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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 13, 2018 19:31:15 GMT
I'm posting this here because the question transcends all BioWare IP's. Casey's recent comments about romance suggest that there's an expectation that a romance has a sex scene, and that's not what they are doing. variety.com/2018/gaming/features/biowares-casey-hudson-interview-1202842336/So, in the days of the Witcher III and even Assassins Creed Odyssey, can a game have romance without sex? Is it about the characters or is just 'let's ban g, ok'? Past character romances like Josie (DAI) and Suvi (MEA) have got lukewarm reactions from some simply for that character not getting their kit off. So what is the place of sex scenes in BioWare games vs. the place of romance and relationships?
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Post by mousestalker on Jun 13, 2018 19:44:10 GMT
So, in the days of the Witcher III and even Assassins Creed Odyssey, can a game have romance without sex? Is it about the characters or is just 'let's ban, ok'? There is something ominous when a mod's typo is "let's ban, ok" On the main point, I get what he is saying. Heaven knows there are plenty of sources for pr0n on the Internet. And I'm sure the modeling that makes it happen in a Bioware game is probably both tedious and disturbing. As long as they keep the emotional content I am very much cool with a 'fade to black' for the steamy bits.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 13, 2018 19:47:13 GMT
There is something ominous when a mod's typo is "let's ban, ok" Very Freudian , I'll fix it in the original, but leave it in your quote to maintain the sense.
I'm sure the modeling that makes it happen in a Bioware game is probably both tedious and disturbing. For Canadians particularly, I would have thought.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 20:07:02 GMT
I remember cringing and feeling rather awkward when Cora was suddenly naked in MEA. There hasn't been one sex scene that was worth the effort imo, other than Dorian's glorious bottom of course. I love the flirting and the build up to the romances, that's what hits me in the feels not the sex itself. My best memories of the ME and DA romances are everything but the sex tbh. It's always weird. So my vote is always fade to black. Leave the development time for other things like an extra romantic cutscene. Besides, imagination is far spicier than reality after all.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jun 13, 2018 20:25:10 GMT
The single most awkward moment in my gaming history was when I discovered my wife was watching my computer monitor over my shoulder in the Iron Bull scene where Cassandra, Josie and Cullen walk in and my female qunari Inquisitor's breasts were on full display Having said that; Does romance need to mean sex scene? No, don't think so. In the age of "The Witcher 3" etc...should it? Maybe? But no, don't think so. To be a bit pedantic, though - I think only DA:O had "sex" scenes. Fully clothed and creepy as f**k. DA2 had "foreplay" and post-coital. I think DA:I was exclusively post-sex, wasn't it...? Although Sera's could be seen as mid-session. And the post-sex scenes are where they can easily apply nuance and character development (or at least relationship development), so those scenes should remain. I don't know how the rest of the world does it, but in my experience, sex is always conducted without clothing. So nudity makes sense. It could also take place as characters are getting dressed afterwards, so no nudity also works. I think Kingdom Come Deliverance has a fairly explicit sex scene in it. I don't know that I'd want that. I certainly don't want a return to Origins style - whether clothed or not. For me, the Inquisition scenes were pretty much spot on. I didn't mind that Josie didn't take her clothes off. And I didn't mind that Sera, Cassandra and a female Inquisitor with Bull and Blackwall did. MEA....well.... The scene I saw - Peebee - was imaginative...and I certainly wasn't offended by it, but it went about as far as I'd want that sort of thing to go.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 20:38:31 GMT
The single most awkward moment in my gaming history was when I discovered my wife was watching my computer monitor over my shoulder in the Iron Bull scene where Cassandra, Josie and Cullen walk in and my female qunari Inquisitor's breasts were on full display Having said that; Does romance need to mean sex scene? No, don't think so. In the age of "The Witcher 3" etc...should it? Maybe? But no, don't think so. To be a bit pedantic, though - I think only DA:O had "sex" scenes. Fully clothed and creepy as f**k. DA2 had "foreplay" and post-coital. I think DA:I was exclusively post-sex, wasn't it...? Although Sera's could be seen as mid-session. And the post-sex scenes are where they can easily apply nuance and character development (or at least relationship development), so those scenes should remain. I don't know how the rest of the world does it, but in my experience, sex is always conducted without clothing. So nudity makes sense. It could also take place as characters are getting dressed afterwards, so no nudity also works. I think Kingdom Come Deliverance has a fairly explicit sex scene in it. I don't know that I'd want that. I certainly don't want a return to Origins style - whether clothed or not. For me, the Inquisition scenes were pretty much spot on. I didn't mind that Josie didn't take her clothes off. And I didn't mind that Sera, Cassandra and a female Inquisitor with Bull and Blackwall did. MEA....well.... The scene I saw - Peebee - was imaginative...and I certainly wasn't offended by it, but it went about as far as I'd want that sort of thing to go. Oh my, that would have been an awkward conversation with your wife... The DAO sex scenes are the absolute worst, they're so ridiculous. Especially when my female elf and Leliana had sex in a rather heterosexual kind of a way. Made me wonder what the heck they were up to, unless Leliana was carrying some imaginative toys in her backpack.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 13, 2018 21:11:14 GMT
Oh my, that would have been an awkward conversation with your wife... It's happened to me with my daughters... Thay all play BioWare games now, so they understand, but there are some scenes that Dad would prefer to play alone.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 21:14:45 GMT
Oh my, that would have been an awkward conversation with your wife... It's happened to me with my daughters... Thay all play BioWare games now, so they understand, but there are some scenes that Dad would prefer to play alone. Iron Bull lying naked on a bed....that would be an interesting father/daughter conversation. You'll just have to be creative to get your gaming fix.
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Post by Shinobu on Jun 14, 2018 3:38:18 GMT
Looking back I think I prefer the ME1 scenes: nudity with a tasteful fade to black. Sex and showering in bras in DAO and ME3 was silly, heaving butts in MEA a little more than I wanted to see.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 14, 2018 6:07:21 GMT
heaving butts in MEA a little more than I wanted to see. There were so fine butts though. Jaal, in particular, has some muscles...
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Post by Shinobu on Jun 14, 2018 17:25:51 GMT
I don't mind seeing bare butts when they're just standing there or walking away. It's the simulated sex motion (found in PeeBee and Cora's sex scenes) that I personally find awkward.
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Post by jediguardian on Jun 15, 2018 5:38:12 GMT
If I want to see sex scene, I will go watch some gay porn not open the game and click option to have sex with someone.
I want to see scene that show the ralationship between two character. How they develop their feeling, how they care for each other. Some intimate would be great but not sex scene.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 15, 2018 10:06:03 GMT
A good romance doesn't really need a sex scene.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 15, 2018 14:57:16 GMT
Philosophical discussion aside, I read this as they don't want to deal with "romance crazies" anymore. I predict ambiguous interactions that can be passed off as almost anything. Makes sense from one point of view- why bother putting in all the time for content that will just be torn apart for what it shows or doesn't show in terms of who's banging who or what.
Hopefully ambiguous doesn't become bland and forgettable. There's a subtle line there. I think characters can be interesting and get the player invested without making the 3d models bump uglies or explicitly saying that they will. But romances are also ez-mode for getting you interested in what that dialogue wheel will bring, and thus what happens next. They've been riding ez-mode for a while. Hopefully they can still pull this off without it.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 15, 2018 15:31:56 GMT
Philosophical discussion aside, I read this as they don't want to deal with "romance crazies" anymore. I predict ambiguous interactions that can be passed off as almost anything. Makes sense from one point of view- why bother putting in all the time for content that will just be torn apart for what it shows or doesn't show in terms of who's banging who or what. Hopefully ambiguous doesn't become bland and forgettable. There's a subtle line there. I think characters can be interesting and get the player invested without making the 3d models bump uglies or explicitly saying that they will. But romances are also ez-mode for getting you interested in what that dialogue wheel will bring, and thus what happens next. They've been riding ez-mode for a while. Hopefully they can still pull this off without it. I bet my ass on it that it is a great relief for them not to have to care about all the silly stuff. Is like throwing ballast overboard.
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Post by mousestalker on Jun 15, 2018 15:40:51 GMT
Philosophical discussion aside, I read this as they don't want to deal with "romance crazies" anymore. We prefer to be called 'romance enthusiasts'. Just FYI.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 21:26:37 GMT
Philosophical discussion aside, I read this as they don't want to deal with "romance crazies" anymore. We prefer to be called 'romance enthusiasts'. Just FYI. No no no Mousey, when he says 'romance crazies' he's referring to all those other people over there. Not us.
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Post by Fogg on Jun 15, 2018 22:28:14 GMT
In BioWare games the sex scene is often a one time 'prize' for when you pressed all the right dialogue options. That makes it too much of a very special goal to work towards to. It's more seduction than a relationship. It's the American cinema approach. Lots of killing and one 'omg I saw a nipple' sex scene. Witcher is more European cinema (or hbo series). Nudity and sex are all around, just like in real life. I think it's more natural that way and less of a big 'omg omg' thing.
I understand if you choose to skip it. You want parents giving Anthem to their teens on christmas. You want the 15 million copies sold online shooter crowd, not the 3 million copies sold rpg crowd. Some flirting is more than enough, let fanfic take care of the rest (Overwatch...). At the same time, Grand Theft Auto shows that some nudity doesn't have to affect sales.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 16, 2018 2:55:10 GMT
No, a romance does not need a sex scene. Sex =/= Romance. There are romantic relationships between people that do not involve sex, and sexual relationships between people that do not involve romance. The characters you listed Suvi and Josephine are my favorite romances in the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series, and in the Josephine's case my favorite of all Bioware if not video game romances, and like you mentioned they don't involve sex. In fact them having at least the opportunity to be seen as nonsexual in the relationship is a notable part of why I like those romances so much. Hopefully in the future they will have more romances that are explicitly not sexual.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 16, 2018 15:13:23 GMT
Romance=/= sex Sex=/= romance.
They CAN, and often do, go together. But they are separate issues.
I mean, there's plenty of sex and nudity in the Witcher games. But how many of the women Geralt bangs is he actually in a "romance" with?
By the same token, there are plenty of love stories in movies, tv, books, and even games which do not have sex scenes. They either do not take place (because the relationship hasn't proceeded that far yet), or they choose to wait for whatever reason, or perhaps it DID happen, but it occurred offscreen.
Sadly, I think too many of the romance crowd feel entitled to a sex scene, however awkwardly it may fit into the story.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 17, 2018 16:10:19 GMT
I mean, there's plenty of sex and nudity in the Witcher games. But how many of the women Geralt bangs is he actually in a "romance" with? Depending on your definition of "romance". Personally the question that matters to me more is whether something adds to the game, it doesn't have to be a classic love story to add something charming, entertaining, or plain fun to the game. And I'm even not referring to "yay boobies" (though that can be a part of it, and I don't see anything wrong with it, or sex in general). As an example, I'd use Shani in the "Hearts of Stone" expansion of TW3. There is no actual "romance" there as you would define it, it's just two friends meeting in a somewhat strange and funny set of circumstances, and those two friends can end up having sex. Personally I thought that the whole section of the game related to Shani and the event there was incredibly charming and heart-warming. The value it had wasn't directly related to "boobies!", but the fact that it did have nudity and sex definitely added to the value and immersion of the story. (in my opinion at least) Well, that's not my definition of "romance" More like "friends with benefits" Maybe it is "charming and entertaining" but it's still not a "romance" in my book, which only furthers my point that you can have sex and nudity without romance. And again, you can have romance without nudity and sex. One does not equal the other.
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Post by Shinobu on Jun 18, 2018 3:22:20 GMT
Contrary to what people said above, I think the Cora scene in ME:A was very well done. (possibly the only high-quality cutscene in that game, ironically enough...) I should have been clearer. I liked Cora's scene quite a bit, but could have done without the last 3 seconds of pelvic thrusting.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 19, 2018 0:41:41 GMT
Well, that's not my definition of "romance" More like "friends with benefits" Maybe it is "charming and entertaining" but it's still not a "romance" in my book, which only furthers my point that you can have sex and nudity without romance. And again, you can have romance without nudity and sex. One does not equal the other. That's semantics. My point was that it adds to the game, and what it adds is close enough to "romance" to be called that.My point was NOT whether it adds to the game. My point is sex=/=romance and romance=/=sex. You can have one without the other.
And like I said, that is NOT what I would call a romance. Romance, to me is far deeper (and more rare) than friendship.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 3:05:05 GMT
Here's what I don't get. Anthem is a fucking action rpg game with a focus on online co-op and the rpg elements taking a backseat. Why is romance even being talked about with regards to it? It really shouldn't be a thing in this particular game, let that creative time go to fleshing out the gameplay and mission content.
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Post by Lavochkin on Jun 20, 2018 3:38:18 GMT
Here's what I don't get. Anthem is a fucking action rpg game with a focus on online co-op and the rpg elements taking a backseat. Why is romance even being talked about with regards to it? It really shouldn't be a thing in this particular game, let that creative time go to fleshing out the gameplay and mission content. Maybe the co-op involves players romancing each other? s19.postimg.cc/w3zmdxd4z/codextrollface.png
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