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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 19, 2019 15:26:18 GMT
See the summary in the sticky thread about war assets: assuming that everything else went perfect, having Tali and Legion survive ME2 in a good shape enables you to broker peace and get 300 more war assets. The rest combined gives you 295 (25 Jack, 65 Kasumi, 25 Zaeed, 25 Samara, 25 Jacob, 25 Miranda, 80 Wrex, 25 Grunt). Ah. War assets. Yeah. For the same reason Anthem initially had a roadblock requiring you to do a grind for achievements before you can progress with the main quest: lack of core content. The ME2 squad IS core content. You can't have a Suicide Mission without a squad and the Suicide aspect of said mission can't be of essence unless there is some attachment to that squad This is one of my objections to its methodology. Then I disagree with you.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 19, 2019 15:27:43 GMT
SirSourpuss Honestly, I have little interest in going through a pro and con of every game. I could counter your little quest distribution graph with one about how much time in each game you spend in a boring mining mini game or post about ME2's persuasion system or other flaws. I could say how ME3's perceived linearity hides it's massive depth in taking decisions from ME1 and 2 into account. In the end though, each ME game has its strength's and weaknesses and again, I would not dispute that ME2 is a great game on its own. Really my only (but rather substantial( gripe with it is how it fits (or rather doesn't fit) into the trilogy.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 19, 2019 15:36:45 GMT
The ME2 squad IS core content. You can't have a Suicide Mission without a squad and the Suicide aspect of said mission can't be of essence unless there is some attachment to that squad The only squad core content is Garrus, Mordin, Jack, Miranda and Jacob because they are required no matter what. The rest of the squadmates are not since they are optional. Of course the player needs to have 8 squadmates to get the collector ship mission and to use the Omega-4 relay. The other 3 needed is up to the player.
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Post by burningcherry on Jun 19, 2019 15:38:56 GMT
For the same reason Anthem initially had a roadblock requiring you to do a grind for achievements before you can progress with the main quest: lack of core content. The ME2 squad IS core content. Then it has more core content than ME3 but the "Reapers are coming now" scene at the end is a destructive move if the core content is shaped like this.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 19, 2019 15:42:52 GMT
ME3's perceived linearity hides it's massive depth in taking decisions from ME1 and 2 into account In a very dismissive, hamfisted and anticlimactic way most of the time, while completely sidelining "optional" content, because of these decisions. In the event that ME3 got the development time in a way that it would resolve these issues in a satisfactory way, then yes. In the end though, each ME game has its strength's and weaknesses and again, I would not dispute that ME2 is a great game on its own. Really my only (but rather substantial( gripe with it is how it fits (or rather doesn't fit) into the trilogy. I disagree. I think it raises some significant issues that again ME3 doesn't take advantage of. If anything, I think it is the other way around, that Bioware made a very bad sequel to ME2.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 19, 2019 15:50:59 GMT
The only squad core content is Garrus, Mordin, Jack, Miranda and Jacob because they are required no matter what. The rest of the squadmates are not since they are optional. Of course the player needs to have 8 squadmates to get the collector ship mission and to use the Omega-4 relay. The other 3 needed is up to the player. The point of the squad and their "duplicates" is to afford players with alternatives to their preferred squad composition, which is why you have Thane and Kasumi, Tali and Legion, Jack and Samara etc. You can chose to cripple your selection pool, if you so wish, but that is up to you. Then it has more core content than ME3 but the "Reapers are coming now" scene at the end is a destructive move if the core content is shaped like this. I agree. Bioware rushed it inexplicably, in my opinion. Which is why, as I've said, giving ME the AssCreed trilogy treatment would have been greatly beneficial. Nobody put a gun on Bioware's head and forced them to wrap it up in ME3. Ideally, I would have stretched the plot to " ME2" over multiple titles, like Ubi did with Brotherhood and Revelations, as we learned more about the Reapers and eventually came up to a Revelation, fittingly, that would allow us to actually fight Reapers in ME3, instead of fucking Cerberus for half the fucking game.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 19, 2019 15:56:30 GMT
The point of the squad and their "duplicates" is to afford players with alternatives to their preferred squad composition, which is why you have Thane and Kasumi, Tali and Legion, Jack and Samara etc. You can chose to cripple your selection pool, if you so wish, but that is up to you. What's with Thane and Kasumi? Kasumi I get since she can be used for the vent, but what does Thane duplicate?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 19, 2019 16:10:45 GMT
The point of the squad and their "duplicates" is to afford players with alternatives to their preferred squad composition, which is why you have Thane and Kasumi, Tali and Legion, Jack and Samara etc. You can chose to cripple your selection pool, if you so wish, but that is up to you. What's with Thane and Kasumi? Kasumi I get since she can be used for the vent, but what does Thane duplicate? You're right. My mistake. He's probably closer to Garrus as an alt.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 19, 2019 16:25:49 GMT
ME3's perceived linearity hides it's massive depth in taking decisions from ME1 and 2 into account In a very dismissive, hamfisted and anticlimactic way most of the time, while completely sidelining "optional" content, because of these decisions. In the event that ME3 got the development time in a way that it would resolve these issues in a satisfactory way, then yes. What one person sees as sidelining, others might view as getting some focus back on the story at hand. And where you see dismissive anticlimactic cop-outs, I see a game that takes more variables in it's storytelling into account than any other game I know and many of those (not all obviously but many) in massive ways that change entire story arks (thinking of Wrex and Mordin, being there or not for the Tuchanka ark and how that influences the krogan or about how Rannoch can change based on whether Tali and/or Legion are there and what kinds of options you have based on previous decisions, just two out of may examples). Anyway, I doubt I'll convince you that in terms of a logistic effort, ME3 carries a huge burden (caused in many instances by very ilttle foresight during ME2 development I might add) very well but that's ok, let's just disagree there as well. Yes, as I wrote earlier as well, there would have been a way to write a very different ME3 to go with all the flips that ME2 did instead of pivoting back to something that was more aligned with ME1. I agree on that. But it wasn't done and the discontinuity remains an issue. This is what I am saying all along. Until we got into this whole ME2 vs. ME3 thing (which was never really what my point was all about). Both ME2 and ME3 failed to provide a sense of continuity and coherence within the trilogy IMO. It started with ME2 but it's not like ME3 improved upon the issue.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 19, 2019 17:23:09 GMT
In a very dismissive, hamfisted and anticlimactic way most of the time, while completely sidelining "optional" content, because of these decisions. In the event that ME3 got the development time in a way that it would resolve these issues in a satisfactory way, then yes. What one person sees as sidelining, others might view as getting some focus back on the story at hand. And where you see dismissive anticlimactic cop-outs, I see a game that takes more variables in it's storytelling into account than any other game I know and many of those (not all obviously but many) in massive ways that change entire story arks (thinking of Wrex and Mordin, being there or not for the Tuchanka ark and how that influences the krogan or about how Rannoch can change based on whether Tali and/or Legion are there and what kinds of options you have based on previous decisions, just two out of may examples). Anyway, I doubt I'll convince you that in terms of a logistic effort, ME3 carries a huge burden (caused in many instances by very ilttle foresight during ME2 development I might add) very well but that's ok, let's just disagree there as well. Yes, as I wrote earlier as well, there would have been a way to write a very different ME3 to go with all the flips that ME2 did instead of pivoting back to something that was more aligned with ME1. I agree on that. But it wasn't done and the discontinuity remains an issue. This is what I am saying all along. Until we got into this whole ME2 vs. ME3 thing (which was never really what my point was all about). Both ME2 and ME3 failed to provide a sense of continuity and coherence within the trilogy IMO. It started with ME2 but it's not like ME3 improved upon the issue. We disagree on what we want and that's OK. I think ME2, as the best received of the ME games, should dictate the way forward, rather than ME3, as it wasn't as well received, should be rebuilt, rather than the other way around. Because in the later case, you are still left with a bad game and a potentially much worse ME2, rather than a good ME2 and a potentially better ME3. Each game should stand on its own and, frankly, on too many fronts, ME3 does not and all the DLC and patches in the world, that it wasn't going to get either way, weren't going to fix that.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 19, 2019 17:33:27 GMT
We disagree on what we want and that's OK. I think ME2, as the best received of the ME games, should dictate the way forward, rather than ME3, as it wasn't as well received, should be rebuilt, rather than the other way around. Because in the later case, you are still left with a bad game and a potentially much worse ME2, rather than a good ME2 and a potentially better ME3. Each game should stand on its own and, frankly, on too many fronts, ME3 does not and all the DLC and patches in the world, that it wasn't going to get either way, weren't going to fix that. Well, fair enough. I think both games would ideally have been constructed differently, so we disagree on that point. Ultimately, now that we have what we have, the point is moot anyway. And even if they were ever to make a remake of the trilogy, I wouldn't want them to change the story significantly now after the fact (I generally don't like that sort of thing and would much rather just see them learn and do better in future titles, though there is not much indication of that at this point ).
As a final remark on this, I want to emphasize that, in the context of video games in general, the ME trilogy still is a masterpiece in my book and will remain one my favorites of all time, so all this criticism is as far as I am concerned, all still complains on a very high level.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 19, 2019 17:45:28 GMT
I think both games would ideally have been constructed differently, so we disagree on that point. I understand the sentiment, it is not a guarantee for a better product, though. Especially considering Bioware. And even if they were ever to make a remake of the trilogy, I wouldn't want them to change the story significantly now after the fact (I generally don't like that sort of thing and would much rather just see them learn and do better in future titles, though there is not much indication of that at this point ). They could remake it and stop at 2, for all I care. ME3 was a step back in every way. To be frank, though, the 16-18 development time it enjoyed was not, in any realistic timeframe, enough, to realistically do justice to the scope it was trying to address. As a final remark on this, I want to emphasize that, in the context of video games in general, the ME trilogy still is a masterpiece in my book and will remain one my favorites of all time, so all this criticism is as far as I am concerned, all still complains on a very high level. I can agree to that, I just wish it ended with a more polished title. There is no other franchise this far, that I have ever been as invested in and loved. Whether I am satisfied with what I got, that is besides the point.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 20, 2019 15:11:34 GMT
For the same reason Anthem initially had a roadblock requiring you to do a grind for achievements before you can progress with the main quest: lack of core content. My takeaway from this discussion is that the main quest/side quest taxonomy isn't always useful. Taxonomy is suppose to help us make sense of stuff, not get in the way of understanding stuff. Although it occurs to me that the point of that graph was to be anti-sequel propaganda rather than to promote a serious analysis, so thinking about it too much is a mistake too.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 20, 2019 15:30:36 GMT
The only squad core content is Garrus, Mordin, Jack, Miranda and Jacob because they are required no matter what. The rest of the squadmates are not since they are optional. Of course the player needs to have 8 squadmates to get the collector ship mission and to use the Omega-4 relay. The other 3 needed is up to the player. The point of the squad and their "duplicates" is to afford players with alternatives to their preferred squad composition, which is why you have Thane and Kasumi, Tali and Legion, Jack and Samara etc. You can chose to cripple your selection pool, if you so wish, but that is up to you. Well, putting only your favorite characters in the pool isn't exactly crippling, except if you haven't upgraded the Normandy and have to deal with unexpected absences. (The SM is a lot more fun if you play badly, I've found.)
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 20, 2019 15:52:17 GMT
Well, putting only your favorite characters in the pool isn't exactly crippling, except if you haven't upgraded the Normandy and have to deal with unexpected absences. (The SM is a lot more fun if you play badly, I've found.) It's to accommodate your preferred playstyle. Maybe you want to play a full sniper team, or a full biotic team, or a full tech team, etc. It's very good to have a large pool of squadmates, duplicates even, to choose from, in order to play the way you want, to have the versatility you want. From a gameplay standpoint, it's a lot more liberating and gives far greater player choice to playthroughs and adds to replayability. Which ME3, with its much more limited squad pool, did not.
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Post by capn233 on Jun 21, 2019 1:16:48 GMT
I like the idea of comparing the games based on time spent on main quests. Of course to be fair you would need to subtract all the time in ME1 spent driving the Mako on plot worlds, as well as time spent turning items into omni-gel.
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Post by burningcherry on Jun 21, 2019 9:55:14 GMT
I like the idea of comparing the games based on time spent on main quests. Of course to be fair you would need to subtract all the time in ME1 spent driving the Mako on plot worlds, as well as time spent turning items into omni-gel. No one's said it's the only criterion.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 21, 2019 18:18:32 GMT
At least it makes sense. A minute is a real thing, and how many minutes you spend doing interesting stuff vs. how many you spend doing dull stuff isn't a crazy way to think about this.
Although I kind of like having some downtime. ME2 mining worked for me. Driving around on the ME1 UNC worlds would have worked if the worlds themselves had.
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Post by capn233 on Jun 21, 2019 21:43:15 GMT
I actually like the uncharted worlds in ME1. Although I think it is a lot easier to appreciate them when you know where everything is and you can be an efficient completionist.
I also don't think planet scanning is that big a deal in ME2, especially with an import where you get a mineral bonus. Also on modern pc mouse sensitivity is such that you can sweep quickly. I agree with the downtime, and the Uncharted Worlds music is relaxing.
I probably like the "ping a system and run away from Reapers" fetch minigame in ME3 the least out of these things.
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Post by Polka Dot on Jun 21, 2019 22:27:28 GMT
I like the idea of comparing the games based on time spent on main quests. Of course to be fair you would need to subtract all the time in ME1 spent driving the Mako on plot worlds Why? Driving the Mako on those plot worlds (Therum, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, Ilos) were all combat levels with enemies to defeat and loot to acquire. Much more organic than being magically teleported to a corridor full of waist-high barricades imho.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 22, 2019 0:34:55 GMT
I'm not sure shuttles qualify as magical teleporters.
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Post by melbella on Jun 22, 2019 16:29:39 GMT
Although I kind of like having some downtime. ME2 mining worked for me Me too. Scanning is very relaxing. I actually have to force myself to NOT scan every planet. I probably spend as many credits on probes as I do on upgrades.
I'm not sure shuttles qualify as magical teleporters. Well, in ME2 the shuttle pilot is invisible so it could be magic.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2019 18:15:55 GMT
I like the idea of comparing the games based on time spent on main quests. Of course to be fair you would need to subtract all the time in ME1 spent driving the Mako on plot worlds Why? Driving the Mako on those plot worlds (Therum, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, Ilos) were all combat levels with enemies to defeat and loot to acquire. Much more organic than being magically teleported to a corridor full of waist-high barricades imho. I think arriving on a shuttle made far more sense than being dropped from a spaceship on a flyby in a wheeled tank and landing with just a little bounce. The places we landed in ME2 were generally merc bases and hideouts, so that they would have set up cover and barricades made some sense as well. Stopping to scan for minerals and pick up space trash while enroute to the main mission (which was often described as being urgent) didn't make sense to me. Driving around to hunt for minerals and space trash after the mission was completed also did seem like if really fit into the game... Mining and exporing planets was clearly not Shepard's job.
Of the Trilogy games, I enjoyed ME3's planet scanning the most. ME2 was OK IF you imported a character and didn't worry about getting every upgrade. Otherwise it is a real time sink... and still clearly not Shepard's job.
I liked ME:A's system best... having multiple ways to get minerals needed for upgrades, including purchasing them. I liked having same notify me when I entered an area where I could search. I could then just open the interface and throw down a probe if I got a spike while carrying on towards my objective. Part of Ryder's job was to find resources for the Initiative, so it felt to me like it fit better than it did with Shepard... who was a soldier trying to stop and urgent threat to the galaxy. There were established mines and resource-focused companies that should have been doing the mining.
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Post by yan on Jun 24, 2019 5:17:40 GMT
ME2 was a stupid game. But I like the combat and the majority of the new faces
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Post by sassafrassa on Jun 27, 2019 4:10:44 GMT
In terms of gampelay I'm not really sure how I feel about ME1 vs ME2, taken as a whole that is. Ultimately I really like many of ME1's concepts but wish they had been better realized in a sequel rather than cut. That said, I think that the combat in ME2 is better. There is a greater feedback, flashier effects, more diverse enemy classes, and the weapons are all designed better.
However, I do miss the organic feel of ME1's combat, the unity of level design in which each area was believably connected and designed in such a way that dialogue and shootouts could occur on the fly. Something else I miss from ME1's combat was all those big open spaces you could fight in on the uncharted worlds. You'd come across a pirate bunker and then have a few options; just charge in with the Mako and hope to take everything out before being destroyed? Soften it up with the Mako from a distance and then go in on foot? Sniper from afar, ducking in and out of cover, using the terrain to shield you? Perhaps you drive up a nearby mountain and rain down hell from above, or you completely flank the enemy base and assault it from a more favorable direction? I also kind of miss those long range artillery battles with the Mako and various enemies with heavy hitting weapons.
Of-course in some ways ME1's combat was faster; it was a bad call I think to nerf biotics in ME2. Where is the fun in biotics if you can't use them except on enemies that are already near dead? They are so much more useful in ME1 against its tankier enemies. Spring forward with your shotgun, use lift on the first enemey, run under him, hit throw with the second baddie, cast singularity on the next two, and then blast the fifth with your carnage shot! Damn that is so fun in ME1 but ME2 has no equivalent.
That said, these aspects of ME1 are fun but are all clunky, so I repeat that I wanted to see them refined in ME2 rather than shifted completely. ME2's weapons, and yes its ammo, could have worked just as well in a system more similar to ME1. Perhaps what Andromeda did? Making cover the focus of combat was not necessary and turned the game into a shooting gallery.
I'm not really sure that I agree that ME2 had better sidequests; I mean I wouldn't consider the squad stuff side content because it is the bulk of the game. In fact, ME2's side content is actually a lot weaker than ME1's in terms of roleplaying and story-telling. In ME1 many sidequests are fully voiced with conversations with many choices with many NPC's, often with Shepard being given choices to make so that the player can roleplay and shape their Shepard's style and personality. The combat environments are very samey, but I'd rather have decent if clunky combat and a great story with sensible and believable world building. The Uncharted Worlds are a bit barren, but they also gave ME1 a real sense of scale. It feels so much more massive than ME2 or ME2. It actually feels like you are exploring space.
In the end, I prefer ME1 to ME2 because ME1 is a more comprehensible and consistent universe. It's characters, its visual design, its music, its quest content, and its story all fit together a lot better than they do in ME2. This all comes together to make ME1 feel just a bit more believable and permit the player to take it just a bit more seriously. There plenty of positives to the changes ME2 made, but I feel it shifted the setting away from medium science fiction into pop-sci, which primed it to become action schlock in ME3.
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