that he shouldn't.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 9, 2018 20:01:06 GMT
The urgency in the trilogy's main plot was one of its weaknesses. Especially in ME 2. "Shepard the collectors are out there kidnapping human colonies" "Can't deal with it now I have to go sabotage a robot factory"
Paradoxically MEA had the opposite problem. The main plot you could take mostly at your leisure but a lot of the side quests are now now now ordeal.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 9, 2018 20:30:32 GMT
Mostly it was missing development time to realise many of the awesome original concepts and beta testing. Does that include the premise of going to Andromeda to explore the unknown?
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Post by Iakus on Feb 9, 2018 20:39:38 GMT
Isn't that what the "romances" were for? Why the quotes there? Because they felt kinda flat and lifeless with no real development until sexitimes ensues.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 9, 2018 21:44:32 GMT
Because they felt kinda flat and lifeless with no real development until sexitimes ensues. In spite of the....awkwardness...of initiating Suvi's romance path, I felt that this one had some modicum of growth compared to the others. Dragon Age always did this better than any ME game so it makes no difference to me.
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Post by jpcab on Feb 9, 2018 22:04:02 GMT
Simple...after Shepard they have done a game directed to teenagers.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 9, 2018 22:07:44 GMT
By which you mean one that is universally positive and approving no matter how unimpressive and undeserving the result is?
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 9, 2018 22:19:01 GMT
The urgency in the trilogy's main plot was one of its weaknesses. Especially in ME 2. "Shepard the collectors are out there kidnapping human colonies" "Can't deal with it now I have to go sabotage a robot factory" Paradoxically MEA had the opposite problem. The main plot you could take mostly at your leisure but a lot of the side quests are now now now ordeal. I think ME2's issue was that the main plot rested mainly on following the dossiers. Other than that, Shepard had no direction to go in until TIM figured out the next move.
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Post by scootshoot on Feb 9, 2018 22:41:27 GMT
Andromeda needed to start off more with a bang at the beginning of the game to draw you in. As it stands now, the game starts off slow. Most of the reviewers that post reviews up of a game within a day or 2 of launch guaranteed spent half a day at most before finishing up their write ups.
Am loving this game so far (bought it a few weeks ago for 20 bucks). Started off slow but once the world starts opening up and one gets a better feel of the game mechanics it starts to draw you in.
It's basically a space age form of Dragon Age Inquisition. Lots of crafting, resource gathering, huge world to explore and lots and lots of quests. One thing this game did right compared to DAI is the travel aspect. While DAI had a huge world to explore it was mostly done by foot...the mounts were garbage as you did not get any sense of speed and one couldn't even gather resources on them so most gamers ignored that aspect of the game completely compared to MEA where driving around in the Nomad is a lot of fun and the added ability to customize the vehicle is great as well.
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