Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway?

alanc9
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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 3, 2018 17:23:38 GMT

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Post by alanc9 on Aug 3, 2018 17:23:38 GMT

OTOH, a lot of people did react the way Vortex13 did. Maybe the takeaway should be that breadth is better than depth. I can see a case for diverting a large percentage of the angara resources into making a bunch of cameo races with limited phenotypes, animation sets, and conversations.

Of course, that approach would probably just have left us with even more complaints about the other W races not making the cut.

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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 3, 2018 17:48:22 GMT Hanako Ikezawa, KrrKs, and 1 more like this

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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 17:48:22 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 17:23:38 GMT alanc9 said:

OTOH, a lot of people did react the way Vortex13 did. Maybe the takeaway should be that breadth is better than depth. I can see a case for diverting a large percentage of the angara resources into making a bunch of cameo races with limited phenotypes, animation sets, and conversations.

Of course, that approach would probably just have left us with even more complaints about the other W races not making the cut.

I think Andromeda would have always felt "less alien" than ME1 because in ME1, every species was new except for the humans. Andromeda was carrying multiple Milky Way species into the galaxy and had to make unique parts of the story for them... and those parts carried over the familiar elements of their history and culture. What would the point have been to have the Krogan along and not consume some of the Andromeda story rehashing a genophage issue. In ME1, the genophage was new. In ME:A, it was familiar. I think the expectation that ME:A would be totally alien to us was unrealistic from the start. The only way for that to have happened would have been to introduce it as an entirely new IP with entirely different lore and entirely new species throughout. The manner in which they introduced us to the new species (Angara, Kett and Remnant), IMHO was far better done than in ME1. In ME1, we often had a single conversation infodump and the species was then arbitrarily and uniformly that... no variance of opinion shown. In ME:A, we saw first-hand all sorts of different elements of Angaran culture and played a role in causing their entire perception of themselves change over the course of the story. Even after 3 games, all I really know about the Elcor was stated in a single conversation with Calyn. Of course, they are going to seem "alien" (i.e. unfamiliar) because I've learned nothing about them. I know almost as much about the Fiends in Andromeda. I also suspect that we might even evenutally discover that some of those "animal" species are more sentient than we currently believe them to be.

Last Edit: Aug 3, 2018 17:51:11 GMT by Deleted

Vortex13
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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 3, 2018 17:49:39 GMT themikefest likes this

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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 3, 2018 17:49:39 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 17:06:02 GMT @upagain said:

Aug 3, 2018 13:08:08 GMT Vortex13 said:

Milky Way, if for no other reason than because it had actual aliens in it. And no I don't count bisexual blue/purple people, interstellar rombas, or 'not-Collectors' as being alien in any stretch of the imagination.

In ME 1 alone we were introduced to: Turians, Asari, Salarians, Krogan, Volus, Elcor, Hanar, Rachni, the Thorian, Reapers, Geth, Quarians, and Batarians (if you want to count DLC, of which ME 1 actually had). Of those 13 alien species 4 of them (6 if you want to technically include the Geth and Reapers from the first title) were distinctly non-human in their appearance as well as perspective on things; but all of them were fairly unique and had considerable thought and effort put behind their creation.

Its rather underwhelming when you consider that despite traveling over 2 million light years, Andromeda felt far more familiar (i.e. boring) than our own home galaxy did.

Your preference is your preference, but there should be a little perspective put on the claim of just how "alien" ME1 was with respect to races. In ME1, we were introduced to precisely 1 quarian (Tali). We were able to talk with 2 Elcor: Calyn (Elcor ambassador) and the Elcor shopkeeper on Noveria. We were able to talk to 5 krogan in total: Wrex, Inamorda, Jax, the Krogan Bounty Hunter, and the Bouncer in Chora's Den (all male); no female krogan were evident. In ME1, we were able to talk with 3 hanar: Delan, the Preaching Hanar, and Opold; again, all male. Similarly, we were able to to 3 volus: Barla Von, Han Olar, and Din Korlack; again, all male. We were albe to talk with a few different Salarians, but again, all male. We were also only able to talk with a few turians: Garrus, Saren, Palin, Nihilus, and the Councillor. With the exception of the Turians, the species was shown with only one body model. Saren had a unique body model, but even Garrus was so similar to the other turians wandering aimlessly about the Citadel that is was sometimes difficult to tell him apart (other than the fact that we could put him into different armor).

Now for ME:A - The Kett had both male and female members and individual sub-types with distinctly different body types. That is, a Destined Kett was very different in appearance from an Annointed Kett. The Angara also had both male and female members and we were able to explore their culture in far more detail throughout the game than the singular conversation infodumps we were handed in ME1. That enabled us to see for ourselves the variances in opinions among the Angara. Rather than being a species of a singular type and opinion, we could see that some held with, say, a belief in reincarnation and others disagreed with it. It is a more realistic way to present a species to us... and that's why, perhaps, it seems more natural and familiar.

You also forget to mention that several of the Milky Way species were still with us in Andromeda... and that alone would make the galaxy seem less alien. Since ME:A was done on a different game engine, Bioware had to re-create all those Milky Way species we saw in the game... and there was a clear promise given that we would eventually also see hanar, volus, elcor and quarians. Since 99.99999999% of the Andromeda galaxy remains unexplored by the Initiative, I'm also confident there would have been more new alien species introduced to us in future games (and hopefully those future games will be coming).

I'm all for eventually returning to the Milky Way... and bringing along some Angara, remnant, and even Kett for the ride... as well as adding new ones.

You are forgetting the background lore that helped establish those aliens in ME 1. In just talking to the 2 Elcor we could only assume that they talked funny, it was in supplemental background codex entries that helped flesh out why they talked the way they did, at how "a human smile was as subtle as a fireworks display" to them. The Codex entries, coupled with the interactions we got in ME 1, is what set them apart. And seeing females, and appearance variations, of those various aliens also was't as important as getting a solid idea of an 'alien' species and their society, and general perspective on things was (IMO).

Sure, the Khett have more model variation to them than your Rachni or Hanar had, but what good that serve them overall? They are still cheap 'not Collectors' with practically zero exploration of what makes them tick, and precisely zero effort put into making them feel like fully fleshed out aliens. Instead they are literately mindless monsters the player kills for XP and loot. And the Anagaran might have well had just been humans with purple/blue face paint for all the cultural and societal differences between them and the races of the Initiative; even their biology is a flimsy afterthought, with no real impact on the overall narrative. The biggest take aways they do offer is that they tend to have big families and that they are collectively 'highly emotional'; sounds more like a teenage girl than an alien species.

As for the Milky Way races in Andromeda, they were watered down versions of their original counterparts. Despite being the more human-like of the Milky Way aliens in this franchise they still had distinguishing elements that set them apart in ME 1. All of that is gone in ME:A. Turians, Asari, Salarians, and Krogan all act more like humans wearing rubber masks in this game than they did in the previous trilogy. Which, I could marginally overlook if all said simplification was in the name of giving us more 'alien' aliens in the Hellius Cluster, but as it is, they are pale imitations than only vaguely resemble their original concepts, who accompany Ryder as he/she meets ~~aliens~~ other humans in rubber consumes, in the form of the Angara.

The writers really failed here. Gone are the nuances of your Chris L'Etoiles, people who wanted to explore intellectual ideas about what alien life might look like and are instead replaced with writers more interested in 'Rule of Cool' and meeting a checkbox of trending social political topics; especially if the whole #makeJaalBi debacle is anything to go by.

Last Edit: Aug 3, 2018 20:14:18 GMT by Vortex13

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us, but because they are incapable of good, honest human hatred.
-Inquisitor Agmar

Human, your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.
- Harbinger

Vortex13
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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 3, 2018 17:59:58 GMT KrrKs likes this

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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 3, 2018 17:59:58 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 17:23:38 GMT alanc9 said:

OTOH, a lot of people did react the way Vortex13 did. Maybe the takeaway should be that breadth is better than depth. I can see a case for diverting a large percentage of the angara resources into making a bunch of cameo races with limited phenotypes, animation sets, and conversations.

Of course, that approach would probably just have left us with even more complaints about the other W races not making the cut.

Not really. Depth is generally far better than breadth. Honestly, I would have been perfectly fine with only one or two new aliens in Andromeda if they were actually, you know, alien.

As it is, even the brief cameos of the Elcor, Hanar, and Rachni in ME 1 felt far more memorable, and unique (all of whom were written by Chris L'Etoile) than anything we saw out of the Angara. Those three aliens were distinctly different than humanity, and not just in simple terms of appearance either. The Angaran, on the other hand, felt like they were just put there so players could have a new f***k buddy.

Last Edit: Aug 3, 2018 20:13:56 GMT by Vortex13

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us, but because they are incapable of good, honest human hatred.
-Inquisitor Agmar

Human, your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.
- Harbinger

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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 3, 2018 19:22:59 GMT Hanako Ikezawa, KrrKs, and 1 more like this

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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 19:22:59 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 17:49:39 GMT Vortex13 said:

Aug 3, 2018 17:06:02 GMT @upagain said:

Your preference is your preference, but there should be a little perspective put on the claim of just how "alien" ME1 was with respect to races. In ME1, we were introduced to precisely 1 quarian (Tali). We were able to talk with 2 Elcor: Calyn (Elcor ambassador) and the Elcor shopkeeper on Noveria. We were able to talk to 5 krogan in total: Wrex, Inamorda, Jax, the Krogan Bounty Hunter, and the Bouncer in Chora's Den (all male); no female krogan were evident. In ME1, we were able to talk with 3 hanar: Delan, the Preaching Hanar, and Opold; again, all male. Similarly, we were able to to 3 volus: Barla Von, Han Olar, and Din Korlack; again, all male. We were albe to talk with a few different Salarians, but again, all male. We were also only able to talk with a few turians: Garrus, Saren, Palin, Nihilus, and the Councillor. With the exception of the Turians, the species was shown with only one body model. Saren had a unique body model, but even Garrus was so similar to the other turians wandering aimlessly about the Citadel that is was sometimes difficult to tell him apart (other than the fact that we could put him into different armor).

Now for ME:A - The Kett had both male and female members and individual sub-types with distinctly different body types. That is, a Destined Kett was very different in appearance from an Annointed Kett. The Angara also had both male and female members and we were able to explore their culture in far more detail throughout the game than the singular conversation infodumps we were handed in ME1. That enabled us to see for ourselves the variances in opinions among the Angara. Rather than being a species of a singular type and opinion, we could see that some held with, say, a belief in reincarnation and others disagreed with it. It is a more realistic way to present a species to us... and that's why, perhaps, it seems more natural and familiar.

You also forget to mention that several of the Milky Way species were still with us in Andromeda... and that alone would make the galaxy seem less alien. Since ME:A was done on a different game engine, Bioware had to re-create all those Milky Way species we saw in the game... and there was a clear promise given that we would eventually also see hanar, volus, elcor and quarians. Since 99.99999999% of the Andromeda galaxy remains unexplored by the Initiative, I'm also confident there would have been more new alien species introduced to us in future games (and hopefully those future games will be coming).

I'm all for eventually returning to the Milky Way... and bringing along some Angara, remnant, and even Kett for the ride... as well as adding new ones.

You are forgetting the background lore that helped establish those aliens in ME 1. In just talking to the 2 Elcor we could only assume that they talked funny, it was in supplemental background codex entries that helped flesh out why they talked the way they did, at how "a human smile was as subtle as a fireworks display" to them. The Codex entries, coupled with the interactions we got in ME 1, is what set them apart. And seeing females, and appearance variations, of those various aliens also was't as important as getting a solid idea of an 'alien' species and their society, and general perspective on things was (IMO).

Sure, the Khett have more model variation to them than your Rachni or Hanar had, but what good that serve them overall? They are still cheap 'not Collectors' with practically zero exploration of what makes them tick, and precisely zero effort put into making them feel like fully fleshed out aliens. Instead they are literately mindless monsters the player kills for XP and loot. And the Anagaran might have well had just been humans with purple/blue face paint for all the cultural and societal differences between them and the races of the Initiative; even their biology is a flimsy afterthought, with no real impact on the overall narrative. The biggest take aways they do offer is that they tend to have big families and that they are collectively 'highly emotional'; sounds more like a teenage girl than an alien species.

As for the Milky Way races in Andromeda, they were watered down versions of their original counterparts. Despite being the more human-like of the Milky Way aliens in this franchise they still had distinguishing elements that set them apart in ME 1. All of that is gone in ME:A. Turians, Asari, Salarians, and Krogan all act more like humans wearing rubber masks in this game than they did in the previous trilogy. Which, I could marginally overlook if all said simplification was in the name of giving us more 'alien' aliens in the Hellius Cluster, but as it is, they are pale imitations than only vaguely resemble their original concepts, who accompany Ryder as he/she meets ~~aliens~~ other humans in rubber consumes, in the form of the Angara.

The writers really failed here. Gone are the nuances of your Chris Le'Toiles, people who wanted to explore intellectual ideas about what alien life might look like and are instead replaced with writers more interested in 'Rule of Cool' and meeting a checkbox of trending social political topics; especially if the whole #makeJaalBi debacle is anything to go by.

OK, let's do a direct comparison:

Entire codex entry for the Elcor in ME1: "The elcor are a Citadel species native to the high-gravity world Dekuuna. They are massive creatures, standing on four muscular legs for increased stability. Elcor move slowly, an evolved repsonse to an environment where a fall can be lethal. This has colored their psychology, making them deliberate and conservative. Elcor speech is ponderous and monotone. Among themselves, scent, slight movements, and subvocalized infrasound convey shades of meaning that make a human smile seem as subtle as a fireworks display. Since their subtlety can lead to misunderstandings with other species, the elcor often go out of their way to clarify when they are being sarcastic, amused, or angry. Dekunna's high gravity impedes mountain formation. Most of the world consists of flat, open plains, which prehistoric elcor wandered across in small family bands. Modern elcor still prefer open sky, and can become restless and uncomfortable on long starship journeys."

Entire codex entry for "Remnant: Creators" (i.e. the Jardaan, which is only one of 14 separate codex entries on the Remnant) - The Jardaan are a mysterious species or faction responsible for building the bots and technology known as the Remnant. According to recordings and findings from Khi Tasira, they were interested in not only wide-scale terraforming but the creation of sentient life. One of the successful creations, the angara, were seeded on multiple worlds in the Heleus Cluster. The Jardaan's motivations for this creation are still unknown. Their work was disrupted by gthe deplyment of the Scourge weapon, the result of either an external threat or a rift in Jardaan society. This weapon devastated the worlds that the Jardaan had cultivated and forced them to leave the Helus Cluster, though not before disengaging Meridan and sending it to safety. The present whereabouts and disposition of the Jardaan are not known. Whether they will return to Heleus remains to be seen."

Entire codex entry for "Andromeda Wildlife: Manta" (one of 2 codes entries on Heleus Flora and Fauna): Nicknamed a "manta" by Andromeda Initiative observers, the majestic creature has been sighted on several worlds in the Heleus Cluster. The Nexus scientists believe it may have originally evolved on a world with heavy deposits of element zero, giving it the ability to lower its mass enough to "swim" through the air. Expanding the muscular gas bladders on its underside allows the creature to rise and orient itself in flight. Despite its size - roughly 30m - the manta is not a threat to outposts or explorers. It appears to subsist on mineral deposits from rock formations, wrapping tiself around rock spires or even against cliff faces to remain camouflaged while it feeds. Their camouflage ability suggests that these mantas have predators or other reasons to remain hidden, but thus far the reasons remain unclear."

Now, IMHO, we know almost as much about the Manta as the Elcor... and the manta are a species we don't get to talk to yet at all and really have no idea whether or not it is sentient yet. The codes entry on the Jardaan is even far more detailed than the Elcor one... and the Jardaan are also a species we have yet to actually converse with, and the game is hinting very strongly that that species would have become a focus in a future installment.

In addition, the entire second paragraph/sentence in the Elcor codex entry boils down to "They talk funny." So, I'm just not seeing all this extra detail you're claiming exists in the ME1 codex; and I personally think the writing in the ME:A codex is just as good as the ME1 one, if not better. The ME1 Elcor codex entry basically just repeats everything that Calyn can say in that single conversation you get with him. The ME:A codex entry more accurately shows a scientific process of learning about something you've never seen before and it reflect the fact that there is much yet to be learned about those species as well.

Last Edit: Aug 3, 2018 19:47:02 GMT by Deleted

alanc9 N7 Old Scientist Contrarian Posts: 8,050 Likes: 9,645 alanc9 inherit Male 3439 0 Nov 25, 2024 8:25:21 GMT 9,645 alanc9 Old Scientist Contrarian 8,050 N7 Feb 7, 2017 19:42:52 GMT February 2017 alanc9	Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 3, 2018 19:25:00 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by alanc9 on Aug 3, 2018 19:25:00 GMT Pretty much, yeah. Gamers being what they are, I'm not sure making the major new race in ME:A non-romance-compatible would have gone over too well.

Vortex13
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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 3, 2018 19:59:42 GMT

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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 3, 2018 19:59:42 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 19:22:59 GMT @upagain said:

Aug 3, 2018 17:49:39 GMT Vortex13 said:

You are forgetting the background lore that helped establish those aliens in ME 1. In just talking to the 2 Elcor we could only assume that they talked funny, it was in supplemental background codex entries that helped flesh out why they talked the way they did, at how "a human smile was as subtle as a fireworks display" to them. The Codex entries, coupled with the interactions we got in ME 1, is what set them apart. And seeing females, and appearance variations, of those various aliens also was't as important as getting a solid idea of an 'alien' species and their society, and general perspective on things was (IMO).

Sure, the Khett have more model variation to them than your Rachni or Hanar had, but what good that serve them overall? They are still cheap 'not Collectors' with practically zero exploration of what makes them tick, and precisely zero effort put into making them feel like fully fleshed out aliens. Instead they are literately mindless monsters the player kills for XP and loot. And the Anagaran might have well had just been humans with purple/blue face paint for all the cultural and societal differences between them and the races of the Initiative; even their biology is a flimsy afterthought, with no real impact on the overall narrative. The biggest take aways they do offer is that they tend to have big families and that they are collectively 'highly emotional'; sounds more like a teenage girl than an alien species.

As for the Milky Way races in Andromeda, they were watered down versions of their original counterparts. Despite being the more human-like of the Milky Way aliens in this franchise they still had distinguishing elements that set them apart in ME 1. All of that is gone in ME:A. Turians, Asari, Salarians, and Krogan all act more like humans wearing rubber masks in this game than they did in the previous trilogy. Which, I could marginally overlook if all said simplification was in the name of giving us more 'alien' aliens in the Hellius Cluster, but as it is, they are pale imitations than only vaguely resemble their original concepts, who accompany Ryder as he/she meets ~~aliens~~ other humans in rubber consumes, in the form of the Angara.

The writers really failed here. Gone are the nuances of your Chris Le'Toiles, people who wanted to explore intellectual ideas about what alien life might look like and are instead replaced with writers more interested in 'Rule of Cool' and meeting a checkbox of trending social political topics; especially if the whole #makeJaalBi debacle is anything to go by.

OK, let's do a direct comparison:

Entire codex entry for the Elcor in ME1: "The elcor are a Citadel species native to the high-gravity world Dekuuna. They are massive creatures, standing on four muscular legs for increased stability. Elcor move slowly, an evolved repsonse to an environment where a fall can be lethal. This has colored their psychology, making them deliberate and conservative. Elcor speech is ponderous and monotone. Among themselves, scent, slight movements, and subvocalized infrasound convey shades of meaning that make a human smile seem as subtle as a fireworks display. Since their subtlety can lead to misunderstandings with other species, the elcor often go out of their way to clarify when they are being sarcastic, amused, or angry. Dekunna's high gravity impedes mountain formation. Most of the world consists of flat, open plains, which prehistoric elcor wandered across in small family bands. Modern elcor still prefer open sky, and can become restless and uncomfortable on long starship journeys."

Entire codex entry for "Remnant: Creators" (i.e. the Jardaan), which is only one of 14 separate codex entries on the Remnant) - The Jardaan are a mysterious species or faction responsible for building the bots and technology known as the Remnant. According to recordings and findings from Khi Tasira, they were interested in not only wide-scale terraforming but the creation of sentient life. One of the succedssful creations, the angara, were seeded on multiple worlds in the Heleus Cluster. The Jardaan's motivations for this creation are still unknown. Their work was disrupted by gthe deplyment of the Scourge weapon, the result of either an external threat or a rift in Jardaan society. This weapon devastated the worlds that the Jardaan had cultivated and forced them to leave the Helus Cluster, though not before disengaging Meridan and sending it to safety. The present whereabouts and disposition of the Jardaan are not known. Whether they will return to Heleus remains to be seen."

Entire codex entry for "Andromeda Wildlife: Manta" (one of 2 codes entries on Heleus Flora and Fauna): Nicknamed a "manta" by Andromeda Initiative observers, the majestic creature has been sighted on several worlds in the Heleus Cluster. The Nexus scientists believe it may have originally evolved on a world with heavy deposits of element zero, giving it the ability to lower its mass enough to "swim" through the air. Expanding the muscular gas bladders on its underside allows the creature to rise and orient itself in flight. Despite its size - roughly 30m - the manta is not a threat to outposts or explorers. It appears to subsist on mineral deposits from rock formations, wrapping tiself around rock spires or even against cliff faces to remain camouflaged while it feeds. Their camouflage ability suggests that these mantas have predators or other reasons to remain hidden, but thus far the reasons remain unclear."

Now, IMHO, we know almost as much about the Manta (a species we don't get to talk to yet at all and really have no idea whether or not it is sentient yet). The codes entry on the Jardaan is even far more detailed than the Elcor one... and the Jardaan are also a species we have yet to actually converse with, and the game is hinting very strongly that that species would have become a focus in a future instalment.

In addition, the entire second paragraph/sentence in the Elcor codex entry boils down to "They talk funny." So, I'm just not seeing all this extra detail you're claiming exists in the ME1 codex; and I personally think the writing in the ME:A codex is just as good as the ME1 one, if not better. The ME1 Elcor codex entry basically just repeats everything that Calyn can say in that single conversation you get with him.

Yes, their supplied lore is only as long as that of the Manta. The key difference is that on top of the codex entry for races like the Elcor, we also go to interact with them, to see those points mentioned in said codex entry apply to a real time interaction with them. We are given both the show & tell presentation. Collectively, our interactions with the Elcor, was minor (especially what little of it there is that doesn't see them as a butt of jokes that ME 2&3 turned them into) but it did work to create an impression of a distinctly alien species.

When talking to the Elcor ambassador, for instance, my take away was less about how it 'talked funny' and more about how this being was going out of it's way to clarify what it was saying, for Shepard's benefit; and that unlike the human and volus ambassadors, it wasn't whining about perceived injustices either. Even the seemingly unrelated footnotes about the nature of the Elcor home world served to distinguish the alien species from just being a human in a suit. Evolving under gravity five times more intense than any of the other known species meant that they were arguably the physically strongest aliens in the galaxy. This fact, coupled with their slow and deliberate nature, even when not in danger of Deunka's gravity well, gave the impression of a species of gentle giants, who had to be that slow and deliberate out of concern for what they could do to the more flimsy and impetuous races around them. Even Garus makes mention of this underlying strength when he recalls his tracking down of an Elcor serial killer on the Citadel, at how it's victims were found in literal pieces; likely ripped apart.

Andromeda's take on the Manta falls flat because other than a brief codex entry, and it being a slightly more animated background prop, we as players never interact with it. That's not an 'alien' so much as a piece of trivia about an arguably useless subject. Manta's have no real weight within the setting, they aren't a part of the Helius cluster so much as an random blurb attached to a floating gas bag. Speaking of which, it would be more apt to compare Andromeda's Manta, to the Milky Way's Gas Bags, or Shifty Looking Space Cows, for how much it impacted the overall setting. The Elcor, and Hanar on the other hand were apart of the setting.

As for the Jardaan and the Remnant, they are just like the Manta. All they are is words in a codex entry. BioWare telling us about them rather than actually showing this 'alien' nuance. I would compare them to the Protheans and Reapers in ME 1, but those were superior in that title. In addition to their own speculative lore segments players got to actually interact with them in the form of Sovereign and the Vigil VI. Granted, those scenes were brief, and in Vigil's case, were only revealed a fragment of what they were actually about, but they were still established as part of the setting from game one; allowed us players got to get a feel for their motivations and perceptions.

The Jardaan and Remnant only have the promise of what they might be, in possible DLC or sequels. Sure, it's easy to imagine them as being far more nuanced and in-depth than anything we've seen in the franchise so far, but that's just it. Predictions on how they might turn out, based on a few random codex entries should BioWare deign to give us an ME:A 2. Whereas the Rachni, Elcor, Hanar, Protheans, and Reapers were firmly established, though with room for extensive elaboration, in the base game of ME 1.

Last Edit: Aug 3, 2018 20:17:03 GMT by Vortex13

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us, but because they are incapable of good, honest human hatred.
-Inquisitor Agmar

Human, your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.
- Harbinger

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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 3, 2018 22:17:39 GMT via mobile Unicephalon 40-D likes this

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Post by griffith82 on Aug 3, 2018 22:17:39 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 19:59:42 GMT Vortex13 said:

Aug 3, 2018 19:22:59 GMT @upagain said:

OK, let's do a direct comparison:

Entire codex entry for the Elcor in ME1: "The elcor are a Citadel species native to the high-gravity world Dekuuna. They are massive creatures, standing on four muscular legs for increased stability. Elcor move slowly, an evolved repsonse to an environment where a fall can be lethal. This has colored their psychology, making them deliberate and conservative. Elcor speech is ponderous and monotone. Among themselves, scent, slight movements, and subvocalized infrasound convey shades of meaning that make a human smile seem as subtle as a fireworks display. Since their subtlety can lead to misunderstandings with other species, the elcor often go out of their way to clarify when they are being sarcastic, amused, or angry. Dekunna's high gravity impedes mountain formation. Most of the world consists of flat, open plains, which prehistoric elcor wandered across in small family bands. Modern elcor still prefer open sky, and can become restless and uncomfortable on long starship journeys."

Entire codex entry for "Remnant: Creators" (i.e. the Jardaan), which is only one of 14 separate codex entries on the Remnant) - The Jardaan are a mysterious species or faction responsible for building the bots and technology known as the Remnant. According to recordings and findings from Khi Tasira, they were interested in not only wide-scale terraforming but the creation of sentient life. One of the succedssful creations, the angara, were seeded on multiple worlds in the Heleus Cluster. The Jardaan's motivations for this creation are still unknown. Their work was disrupted by gthe deplyment of the Scourge weapon, the result of either an external threat or a rift in Jardaan society. This weapon devastated the worlds that the Jardaan had cultivated and forced them to leave the Helus Cluster, though not before disengaging Meridan and sending it to safety. The present whereabouts and disposition of the Jardaan are not known. Whether they will return to Heleus remains to be seen."

Entire codex entry for "Andromeda Wildlife: Manta" (one of 2 codes entries on Heleus Flora and Fauna): Nicknamed a "manta" by Andromeda Initiative observers, the majestic creature has been sighted on several worlds in the Heleus Cluster. The Nexus scientists believe it may have originally evolved on a world with heavy deposits of element zero, giving it the ability to lower its mass enough to "swim" through the air. Expanding the muscular gas bladders on its underside allows the creature to rise and orient itself in flight. Despite its size - roughly 30m - the manta is not a threat to outposts or explorers. It appears to subsist on mineral deposits from rock formations, wrapping tiself around rock spires or even against cliff faces to remain camouflaged while it feeds. Their camouflage ability suggests that these mantas have predators or other reasons to remain hidden, but thus far the reasons remain unclear."

Now, IMHO, we know almost as much about the Manta (a species we don't get to talk to yet at all and really have no idea whether or not it is sentient yet). The codes entry on the Jardaan is even far more detailed than the Elcor one... and the Jardaan are also a species we have yet to actually converse with, and the game is hinting very strongly that that species would have become a focus in a future instalment.

In addition, the entire second paragraph/sentence in the Elcor codex entry boils down to "They talk funny." So, I'm just not seeing all this extra detail you're claiming exists in the ME1 codex; and I personally think the writing in the ME:A codex is just as good as the ME1 one, if not better. The ME1 Elcor codex entry basically just repeats everything that Calyn can say in that single conversation you get with him.

Yes, their supplied lore is only as long as that of the Manta. The key difference is that on top of the codex entry for races like the Elcor, we also go to interact with them, to see those points mentioned in said codex entry apply to a real time interaction with them. We are given both the show & tell presentation. Collectively, our interactions with the Elcor, was minor (especially what little of it there is that doesn't see them as a butt of jokes that ME 2&3 turned them into) but it did work to create an impression of a distinctly alien species.

When talking to the Elcor ambassador, for instance, my take away was less about how it 'talked funny' and more about how this being was going out of it's way to clarify what it was saying, for Shepard's benefit; and that unlike the human and volus ambassadors, it wasn't whining about perceived injustices either. Even the seemingly unrelated footnotes about the nature of the Elcor home world served to distinguish the alien species from just being a human in a suit. Evolving under gravity five times more intense than any of the other known species meant that they were arguably the physically strongest aliens in the galaxy. This fact, coupled with their slow and deliberate nature, even when not in danger of Deunka's gravity well, gave the impression of a species of gentle giants, who had to be that slow and deliberate out of concern for what they could do to the more flimsy and impetuous races around them. Even Garus makes mention of this underlying strength when he recalls his tracking down of an Elcor serial killer on the Citadel, at how it's victims were found in literal pieces; likely ripped apart.

Andromeda's take on the Manta falls flat because other than a brief codex entry, and it being a slightly more animated background prop, we as players never interact with it. That's not an 'alien' so much as a piece of trivia about an arguably useless subject. Manta's have no real weight within the setting, they aren't a part of the Helius cluster so much as an random blurb attached to a floating gas bag. Speaking of which, it would be more apt to compare Andromeda's Manta, to the Milky Way's Gas Bags, or Shifty Looking Space Cows, for how much it impacted the overall setting. The Elcor, and Hanar on the other hand were apart of the setting.

As for the Jardaan and the Remnant, they are just like the Manta. All they are is words in a codex entry. BioWare telling us about them rather than actually showing this 'alien' nuance. I would compare them to the Protheans and Reapers in ME 1, but those were superior in that title. In addition to their own speculative lore segments players got to actually interact with them in the form of Sovereign and the Vigil VI. Granted, those scenes were brief, and in Vigil's case, were only revealed a fragment of what they were actually about, but they were still established as part of the setting from game one; allowed us players got to get a feel for their motivations and perceptions.

The Jardaan and Remnant only have the promise of what they might be, in possible DLC or sequels. Sure, it's easy to imagine them as being far more nuanced and in-depth than anything we've seen in the franchise so far, but that's just it. Predictions on how they might turn out, based on a few random codex entries should BioWare deign to give us an ME:A 2. Whereas the Rachni, Elcor, Hanar, Protheans, and Reapers were firmly established, though with room for extensive elaboration, in the base game of ME 1.

Same could be said of the Batarians. They initially had no role.

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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 3, 2018 22:30:58 GMT

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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 3, 2018 22:30:58 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 22:17:39 GMT griffith82 said:

Aug 3, 2018 19:59:42 GMT Vortex13 said:

True. Plus, they were one of more human-like aliens anyways. But still, yes they were expanded upon with an introductory DLC that featured them.

I would be willing to give the Jaadan and Remnant that same consideration if wasn't for BioWare's outright abandonment of ME:A or of their misguided priorities (IMO) when they were still supporting it. Instead of wasting time and effort on #makingJaalBi they could have done something to help alleviate the bland non-alien nature of the setting.

If that is were the focus of the team lay, what makes us think that they would magically start showcasing Chris L'Etoile levels of writing quality when it came to the non-human elements? If the vanilla base game is anything to go by, the purported Quarian Ark DLC would likely have only included a new Quarian temporary companion to bang, and maybe, just maybe, feature a brief appearance of a Hanar as a cheap continuation of the Blasto meme.

Last Edit: Aug 3, 2018 23:16:18 GMT by Vortex13

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us, but because they are incapable of good, honest human hatred.
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Human, your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 3, 2018 23:06:43 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 22:30:58 GMT Vortex13 said:

Aug 3, 2018 22:17:39 GMT griffith82 said:

True. Plus, they were one of more human-like aliens anyways. But still, yes they were expanded upon with an introductory DLC that featured them.

I would be willing to give the Jaadan and Remnant that same consideration if wasn't for BioWare's outright abandonment of ME:A or of their misguided priorities (IMO) when they were still supporting it. Instead of wasting time and effort on #makingJaalBi they could have done something to help alliterate the bland non-alien nature of the setting.

If that is were the focus of the team lay, what makes us think that they would magically start showcasing Chris L'Etoile levels of writing quality when it came to the non-human elements? If the vanilla base game is anything to go by, the purported Quarian Ark DLC would likely have only included a new Quarian temporary companion to bang, and maybe, just maybe, feature a brief appearance of a Hanar as a cheap continuation of the Blasto meme.

Doesn't mean we won't get that in the future.

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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 3, 2018 23:19:43 GMT

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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 3, 2018 23:19:43 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 23:06:43 GMT griffith82 said:

Aug 3, 2018 22:30:58 GMT Vortex13 said:

True. Plus, they were one of more human-like aliens anyways. But still, yes they were expanded upon with an introductory DLC that featured them.

I would be willing to give the Jaadan and Remnant that same consideration if wasn't for BioWare's outright abandonment of ME:A or of their misguided priorities (IMO) when they were still supporting it. Instead of wasting time and effort on #makingJaalBi they could have done something to help alliterate the bland non-alien nature of the setting.

If that is were the focus of the team lay, what makes us think that they would magically start showcasing Chris L'Etoile levels of writing quality when it came to the non-human elements? If the vanilla base game is anything to go by, the purported Quarian Ark DLC would likely have only included a new Quarian temporary companion to bang, and maybe, just maybe, feature a brief appearance of a Hanar as a cheap continuation of the Blasto meme.

Doesn't mean we won't get that in the future.

If BioWare continues to follow existing trends, I would ere on the side of that not being the case, at least anywhere near to the level of nuance in non-human elements as we saw in ME 1 and DA:O/A.

Compare the amount of otherwise 'alien' elements in the two original games to their latest releases. Trends are showing that we have been getting less of those aforementioned elements with each subsequent title, not more.

Last Edit: Aug 3, 2018 23:37:27 GMT by Vortex13

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us, but because they are incapable of good, honest human hatred.
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Human, your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.
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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 3, 2018 23:19:52 GMT Unicephalon 40-D likes this

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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 23:19:52 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 22:30:58 GMT Vortex13 said:

Aug 3, 2018 22:17:39 GMT griffith82 said:

True. Plus, they were one of more human-like aliens anyways. But still, yes they were expanded upon with an introductory DLC that featured them.

I would be willing to give the Jaadan and Remnant that same consideration if wasn't for BioWare's outright abandonment of ME:A or of their misguided priorities (IMO) when they were still supporting it. Instead of wasting time and effort on #makingJaalBi they could have done something to help alleviate the bland non-alien nature of the setting.

If that is were the focus of the team lay, what makes us think that they would magically start showcasing Chris L'Etoile levels of writing quality when it came to the non-human elements? If the vanilla base game is anything to go by, the purported Quarian Ark DLC would likely have only included a new Quarian temporary companion to bang, and maybe, just maybe, feature a brief appearance of a Hanar as a cheap continuation of the Blasto meme.

Okay let's be fair here. Honestly, what could they do to make the aliens more alien that would cost the amount of using lines that seemed to have already been recorded and editing a cutscene?

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Post by griffith82 on Aug 3, 2018 23:23:00 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 23:19:43 GMT Vortex13 said:

Aug 3, 2018 23:06:43 GMT griffith82 said:

Doesn't mean we won't get that in the future.

If BioWare continues to follow existing trends, I would ere on the side of that not being the case, at least anywhere near to the level of nuance in non-human elements as we saw in ME 1 and DA:O/A.

Compare the amount of otherwise 'alien' elements in the two original games to their latest releases. Trends are showing that we have been getting less of that aforementioned elements with each subsequent title, not more.

I don't agree.

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Post by Phantom on Aug 3, 2018 23:43:10 GMT

personally I would give both a chance.

I would love a sensible story that leads into the Post Reaper War Mass Effect game and see what happens. A part of me wants to see what is in Reaper Controlled Dark Space is like. It would be cool to have a team of anti heroes/villains to stop or block the Reaper's route to Andromeda in Dark Space.

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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 3, 2018 23:44:44 GMT

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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 3, 2018 23:44:44 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 23:19:52 GMT Hanako Ikezawa said:

Aug 3, 2018 22:30:58 GMT Vortex13 said:

True. Plus, they were one of more human-like aliens anyways. But still, yes they were expanded upon with an introductory DLC that featured them.

I would be willing to give the Jaadan and Remnant that same consideration if wasn't for BioWare's outright abandonment of ME:A or of their misguided priorities (IMO) when they were still supporting it. Instead of wasting time and effort on #makingJaalBi they could have done something to help alleviate the bland non-alien nature of the setting.

If that is were the focus of the team lay, what makes us think that they would magically start showcasing Chris L'Etoile levels of writing quality when it came to the non-human elements? If the vanilla base game is anything to go by, the purported Quarian Ark DLC would likely have only included a new Quarian temporary companion to bang, and maybe, just maybe, feature a brief appearance of a Hanar as a cheap continuation of the Blasto meme.

Okay let's be fair here. Honestly, what could they do to make the aliens more alien that would cost the amount of using lines that seemed to have already been recorded and editing a cutscene?

Anything else really.

They already went in and changed the dialogue with the transgender character. Focusing on Jaal like that only solidified the appearance that they cared more about trending social topics and appealing to a particular crowd then they did in having the nuanced science fiction setting that they started out with.

Last Edit: Aug 3, 2018 23:46:23 GMT by Vortex13

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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 3, 2018 23:51:23 GMT Unicephalon 40-D likes this

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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 23:51:23 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 23:44:44 GMT Vortex13 said:

Aug 3, 2018 23:19:52 GMT Hanako Ikezawa said:

Okay let's be fair here. Honestly, what could they do to make the aliens more alien that would cost the amount of using lines that seemed to have already been recorded and editing a cutscene?

Anything else really.

They already went in and changed the dialogue with the transgender character. Focusing on Jaal like that only solidified the appearance that they cared more about trending social topics and appealing to a particular crowd then they did in having the nuanced science fiction setting that they started out with.

By change it, you mean move it so it happens later in the game rather than near the beginning?

But please, give me an example of what they could do in a single cutscene and a dozen lines of dialogue that would have satisfied you.

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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2018 0:04:01 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 19:59:42 GMT Vortex13 said:

Aug 3, 2018 19:22:59 GMT @upagain said:

OK, let's do a direct comparison:

Entire codex entry for the Elcor in ME1: "The elcor are a Citadel species native to the high-gravity world Dekuuna. They are massive creatures, standing on four muscular legs for increased stability. Elcor move slowly, an evolved repsonse to an environment where a fall can be lethal. This has colored their psychology, making them deliberate and conservative. Elcor speech is ponderous and monotone. Among themselves, scent, slight movements, and subvocalized infrasound convey shades of meaning that make a human smile seem as subtle as a fireworks display. Since their subtlety can lead to misunderstandings with other species, the elcor often go out of their way to clarify when they are being sarcastic, amused, or angry. Dekunna's high gravity impedes mountain formation. Most of the world consists of flat, open plains, which prehistoric elcor wandered across in small family bands. Modern elcor still prefer open sky, and can become restless and uncomfortable on long starship journeys."

Entire codex entry for "Remnant: Creators" (i.e. the Jardaan), which is only one of 14 separate codex entries on the Remnant) - The Jardaan are a mysterious species or faction responsible for building the bots and technology known as the Remnant. According to recordings and findings from Khi Tasira, they were interested in not only wide-scale terraforming but the creation of sentient life. One of the succedssful creations, the angara, were seeded on multiple worlds in the Heleus Cluster. The Jardaan's motivations for this creation are still unknown. Their work was disrupted by gthe deplyment of the Scourge weapon, the result of either an external threat or a rift in Jardaan society. This weapon devastated the worlds that the Jardaan had cultivated and forced them to leave the Helus Cluster, though not before disengaging Meridan and sending it to safety. The present whereabouts and disposition of the Jardaan are not known. Whether they will return to Heleus remains to be seen."

Entire codex entry for "Andromeda Wildlife: Manta" (one of 2 codes entries on Heleus Flora and Fauna): Nicknamed a "manta" by Andromeda Initiative observers, the majestic creature has been sighted on several worlds in the Heleus Cluster. The Nexus scientists believe it may have originally evolved on a world with heavy deposits of element zero, giving it the ability to lower its mass enough to "swim" through the air. Expanding the muscular gas bladders on its underside allows the creature to rise and orient itself in flight. Despite its size - roughly 30m - the manta is not a threat to outposts or explorers. It appears to subsist on mineral deposits from rock formations, wrapping tiself around rock spires or even against cliff faces to remain camouflaged while it feeds. Their camouflage ability suggests that these mantas have predators or other reasons to remain hidden, but thus far the reasons remain unclear."

Now, IMHO, we know almost as much about the Manta (a species we don't get to talk to yet at all and really have no idea whether or not it is sentient yet). The codes entry on the Jardaan is even far more detailed than the Elcor one... and the Jardaan are also a species we have yet to actually converse with, and the game is hinting very strongly that that species would have become a focus in a future instalment.

In addition, the entire second paragraph/sentence in the Elcor codex entry boils down to "They talk funny." So, I'm just not seeing all this extra detail you're claiming exists in the ME1 codex; and I personally think the writing in the ME:A codex is just as good as the ME1 one, if not better. The ME1 Elcor codex entry basically just repeats everything that Calyn can say in that single conversation you get with him.

Yes, their supplied lore is only as long as that of the Manta. The key difference is that on top of the codex entry for races like the Elcor, we also go to interact with them, to see those points mentioned in said codex entry apply to a real time interaction with them. We are given both the show & tell presentation. Collectively, our interactions with the Elcor, was minor (especially what little of it there is that doesn't see them as a butt of jokes that ME 2&3 turned them into) but it did work to create an impression of a distinctly alien species.

When talking to the Elcor ambassador, for instance, my take away was less about how it 'talked funny' and more about how this being was going out of it's way to clarify what it was saying, for Shepard's benefit; and that unlike the human and volus ambassadors, it wasn't whining about perceived injustices either. Even the seemingly unrelated footnotes about the nature of the Elcor home world served to distinguish the alien species from just being a human in a suit. Evolving under gravity five times more intense than any of the other known species meant that they were arguably the physically strongest aliens in the galaxy. This fact, coupled with their slow and deliberate nature, even when not in danger of Deunka's gravity well, gave the impression of a species of gentle giants, who had to be that slow and deliberate out of concern for what they could do to the more flimsy and impetuous races around them. Even Garus makes mention of this underlying strength when he recalls his tracking down of an Elcor serial killer on the Citadel, at how it's victims were found in literal pieces; likely ripped apart.

Andromeda's take on the Manta falls flat because other than a brief codex entry, and it being a slightly more animated background prop, we as players never interact with it. That's not an 'alien' so much as a piece of trivia about an arguably useless subject. Manta's have no real weight within the setting, they aren't a part of the Helius cluster so much as an random blurb attached to a floating gas bag. Speaking of which, it would be more apt to compare Andromeda's Manta, to the Milky Way's Gas Bags, or Shifty Looking Space Cows, for how much it impacted the overall setting. The Elcor, and Hanar on the other hand were apart of the setting.

As for the Jardaan and the Remnant, they are just like the Manta. All they are is words in a codex entry. BioWare telling us about them rather than actually showing this 'alien' nuance. I would compare them to the Protheans and Reapers in ME 1, but those were superior in that title. In addition to their own speculative lore segments players got to actually interact with them in the form of Sovereign and the Vigil VI. Granted, those scenes were brief, and in Vigil's case, were only revealed a fragment of what they were actually about, but they were still established as part of the setting from game one; allowed us players got to get a feel for their motivations and perceptions.

The Jardaan and Remnant only have the promise of what they might be, in possible DLC or sequels. Sure, it's easy to imagine them as being far more nuanced and in-depth than anything we've seen in the franchise so far, but that's just it. Predictions on how they might turn out, based on a few random codex entries should BioWare deign to give us an ME:A 2. Whereas the Rachni, Elcor, Hanar, Protheans, and Reapers were firmly established, though with room for extensive elaboration, in the base game of ME 1.

I find your argument very circular in nature and, as a result, I find it unconvincing. First you say that we can only really discern that the Elcor talk funny from the conversation and that it's the codex that fills in all this supposed detail. Then, when confronted with the reality of how brief the codex is, you flip to say that it's the conversation that fleshes out the codex. The reality is that both the codex and the converstion give us almost exactly the same information and the same amount of information. Neither one really adds anything to our knowledge of the Elcor. We finish ME1 knowing very little about them and, really, don't find out a whole lot more about them in ME2 or ME3. They serve as rather generic vendors with the rather generic vendor talk that goes with that role.

You're certainly entitled to blow smoke up Chris L'Etoile's ego all day long, but I see very little discernible writing quality difference between the codex entries from either game. At any rate, the entries are quoted side by side so people can make up their own minds. As was pointed out, the Batarians had no role in ME1 yet became a favorite alien species of the fans in ME2. As I mentioned, we have no idea yet how sentient the manta species is and what role they might play in a sequel. We can certainly guess that Bioware had/have a larger role planned for the Jardaan in a sequel.

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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 4, 2018 0:46:52 GMT

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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 4, 2018 0:46:52 GMT

Aug 4, 2018 0:04:01 GMT @upagain said:

Aug 3, 2018 19:59:42 GMT Vortex13 said:

Yes, their supplied lore is only as long as that of the Manta. The key difference is that on top of the codex entry for races like the Elcor, we also go to interact with them, to see those points mentioned in said codex entry apply to a real time interaction with them. We are given both the show & tell presentation. Collectively, our interactions with the Elcor, was minor (especially what little of it there is that doesn't see them as a butt of jokes that ME 2&3 turned them into) but it did work to create an impression of a distinctly alien species.

When talking to the Elcor ambassador, for instance, my take away was less about how it 'talked funny' and more about how this being was going out of it's way to clarify what it was saying, for Shepard's benefit; and that unlike the human and volus ambassadors, it wasn't whining about perceived injustices either. Even the seemingly unrelated footnotes about the nature of the Elcor home world served to distinguish the alien species from just being a human in a suit. Evolving under gravity five times more intense than any of the other known species meant that they were arguably the physically strongest aliens in the galaxy. This fact, coupled with their slow and deliberate nature, even when not in danger of Deunka's gravity well, gave the impression of a species of gentle giants, who had to be that slow and deliberate out of concern for what they could do to the more flimsy and impetuous races around them. Even Garus makes mention of this underlying strength when he recalls his tracking down of an Elcor serial killer on the Citadel, at how it's victims were found in literal pieces; likely ripped apart.

Andromeda's take on the Manta falls flat because other than a brief codex entry, and it being a slightly more animated background prop, we as players never interact with it. That's not an 'alien' so much as a piece of trivia about an arguably useless subject. Manta's have no real weight within the setting, they aren't a part of the Helius cluster so much as an random blurb attached to a floating gas bag. Speaking of which, it would be more apt to compare Andromeda's Manta, to the Milky Way's Gas Bags, or Shifty Looking Space Cows, for how much it impacted the overall setting. The Elcor, and Hanar on the other hand were apart of the setting.

As for the Jardaan and the Remnant, they are just like the Manta. All they are is words in a codex entry. BioWare telling us about them rather than actually showing this 'alien' nuance. I would compare them to the Protheans and Reapers in ME 1, but those were superior in that title. In addition to their own speculative lore segments players got to actually interact with them in the form of Sovereign and the Vigil VI. Granted, those scenes were brief, and in Vigil's case, were only revealed a fragment of what they were actually about, but they were still established as part of the setting from game one; allowed us players got to get a feel for their motivations and perceptions.

The Jardaan and Remnant only have the promise of what they might be, in possible DLC or sequels. Sure, it's easy to imagine them as being far more nuanced and in-depth than anything we've seen in the franchise so far, but that's just it. Predictions on how they might turn out, based on a few random codex entries should BioWare deign to give us an ME:A 2. Whereas the Rachni, Elcor, Hanar, Protheans, and Reapers were firmly established, though with room for extensive elaboration, in the base game of ME 1.

I find your argument very circular in nature and, as a result, I find it unconvincing. First you say that we can only really discern that the Elcor talk funny from the conversation and that it's the codex that fills in all this supposed detail. Then, when confronted with the reality of how brief the codex is, you flip to say that it's the conversation that fleshes out the codex. The reality is that both the codex and the converstion give us almost exactly the same information and the same amount of information. Neither one really adds anything to our knowledge of the Elcor. We finish ME1 knowing very little about them and, really, don't find out a whole lot more about them in ME2 or ME3. They serve as rather generic vendors with the rather generic vendor talk that goes with that role.

You're certainly entitled to blow smoke up Chris L'Etoile's ego all day long, but I see very little discernible writing quality difference between the codex entries from either game. At any rate, the entries are quoted side by side so people can make up their own minds. As was pointed out, the Batarians had no role in ME1 yet became a favorite alien species of the fans in ME2. As I mentioned, we have no idea yet how sentient the manta species is and what role they might play in a sequel. We can certainly guess that Bioware had/have a larger role planned for the Jardaan in a sequel.

Not circular so much as a two part approach. The codex and actual interaction work hand in hand to make aliens like the Elcor feel distinct. We get a blurb about what they are like and then we get to experience first hand how they are depicted as. The fact that we never got to see the Elcor more often is more a fault of the subsequent suppressing of alien elements in favor of "daddy issues" and social soap-boxing then a failure of the alien's uniqueness (IMO). Instead of seeing aliens like the Elcor and Hanar in a more varied light, we instead get constant Blasto and "Badassfully" memes. Really sounds like a nuanced and mature approach to 'alien' elements there BioWare. <_<

On the other hand, the Jardaan and Remnant; that you say is far superior to anything the Elcor ever showed us; only has the codex entries to go off of, that and the vague assumption that in the future they will be fleshed out to adequate levels. So I have to take it on faith that an alien race, that so far only exists in codex entries as speculation, is somehow going to be miles ahead of aliens that we actually got to see and interact with in ME 1 in some hypothetical sequel? All the current evidence points to that not being the case. Otherwise, why didn't we get more non-human elements in the vanilla game of ME:A if BioWare is still capable of depicting said concepts?

As for Chris L'Etoile, I would be more than willing to acknowledge another writer who is capable of writing compelling aliens if you point them out. What subsequent writer has BioWare employed who has written things on par with the Elcor, Hanar, Rachni, Geth & Legion (ME 2 version) Thorian, etc? As someone who has purchased every single Mass Effect title since ME 1, I have yet to see anyone who comes close.

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us, but because they are incapable of good, honest human hatred.
-Inquisitor Agmar

Human, your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.
- Harbinger

Vortex13
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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 4, 2018 0:56:08 GMT

Quote

Post by Vortex13 on Aug 4, 2018 0:56:08 GMT

Aug 3, 2018 23:51:23 GMT Hanako Ikezawa said:

Aug 3, 2018 23:44:44 GMT Vortex13 said:

Anything else really.

They already went in and changed the dialogue with the transgender character. Focusing on Jaal like that only solidified the appearance that they cared more about trending social topics and appealing to a particular crowd then they did in having the nuanced science fiction setting that they started out with.

By change it, you mean move it so it happens later in the game rather than near the beginning?

But please, give me an example of what they could do in a single cutscene and a dozen lines of dialogue that would have satisfied you.

Considering the amount of unpolished animations, textures and multiplayer connectivity issues present at the time of release (for instance) the fact that BioWare would devote such time and effort to 'fixing' Jaal and the random transgender NPC really didn't present them as the same company that originally gave us Mass Effect.

Obviously, they couldn't add in anything that would have brought an appreciable amount of the 'other' into the game during that window; it was far too human focused for that. But choosing that time to address those points, which have been arguably taking the place of those same alien elements over the course of the franchise, really didn't leave me with any confident expectations that they would in the future.

Last Edit: Aug 4, 2018 0:59:57 GMT by Vortex13

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us, but because they are incapable of good, honest human hatred.
-Inquisitor Agmar

Human, your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.
- Harbinger

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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 4, 2018 0:59:50 GMT Unicephalon 40-D likes this

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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 4, 2018 0:59:50 GMT

Aug 4, 2018 0:56:08 GMT Vortex13 said:

Aug 3, 2018 23:51:23 GMT Hanako Ikezawa said:

By change it, you mean move it so it happens later in the game rather than near the beginning?

But please, give me an example of what they could do in a single cutscene and a dozen lines of dialogue that would have satisfied you.

Considering the amount of unpolished animations, textures and multiplayer connectivity issues present at the time of release (for instance) the fact that BioWare would devote such time and effort to 'fixing' Jaal and the random transgender NPC really didn't present them as the same company that originally gave us Mass Effect.

Obviously, they couldn't add in anything that would have brought an appreciable amount of the 'other' into the game during that window; it was far too human focused for that. But choosing that time to address those points, which have been arguably take the place of those same alien elements over the course of the franchise really didn't leave me with any confident expectations that they would in the future.

So you admit that they couldn't have done anything to satisfy your demands with that amount. Okay, then don't use that as a scapegoat for you not getting what you wanted since that wouldn't have mattered one way or the other.

Vortex13
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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 4, 2018 1:07:01 GMT

Quote

Post by Vortex13 on Aug 4, 2018 1:07:01 GMT

Aug 4, 2018 0:59:50 GMT Hanako Ikezawa said:

Aug 4, 2018 0:56:08 GMT Vortex13 said:

Considering the amount of unpolished animations, textures and multiplayer connectivity issues present at the time of release (for instance) the fact that BioWare would devote such time and effort to 'fixing' Jaal and the random transgender NPC really didn't present them as the same company that originally gave us Mass Effect.

Obviously, they couldn't add in anything that would have brought an appreciable amount of the 'other' into the game during that window; it was far too human focused for that. But choosing that time to address those points, which have been arguably take the place of those same alien elements over the course of the franchise really didn't leave me with any confident expectations that they would in the future.

So you admit that they couldn't have done anything to satisfy your demands with that amount. Okay, then don't use that as a scapegoat for you not getting what you wanted since that wouldn't have mattered one way or the other.

I could have done with improved multiplayer connectivity issues, or heck, at least a reinstatement of the weekly balance changes that MEMP had during it's year run. But no, #makeJaalBi was obviously far more important than improving their micro-transaction platform.

Indeed, they opted to forego pre-release promises about supporting the multiplayer component longer than ME3's MP, eventually abandoning ME:A altogether. But at least bisexuality and transgenderism was showcased properly.

Last Edit: Aug 4, 2018 1:07:52 GMT by Vortex13

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us, but because they are incapable of good, honest human hatred.
-Inquisitor Agmar

Human, your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.
- Harbinger

Hanako Ikezawa
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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 4, 2018 1:08:58 GMT Unicephalon 40-D likes this

Quote

Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 4, 2018 1:08:58 GMT

Aug 4, 2018 1:07:01 GMT Vortex13 said:

Aug 4, 2018 0:59:50 GMT Hanako Ikezawa said:

So you admit that they couldn't have done anything to satisfy your demands with that amount. Okay, then don't use that as a scapegoat for you not getting what you wanted since that wouldn't have mattered one way or the other.

I could have done with improved multiplayer connectivity issues, or heck, at least a reinstatement of the weekly balance changes that MEMP had during it's year run. But no, #makeJaalBi was obviously far more important than improving their micro-transaction platform.

Indeed, they opted to forego pre-release promises about supporting the multiplayer component longer than ME3's MP, eventually abandoning ME:A altogether. But at least bisexuality and transgenderism was showcased properly.

Your bigotry is starting to show.
Also aren't they still doing things for the MP?

Last Edit: Aug 4, 2018 1:10:00 GMT by Hanako Ikezawa

Vortex13
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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 4, 2018 1:15:37 GMT

Quote

Post by Vortex13 on Aug 4, 2018 1:15:37 GMT

Aug 4, 2018 1:08:58 GMT Hanako Ikezawa said:

Aug 4, 2018 1:07:01 GMT Vortex13 said:

I could have done with improved multiplayer connectivity issues, or heck, at least a reinstatement of the weekly balance changes that MEMP had during it's year run. But no, #makeJaalBi was obviously far more important than improving their micro-transaction platform.

Indeed, they opted to forego pre-release promises about supporting the multiplayer component longer than ME3's MP, eventually abandoning ME:A altogether. But at least bisexuality and transgenderism was showcased properly.

Your bigotry is starting to show.
Also aren't they still doing things for the MP?

So I'm bigoted for not liking BioWare's pursuit of trending social topics to exclusion of what initially drew me into the franchise in the first place?

Sorry, but I happen to find things like the Rachni to be far more compelling than humans; straight, gay, bi or otherwise. Humans, and all the social justice topics associated with us, are boring (IMO).

And no, they are no longer supporting the multiplayer. No new content, or special events.

Last Edit: Aug 4, 2018 1:16:03 GMT by Vortex13

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us, but because they are incapable of good, honest human hatred.
-Inquisitor Agmar

Human, your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.
- Harbinger

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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 4, 2018 1:40:12 GMT

Quote

Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2018 1:40:12 GMT

Aug 4, 2018 0:46:52 GMT Vortex13 said:

Aug 4, 2018 0:04:01 GMT @upagain said:

I find your argument very circular in nature and, as a result, I find it unconvincing. First you say that we can only really discern that the Elcor talk funny from the conversation and that it's the codex that fills in all this supposed detail. Then, when confronted with the reality of how brief the codex is, you flip to say that it's the conversation that fleshes out the codex. The reality is that both the codex and the converstion give us almost exactly the same information and the same amount of information. Neither one really adds anything to our knowledge of the Elcor. We finish ME1 knowing very little about them and, really, don't find out a whole lot more about them in ME2 or ME3. They serve as rather generic vendors with the rather generic vendor talk that goes with that role.

You're certainly entitled to blow smoke up Chris L'Etoile's ego all day long, but I see very little discernible writing quality difference between the codex entries from either game. At any rate, the entries are quoted side by side so people can make up their own minds. As was pointed out, the Batarians had no role in ME1 yet became a favorite alien species of the fans in ME2. As I mentioned, we have no idea yet how sentient the manta species is and what role they might play in a sequel. We can certainly guess that Bioware had/have a larger role planned for the Jardaan in a sequel.

Not circular so much as a two part approach. The codex and actual interaction work hand in hand to make aliens like the Elcor feel distinct. We get a blurb about what they are like and then we get to experience first hand how they are depicted as. The fact that we never got to see the Elcor more often is more a fault of the subsequent suppressing of alien elements in favor of "daddy issues" and social soap-boxing then a failure of the alien's uniqueness (IMO). Instead of seeing aliens like the Elcor and Hanar in a more varied light, we instead get constant Blasto and "Badassfully" memes. Really sounds like a nuanced and mature approach to 'alien' elements there BioWare. <_<

On the other hand, the Jardaan and Remnant; that you say is far superior to anything the Elcor ever showed us; only has the codex entries to go off of, that and the vague assumption that in the future they will be fleshed out to adequate levels. So I have to take it on faith that an alien race, that so far only exists in codex entries as speculation, is somehow going to be miles ahead of aliens that we actually got to see and interact with in ME 1 in some hypothetical sequel? All the current evidence points to that not being the case. Otherwise, why didn't we get more non-human elements in the vanilla game of ME:A if BioWare is still capable of depicting said concepts?

As for Chris L'Etoile, I would be more than willing to acknowledge another writer who is capable of writing compelling aliens if you point them out. What subsequent writer has BioWare employed who has written things on par with the Elcor, Hanar, Rachni, Geth & Legion (ME 2 version) Thorian, etc? As someone who has purchased every single Mass Effect title since ME 1, I have yet to see anyone who comes close.

When did I say that the Jardaan and Remnant were "far superior" to the Elcor? I said they seemed alien to me. Do you even know the definition of "alien?" The Elcor personality we were shown was very human. What was so "not human" about Ambassador Calyn's language. Seriously, we humans use such exclamatory expressions at the beginning of sentences all the time. The political culture of each species in ME1 is patterned off human historical groups. Turians are essentially Roman, Asari are Greek, Quarians are akin to the nomadic Arabs. I know of no human group in history that was bent on creating entire new species and environments for them to live in from scratch nor am I aware of anything here on earth that flies by changing its own mass. What you find "compelling" is a matter of opinion. I find the manta very compelling and I want to learn more about them in the next game. I also find the Jardaan compelling. The Elcor, quite frankly, bore me to tears. The Geth had zero personality in ME1... They were cannon fodder. It wasn't until Legion became "more human" with the L'Etoile objecting to it at every step, that the geth became at all interesting to me.

Last Edit: Aug 4, 2018 1:45:57 GMT by Deleted

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Do you prefer ANDROMEDA? or Milkyway? Aug 4, 2018 2:12:17 GMT

Quote

Post by Vortex13 on Aug 4, 2018 2:12:17 GMT

Aug 4, 2018 1:40:12 GMT @upagain said:

Aug 4, 2018 0:46:52 GMT Vortex13 said:

Not circular so much as a two part approach. The codex and actual interaction work hand in hand to make aliens like the Elcor feel distinct. We get a blurb about what they are like and then we get to experience first hand how they are depicted as. The fact that we never got to see the Elcor more often is more a fault of the subsequent suppressing of alien elements in favor of "daddy issues" and social soap-boxing then a failure of the alien's uniqueness (IMO). Instead of seeing aliens like the Elcor and Hanar in a more varied light, we instead get constant Blasto and "Badassfully" memes. Really sounds like a nuanced and mature approach to 'alien' elements there BioWare. <_<

On the other hand, the Jardaan and Remnant; that you say is far superior to anything the Elcor ever showed us; only has the codex entries to go off of, that and the vague assumption that in the future they will be fleshed out to adequate levels. So I have to take it on faith that an alien race, that so far only exists in codex entries as speculation, is somehow going to be miles ahead of aliens that we actually got to see and interact with in ME 1 in some hypothetical sequel? All the current evidence points to that not being the case. Otherwise, why didn't we get more non-human elements in the vanilla game of ME:A if BioWare is still capable of depicting said concepts?

As for Chris L'Etoile, I would be more than willing to acknowledge another writer who is capable of writing compelling aliens if you point them out. What subsequent writer has BioWare employed who has written things on par with the Elcor, Hanar, Rachni, Geth & Legion (ME 2 version) Thorian, etc? As someone who has purchased every single Mass Effect title since ME 1, I have yet to see anyone who comes close.

When did I say that the Jardaan and Remnant were "far superior" to the Elcor? I said they seemed alien to me. Do you even know the definition of "alien?" The Elcor personality we were shown was very human. What was so "not human" about Ambassador Calyn's language. Seriously, we humans use such exclamatory expressions at the beginning of sentences all the time. The political culture of each species in ME1 is patterned off human historical groups. Turians are essentially Roman, Asari are Greek, Quarians are akin to the nomadic Arabs. I know of no human group in history that was bent on creating entire new species and environments for them to live in from scratch nor am I aware of anything here on earth that flies by changing its own mass. What you find "compelling" is a matter of opinion. I find the manta very compelling and I want to learn more about them in the next game. I also find the Jardaan compelling. The Elcor, quite frankly, bore me to tears. The Geth had zero personality in ME1... They were cannon fodder. It wasn't until Legion became "more human" with the L'Etoile objecting to it at every step, that the geth became at all interesting to me.

And I am saying that what are you basing this 'alien' elements on aside from a few codex entries? Does Ryder get to talk to a Jardaan, and encounter the one of the truly alien species in Andromeda?

If EA were to shutdown BioWare tomorrow, and then shelve the Mass Effect franchise for good, what does the Jardaan have that would make them better than the other aliens that we've actually encountered?

That's the gist of my argument. Based on what we currently have, the Jardaan, Remnant, Khett, and Angaran have to be the least alien out of everything we've seen so far.

The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us, but because they are incapable of good, honest human hatred.
-Inquisitor Agmar

Human, your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater.
- Harbinger

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