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Post by Shinobu on Jun 20, 2018 4:41:02 GMT
Insert "co-op a feel" joke here.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 21, 2018 7:42:33 GMT
I'm posting this here because the question transcends all BioWare IP's. Casey's recent comments about romance suggest that there's an expectation that a romance has a sex scene, and that's not what they are doing.  variety.com/2018/gaming/features/biowares-casey-hudson-interview-1202842336/So, in the days of the Witcher III and even Assassins Creed Odyssey, can a game have romance without sex? Is it about the characters or is just 'let's ban g, ok'? Past character romances like Josie (DAI) and Suvi (MEA) have got lukewarm reactions from some simply for that character not getting their kit off. So what is the place of sex scenes in BioWare games vs. the place of romance and relationships? Simple: If I wanted to have a non sexual romance in game I would play T for Teen such as Uncharted 4, and if I wanted a sexual relationship I play Witcher 3 (and the romance and sex are well done than Inquisition) And BioWare might as well provide balance between sexual relationships and romance. |
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 21, 2018 7:43:46 GMT
A good romance doesn't really need a sex scene. Then what would be the point? |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 21, 2018 22:24:14 GMT
A good romance doesn't really need a sex scene. Then what would be the point? There are lots of points to romantic relationships that don't involve having sex. Assuming you have a significant other in your life, I imagine you and they are not always having sex but enjoy having romantic moments together as well. To use another example, I'll point to your favorite game The Witcher 3. Geralt has romantic moments with women like Triss or Yennefer that doesn't involve them having sex together but merely enjoying those romantic moments. Some people want those moments without the sex, either for biological reasons like sexual orientation or non-biological reasons such as personal preferences for example religious beliefs. |
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 22, 2018 10:04:07 GMT
Then what would be the point? There are lots of points to romantic relationships that don't involve having sex. Assuming you have a significant other in your life, I imagine you and they are not always having sex but enjoy having romantic moments together as well. To use another example, I'll point to your favorite game The Witcher 3. Geralt has romantic moments with women like Triss or Yennefer that doesn't involve them having sex together but merely enjoying those romantic moments. Some people want those moments without the sex, either for biological reasons like sexual orientation or non-biological reasons such as personal preferences for example religious beliefs. There's nothing wrong with having great romantic moments and such, but playing a mature game and not expecting any action? Men are pursuers and hunters when it comes to poon, and that's why sex is always involved in relationships because men collectively are poon hunters. So there you go. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 23, 2018 19:37:48 GMT
There are lots of points to romantic relationships that don't involve having sex. Assuming you have a significant other in your life, I imagine you and they are not always having sex but enjoy having romantic moments together as well. To use another example, I'll point to your favorite game The Witcher 3. Geralt has romantic moments with women like Triss or Yennefer that doesn't involve them having sex together but merely enjoying those romantic moments. Some people want those moments without the sex, either for biological reasons like sexual orientation or non-biological reasons such as personal preferences for example religious beliefs. There's nothing wrong with having great romantic moments and such, but playing a mature game and not expecting any action? Men are pursuers and hunters when it comes to poon, and that's why sex is always involved in relationships because men collectively are poon hunters. So there you go. Most Mature games don't even feature romantic or sexual content so I don't see why that should be an expectation. As for your assertion, some men are certainly but not all are 'poon hunters'. Humans are not a collective, but a group of individuals. So why shouldn't those who aren't not be allowed to have access to the content they desire as well? As you said these are mature games so they also handle romance more maturely than some games aimed for younger audiences. And no, sex is not always involved in relationships. |
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Cyberstrike
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
PSN: cyberstrike-nTo
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jun 23, 2018 19:44:28 GMT
No, a romance does not need a sex scene. Sex =/= Romance. There are romantic relationships between people that do not involve sex, and sexual relationships between people that do not involve romance. The characters you listed Suvi and Josephine are my favorite romances in the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series, and in the Josephine's case my favorite of all Bioware if not video game romances, and like you mentioned they don't involve sex. In fact them having at least the opportunity to be seen as nonsexual in the relationship is a notable part of why I like those romances so much. Hopefully in the future they will have more romances that are explicitly not sexual.
I think the scene in Tech Lab between Ryder and Suvi is the start of a sex scene but because Suvi tells Ryder to lock the door and I think Ryder and Suvi were getting it on just after the fade to black.
While I do think that the Inquisitor and Josephine do have sex it can be when ever the player wants it too be after the relationship starts there is a great exchange before the Inquisitor go to battle in the Temple where the Inquisitor and Josephine have an exchange that goes something to effect of:
Inquisitor: "When I come back I want some private time with you."
Josephine: "How can you think of that at a time like this?" Inquisitor: "How can I not?" Josephine: "Then I'll see what I can do."
Strongly implying that, if the player selects that dialogue option on the wheel, that they were sexual active and/or that they were both wanting sex but waiting for the correct time. Again the beauty of The Inquisitor's relationship with Josephine is that it's ambiguous with not only the fact that they are having sex but when they are having sex in the relationship.
I do find Josephine standing on her tip toes kissing a dwarf to be unintentionally funny, although that animation does work well with the humans, elves, and the qunari.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 23, 2018 19:51:55 GMT
No, a romance does not need a sex scene. Sex =/= Romance. There are romantic relationships between people that do not involve sex, and sexual relationships between people that do not involve romance. The characters you listed Suvi and Josephine are my favorite romances in the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series, and in the Josephine's case my favorite of all Bioware if not video game romances, and like you mentioned they don't involve sex. In fact them having at least the opportunity to be seen as nonsexual in the relationship is a notable part of why I like those romances so much. Hopefully in the future they will have more romances that are explicitly not sexual.
I think the scene in Tech Lab between Ryder and Suvi is the start of a sex scene but because Suvi tells Ryder to lock the door and I think Ryder and Suvi were getting it on just after the fade to black.
While I do think that the Inquisitor and Josephine do have sex it can be when ever the player wants it too be after the relationship starts there is a great exchange before the Inquisitor go to battle in the Temple where the Inquisitor and Josephine have an exchange that goes something to effect of:
Inquisitor: "When I come back I want some private time with you."
Josephine: "How can you think of that at a time like this?" Inquisitor: "How can I not?" Josephine: "Then I'll see what I can do."
Strongly implying that, if the player selects that dialogue option on the wheel, that they were sexual active and/or that they were both wanting sex but waiting for the correct time. Again the beauty of The Inquisitor's relationship with Josephine is that it's ambiguous with not only the fact that they are having sex but when they are having sex in the relationship.
I do find Josephine standing on her tip toes kissing a dwarf to be unintentionally funny, although that animation does work well with the humans, elves, and the qunari.
With Suvi, asking the devs her romance was one of the ones that was ambiguous about whether they had sex or not that they talked about before release. It could have been handled better possibly, but considering before Andromeda Mass Effect only had one romaance where sex wasn't mandatory but instead the relationship was left ambiguous with Kelly Chambers it was progress. As for Josephine, yeah of all the romances hers seems to have the most support for being nonsexual(not counting the KOTOR romances) since her writer even straight up said she could be seen as asexual or demisexual as well as bisexual, and the romance itself was left intentionally vague so anybody could have the kind of relationship they want. So yeah either they are in a nonsexual relationship, are in one, want to be one but waiting until the correct time, and so on is all equally valid. |
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 24, 2018 5:34:43 GMT
There's nothing wrong with having great romantic moments and such, but playing a mature game and not expecting any action? Men are pursuers and hunters when it comes to poon, and that's why sex is always involved in relationships because men collectively are poon hunters. So there you go. Most Mature games don't even feature romantic or sexual content so I don't see why that should be an expectation. As for your assertion, some men are certainly but not all are 'poon hunters'. Humans are not a collective, but a group of individuals. So why shouldn't those who aren't not be allowed to have access to the content they desire as well? As you said these are mature games so they also handle romance more maturely than some games aimed for younger audiences. And no, sex is not always involved in relationships. Listen, if a man pursues a woman 9 times out of 10 is about poon and conquest. Now, you may have some who want to have serious relationships without wanting sex, but even that is extremely rare. And men collectively are into physical relationships and we wired that way. It is what it is. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 24, 2018 6:32:13 GMT
Most Mature games don't even feature romantic or sexual content so I don't see why that should be an expectation. As for your assertion, some men are certainly but not all are 'poon hunters'. Humans are not a collective, but a group of individuals. So why shouldn't those who aren't not be allowed to have access to the content they desire as well? As you said these are mature games so they also handle romance more maturely than some games aimed for younger audiences. And no, sex is not always involved in relationships. Listen, if a man pursues a woman 9 times out of 10 is about poon and conquest. Now you may have some who want to have serious relationships without wanting sex but even that is extremely rare. And men collectively are into physical relationships and we wired that way. It is what it is. But then why shouldn’t that 1 out of 10 guys not get what they want in video games as well? |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 24, 2018 8:08:10 GMT
Game romance doesn't mean "sex scenes" anymore than movie or book romance means sex scenes. Most MCU movies have romantic subplots without sex scenes. Lord of the Rings has romantic subplots, and no sex scenes.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 24, 2018 16:14:58 GMT
Most Mature games don't even feature romantic or sexual content so I don't see why that should be an expectation. As for your assertion, some men are certainly but not all are 'poon hunters'. Humans are not a collective, but a group of individuals. So why shouldn't those who aren't not be allowed to have access to the content they desire as well? As you said these are mature games so they also handle romance more maturely than some games aimed for younger audiences. And no, sex is not always involved in relationships. Listen, if a man pursues a woman 9 times out of 10 is about poon and conquest. Now you may have some who want to have serious relationships without wanting sex but even that is extremely rare. And men collectively are into physical relationships and we wired that way. It is what it is. That's not romance, though. That's just sex. |
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 24, 2018 17:24:27 GMT
Game romance doesn't mean "sex scenes" anymore than movie or book romance means sex scenes. Most MCU movies have romantic subplots without sex scenes. Lord of the Rings has romantic subplots, and no sex scenes. Well yeah because they're PG-13 movies and romance books for teens. |
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 24, 2018 17:28:02 GMT
Listen, if a man pursues a woman 9 times out of 10 is about poon and conquest. Now you may have some who want to have serious relationships without wanting sex but even that is extremely rare. And men collectively are into physical relationships and we wired that way. It is what it is. That's not romance, though. That's just sex. ![]()  |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 24, 2018 17:58:28 GMT
Game romance doesn't mean "sex scenes" anymore than movie or book romance means sex scenes. Most MCU movies have romantic subplots without sex scenes. Lord of the Rings has romantic subplots, and no sex scenes. Well yeah because they're PG-13 movies and romance books for teens. Plenty of "romance books for teens" do have sex scenes. |
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 25, 2018 7:16:30 GMT
I don't think anything graphic is necessary. I think the ME1 fade to black scene with Shepard + LI worked pretty well.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 25, 2018 12:23:53 GMT
Well yeah because they're PG-13 movies and romance books for teens. Plenty of "romance books for teens" do have sex scenes.  |
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 25, 2018 12:24:58 GMT
I don't think anything graphic is necessary. I think the ME1 fade to black scene with Shepard + LI worked pretty well. Yeah but that would've been a bit boring. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 25, 2018 15:04:52 GMT
Plenty of "romance books for teens" do have sex scenes.  |
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 26, 2018 6:50:37 GMT
So you mean to tell me that they put detailed, uncut, and erotic sex scenes in teen books??? The authors could get in trouble for that, genius! 😒😔 |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 26, 2018 8:31:28 GMT
So you mean to tell me that they put detailed, uncut, and erotic sex scenes in teen books??? The authors could get in trouble for that, genius! 😒😔 Yes, they could! And they do! Parents get pissy about it! Sometimes the book will be banned from school libraries! But it happens! Tender Morsels, by Margo Lanagan features graphic sex, incestuous rape, gangrape and forced abortion, all in the first few chapters, but in the UK it was marketed as "good for girls 14 and up". The second book in the Zeroes trilogy, by Scott Westerfeld, Margo Lanagan and Deborah Biancotti, has a lesbian sex scene. Nick and Norah's Infinite Playlist has an oral sex scene. Fault in Our Stars has a sex scene, Divergent has a sex scene. People wanted 13 Reasons Why to come with a label on the cover to warn people about its depictions of sexual assault. Teen fiction deals with issues that teens will encounter in real life. That means they often include sex, rape, assault at school or home, drug use, depression and suicide, other mental health issues, school shootings, homelessness, and I could probably keep going, if pressed. It's actually fairly common for a book marketed to a teenage audience to receive backlash from "concerned parents" who find the content objectionable. I've worked as a bookseller, and now as a library assistant, and it's pretty important to my job to be broadly aware of the content in any given book, because I don't want parents coming back pissed because I didn't warn them that it might corrupt their precious babies. That said, I usually get away with it, because most parents don't bother to even flick through the books they buy their kids. They're far more concerned about tv, movies and video games, where the objectionable content is more immediately apparent. |
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Post by Lavochkin on Jun 26, 2018 8:53:39 GMT
If it wasn't for Cora showing off her bare rump in the final scene of her romance, I would've demanded a refund for Andromeda.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 26, 2018 11:08:03 GMT
So you mean to tell me that they put detailed, uncut, and erotic sex scenes in teen books??? The authors could get in trouble for that, genius! 😒😔 Yes, they could! And they do! Parents get pissy about it! Sometimes the book will be banned from school libraries! But it happens! Tender Morsels, by Margo Lanagan features graphic sex, incestuous rape, gangrape and forced abortion, all in the first few chapters, but in the UK it was marketed as "good for girls 14 and up". The second book in the Zeroes trilogy, by Scott Westerfeld, Margo Lanagan and Deborah Biancotti, has a lesbian sex scene. Nick and Norah's Infinite Playlist has an oral sex scene. Fault in Our Stars has a sex scene, Divergent has a sex scene. People wanted 13 Reasons Why to come with a label on the cover to warn people about its depictions of sexual assault. Teen fiction deals with issues that teens will encounter in real life. That means they often include sex, rape, assault at school or home, drug use, depression and suicide, other mental health issues, school shootings, homelessness, and I could probably keep going, if pressed. It's actually fairly common for a book marketed to a teenage audience to receive backlash from "concerned parents" who find the content objectionable. I've worked as a bookseller, and now as a library assistant, and it's pretty important to my job to be broadly aware of the content in any given book, because I don't want parents coming back pissed because I didn't warn them that it might corrupt their precious babies. That said, I usually get away with it, because most parents don't bother to even flick through the books they buy their kids. They're far more concerned about tv, movies and video games, where the objectionable content is more immediately apparent.  |
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Post by The_Smiling_Bandit on Jun 26, 2018 12:10:45 GMT
I think, unfortunately, to the average consumer the answer is yes. OK maybe not sex scenes per se, but I think the culture that surrounds writing tell us that if there is not a significant physical display of affection then that romance has not reached its (forgive the term) climax; this is itself a rather short sighted approach that ignores the fact that being comfortable enough with someone to become emotionally intimate is also extremely difficult. But of course, emotional vulnerability just doesn’t sell as well as a big damn kiss or a pre-climax climax. |
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Post by The_Smiling_Bandit on Jun 26, 2018 17:39:34 GMT
I think, unfortunately, to the average consumer the answer is yes. OK maybe not sex scenes per se, but I think the culture that surrounds writing tell us that if there is not a significant physical display of affection then that romance has not reached its (forgive the term) climax; this is itself a rather short sighted approach that ignores the fact that being comfortable enough with someone to become emotionally intimate is also extremely difficult. But of course, emotional vulnerability just doesn’t sell as well as a big damn kiss or a pre-climax climax. It's not just that. Telling interesting and compelling stories is still something that many games struggle with, and by that I mean just the basics of telling a good story. Telling a good romance that doesn't fall flat on its face in some way (or just comes off as cringy) is probably just as difficult. So yes, I can see someone using depictions of sex and physical affections as a short-cut. I agree that this isn't exactly ideal. The argument I made earlier in the thread is more that depiction of sex can be good added value on top of a good romance (when done well, obviously), since it makes the whole thing much more real, there's no cutoff in the middle due to censorship concerns etc., it simply tells the story beginning to end and adds to the overall immersion. Of course, with someone who's uncomfortable with depiction of sex in general I can see why this would have the opposite effect. That’s true, and I don’t want to come off as a prude who is opposed to depictions of sex. It’s just that I, as someone who is generally uncomfortable with physical contact in the real world, would like to see better use of emotional… stuff (in addition to physical displays) in writing generally (not just in games), since that's what really hooks me personally. |
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