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Post by sageoflife on Dec 28, 2019 5:58:48 GMT
You misunderstand. Tranquility should be taken off the table entirely. The Harrowing would be optional, but anyone who has not passed it would not be allowed outside the Circle/College without an escort. The Harrowing is supposed to be a test of a mage's ability to withstand possession, after all. Oh. Yeah, that does make a lot more sense, but I'm not sure allowing non-Harrowed mages out of the Circle with an escort is entirely safe. After all, Amelia turned into an abomination with templars right there to stop her, and she killed them, her parents, and somewhere in the ballpark of sixty or sixtyfive other people. For that matter, I'm not sure having apprentices who simply can't pass the Harrowing in the Circle long after the current system would have forced them to either fail the Harrowing or turn Tranquil is safe either. Just because I see the logic in locking mages up with other mages, who at least have a chance of fighting off an abomination, doesn't mean I want to force them to unduly risk their own lives by locking them up with mages who are at a high-risk of turning. I got that you think Tranquility should be off the table entirely, but I'm not sure that's an option. Even the rebel mage leaflet the Circle distributes in Inquisition doesn't say that Tranquility should be off the table entirely: merely that the use of it as a punishment is one of the things they're rebelling against. I get that it's a harsh thing to do, but the situation is harsh too.But that's not the real problem, according to Meredith. She specifically mentioned that their parents were afraid she'd fail the Harrowing. Or, she didn't say "Harrowing," but it's clear that's what she was talking about. So unless whatever solution Thedas comes up with removes the Harrowing, I don't think it would address this problem, and how many more problems do you open up by doing that? And ultimately, how sure are we that Amelia herself wouldn't have been one of those problems either way? What I'm getting at is that, unlike Connor, I don't think the system could have been altered to stop Amelia from becoming a monster. The big tragedy of the magic system in Thedas is that some people are just never going to be safe, and unless Meredith was misrepresenting the situation, Amelia was one of them. Mages fear Tranquility more than death, and if it's not taken off the table then it's unlikely that they will be able to trust the Chantry not to use it as a bludgeon again. There's a reason the rebel mages are outraged over the Inquisitor using it as a punishment, and that only a mage can get away with it. Ameridan saw the writing on the wall from the very beginning. Considering the effect of Tranquility on mages was discovered completely by accident, I can't help but think that using it in the Circle was a mistake from the very beginning. Besides that, it's actually extremely rare to hear about apprentices becoming abominations within the Circles themselves. We can argue all day long about what might have happened with Amelia in different circumstances, but the situation as it actually happened was caused by her fear of the Templars. As the Loyalists and the Templars themselves keep saying, the Order is there to protect mages, and yet the very sight of them has been known to drive mages into the arms of a demon. The Templars' collective unwillingness to examine why mages are so terrified of them is one of the reasons the Circle failed, and Meredith herself is hardly a reliable source given her state of mend when she tells Hawke about Amelia.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Dec 28, 2019 6:43:18 GMT
Oh. Yeah, that does make a lot more sense, but I'm not sure allowing non-Harrowed mages out of the Circle with an escort is entirely safe. After all, Amelia turned into an abomination with templars right there to stop her, and she killed them, her parents, and somewhere in the ballpark of sixty or sixtyfive other people. For that matter, I'm not sure having apprentices who simply can't pass the Harrowing in the Circle long after the current system would have forced them to either fail the Harrowing or turn Tranquil is safe either. Just because I see the logic in locking mages up with other mages, who at least have a chance of fighting off an abomination, doesn't mean I want to force them to unduly risk their own lives by locking them up with mages who are at a high-risk of turning. I got that you think Tranquility should be off the table entirely, but I'm not sure that's an option. Even the rebel mage leaflet the Circle distributes in Inquisition doesn't say that Tranquility should be off the table entirely: merely that the use of it as a punishment is one of the things they're rebelling against. I get that it's a harsh thing to do, but the situation is harsh too.But that's not the real problem, according to Meredith. She specifically mentioned that their parents were afraid she'd fail the Harrowing. Or, she didn't say "Harrowing," but it's clear that's what she was talking about. So unless whatever solution Thedas comes up with removes the Harrowing, I don't think it would address this problem, and how many more problems do you open up by doing that? And ultimately, how sure are we that Amelia herself wouldn't have been one of those problems either way? What I'm getting at is that, unlike Connor, I don't think the system could have been altered to stop Amelia from becoming a monster. The big tragedy of the magic system in Thedas is that some people are just never going to be safe, and unless Meredith was misrepresenting the situation, Amelia was one of them. Mages fear Tranquility more than death, and if it's not taken off the table then it's unlikely that they will be able to trust the Chantry not to use it as a bludgeon again. There's a reason the rebel mages are outraged over the Inquisitor using it as a punishment, and that only a mage can get away with it. Ameridan saw the writing on the wall from the very beginning. Considering the effect of Tranquility on mages was discovered completely by accident, I can't help but think that using it in the Circle was a mistake from the very beginning. But what's the alternative to Tranquility, if an apprentice just is not safe to have around? The only practical one I've ever heard of is death, and while you argue that mages prefer that, that doesn't seem to be entirely true. At least two of the Codexes on Tranquility involve Tranquil who signed up for it rather than die. I know Ameridan was opposed to granting the Circles the ability to Tranquilize apprentices, because he saw before anyone else did that the Rite could be abused. But the rest of the Inquisition gave the Rite to the Circles anyway, as a last resort for apprentices who simply can't or simply won't control their magic, so that those apprentices wouldn't have to be executed. And while I've heard several times that Ameridan didn't think that it was safe to give the Circles the Rite, nobody's ever told me that he accused the rest of the Inquisition of seeing a problem that wasn't there, or what he thought they should do instead.Are we sure that the option of rendering apprentices Tranquil isn't the reason why? But she's still the only source we have, apart from WoT. And you said that while WoT gives additional information, it doesn't contradict anything she says. And since you're using Amelia as an argument against the way the Circle did things, don't you think it might be relevant if she just wasn't safe to have around no matter what the system was?
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 28, 2019 7:31:29 GMT
Mages fear Tranquility more than death, and if it's not taken off the table then it's unlikely that they will be able to trust the Chantry not to use it as a bludgeon again. There's a reason the rebel mages are outraged over the Inquisitor using it as a punishment, and that only a mage can get away with it. Ameridan saw the writing on the wall from the very beginning. Considering the effect of Tranquility on mages was discovered completely by accident, I can't help but think that using it in the Circle was a mistake from the very beginning. But what's the alternative to Tranquility, if an apprentice just is not safe to have around? The only practical one I've ever heard of is death, and while you argue that mages prefer that, that doesn't seem to be entirely true. At least two of the Codexes on Tranquility involve Tranquil who signed up for it rather than die. I know Ameridan was opposed to granting the Circles the ability to Tranquilize apprentices, because he saw before anyone else did that the Rite could be abused. But the rest of the Inquisition gave the Rite to the Circles anyway, as a last resort for apprentices who simply can't or simply won't control their magic, so that those apprentices wouldn't have to be executed. And while I've heard several times that Ameridan didn't think that it was safe to give the Circles the Rite, nobody's ever told me that he accused the rest of the Inquisition of seeing a problem that wasn't there, or what he thought they should do instead.Are we sure that the option of rendering apprentices Tranquil isn't the reason why?But she's still the only source we have, apart from WoT. And you said that while WoT gives additional information, it doesn't contradict anything she says. And since you're using Amelia as an argument against the way the Circle did things, don't you think it might be relevant if she just wasn't safe to have around no matter what the system was? The avaar and the Dalish have very few incidents of abominations, and that's without the Rite, so it's unlikely to be preventing abominations in the Circle. Furthermore, we can infer from the statement that Bethany's Harrowing was "long-overdue" when she would have been nineteen-twenty that mages probably go through the Harrowing in their late teens normally. Assume that magic manifests at the average age of eight or so, then that's a roughly ten year opportunity for those apprentices to be possessed. If demonic possession was really such a high risk for un-Harrowed mages, I would expect to hear about more incidents of possession among mages too young to go through it. I find it more likely that it's because those children are receiving training and support in how to resist demons, which Connor and Amelia did not get due to their parents' fears. Sure, we have a couple codex entries about mages choosing Tranquility. We also have two mages who had it reversed and directly chose death when faced with becoming Tranquil again. If the Seekers had never discovered what Tranquility did to mages, they never would have started using it outside their initiation. The Circle would have had to find some way to do without it, so they can do that once Tranquility is taken off the table. The Chantry has already demonstrated that they can't be trusted not to misuse it. Even Irving, who ran the most permissive Circle in Southern Thedas, sad that the Chantry would happily make all mages Tranquil. He didn't come to that conclusion from nowhere. Even Meredith never actually describes Amelia as having any real problems prior to becoming an abomination. She just lies by omission about that happening when the Templars showed up, since that detail is so damning toward her methods. With support and training, it's probable that Amelia never would have been possessed, but anything besides what actually happened is pure speculation.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Dec 28, 2019 8:15:04 GMT
But what's the alternative to Tranquility, if an apprentice just is not safe to have around? The only practical one I've ever heard of is death, and while you argue that mages prefer that, that doesn't seem to be entirely true. At least two of the Codexes on Tranquility involve Tranquil who signed up for it rather than die. I know Ameridan was opposed to granting the Circles the ability to Tranquilize apprentices, because he saw before anyone else did that the Rite could be abused. But the rest of the Inquisition gave the Rite to the Circles anyway, as a last resort for apprentices who simply can't or simply won't control their magic, so that those apprentices wouldn't have to be executed. And while I've heard several times that Ameridan didn't think that it was safe to give the Circles the Rite, nobody's ever told me that he accused the rest of the Inquisition of seeing a problem that wasn't there, or what he thought they should do instead.Are we sure that the option of rendering apprentices Tranquil isn't the reason why?But she's still the only source we have, apart from WoT. And you said that while WoT gives additional information, it doesn't contradict anything she says. And since you're using Amelia as an argument against the way the Circle did things, don't you think it might be relevant if she just wasn't safe to have around no matter what the system was? The avaar and the Dalish have very few incidents of abominations, and that's without the Rite, so it's unlikely to be preventing abominations in the Circle. We aren't shown how the Dalish handle the mages who the Circles would have chosen to make Tranquil, but the Avaar have spirits kill them. So the Avaar, at least, don't have an alternative to Tranquility other than death.Yeah, and the Circle does that too, when the kid actually shows up for training. But it's not always enough. The thing about Tranquility is that it's not Plan A. Most mages don't need it, and the mages and templars are supposed to work to avoid using it. But that's not always possible. From all we've seen, sometimes it really comes down to whether they Tranquil the apprentice, kill the apprentice, or just wait and see if they lose themselves to a demon.But they were perfectly content, until the state was reversed. Right? Tranquil don't seem to be horrified by the experience except in retrospect. And since reversing Tranquility apparently sends the former-Tranquil's emotions haywire, it's not entirely clear how much of that fear is natural or rational.But because Tranquility was on the table, they never did find another way to handle the apprentices who just could not learn to cope. And when Divine Justinia ordered Pharamond to find one, he couldn't. So all of that means that Southern Thedas doesn't have an alternative to either killing or Tranquiling a failing apprentice yet. So unless you're sure that killing an apprentice who can't be saved is an improvement, and are okay with choosing that even for mages who would have taken Tranquility instead of death, I'm not sure Tranquility can be shelved yet. And what evidence do we have that a way out of that dilemma can be found at all?Then supposing the Chantry wasn't involved? What if the College started doing it? Would you still disapprove? Where is the "probable" coming from? I admit it's possible, since our only evidence Amelia was doomed is Meredith saying their parents didn't think she could, but "probable" strikes me as a stretch.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 28, 2019 8:35:44 GMT
The avaar and the Dalish have very few incidents of abominations, and that's without the Rite, so it's unlikely to be preventing abominations in the Circle. We aren't shown how the Dalish handle the mages who the Circles would have chosen to make Tranquil, but the Avaar have spirits kill them. So the Avaar, at least, don't have an alternative to Tranquility other than death.Yeah, and the Circle does that too, when the kid actually shows up for training. But it's not always enough. The thing about Tranquility is that it's not Plan A. Most mages don't need it, and the mages and templars are supposed to work to avoid using it. But that's not always possible. From all we've seen, sometimes it really comes down to whether they Tranquil the apprentice, kill the apprentice, or just wait and see if they lose themselves to a demon.But they were perfectly content, until the state was reversed. Right? Tranquil don't seem to be horrified by the experience except in retrospect. And since reversing Tranquility apparently sends the former-Tranquil's emotions haywire, it's not entirely clear how much of that fear is natural or rational.But because Tranquility was on the table, they never did find another way to handle the apprentices who just could not learn to cope. And when Divine Justinia ordered Pharamond to find one, he couldn't. So all of that means that Southern Thedas doesn't have an alternative to either killing or Tranquiling a failing apprentice yet. So unless you're sure that killing an apprentice who can't be saved is an improvement, and are okay with choosing that even for mages who would have taken Tranquility instead of death, I'm not sure Tranquility can be shelved yet. And what evidence do we have that a way out of that dilemma can be found at all?Then supposing the Chantry wasn't involved? What if the College started doing it? Would you still disapprove?Where is the "probable" coming from? I admit it's possible, since our only evidence Amelia was doomed is Meredith saying their parents didn't think she could, but "probable" strikes me as a stretch. The augur states that it is very rare for a spirit to have to kill its host. Among the Dalish, all mages are apprenticed to the Keeper, and based on what Merril says abominations are also extremely rare, with the clan as a whole responsible for killing them. And as previously discussed, when a child doesn't show up for training it's because the structure of the system has left them and their parents so terrified that it actively prevents them from receiving the training they need. Maybe Tranquility wasn't always Plan A, but by the time the system finally collapsed on itself the threshold had been lowered so much that we really have no good baseline for how weak a mage needs to be for Tranquility to be on the table. That's like saying someone that's received a lobotomy isn't really suffering because they've been stripped of their ability to realize that they are. Karl and Pharamond are both horrified by what they experienced. That speaks for itself and at this point it really seems like you're only arguing for the sake of arguing. We are shown that the vast majority of mages find death preferable to Tranquility, with very few exceptions. If they think death is better used as a last resort then that strikes me as better than letting the Templars and the Chantry use it as a bludgeon again, while claiming they're being "kind". Even when one of their own uses it, the mages in the Inquisition are on the verge of revolt, and Dorian says that the Rite is abused plenty in Tevinter as well. It doesn't seem like anyone can be trusted with it except for making new Seekers. Meredith has been blatantly ignoring the Chantry's laws about Tranquility for years. She's not a reliable source on whether someone can handle their magic. It's probable because the number of un-Harrowed mages both in and out of the Circle becoming abominations when they're given proper training is so low.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Dec 28, 2019 10:25:34 GMT
The augur states that it is very rare for a spirit to have to kill its host. And yet it happens. Because sometimes, it's either that or Tranquility. I'm not saying either should become common practice. I'm saying that sometimes, it really is one or the other.And sometimes they fail, and the clan dies out. If they don't have some kind of prevention system, that's unwise of them.Except that you haven't proved the system is always the problem. With Connor you have an argument. With Amelia, the little evidence we have, weak as it is, suggests that she was just screwed and that her parents couldn't accept that. I grant that Meredith isn't the best source, but she's one of the two sources we have, and you already said WoT doesn't actually contradict her. So where are you getting your conclusion that Meredith was wrong?But how does that help us figure out whether or not it's needed at all?Not really. A lobotomy removes your ability to consciously realize you're suffering. (Maybe? I don't know if we can actually ask a lobotomized person what that's like.) Tranquility removes your ability to care that you're suffering, or at least mutes the emotional response to it. So if you don't really care that you're suffering, are you really suffering?They're horrified after the fact. The Tranquil don't seem to care while they're Tranquil. Are you entirely sure that Tranquility is torture? Or is it possible that the only torture in Tranquility is reversing it?Well, the reason I'm still arguing the original argument (the whole "is Amelia the system's fault" thing) is that I don't think you've proven your point. But new arguments do seem to pop up every time we turn around. I've lost count of how many arguments we're having right now.But where is your source for that? Where is your source for mages not wanting Tranquility on the table to prevent abominations? You've shown that they don't want it abused, but where is your source that they don't want it used? And even if the vast majority of mages would take death over Tranquility, why is that an argument for killing the very few mages who both need to either die or become Tranquil, and would take Tranquility over death? Well, when you get that War Table mission, the mages seem to be revolting against the idea of Tranquility as punishment. It's possible to get it for Tranquiling Calpernia's master to help him deal with the agonizing binding spell he's under, but the phrasing of the mission prompt suggests either that the mages wrongly see it as a punishment, or that getting that mission at all is a glitch. But we already knew that the mage rebels don't like the use of Tranquility as a punishment, and I've already conceded that they're right not to. And since Tevinter's ruling class is already known to be corrupt and hypocritical, and to abuse every scrap of power they have, how are they evidence that nobody can be trusted with Tranquility? Show me an otherwise noble institution that lost its mind because Tranquility was open to them, and I'll concede you have an argument. But that's not what happened in Tevinter. But she's one of the two sources we have that cover this specific case. And the only other source doesn't contradict her on this, even though it does give information that weakens her general point. So I'm not sure general trends and noting her bias are enough to refute her. At the very least, they don't refute her strongly enough that you can definitively assign blame to the templars despite her, which just leads back to my original point: I don't think you have enough evidence to definitively blame the templars for Amelia, the way you seem to still be doing.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 28, 2019 11:37:17 GMT
The augur states that it is very rare for a spirit to have to kill its host. And yet it happens. Because sometimes, it's either that or Tranquility. I'm not saying either should become common practice. I'm saying that sometimes, it really is one or the other.And sometimes they fail, and the clan dies out. If they don't have some kind of prevention system, that's unwise of them.Except that you haven't proved the system is always the problem. With Connor you have an argument. With Amelia, the little evidence we have, weak as it is, suggests that she was just screwed and that her parents couldn't accept that. I grant that Meredith isn't the best source, but she's one of the two sources we have, and you already said WoT doesn't actually contradict her. So where are you getting your conclusion that Meredith was wrong?But how does that help us figure out whether or not it's needed at all?Not really. A lobotomy removes your ability to consciously realize you're suffering. (Maybe? I don't know if we can actually ask a lobotomized person what that's like.) Tranquility removes your ability to care that you're suffering, or at least mutes the emotional response to it. So if you don't really care that you're suffering, are you really suffering?They're horrified after the fact. The Tranquil don't seem to care while they're Tranquil. Are you entirely sure that Tranquility is torture? Or is it possible that the only torture in Tranquility is reversing it?Well, the reason I'm still arguing the original argument (the whole "is Amelia the system's fault" thing) is that I don't think you've proven your point. But new arguments do seem to pop up every time we turn around. I've lost count of how many arguments we're having right now.But where is your source for that? Where is your source for mages not wanting Tranquility on the table to prevent abominations? You've shown that they don't want it abused, but where is your source that they don't want it used? And even if the vast majority of mages would take death over Tranquility, why is that an argument for killing the very few mages who both need to either die or become Tranquil, and would take Tranquility over death? Well, when you get that War Table mission, the mages seem to be revolting against the idea of Tranquility as punishment. It's possible to get it for Tranquiling Calpernia's master to help him deal with the agonizing binding spell he's under, but the phrasing of the mission prompt suggests either that the mages wrongly see it as a punishment, or that getting that mission at all is a glitch. But we already knew that the mage rebels don't like the use of Tranquility as a punishment, and I've already conceded that they're right not to. And since Tevinter's ruling class is already known to be corrupt and hypocritical, and to abuse every scrap of power they have, how are they evidence that nobody can be trusted with Tranquility? Show me an otherwise noble institution that lost its mind because Tranquility was open to them, and I'll concede you have an argument. But that's not what happened in Tevinter.But she's one of the two sources we have that cover this specific case. And the only other source doesn't contradict her on this, even though it does give information that weakens her general point. So I'm not sure general trends and noting her bias are enough to refute her. At the very least, they don't refute her strongly enough that you can definitively assign blame to the templars despite her, which just leads back to my original point: I don't think you have enough evidence to definitively blame the templars for Amelia, the way you seem to still be doing. I've never claimed that's it not one or the other, just that Tranquility has been grossly abused and that the vast majority of mages find death preferable. How many Dalish clans have we heard died out because their Keeper became an abomination? Merril says it happens, but says nothing about how frequently it does. Considering the Dalish predate the Circle and yet still maintain a self-sustaining population, it probably doesn't happen often. I've concluded that Meredith was wrong because of her well-known instability and the fact that Amelia never had proper training or support. But let's say you're right and Amelia would have failed anyway. If her parents hadn't been so terrified of being permanently separated from her, she would have been somewhere that she could be dealt with before causing any damage. That may require her death, but such things should be decided on a case-by-case basis. Regardless of what would have happened to her, the damage she caused can ultimately be traced back to a system that gives parents incentives to prevent their children from getting training. The problem is we don't know if Tranquility is truly needed. That's squarely the result of the Chantry apparently forgetting what it was originally for and turning into a bludgeon. I think Tranquility should be done away with entirely outside of consenting Seeker initiates, but at the bare minimum it needs to be taken off the table until a threshold can be established. Karl directly describes what he experienced. He and Pharamond both found death preferable to renewed Tranquility. Arguing about something we heard from the horse's mouth is just being contrary for the sake of it. If Tranquility is kept, what is preventing it from being used as a bludgeon again? The Seekers promised that it wouldn't when the Circles first formed, and look how that ended up. At that time even death was supposed to come before Tranquility. Remember Irving's line about the Chantry being happy to make all mages Tranquil if they could get away with it. It's obvious that the mages only tolerate the Rite existing because of the level of control the Chantry has over them. And have you forgotten about Uldred? Do you think someone like him wouldn't abuse the Rite to get rid of his rivals or other liabilities if he could? It's likely he did exactly that indirectly through his "talent" of sniffing out blood mages. Look, all of your arguments for what happened to Amelia are based purely on speculation, whereas I am citing the situation as is described as actually happening, which is that she accepted possession because she was terrified of the Templars, an extremely important detail that Meredith omitted. That's the information we have to go one, not your speculations about what could have been.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 28, 2019 12:32:29 GMT
My point about Amelia is that, like Connor, her possession was ultimately a result of her parents not wanting to lose her. Create a system where parents and children are not denied all contact for the rest of their lives, and the prospect of being taken by the Templars is no longer so terrifying, which will minimize instances where the mere sight of a Templar on a person's doorstep results in an abomination. In the case of Amelia, the fear of Meredith's parents didn't seem to be that they would never see their daughter again but rather that she was very unlikely to survive going to the Circle at all and since WoT claims that she was sent into an unreasoning panic just for being in unfamiliar surroundings, they were probably right. In this situation, I am not sure what, short of tutoring at home, could have been done to prevent the tragedy that happening. And, if she was tutored at home, there's still the very real possibility of her becoming an Abomination in her village.
Furthermore, are we so sure that the reason parents don't keep in contact with their mage kids is because of the rules of the Circle rather than the nature of Thedas? For one, in Kirkwall, Arianni visits Feynriel and she is an elf which tells us that the option doesn't exist just for nobles. It could be that most parents who do have mage kids lose contact because of either prejudice or lack of personal mobility due to living in a Medieval setting. They can't hope on the donkey cart every weekend and haul themselves half across Ferelden to go to Kinloch Hold. Tough, truthfully, I don't think even the setting itself has settled on how easy it is to visit mage at the Circle. In the very same city where Arianni visits Feynriel, Emile hasn't seen his parents since he was six despite the fact that Dulci seems exactly the type of person to obsessively mother him (although it's possible she cut off all contact to avoid a scandal)
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Post by Mithras on Dec 28, 2019 12:38:51 GMT
Honestly, I think that, short of having Wynne living at her home for the foreseeable future, Amelia was screwed whatever happened. If we want to blame someone on that one, might as well be the Maker.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 28, 2019 12:42:52 GMT
My point about Amelia is that, like Connor, her possession was ultimately a result of her parents not wanting to lose her. Create a system where parents and children are not denied all contact for the rest of their lives, and the prospect of being taken by the Templars is no longer so terrifying, which will minimize instances where the mere sight of a Templar on a person's doorstep results in an abomination. In the case of Amelia, the fear of Meredith's parents didn't seem to be that they would never see their daughter again but rather that she was very unlikely to survive going to the Circle at all and since WoT claims that she was sent into an unreasoning panic just for being in unfamiliar surroundings, they were probably right. In this situation, I am not sure what, short of tutoring at home, could have been done to prevent the tragedy that happening. And, if she was tutored at home, there's still the very real possibility of her becoming an Abomination in her village.
Furthermore, are we so sure that the reason parents don't keep in contact with their mage kids is because of the rules of the Circle rather than the nature of Thedas? For one, in Kirkwall, Arianni visits Feynriel and she is an elf which tells us that the option doesn't exist just for nobles. It could be that most parents who do have mage kids lose contact because of either prejudice or lack of personal mobility due to living in a Medieval setting. They can't hope on the donkey cart every weekend and haul themselves half across Ferelden to go to Kinloch Hold. Tough, truthfully, I don't think even the setting itself has settled on how easy it is to visit mage at the Circle. In the very same city where Arianni visits Feynriel, Emile hasn't seen his parents since he was six despite the fact that Dulci seems exactly the type of person to obsessively mother him (although it's possible she cut off all contact to avoid a scandal)
Her adjustment period probably would have been more difficult than the average apprentice's, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have been manageable if handled properly. Unfortunately the system was not conducive to that. Also, I've played through the second game multiple times and I'm pretty sure Feynriel never actually went to the Circle. Thrask was trying to get him there peacefully so his more violent coworkers wouldn't get involved. Also, while regular visits are probably not an option, Thedas does have a postal system.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 28, 2019 12:51:24 GMT
Her adjustment period probably would have been more difficult than the average apprentice's, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have been manageable if handled properly. Unfortunately the system was not conducive to that. How was the system not conducive to her well being in this situation? It's not like Amelia was sent to the Circle, requested multiple times to just visit her family once and was denied. All they did was try and pick her up. It's possible that she could have adjusted but she would have to have tried, at least.
Hawke can send him to the Circle rather than the Dalish. Arianni visits but he is really angry with her and refuses to see her.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 28, 2019 12:56:59 GMT
Her adjustment period probably would have been more difficult than the average apprentice's, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have been manageable if handled properly. Unfortunately the system was not conducive to that. How was the system not conducive to her well being in this situation? It's not like Amelia was sent to the Circle, requested multiple times to just visit her family once and was denied. All they did was try and pick her up. It's possible that she could have adjusted but she would have to have tried, at least.
Hawke can send him to the Circle rather than the Dalish. Arianni visits but he is really angry with her and refuses to see her.
As I have already explained multiple times, the nature of the system is what made her parents terrified of letting her go. If not for that terror, she could have gotten the training she needed.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 28, 2019 13:05:11 GMT
As I have already explained multiple times, the nature of the system is what made her parents terrified of letting her go. If not for that terror, she could have gotten the training she needed. But what they were terrified of was the training that she needed. This isn't the nature of the system, it's the nature of being a mage.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 28, 2019 13:19:30 GMT
As I have already explained multiple times, the nature of the system is what made her parents terrified of letting her go. If not for that terror, she could have gotten the training she needed. But what they were terrified of was the training that she needed. This isn't the nature of the system, it's the nature of being a mage.
How would they even know what that training entails? They didn't want to lose their daughter.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 28, 2019 13:38:51 GMT
How would they even know what that training entails? They didn't want to lose their daughter. The World of Thedas specifically mentions they thought Amelia couldn't deal with a "Tower full of strangers", "constant watch and rigid rules" and even the Harrowing itself. How they knew about the last one, I don't know, but the others are reasonable predictions of what life at the Tower would be like. Their issue wasn't "We will never see our daughter again" but rather "our daughter is too weak to survive the Circle's training"
If a mage is too emotionally weak to even entertain the thought of being in unfamiliar surroundings, I don't see what can be done for that kid. Being allowed visits or letters wouldn't solve Amelia's weakness.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 28, 2019 13:46:20 GMT
How would they even know what that training entails? They didn't want to lose their daughter. The World of Thedas specifically mentions they thought Amelia couldn't deal with a "Tower full of strangers", "constant watch and rigid rules" and even the Harrowing itself. How they knew about the last one, I don't know, but the others are reasonable predictions of what life at the Tower would be like. Their issue wasn't "We will never see our daughter again" but rather "our daughter is too weak to survive the Circle's training"
If a mage is too emotionally weak to even entertain the thought of being in unfamiliar surroundings, I don't see what can be done for that kid. Being allowed visits or letters wouldn't solve Amelia's weakness.
The parents often think, that their little sweety can't survive the cruelty of life alone – they need their protective hand. Also, perhaps they heard about the Circle. That's not about Amelia's weakness. That's about what her parents thought. We know nothing about Amelia's strength/abilities.
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Post by Quickpaw on Dec 28, 2019 17:46:21 GMT
There's also the fact that the devs of DAII have outright admitted that the number of blood mages and crazy mages was sloppy writing on their part, due to DAII's INCREDIBLY rushed development cycle. It's why the Band of Three's codex entries feel so last-minute-slapdash; because they were. We can then infer that the frequency with with Hawke and co encountered corrupt mages is either non-canon to the series as a whole or something unique to them and their activities.
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Post by melbella on Dec 28, 2019 19:49:54 GMT
There's also the fact that the devs of DAII have outright admitted that the number of blood mages and crazy mages was sloppy writing on their part, On the other hand, the fact so many blood mages were running amok everywhere kind of kills the argument that Templars are so effective in combating them. Considering Meredith recruits Hawke to go after the escapees in Act 3 because her own troops failed so badly is yet more evidence. Templars are no more suited to fight blood mages or abominations than any other fighting force, but they sure want people to believe otherwise.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Dec 28, 2019 19:53:11 GMT
The World of Thedas specifically mentions they thought Amelia couldn't deal with a "Tower full of strangers", "constant watch and rigid rules" and even the Harrowing itself. How they knew about the last one, I don't know, but the others are reasonable predictions of what life at the Tower would be like. Their issue wasn't "We will never see our daughter again" but rather "our daughter is too weak to survive the Circle's training"
If a mage is too emotionally weak to even entertain the thought of being in unfamiliar surroundings, I don't see what can be done for that kid. Being allowed visits or letters wouldn't solve Amelia's weakness.
The parents often think, that their little sweety can't survive the cruelty of life alone – they need their protective hand. Also, perhaps they heard about the Circle. That's not about Amelia's weakness. That's about what her parents thought. We know nothing about Amelia's strength/abilities. I read the screencap Mithras posted, and I think we know enough about Amelia to say that she was just screwed. She went into a wild-eyed panic at the thought of unfamiliar surroundings. I don't know if there's any setting where that's a good combination with magical powers, and given that this setting's magic system is designed to create tragic monsters... well, what sort of training regimen can be designed to make this not a perfect recipe for one?
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Post by Catilina on Dec 28, 2019 21:04:26 GMT
The parents often think, that their little sweety can't survive the cruelty of life alone – they need their protective hand. Also, perhaps they heard about the Circle. That's not about Amelia's weakness. That's about what her parents thought. We know nothing about Amelia's strength/abilities. I read the screencap Mithras posted, and I think we know enough about Amelia to say that she was just screwed. She went into a wild-eyed panic at the thought of unfamiliar surroundings. I don't know if there's any setting where that's a good combination with magical powers, and given that this setting's magic system is designed to create tragic monsters... well, what sort of training regimen can be designed to make this not a perfect recipe for one? To learn her abilities without fear. Training but not in a prison. A prison not the best place to learn frightened children. The system caused her problems. Just like Connor's, and who knows how many others'.
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 28, 2019 21:16:55 GMT
If you don't care that your own behavior is weakening your argument, that's your problem. The fact that you have resorted to trolling shows nothing except that you are aware that your argument has failed. I've been discussing your words this entire time. You're just claiming otherwise because you discovered that your argument isn't nearly as strong as you thought, so now you're trying to save face by accusing me of not listening. Isolde was a noble. She would have known whether she would have been able to leverage that to maintain contact, and she clearly thought that she wouldn't. Ten years later, Connor says nothing to indicate that he has been able to maintain ties with his family. He would have gotten the training he needed if the Circle was structured differently. The illegal slaughter of hundreds of mages is what led them to finally get fed up and rebel. That's not holding back the apocalypse by any metric. Gervosio wasn't "holding back the apocalypse" when he Annuled a Circle to hide the fact that his Knight-Captain was a serial killer. Meredith wasn't "holding back the apocalypse" when she Annuled a Circle for a crime committed by an apostate who was standing right there waiting for her to execute him for what he did. And you are once again displaying the double-standard that makes it impossible for the Circle to work. If one side is only going to be punished as individuals instead of as a collective, than both sides should be. And yes, I have refuted your "infection" analogy that leads to the dehumanization that caused the system to fall. You just don't like it. And you have once again resorted to trolling. Every time you do so you are admitting that your argument has failed. Just because people were treated inhumanely, doesn't mean that they should have been, or that it was right to do so. There were alternatives that wouldn't have resulted in further infection. It is explicitly stated in the codex that Graegoir is considered overly permissive for a Knight-Commander. This is the same Graegoir that engages in forms of torture like holding someone in solitary confinement for a year. You were the one who brought up blood magic as a reason to lock all mages up. Now you're moving the goalposts because I pointed out that learning blood magic is more difficult than you made it sound. Well, in that case I'm sure you don't mind me returning the favor. Your weird and out-of-nowhere insistence on emoticons = trolling comes off as paranoid and controlling, and your blind repetition of arguments after they have been shot down several times in several different ways make it seem like no, you aren't trying to discuss, you're just here to say "punished for the actions of others", "double-standard" and "same-ism fallacy" a lot, while ignoring any arguments that address those ideas. Moreover, your antagonistic use of the sentence "one of your allies" to describe people on a fan-run video game board who vaguely agree with each other on select points and not at all on many others is genuinely worrying. Not in a smug "I think your arguments reflect that you're morally inferior to me and that's why you should just shut up" way, but in a "you seem to be approaching this with a really unhealthy mindset, and I don't know if even engaging is good for you" way. Isolde was demonstrably a short-sighted, spoiled bitch. For all we know she was well aware that she'd be able to see Connor again if she wanted to, but resented giving up even those years of her time with him so much that it outweighed the possible deaths and worse in her mind. And if we're going to assume that people's decisions are rational because of things they know about the setting that we don't then I can just as easily assume that the policy of keeping mage children and parents separated is based on experience with disastrous accidental magic and emotionally charged kids causing untold destruction all over the world. That the current one of keeping them completely separated is the result of centuries of experimentation, and the best and least destructive solution found. Your "if the circle was structured differently then x" is a copout. You don't know that from anything we see in the games and have no concrete plan for what changes you're talking about or what effects they could actually have. So it wasn't "explicitly stated in the games". You just personally decided that "Gregoir is unusually permissive" must mean "More Knight-Commanders are like Meredith than Gregoir." That's... pretty disingenuous, but thanks for clearing it up. And solitary confinement isn't considered torture everywhere in the Western world even today. Again, the ethical standards you're trying to apply to Thedas simply don't exist in the setting yet. You might as well be yelling at a baby for not being toilet trained. And no, you haven't refuted the disease analogy. You've just complained about it being problematic to use in real life, which I wholeheartedly agree with. That doesn't change the destruction mages have proven themselves capable of and liable to cause compared to anyone else in Thedas though, which is kind of the point.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 28, 2019 22:09:45 GMT
If you don't care that your own behavior is weakening your argument, that's your problem. The fact that you have resorted to trolling shows nothing except that you are aware that your argument has failed. I've been discussing your words this entire time. You're just claiming otherwise because you discovered that your argument isn't nearly as strong as you thought, so now you're trying to save face by accusing me of not listening. Isolde was a noble. She would have known whether she would have been able to leverage that to maintain contact, and she clearly thought that she wouldn't. Ten years later, Connor says nothing to indicate that he has been able to maintain ties with his family. He would have gotten the training he needed if the Circle was structured differently. The illegal slaughter of hundreds of mages is what led them to finally get fed up and rebel. That's not holding back the apocalypse by any metric. Gervosio wasn't "holding back the apocalypse" when he Annuled a Circle to hide the fact that his Knight-Captain was a serial killer. Meredith wasn't "holding back the apocalypse" when she Annuled a Circle for a crime committed by an apostate who was standing right there waiting for her to execute him for what he did. And you are once again displaying the double-standard that makes it impossible for the Circle to work. If one side is only going to be punished as individuals instead of as a collective, than both sides should be. And yes, I have refuted your "infection" analogy that leads to the dehumanization that caused the system to fall. You just don't like it. And you have once again resorted to trolling. Every time you do so you are admitting that your argument has failed. Just because people were treated inhumanely, doesn't mean that they should have been, or that it was right to do so. There were alternatives that wouldn't have resulted in further infection. It is explicitly stated in the codex that Graegoir is considered overly permissive for a Knight-Commander. This is the same Graegoir that engages in forms of torture like holding someone in solitary confinement for a year. You were the one who brought up blood magic as a reason to lock all mages up. Now you're moving the goalposts because I pointed out that learning blood magic is more difficult than you made it sound. Well, in that case I'm sure you don't mind me returning the favor. Your weird and out-of-nowhere insistence on emoticons = trolling comes off as paranoid and controlling, and your blind repetition of arguments after they have been shot down several times in several different ways make it seem like no, you aren't trying to discuss, you're just here to say "punished for the actions of others", "double-standard" and "same-ism fallacy" a lot, while ignoring any arguments that address those ideas. Moreover, your antagonistic use of the sentence "one of your allies" to describe people on a fan-run video game board who vaguely agree with each other on select points and not at all on many others is genuinely worrying. Not in a smug "I think your arguments reflect that you're morally inferior to me and that's why you should just shut up" way, but in a "you seem to be approaching this with a really unhealthy mindset, and I don't know if even engaging is good for you" way. Isolde was demonstrably a short-sighted, spoiled bitch. For all we know she was well aware that she'd be able to see Connor again if she wanted to, but resented giving up even those years of her time with him so much that it outweighed the possible deaths and worse in her mind. And if we're going to assume that people's decisions are rational because of things they know about the setting that we don't then I can just as easily assume that the policy of keeping mage children and parents separated is based on experience with disastrous accidental magic and emotionally charged kids causing untold destruction all over the world. That the current one of keeping them completely separated is the result of centuries of experimentation, and the best and least destructive solution found. Your "if the circle was structured differently then x" is a copout. You don't know that from anything we see in the games and have no concrete plan for what changes you're talking about or what effects they could actually have. So it wasn't "explicitly stated in the games". You just personally decided that "Gregoir is unusually permissive" must mean "More Knight-Commanders are like Meredith than Gregoir." That's... pretty disingenuous, but thanks for clearing it up. And solitary confinement isn't considered torture everywhere in the Western world even today. Again, the ethical standards you're trying to apply to Thedas simply don't exist in the setting yet. You might as well be yelling at a baby for not being toilet trained. And no, you haven't refuted the disease analogy. You've just complained about it being problematic to use in real life, which I wholeheartedly agree with. That doesn't change the destruction mages have proven themselves capable of and liable to cause compared to anyone else in Thedas though, which is kind of the point. Oh, nothing wrong with that paranoid thinking – but who think, that to imprison potentially dangerous people innocently is the solution – deserve the consequences that those people can cause, if they don't like the treatment. Cause and effect. Your words justified Anders, thank you. He's the answer, enjoy your safety!
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Post by Mithras on Dec 28, 2019 22:41:26 GMT
Well, in that case I'm sure you don't mind me returning the favor. Your weird and out-of-nowhere insistence on emoticons = trolling comes off as paranoid and controlling, and your blind repetition of arguments after they have been shot down several times in several different ways make it seem like no, you aren't trying to discuss, you're just here to say "punished for the actions of others", "double-standard" and "same-ism fallacy" a lot, while ignoring any arguments that address those ideas.
Moreover, your antagonistic use of the sentence "one of your allies" to describe people on a fan-run video game board who vaguely agree with each other on select points and not at all on many others is genuinely worrying. Not in a smug "I think your arguments reflect that you're morally inferior to me and that's why you should just shut up" way, but in a "you seem to be approaching this with a really unhealthy mindset, and I don't know if even engaging is good for you" way.
Isolde was demonstrably a short-sighted, spoiled bitch. For all we know she was well aware that she'd be able to see Connor again if she wanted to, but resented giving up even those years of her time with him so much that it outweighed the possible deaths and worse in her mind.
And if we're going to assume that people's decisions are rational because of things they know about the setting that we don't then I can just as easily assume that the policy of keeping mage children and parents separated is based on experience with disastrous accidental magic and emotionally charged kids causing untold destruction all over the world. That the current one of keeping them completely separated is the result of centuries of experimentation, and the best and least destructive solution found.
Your "if the circle was structured differently then x" is a copout. You don't know that from anything we see in the games and have no concrete plan for what changes you're talking about or what effects they could actually have.
So it wasn't "explicitly stated in the games". You just personally decided that "Gregoir is unusually permissive" must mean "More Knight-Commanders are like Meredith than Gregoir." That's... pretty disingenuous, but thanks for clearing it up. And solitary confinement isn't considered torture everywhere in the Western world even today. Again, the ethical standards you're trying to apply to Thedas simply don't exist in the setting yet. You might as well be yelling at a baby for not being toilet trained.
And no, you haven't refuted the disease analogy. You've just complained about it being problematic to use in real life, which I wholeheartedly agree with. That doesn't change the destruction mages have proven themselves capable of and liable to cause compared to anyone else in Thedas though, which is kind of the point. Oh, nothing wrong with that paranoid thinking – but who think, that to imprison potentially dangerous people innocently is the solution – deserve the consequences that those people can cause, if they don't like the treatment. Cause and effect. Your words justified Anders, thank you. He's the answer, enjoy your safety! Please don't try to justify terrorism.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 28, 2019 22:46:05 GMT
Oh, nothing wrong with that paranoid thinking – but who think, that to imprison potentially dangerous people innocently is the solution – deserve the consequences that those people can cause, if they don't like the treatment. Cause and effect. Your words justified Anders, thank you. He's the answer, enjoy your safety! Please don't try to justify terrorism. 1. It was nothing about terrorism. 2. Noxluxe justified Anders, the system raised and justified him. Also, stop justify genocide.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 28, 2019 23:22:38 GMT
If you don't care that your own behavior is weakening your argument, that's your problem. The fact that you have resorted to trolling shows nothing except that you are aware that your argument has failed. I've been discussing your words this entire time. You're just claiming otherwise because you discovered that your argument isn't nearly as strong as you thought, so now you're trying to save face by accusing me of not listening. Isolde was a noble. She would have known whether she would have been able to leverage that to maintain contact, and she clearly thought that she wouldn't. Ten years later, Connor says nothing to indicate that he has been able to maintain ties with his family. He would have gotten the training he needed if the Circle was structured differently. The illegal slaughter of hundreds of mages is what led them to finally get fed up and rebel. That's not holding back the apocalypse by any metric. Gervosio wasn't "holding back the apocalypse" when he Annuled a Circle to hide the fact that his Knight-Captain was a serial killer. Meredith wasn't "holding back the apocalypse" when she Annuled a Circle for a crime committed by an apostate who was standing right there waiting for her to execute him for what he did. And you are once again displaying the double-standard that makes it impossible for the Circle to work. If one side is only going to be punished as individuals instead of as a collective, than both sides should be. And yes, I have refuted your "infection" analogy that leads to the dehumanization that caused the system to fall. You just don't like it. And you have once again resorted to trolling. Every time you do so you are admitting that your argument has failed. Just because people were treated inhumanely, doesn't mean that they should have been, or that it was right to do so. There were alternatives that wouldn't have resulted in further infection. It is explicitly stated in the codex that Graegoir is considered overly permissive for a Knight-Commander. This is the same Graegoir that engages in forms of torture like holding someone in solitary confinement for a year. You were the one who brought up blood magic as a reason to lock all mages up. Now you're moving the goalposts because I pointed out that learning blood magic is more difficult than you made it sound. Well, in that case I'm sure you don't mind me returning the favor. Your weird and out-of-nowhere insistence on emoticons = trolling comes off as paranoid and controlling, and your blind repetition of arguments after they have been shot down several times in several different ways make it seem like no, you aren't trying to discuss, you're just here to say "punished for the actions of others", "double-standard" and "same-ism fallacy" a lot, while ignoring any arguments that address those ideas. Moreover, your antagonistic use of the sentence "one of your allies" to describe people on a fan-run video game board who vaguely agree with each other on select points and not at all on many others is genuinely worrying. Not in a smug "I think your arguments reflect that you're morally inferior to me and that's why you should just shut up" way, but in a "you seem to be approaching this with a really unhealthy mindset, and I don't know if even engaging is good for you" way. Isolde was demonstrably a short-sighted, spoiled bitch. For all we know she was well aware that she'd be able to see Connor again if she wanted to, but resented giving up even those years of her time with him so much that it outweighed the possible deaths and worse in her mind. And if we're going to assume that people's decisions are rational because of things they know about the setting that we don't then I can just as easily assume that the policy of keeping mage children and parents separated is based on experience with disastrous accidental magic and emotionally charged kids causing untold destruction all over the world. That the current one of keeping them completely separated is the result of centuries of experimentation, and the best and least destructive solution found. Your "if the circle was structured differently then x" is a copout. You don't know that from anything we see in the games and have no concrete plan for what changes you're talking about or what effects they could actually have. So it wasn't "explicitly stated in the games". You just personally decided that "Gregoir is unusually permissive" must mean "More Knight-Commanders are like Meredith than Gregoir." That's... pretty disingenuous, but thanks for clearing it up. And solitary confinement isn't considered torture everywhere in the Western world even today. Again, the ethical standards you're trying to apply to Thedas simply don't exist in the setting yet. You might as well be yelling at a baby for not being toilet trained. And no, you haven't refuted the disease analogy. You've just complained about it being problematic to use in real life, which I wholeheartedly agree with. That doesn't change the destruction mages have proven themselves capable of and liable to cause compared to anyone else in Thedas though, which is kind of the point. I've already warned you previously of what badly-timed use of emojis looks like. If you don't care about what that does to your position, that's your problem. I've been discussing things this entire time. The only reason you're accusing me of not listening is because you don't want to admit that your argument has failed. I have encountered that tactic many times before and will encounter it many times after I've forgotten you. Isolde was terrified of losing her child forever. If the system hadn't created that fear, Connor would have gotten the training he needed and the undead incident never would have happened. If people's decisions were rational they would realize the myriad ways that the system is causing the problems it's supposed to prevent. Yet they actively resist fixing such problems. That's not a rational reaction. I know that from having a basic understanding of how people think, and remembering that mages don't inexplicably think differently from everyone else just because of their powers. The fact that a Knight-Commander who engages in forms of torture is considered "overly-permissive" speaks for itself. Whether something is considered a form of torture refers to the effect on the recipient. Short-term solitary confinement is debatable. Over a year with no human contact has long since crossed the line. Yes, I have refuted the disease analogy by explaining how they're simply not comparable. You just don't like it.
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