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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jun 29, 2018 18:06:54 GMT
Meh, the inconsistency of the world, the lack of recognition of who you are (unless plot armor)... It to me was the most pointless game I have ever played, before or since. Thought about the Fallout series... Watched some F4 videos and gameplay, and  To be fair, many of my friends love this pile of garbage. Y'all can have it.
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Post by Starfang on Jun 29, 2018 18:53:34 GMT
Bethesda's IPs (specifically the Elder Scrolls franchise) have garnered high expectations from its fanbase ever since Morrowind released. Now more or less even if the game is poor, most people will simply be excited over the modding capabilities of said game so there is a lot to be excited about when you think of the content that the devs did not/couldn't implement, but the content that mod community can & will is limitless.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 20:18:24 GMT
Life simulators are dumb. This is why I played Skyrim for maybe 7 hours, finished the main quest, and uninstalled that pos. I am baffled by people that get fulfillment from living a mundane life inside a video game. It is horrifying really. You just summed up my thoughts/feelings about The Sims.  Yet EA make a truck load of money out of it...
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jun 29, 2018 20:35:55 GMT
Life simulators are dumb. This is why I played Skyrim for maybe 7 hours, finished the main quest, and uninstalled that pos. I am baffled by people that get fulfillment from living a mundane life inside a video game. It is horrifying really. You just summed up my thoughts/feelings about The Sims.  Yet EA make a truck load of money out of it... Yes, there is an audience. I do not understand them.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 29, 2018 20:43:13 GMT
I don't think Bethesda games are that great right out of the box. What makes me interested in them is what modders can do with them.
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Post by Queen Skadi on Jun 29, 2018 23:00:34 GMT
Life simulators are dumb. This is why I played Skyrim for maybe 7 hours, finished the main quest, and uninstalled that pos. I am baffled by people that get fulfillment from living a mundane life inside a video game. It is horrifying really. You just summed up my thoughts/feelings about The Sims.  Yet EA make a truck load of money out of it... In defense of the Sims it does require a bit of imagination on the part of the player, sure if all you choose to do is create a fairly mundane character that works a 9-5 existence and you are only focused on keeping them alive by doing the necessarily daily routines it can be boring, however the Sims also has a lot of fantastical elements to play around with that allow you to shape and completely mess up the world your sims inhabit, like creating a haunted hotel that nobody checks out of or unleashing a zombie apocalypse on the town. At least you could do that sort of stuff in Sims 3 when the map was open and not instanced environments. Sims 4 was a major step back
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 30, 2018 17:56:54 GMT
I feel that Bethesda is very good at providing players the tools to find their own fun in their games.
Some of their strengths lie in emergent gameplay, emergent storytelling, and modding, which are not really BioWare's strengths (at least in their more current crop of games).
And Skyrim for example has one of the best soundtracks in any game I've played. That adds a lot to the enjoyment of just being in the game. Add to that the interesting sandbox playground, day/night cycles, people having routines, and just the sheer amount of content that can you pick & choose, and take on at your own pace. There's a really good foundation there, if you play the game to its strengths.
I've found that all this comes together in a way that can create some really standout moments. I also find that because I can largely ignore the main questine, just taking the game at my own pace, I can... lose myself in the setting moreso (or just easier) than in other games.
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Post by Queen Skadi on Jul 1, 2018 0:34:08 GMT
I feel that Bethesda is very good at providing players the tools to find their own fun in their games. Some of their strengths lie in emergent gameplay, emergent storytelling, and modding, which are not really BioWare's strengths (at least in their more current crop of games). And Skyrim for example has one of the best soundtracks in any game I've played. That adds a lot to the enjoyment of just being in the game. Add to that the interesting sandbox playground, day/night cycles, people having routines, and just the sheer amount of content that can you pick & choose, and take on at your own pace. There's a really good foundation there, if you play the game to its strengths. I've found that all this comes together in a way that can create some really standout moments. I also find that because I can largely ignore the main questine, just taking the game at my own pace, I can... lose myself in the setting moreso (or just easier) than in other games. Emergent gameplay and emergent storytelling? Can you give me an example of how Bethesda games do these things really well in a way that other games (Saint's Row for instance) do not? Also you are entitled to your opinion on the soundtrack however personally I never really got the appeal of Jeremy Soule's work, personally I have always found his work really bland to the point where you might as well not have a soundtrack, even when he attempts a more grand sounding piece there is just something that feels off about it like a few notes are in the wrong place and it feels like an imitation of greater works rather than a piece that really fits the setting, in the end I find his music lacks "soul".
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Post by Hrungr on Jul 1, 2018 1:21:52 GMT
I feel that Bethesda is very good at providing players the tools to find their own fun in their games. Some of their strengths lie in emergent gameplay, emergent storytelling, and modding, which are not really BioWare's strengths (at least in their more current crop of games). And Skyrim for example has one of the best soundtracks in any game I've played. That adds a lot to the enjoyment of just being in the game. Add to that the interesting sandbox playground, day/night cycles, people having routines, and just the sheer amount of content that can you pick & choose, and take on at your own pace. There's a really good foundation there, if you play the game to its strengths. I've found that all this comes together in a way that can create some really standout moments. I also find that because I can largely ignore the main questine, just taking the game at my own pace, I can... lose myself in the setting moreso (or just easier) than in other games. Emergent gameplay and emergent storytelling? Can you give me an example of how Bethesda games do these things really well in a way that other games (Saint's Row for instance) do not? Also you are entitled to your opinion on the soundtrack however personally I never really got the appeal of Jeremy Soule's work, personally I have always found his work really bland to the point where you might as well not have a soundtrack, even when he attempts a more grand sounding piece there is just something that feels off about it like a few notes are in the wrong place and it feels like an imitation of greater works rather than a piece that really fits the setting, in the end I find his music lacks "soul". I haven't played Saint's Row, but I can give you some examples of how Skyrim handles it. There's a Dark Brotherhood (Assassins) mission where you're sent to kill the Emperor's cousin on her wedding day. There's a bonus if you kill her during her balcony speech with her groom-to-be. They help by providing you with several means of doing this (dropping a statue on her, sniping her, straight-up attacking her, etc.), each with their own risk of being caught and a bounty put on your head. But you can ignore all that and do things your way. And the game giving you the tools to do things your way is one of the ways to find the fun in Skyrim. A good one (if you're into Alchemy) is to brew a Frenzy potion, and if you have good enough sneak skills and perks, you can plant the potion into the groom's pocket during their speech. He'll drink it, and immediately attack and kill his wife, then in turn get killed by the guards. All the while you loot the bride, then stroll down to the pub free and clear in the bride's wedding dress for a celebratory pint. Or another fun one is a mage spell that allows you to summon the ghost of a famous assassin who just... follows you around really. And he loves to monologue about whatever nefarious scheme you're currently up to. Even in front of random strangers, hilariously implicating you in murderous schemes wherever you go. Then there's the emergent storytelling that comes from just random encounters meeting other random encounters. Like strolling along then suddenly seeing a guard being chased by a troll, being chased by a ice wraith. And they are running clear across the countryside. Time to break out the popcorn. Or the bandits who's sole purpose in life seems to be berserker-murdering your chickens. Or Maven Black-Briar losing it, for whatever reason, and starts murdering the entire town of Riften. Or me discovering the joy of telekinesis + cheese wheels. Or stealing the clothes off every Thane in Skyrim. As far as Jeremy's work goes, everyone has their musical preferences. I personally found his work in Skyrim to not only be great, but the pairing works so well it elevates the game as whole.
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Post by Queen Skadi on Jul 1, 2018 2:14:33 GMT
I haven't played Saint's Row, but I can give you some examples of how Skyrim handles it. There's a Dark Brotherhood (Assassins) mission where you're sent to kill the Emperor's cousin on her wedding day. There's a bonus if you kill her during her balcony speech with her groom-to-be. They help by providing you with several means of doing this (dropping a statue on her, sniping her, straight-up attacking her, etc.), each with their own risk of being caught and a bounty put on your head. But you can ignore all that and do things your way. And the game giving you the tools to do things your way is one of the ways to find the fun in Skyrim. A good one (if you're into Alchemy) is to brew a Frenzy potion, and if you have good enough sneak skills and perks, you can plant the potion into the groom's pocket during their speech. He'll drink it, and immediately attack and kill his wife, then in turn get killed by the guards. All the while you loot the bride, then stroll down to the pub free and clear in the bride's wedding dress for a celebratory pint. Or another fun one is a mage spell that allows you to summon the ghost of a famous assassin who just... follows you around really. And he loves to monologue about whatever nefarious scheme you're currently up to. Even in front of random strangers, hilariously implicating you in murderous schemes wherever you go. Saints Row is basically just GTA with a character creator, your standard open world type experience where you can either do missions or piss around running down civilians. As for the quest you describe I am not really seeing how this is something unique to the Elder Scrolls series or how the Elder Scrolls does this better than any other game on the market, sounds like a fairly standard open world style assassination mission where there are several opportunities set up by the quest designer as well as the freedom to just do it however you want, it is nothing that wouldn't be out of place in an Assassin's Creed game (even down to the frenzy option you describe) and pretty shallow when compared to a game like Hitman, Deus Ex or Metal Gear Solid, and while Skyrim does have some abilities and items to play around with but not many of them really yield truly unique and different results that can be used a variety of different ways to achieve clever solutions or just hilarious results, certainly nothing on the level of what the Metal Gear Solid series gives you. Then there's the emergent storytelling that comes from just random encounters meeting other random encounters. Like strolling along then suddenly seeing a guard being chased by a troll, being chased by a ice wraith. And they are running clear across the countryside. Time to break out the popcorn. Or the bandits who's sole purpose in life seems to be berserker-murdering your chickens. Or Maven Black-Briar losing it, for whatever reason, and starts murdering the entire town of Riften. Or me discovering the joy of telekinesis + cheese wheels. As far as Jeremy's work goes, everyone has their musical preferences. I personally found his work in Skyrim to not only be great, but the pairing works so well it elevates the game as whole. Do random encounters really count as emergent storytelling? If that were the case then Final Fantasy would be the king of emergent storytelling. I feel like when people talk about the greatness of the Elder Scrolls series they usually bring up stuff that is hardly unique to the series and even things that are generally done better by other games as if the Elder Scrolls series of games is the only series they have ever played or have somehow convinced themselves that somehow the way the Elder Scrolls games do the thing makes it special even though it has already been done by games before it. As for soundtracks I do agree that a good soundtrack can really elevate a game to the next level, it can lend emotional weight to a scene or really set the tone or atmosphere of a particular section and it is why I am pretty harsh when it comes to soundtracks, I just don't feel Soule's work does that, the only thing I feel when listening to Soule's work is a sense of bland tranquility.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Jul 1, 2018 2:44:27 GMT
You don't typically have the same kind of in depth freedom in other RPGs that you have in Beth games. Specializing as a vampire and practically taking out whole villages is indelibly etched into my brain from Oblivion.
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Post by Queen Skadi on Jul 1, 2018 5:15:30 GMT
You don't typically have the same kind of in depth freedom in other RPGs that you have in Beth games. Specializing as a vampire and practically taking out whole villages is indelibly etched into my brain from Oblivion. Taking out everyone in a village who isn't in someway tied to any of the quests or provides some sort of service (and even some characters that don't like Maiq for instance) in the game you mean? Hard to wipe out an entire village when half of the inhabitants have the essential tag making them immortal, sure you can wipe out throw away characters such as Nazim who have no involvements in any quests or anything vital to add to the world but then nothing really changes in the world because of it, no quests are altered and nobody even comments that he is missing, the character might as well be completely separate from the world for all it matters, a character that exists as a mere prop for the player to choose to kill to give the illusion of freedom that the rest of the game sorely lacks. Try to kill an essential NPC and they just crouch for a bit then get back up as if nothing ever happened, never once acknowledging that you tried to kill them and carrying on as business as usual. Hell does anyone in the world even acknowledge the fact that your character is a vampire? Will people react differently to you because of it or do they still give you the same quests they normally would even if those quests make no sense for a vampire to do? In the end the freedom you have in the elder scrolls games is no greater than the freedom you get in any other game like Saint's Row for example, anything you do outside of a questline is consequence free and while you are in a questline you have no choice but to follow the rigidly linear path, the freedom in Elder Scrolls is a lie.
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Post by dagless on Jul 1, 2018 17:48:32 GMT
I think it’s mainly because Bethesda got there first with open world RPG all the way back with Arena and defined the genre. Every new game updated their formula in some way, even if there’s a lot of debate about whether all the updates were a good thing or not.
It’s largely since Skyrim that everyone else has jumped on the open world bandwagon (obviously with some exceptions), and they were able to see what works and improve on it.
Personally I think Besthesda’s “go anywhere, do anything” mantra is holding them back now. It was cool when gamers had lower expectations, but now they want meaningful narrative with consequences for their actions. Things like warrior builds being able to complete the Mage’s guild story arc are classic examples, but I think that’s a little unfair. Completionists can do everything with one character, while people more serious about role playing can just not do quests that don’t fit their character. There are still few RPGs with entire story arcs devoted to specific builds, so I tthink they deserve credit for having it at all.
With Fallout 4 they seemed to try to address some of the issues. There were factions you had to (eventually) choose between, and companions with actual opinions. Unfortunately, those improvements seemed overwhelmed by how meaningless the vast majority of quests felt, how little difference dialogue options made, etc.
TLDR
The short version:
Bethesda games have lots of freedom in their worlds, but the missions/quests are very linear. The choice you get is mainly in what quests you do or ignore. Flooding the world with hundreds of dungeons/locations doesn’t really cut it anymore.
IMO, they need to expand their approach to the open world to missions and quests, with different ways to approach them and linking them in interesting ways, but they perhaps seem too focused on creating tonnes of “content” and not locking anyone out of any of it.
I hope Bethesda can learn from other games rather than being too stuck on what they’ve done before. As they are the biggest name in the genre, there’s always going to be high expectations, but they need to live up to it.
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Post by wickedcool on Jul 2, 2018 14:31:09 GMT
This is a silly argument as the counter argument is well that stinks
Let’s look at skyrim compared to the best fantasy rpgs in n the market
Any allow you to switch up from warrior to wizard to rogue? No
Any have factions or guilds Any have race choices with first/3rd person options? No Any have environments where you can interact with almost everything? No Day/night cycles? Witcher 3 Modding? Nothing else like it
The atmosphere of the dungeons whether dwemer or draugr etc.
Sure it has it short comings. MOST of these games do. Your geralt or the hero of ferrldan your never Steve or insert heroes name unless it’s text based.
You can call it trash as that’s your opinion but clearly the market says otherwise. Not many develepors have attempted a revised edition
For curiosity what do you consider to be the best rpgs. Would love to compare/contrast
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Post by dagless on Jul 2, 2018 15:57:29 GMT
Any have environments where you can interact with almost everything? I always thought they wasted that a bit, Other than rearranging your house, rolling cheese down mountains or putting buckets on NPC’s heads, what is it used for? There could be physics based puzzles and other ways to use the environment and objects to your advantage, but it doesn’t seem to add much that’s not just messing around.
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Post by heathenoxman on Jul 2, 2018 16:17:57 GMT
When I want to get a few hours of game time in before work, I fire-up a Bethesda game.
When I actually have time to sit down and concentrate, I play......anything else.
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Post by wickedcool on Jul 2, 2018 17:05:55 GMT
Moving things around
Puzzles- game is full of them. See thieves guild, dungeons etc. these include moving an object
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Post by Queen Skadi on Jul 3, 2018 1:04:27 GMT
This is a silly argument as the counter argument is well that stinks Let’s look at skyrim compared to the best fantasy rpgs in n the market Any allow you to switch up from warrior to wizard to rogue? No, Yes, seriously these are the 3 standard classes in any RPG from their conception, even the earliest Final Fantasy games allowed you to switch classes and party composition Any have factions or guilds Yes, another common feature of many RPGs, most recent example Pillars of Eternity 2 had 4 different factions you could work for and gain influence in, whats more they aren't just completely separate linear storylines that you can choose to do or ignore, they actually tie into the main storyline and who you choose to side with effects how the game ends, also see Baldur's Gate series, Gothic series, Fallout, Tyranny ectAny have race choices with first/3rd person options? No Yes, another common feature in many RPGs, whats more the racial choice in many RPGs actually has an effect on how the world reacts to and perceives your character, see Dragon Age series, Divinity Original Sin 2 ectAny have environments where you can interact with almost everything? No Try playing Divinity Original Sin or Original Sin 2, both allow you to interact with almost everything in the environment and that interactivity actually serves a purpose unlike in the Elder Scrolls gamesDay/night cycles? Witcher 3 Where have you been if you don't think this is a common feature of most RPGs? I know Bioware got lazy after NWN and did not bother to include it but most other RPGs this is a pretty standard featureModding? Nothing else like it Elder Scrolls series isn't the games that have an active modding community, not only do games like Half Life have active modding communities but entire game series have spawned out of these modding communities as well, just look at all the games that started as Half Life mods, or Quake Mods or Arma mods or even Warcraft III mods, heck even Stardew Valley has a dedicated modding communityThe atmosphere of the dungeons whether dwemer or draugr etc. Sure it has it short comings. MOST of these games do. Your geralt or the hero of ferrldan your never Steve or insert heroes name unless it’s text based. You can call it trash as that’s your opinion but clearly the market says otherwise. Not many develepors have attempted a revised edition For curiosity what do you consider to be the best rpgs. Would love to compare/contrast I get the feeling you have not played many RPGs outside of the Elder Scrolls games let alone many games at all, left my answers to your questions in bold in your quoted post, everything that you mentioned that Bethesda does has been done a thousand times by many other games and often far better.
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Post by dagless on Jul 3, 2018 6:16:59 GMT
Moving things around Puzzles- game is full of them. See thieves guild, dungeons etc. these include moving an object Moving things around rarely if ever seems to be to useful. And I wouldn’t class any of the puzzles as physics based. Activating switches or rotating columns doesn’t really make use of the engine. I mean things like putting a barrel on a beam to act as counter balance so you can walk on it to reach a ledge, or using water and buoyancy.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 3, 2018 14:33:10 GMT
And my point is, without all of those add-ons, the experience wouldn’t be so good, especially if it’s something like basic UI functionality, like in the case of SkyUI for Skyrim, or any of the various compatibility mods for Fallout 3 for machines newer than 2008. I don't know if I agree. Mods can be fun but I can play TES or FO easily without them. There's literally tons to do. Mods sort of enhance the experience but aren't necessary.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 3, 2018 14:42:57 GMT
You just summed up my thoughts/feelings about The Sims.  Yet EA make a truck load of money out of it... Yes, there is an audience. I do not understand them. Why do you have to understand them? There are lots of types of games out there that I'd never play. Do they all suck because I don't like them?
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jul 3, 2018 14:45:57 GMT
Yes, there is an audience. I do not understand them. Why do you have to understand them? There are lots of types of games out there that I'd never play. Do they all suck because I don't like them? I don't. I would like to, because then I would understand them better, but it is beyond me. I don't hate Bethesda. I don't appreciate them, and I am just remarking on how surprising it is to me personally (on an everyday basis) how different we all are. Maybe I should recognize the pattern.... Nah. 
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theratpack55
Entertain me.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by theratpack55 on Jul 3, 2018 19:39:44 GMT
A lot of people have said what Bethesda games do that they personally like, and I agree with many of them, but here's what they don't do that I very much appreciate:
Bethesda games (at least until Fallout 4, which is a separate issue) don't generally put words in my character's mouth. By which I mean, I am not forced to choose from three different variants of "how horrible!", or if I am, it's easy enough to play at least one of them off as being sarcastic, seeing how I'm not usually forced to perform a particular type of action afterwards. I can still just shoot the person I've just technically agreed with in the face, turning the whole exchange into a farce (and a good roleplaying experience). I am also not forced to witness a cringeworthy animation of my character's face expressing the horror that my character shouldn't be feeling in the first place. I do not have to be the world's holy savior at all, I can just be the guy who keeps all his stuff here, so he's protecting that. Or someone who's just doing stuff for shits and giggles, or money, or whatever.
And mind you, the game might not be actively accounting for that, but it is not contradicting it either, and that's why I'm still hyped for Beth games. Video games will probably never be able to let me roleplay exactly the way I want, but if they're at least not fighting me every step of the way, that lets me have the fun I'm looking for.
In other words, Beth games are far, far from perfect, but I have not yet found a franchise that allows me to fill in the gaps in a narrative as freely with my own context as Beth games do, while still remaining immersed in the gameworld. I hope there will be more games aiming for that in the future, but it doesn't look like that's the general direction gaming is taking right now, so idk. That's the best I've got right now.
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correctamundo
N5
   
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
Prime Likes: They never liked me! No one likes me!
Posts: 2,830 Likes: 5,270
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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A thousand and then some.
They never liked me! No one likes me!
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Post by correctamundo on Jul 3, 2018 23:08:30 GMT
Because they deserve it.
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 5, 2018 4:25:11 GMT
They brought us Doom!! I mean come on!!
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