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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2018 15:17:52 GMT
It still doesn't matter. It's been done... “The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.” The fans who prefer other endings than destroy exist. Likewise, ME:A exists and there are fans who like it. All the denial in the world changes none of that. If they keep all the endings valid and they keep ME:A valid by simply pushing the timeline ahead in the Milky Way by 600 years or more, they are not actually cancelling out anyone's decisions. The ones insisting on a canon ending gain nothing by such a declaration anyways since they would still get to "explore" the rest of the Milky Way galaxy... just less than a krogan lifetime later. I don't know what in the blazes are you talking about. I only said that Mass Effect 3 should have been planned with a start and an ending, not start and three colors endings, i'm not talking about of destroy should have been the only ending or my mom should have been the only ending, i'm talking about that they should have thinked the game with an ending on their mind, not let's make the game and offer three endings to make people feel that their decisions mattered. Even more, I dare say those three endings are a last minute asspulls, and it doesn't matter who prefers what, the thing is, the endings were openly disliked, and not a good idea. It still happened though... nothing changes that. They were openly disliked, but NOT universally disliked. What's done is done. Why not choose an option now that preserves everything that has already been written (preserves all endings, preserves ME:A), especially when there is really nothing to be gained by canonizes an ending and erasing ME:A anyways? I agree that any new story going forward should have a single ending; but ME:A had a single ending with minor differences... and people still complained specifically about that. I think Bioware is in a situation where they are going to get it in the next from their regardless of what they do with this franchise. In light of that, perhaps their best move for their own sanity is to drop the franchise entirely. I can't imagine any writer with other opportunities available to them would choose to enter into this rats nest of criticism.
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Post by warden on Apr 22, 2018 15:52:15 GMT
I don't know what in the blazes are you talking about. I only said that Mass Effect 3 should have been planned with a start and an ending, not start and three colors endings, i'm not talking about of destroy should have been the only ending or my mom should have been the only ending, i'm talking about that they should have thinked the game with an ending on their mind, not let's make the game and offer three endings to make people feel that their decisions mattered. Even more, I dare say those three endings are a last minute asspulls, and it doesn't matter who prefers what, the thing is, the endings were openly disliked, and not a good idea. It still happened though... nothing changes that. They were openly disliked, but NOT universally disliked. What's done is done. Why not choose an option now that preserves everything that has already been written (preserves all endings, preserves ME:A), especially when there is really nothing to be gained by canonizes an ending and erasing ME:A anyways? I agree that any new story going forward should have a single ending; but ME:A had a single ending with minor differences... and people still complained specifically about that. I think Bioware is in a situation where they are going to get it in the next from their regardless of what they do with this franchise. In light of that, perhaps their best move for their own sanity is to drop the franchise entirely. I can't imagine any writer with other opportunities available to them would choose to enter into this rats nest of criticism. Yeah I know, nothing can be done, it was badly planned so it was badly ended and can't be changed. Hey I've never entered in the discussion of which options are best now, I just popped up to say that the three color endings instead of a well planned single ending with minor differences in ME3 was a bad idea, that's all, the rest doesn't interest me in the slightest. As for Andromeda, well, this game has complaints from A to Z so there is nothing much to do so I guess it's not the best example. And yeah, I guess it's sad but I also don't see anything to salvage this series, whatever BioWare will do, fans of any kind from old generations to new ones will complaint, so at this point it's better to leave it in the limbo and do something new.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 22, 2018 15:53:48 GMT
regardless, the genius that thought that having different endings was a good idea, should not touch a pen ever again. We shouldn't declare that without knowing what the internal assumptions were before writing ME3. If Bio's intention was to simply abandon the MEU after ME3 in favor of doing a new IP, then there's nothing theoretically wrong with the design. (The problem is not getting buy-in from EA on abandoning the IP, but that's above the writers' pay grade.) Note that the stuff before the endings is wildly divergent too. I don't think Bio ever had any intention of carrying any of the ME3 choices over into future games.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 22, 2018 15:58:16 GMT
You say that like it would be a bad thing. It's a bad thing. Who knows what Not-Quite-Shepard might get up to? Imagine a Renegade Shepard running the Reapers? I can see that Shepard doing the sorts of things TIM might do. Human dominance indeed. Sounds like an interesting setting to me.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 22, 2018 16:04:03 GMT
It's a bad thing. Who knows what Not-Quite-Shepard might get up to? Imagine a Renegade Shepard running the Reapers? I can see that Shepard doing the sorts of things TIM might do. Human dominance indeed. Sounds like an interesting setting to me. Sounds like a dystopian future. I don't think I care for it in my Mass Effect.
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Post by warden on Apr 22, 2018 16:18:56 GMT
regardless, the genius that thought that having different endings was a good idea, should not touch a pen ever again. We shouldn't declare that without knowing what the internal assumptions were before writing ME3. If Bio's intention was to simply abandon the MEU after ME3 in favor of doing a new IP, then there's nothing theoretically wrong with the design. (The problem is not getting buy-in from EA on abandoning the IP, but that's above the writers' pay grade.) Note that the stuff before the endings is wildly divergent too. I don't think Bio ever had any intention of carrying any of the ME3 choices over into future games. I don't really thing I need your permission to say something, though if that is the case and I missed something, feel free to link it.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 22, 2018 16:58:38 GMT
I'm just pointing out that what you're saying doesn't make sense. You're saying that someone shouldn't be allowed to write games because he did the job he was supposed to do.
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Post by warden on Apr 22, 2018 17:05:02 GMT
I'm just pointing out that what you're saying doesn't make sense. You're saying that someone shouldn't be allowed to write games because he did the job he was supposed to do. I just said that the three color endings was a bad idea, if you don't like it feel free to do it. What doesn't make sense here is your demagogy and fallacies in any case.
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Post by Element Zero on Apr 22, 2018 17:34:09 GMT
Like I said, I'd roll with whichever ending they chose. I just think Destroy is the cleanest. "We defeated the Reapers. They're gone. The end." That's definitive and clean. There's no in-setting question of if and when they'll ever again become a threat. That's why I say it's cleaner; not due to some bias. I have no emotional attachment to any particular ending. I don't have one Shepard I place above the others as "canon". They're all simply possibilities. Again, I disagree. Control is factually the cleanest... involving the least change. Reapers still exist under the control of something/someone. They just go back to dark space (after helping to repair the damage) without completing that harvest. I'm not saying which ending I like the best... I'm saying it's a matter of fact that it is control that changes things the least. The state of the galaxy remains essentially the same as it was at the start of ME1. With destroy and synthesis there are more changes. I accept you like destroy's changes the best. Not everyone agrees with you on that... so a canon ending arbitrarily tells the other side F-You. I don't think that's necessary and I would prefer they didn't do that. ETA: There are other issues with putting the timeline close to the end of ME3 that persist despite what ending choice Bioware might declare canon. Some players wiped out the Quarians, others wiped out the geth instead; others secured a peace. So, does your envisioned galaxy contain quarians? To say yes, tells everyone who sided with the geth F-You. Genophage cured or not cured? Which side of that issues gets told F-You? What about the rachni? Did they wind up becoming allies or enemies or was the queen/breeder wiped out? You're not just asking them to declare one ending canon, you're asking them to lock in one of side of every single possible major decision the players could have possibly made in that final game. For what? The privelege of exploring the same galaxy you could still explore without declaring any choice canon, it would just be 600 or so years later. Good points regarding the need for some sort of timeline advancement if we try to continue the plot. My beloved near-future setting has been irrevocably changed, barring a drastic “reboot”. In regard to Control, I don’t think it’s nearly as clean as you do. If the Reapers just retreat into Dark Space after killing billions/trillions, how long should pass before the galaxy just relaxes? This is the type of event and threat that forever changes a civilization. The Protheans tried in several ways to get just such a reprieve. Their goal wasn’t to resume life as normal; it was to rebuild a more prepared society that could defeat the Reapers. How could any society just resume normal life with the Reapers gone but lurking? They’d learned and experienced too much. The threat of a future harvest would remain a permanent specter. Forever resolving that situation by removing the Reapers via Destroy is far cleaner in my opinion. I wouldn’t care which they picked. I just wish they had picked one so that the story could proceed with some sort of continuity. I don’t get the view that choices in a saves file are somehow sacred. I know many of you feel that way, but I think it’s a silly handicap placed upon future writers. It greatly limits future possibilities, because groups A through Z feel that their decade-old choices are super important. I think you’re starting to stray from simply sharing our respective opinions and feelings about the series toward pedantically arguing. That being the case, I’ll see myself out while we’re still on good footing. I’m not sure I have much new to add at the moment, anyway. It’s mostly just wistful “what might’ve beens”.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 22, 2018 17:54:41 GMT
It's a bad thing. Who knows what Not-Quite-Shepard might get up to? Imagine a Renegade Shepard running the Reapers? I can see that Shepard doing the sorts of things TIM might do. Human dominance indeed. I like it. If my Shepard were to choose the blue, never, it would help rebuild Earth and all human colonies. Once humanity sits atop the galaxy, excellent, it would have the reapers fly into the sun, leaving it's good friend Harbinger, ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL, and it some where on Earth to watch football on Saturday's and Sunday's.
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Post by ahglock on Apr 22, 2018 18:25:50 GMT
Again, I disagree. Control is factually the cleanest... involving the least change. Reapers still exist under the control of something/someone. They just go back to dark space (after helping to repair the damage) without completing that harvest. I'm not saying which ending I like the best... I'm saying it's a matter of fact that it is control that changes things the least. The state of the galaxy remains essentially the same as it was at the start of ME1. With destroy and synthesis there are more changes. I accept you like destroy's changes the best. Not everyone agrees with you on that... so a canon ending arbitrarily tells the other side F-You. I don't think that's necessary and I would prefer they didn't do that. ETA: There are other issues with putting the timeline close to the end of ME3 that persist despite what ending choice Bioware might declare canon. Some players wiped out the Quarians, others wiped out the geth instead; others secured a peace. So, does your envisioned galaxy contain quarians? To say yes, tells everyone who sided with the geth F-You. Genophage cured or not cured? Which side of that issues gets told F-You? What about the rachni? Did they wind up becoming allies or enemies or was the queen/breeder wiped out? You're not just asking them to declare one ending canon, you're asking them to lock in one of side of every single possible major decision the players could have possibly made in that final game. For what? The privelege of exploring the same galaxy you could still explore without declaring any choice canon, it would just be 600 or so years later. Good points regarding the need for some sort of timeline advancement if we try to continue the plot. My beloved near-future setting has been irrevocably changed, barring a drastic “reboot”. In regard to Control, I don’t think it’s nearly as clean as you do. If the Reapers just retreat into Dark Space after killing billions/trillions, how long should pass before the galaxy just relaxes? This is the type of event and threat that forever changes a civilization. The Protheans tried in several ways to get just such a reprieve. Their goal wasn’t to resume life as normal; it was to rebuild a more prepared society that could defeat the Reapers. How could any society just resume normal life with the Reapers gone but lurking? They’d learned and experienced too much. The threat of a future harvest would remain a permanent specter. Forever resolving that situation by removing the Reapers via Destroy is far cleaner in my opinion. I wouldn’t care which they picked. I just wish they had picked one so that the story could proceed with some sort of continuity. I don’t get the view that choices in a saves file are somehow sacred. I know many of you feel that way, but I think it’s a silly handicap placed upon future writers. It greatly limits future possibilities, because groups A through Z feel that their decade-old choices are super important. I think you’re starting to stray from simply sharing our respective opinions and feelings about the series toward pedantically arguing. That being the case, I’ll see myself out while we’re still on good footing. I’m not sure I have much new to add at the moment, anyway. It’s mostly just wistful “what might’ve beens”. You two need to define clean. Basically it looks like you are talking about two different things. To me it looks like one person is talking about less impact to the current setting, the other is talking about less dangling stories.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 22, 2018 18:36:03 GMT
I'm just pointing out that what you're saying doesn't make sense. You're saying that someone shouldn't be allowed to write games because he did the job he was supposed to do. I just said that the three color endings was a bad idea, if you don't like it feel free to do it. What doesn't make sense here is your demagogy and fallacies in any case. What you actually said was: There's nothing wrong with implementing divergent endings if you don't plan to actually live with them, either through canonization or just dropping the setting outright. The bad idea would be changing your mind about that, but there's no evidence that the writers of ME3 -- again, this isn't an ending problem in particular -- and the people who decided that we needed more ME and yet they couldn't canonize something are the same people. You sure "demagogy" is the right word there? Looks like there are only about six people even reading this thread, and I'm certainly not trying to appeal to their prejudices and emotions. Hell, I'm pushing canonization, which seems to be an unpopular position with this crowd. I wouldn't be pushing that if I was playing to them.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 22, 2018 18:44:40 GMT
Again, I disagree. Control is factually the cleanest... involving the least change. Reapers still exist under the control of something/someone. They just go back to dark space (after helping to repair the damage) without completing that harvest. I'm not saying which ending I like the best... I'm saying it's a matter of fact that it is control that changes things the least. The state of the galaxy remains essentially the same as it was at the start of ME1. With destroy and synthesis there are more changes. I accept you like destroy's changes the best. Not everyone agrees with you on that... so a canon ending arbitrarily tells the other side F-You. I don't think that's necessary and I would prefer they didn't do that. ETA: There are other issues with putting the timeline close to the end of ME3 that persist despite what ending choice Bioware might declare canon. Some players wiped out the Quarians, others wiped out the geth instead; others secured a peace. So, does your envisioned galaxy contain quarians? To say yes, tells everyone who sided with the geth F-You. Genophage cured or not cured? Which side of that issues gets told F-You? What about the rachni? Did they wind up becoming allies or enemies or was the queen/breeder wiped out? You're not just asking them to declare one ending canon, you're asking them to lock in one of side of every single possible major decision the players could have possibly made in that final game. For what? The privelege of exploring the same galaxy you could still explore without declaring any choice canon, it would just be 600 or so years later. I'm not really happy with describing choosing a particular outcome as a "F-You" to anybody. It doesn't invalidate those choices any more than our various Shepards invalidate each other. I presume most of us have made most if not all of the available choices, at one time or another. (I think I've done pretty much everything myself except for some of the Renegade petty douchebaggery.) OF course, this may just mean that I have a poor grasp of ending partisanship.
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Post by ahglock on Apr 22, 2018 19:00:06 GMT
Again, I disagree. Control is factually the cleanest... involving the least change. Reapers still exist under the control of something/someone. They just go back to dark space (after helping to repair the damage) without completing that harvest. I'm not saying which ending I like the best... I'm saying it's a matter of fact that it is control that changes things the least. The state of the galaxy remains essentially the same as it was at the start of ME1. With destroy and synthesis there are more changes. I accept you like destroy's changes the best. Not everyone agrees with you on that... so a canon ending arbitrarily tells the other side F-You. I don't think that's necessary and I would prefer they didn't do that. ETA: There are other issues with putting the timeline close to the end of ME3 that persist despite what ending choice Bioware might declare canon. Some players wiped out the Quarians, others wiped out the geth instead; others secured a peace. So, does your envisioned galaxy contain quarians? To say yes, tells everyone who sided with the geth F-You. Genophage cured or not cured? Which side of that issues gets told F-You? What about the rachni? Did they wind up becoming allies or enemies or was the queen/breeder wiped out? You're not just asking them to declare one ending canon, you're asking them to lock in one of side of every single possible major decision the players could have possibly made in that final game. For what? The privelege of exploring the same galaxy you could still explore without declaring any choice canon, it would just be 600 or so years later. I'm not really happy with describing choosing a particular outcome as a "F-You" to anybody. It doesn't invalidate those choices any more than our various Shepards invalidate each other. I presume most of us have made most if not all of the available choices, at one time or another. (I think I've done pretty much everything myself except for some of the Renegade petty douchebaggery.) OF course, this may just mean that I have a poor grasp of ending partisanship. My partisanship pretty much is just not synthesis. That dialed space magic past infinity and to me was crapping on the game while pissing on its grave, the games got biotics and plenty of space magic I can accept, synthesis was 3000 bridges too far.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 22, 2018 19:12:27 GMT
I think Synthesis would fail a usability test before even getting to popularity. I can't imagine the writers would actually want to try using that as a setting.
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Post by ahglock on Apr 22, 2018 19:23:18 GMT
Yeah, I don't think they'd pick synthesis either if they picked a canon ending. And I'm not opposed to a cannon ending, I'm just not expecting one. I think they will build on MEA, maybe drop ryder, maybe time jump a bit but stick with Andromeda.
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Post by warden on Apr 22, 2018 19:40:52 GMT
I just said that the three color endings was a bad idea, if you don't like it feel free to do it. What doesn't make sense here is your demagogy and fallacies in any case. What you actually said was: There's nothing wrong with implementing divergent endings if you don't plan to actually live with them, either through canonization or just dropping the setting outright. The bad idea would be changing your mind about that, but there's no evidence that the writers of ME3 -- again, this isn't an ending problem in particular -- and the people who decided that we needed more ME and yet they couldn't canonize something are the same people. You sure "demagogy" is the right word there? Looks like there are only about six people even reading this thread, and I'm certainly not trying to appeal to their prejudices and emotions. Hell, I'm pushing canonization, which seems to be an unpopular position with this crowd. I wouldn't be pushing that if I was playing to them. Ah yeah, the classic "put things way way out of context" me saying "the genius that thought that having different endings was a good idea, should not touch a pen ever again." it's the equivalent of saying to a friend get lost to put an example. That you like to manipulate things to your own convenience, that's another thing, but well nothing new here, it's your usual behavior, so feel free to keep twisting and changing my words to your liking.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 22, 2018 19:42:15 GMT
Guys it’s getting rather heated. You don’t have to agree but be civil please.
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Post by SofaJockey on Apr 22, 2018 21:04:16 GMT
Guys it’s getting rather heated. You don’t have to agree but be civil please.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 22, 2018 21:10:28 GMT
I think Synthesis would fail a usability test before even getting to popularity. I can't imagine the writers would actually want to try using that as a setting. Yeah, I can see a case for Control even, since the reapers could simply be gone and they leave the rest of the galaxy intact. I think the actual Crucible choice is small potatoes next to the fate of factions portion of ME3. The geth are perfectly disposable and can disappear for good, but the krogan would be tougher.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 22, 2018 21:16:11 GMT
Since the guy said the details have changed over time, I would say the genophage never existed. The krogan have a genetic defect that a female can give birth once in their lifetime.
Or have it that it was cured, but it didn't work for every female because there wasn't enough testing to make sure it would work for all. So instead of 1 live birth in 1000, its now up to......I don't know, 10 live births in 1000.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 22, 2018 21:22:25 GMT
I have to say, the star geezer bit post-credits is probably my most hated part of the entire trilogy second to Project Lazarus.
You can’t retcon the genophage out of the setting. That would probably (and deservedly) get more hatred than canonizing any ending.
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Post by Sondergaard on Apr 22, 2018 21:31:55 GMT
I think Synthesis would fail a usability test before even getting to popularity. I can't imagine the writers would actually want to try using that as a setting. Yeah, I can see a case for Control even, since the reapers could simply be gone and they leave the rest of the galaxy intact. I think the actual Crucible choice is small potatoes next to the fate of factions portion of ME3. The geth are perfectly disposable and can disappear for good, but the krogan would be tougher. I don't see why the krogan would be a problem. If the genophage isn't cured they're no worse off and continue as they were in the OT. A few lines of dialogue here and there to show Tuchanka is in turmoil over Shepard's betrayal/common sense decision are all that's needed. If the genophage is cured then, again, a few lines of dialogue saying how the future is bright for our krogan friends. The only problem I see is if the next game is set a few decades or centuries into the future because that's when the effects would start to make themselves felt.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 22, 2018 21:38:02 GMT
Yeah, I can see a case for Control even, since the reapers could simply be gone and they leave the rest of the galaxy intact. I think the actual Crucible choice is small potatoes next to the fate of factions portion of ME3. The geth are perfectly disposable and can disappear for good, but the krogan would be tougher. I don't see why the krogan would be a problem. If the genophage isn't cured they're no worse off and continue as they were in the OT. A few lines of dialogue here and there to show Tuchanka is in turmoil over Shepard's betrayal/common sense decision are all that's needed. If the genophage is cured then, again, a few lines of dialogue saying how the future is bright for our krogan friends. The only problem I see is if the next game is set a few decades or centuries into the future because that's when the effects would start to make themselves felt. If the genophage isn’t cured, it entirely changes their society. Instead of rebuilding, they’ll go back to fighting and revert back to the way they were before ME2. If the rachni are around, they take over Tuchanka, and no one will help them.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 22, 2018 22:47:42 GMT
If the genophage isn’t cured, it entirely changes their society. Instead of rebuilding, they’ll go back to fighting and revert back to the way they were before ME2. If the rachni are around, they take over Tuchanka, and no one will help them. They've had about 1400 years to do any rebuilding, but instead of doing that, they hire themselves out as bodyguards, become a mercenary, kill each other and mope all day complaining about what was done to them. One of the reasons why I don't cure the genophage.
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