inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,272
Catilina
11,039
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Feb 12, 2019 11:04:17 GMT
That's debatable. For one thing, too many themes muddled together just feels like shoddy storytelling. And it's not quite obvious to me that trying to make a name for yourself in Kirkwall as an apostate isn't hugely counterproductive. Mage Hawke feels reckless, walking around picking fights with local powerhouses, refusing to let anyone forget she exists, constantly gambling that the wrong eyes won't see her cast spells. That Cullen and Meredith won't press their points too hard with what they know. That a particularly ruthless templar won't just take matters into his own hands and bust through the Amell door in the middle of the night, drag Leandra out into the street in her nightshift and demand Hawke turn herself and Anders in for brownie points with the Knight-Commander. Refusing to keep a low profile under those circumstances is pretty irresponsible, especially out of naked greed and lust for glory, and it makes it hard to realistically play Mage Hawke as a sensible adult who cares about her loved ones and wants the best for them. Because if that was the case then she would just leave for Ostwick instead or move the entire family there. A Rogue or Warrior, on the other hand, can calculate the risks. Leave mage companions - and sister - behind for jobs with too many prying eyes and market her talents without necessarily putting self or family at risk from religious police. And while the Mage Hawke may see her own freedom as at stake in the Mage/Templar conflict, she's kind of already caught up in it on the mages' side. A Warrior or Rogue can actually have an opinion and choose to stand by her free mage friends or support the Circles as necessary institutions, and engage in the debate from the perspective of a productive Thedasian citizen who wants society to remain stable AND people to be reasonably happy and free, and who will have to help figure out how to actually keep that balance, ideally without terrorism or genocide. In a sense, that's a more relevant, complicated and consequential approach to the dilemma than simply being a member of the oppressed and personally deciding whether to fight, flee or endure. And frankly, as a mage who grew up in the country under expert tutoring, totally free and relatively unimpacted by the Templars, powerful and privileged enough never to be forced to consider consorting with demons for survival, and THEN raised to a position of affluence and legal protection, Mage Hawke just isn't a very good representative of what it generally means to be a mage or even an apostate in Thedas. Those are really good points and I do remember considering some of them in the past. However, one might argue that seeking power doesn't mean loss of protection for mage Hawke. It's just trading one method for another. You can keep a low profile to stay hidden... or become so powerful that nobody can touch you. Tell me, is it usually easier to send a wealthy man to jail or a poor one? And technically, the templars only learn about Hawke being a mage at the end of act 2, when Meredith sees him/her using magic. This is further supported by the fact that only in act 3 do characters start telling Hawke that the templars want him/her in the Circle (Not that they can do anything). I do agree that non-mage Hawke makes for a stronger story, though. Being pro mage freedom is a bigger statement when it isn't really your problem. As for Hawke being too sheltered, I don't think that is entirely fair. Sure, it was nice to be taught by a mage father, but they had to worry about being discovered just like any apostate.I know, Hawke can hate their situation, family... but s/he's adult. If non-mage, why just didn't move away, if s/he hates these? But if doesn't hate – then how can agree with Meredith? Annulment? With Bethany in the Circle? Zevran is a non-mage. Doesn't really have mage relatives. And says about the Annulment, this is insanity, while the Kinloch Hold, at the moment was full on raging abominations. Hawke simply ignores his/her background, and just let that madwoman rampage, even if Bethany in the Circle? If Carver is Grey Warden, he disagree with the final decision, if Hawke chose the Templars. I don't see, how non-mage Hawke's more neutral, if doesn't hate Bethany/Malcolm's memory... King Alistair (non-mage): It not just about the rebellion. It's about a madwoman, who rules over the city, and have to stop – for everyone, not only for the mages. Without metaknowledge, Hawke doesn't know, s/he will able to fight against her, if s/he supports her.
|
|
inherit
749
0
3,854
Iddy
3,860
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on Feb 12, 2019 13:47:45 GMT
Those are really good points and I do remember considering some of them in the past. However, one might argue that seeking power doesn't mean loss of protection for mage Hawke. It's just trading one method for another. You can keep a low profile to stay hidden... or become so powerful that nobody can touch you. Tell me, is it usually easier to send a wealthy man to jail or a poor one? And technically, the templars only learn about Hawke being a mage at the end of act 2, when Meredith sees him/her using magic. This is further supported by the fact that only in act 3 do characters start telling Hawke that the templars want him/her in the Circle (Not that they can do anything). I do agree that non-mage Hawke makes for a stronger story, though. Being pro mage freedom is a bigger statement when it isn't really your problem. Afluence being a powerful protection from the law is unquestionable. I'm not so sure it applies to this though. Meredith's Chantry-granted powers technically supersede Hawke's civil rights, so she can haul him/her in anytime she wants to if she decides that that's what needs to be done. And she did kill the previous ruler of the city to enforce her politics, laws, rights or public relations be damned. I wouldn't count on a title to protect me from that kind of zeal, and I sure wouldn't make a point of keeping my name in the headlines every other day. I also wouldn't say that mage freedom isn't the average Thedasian's problem. If your neighbor could spontaneously decide to turn into a reality-warping demon on a really bad day, or your only child had been hauled into a prison patrolled by sex-starved armed men in face-concealing helmets never again to see the sun, or you'd lost an arm to gangrene from a wound that your healer cousin could have fixed in a moment if he wasn't locked away, I'd bet a pretty penny that you would have a stance on the issue as well. If Meredith could do that, why didn't she? Of course. What I meant is there is greater nobility in feeling sympathy for a group you don't belong to.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,027 Likes: 3,567
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,567
Noxluxe
2,027
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Feb 12, 2019 14:34:04 GMT
If Meredith could do that, why didn't she? Of course. What I meant is there is greater nobility in feeling sympathy for a group you don't belong to. See? That's what I mean. You can make a case for Meredith trying to be cautious and not push the nobility or the circle too far too soon after a power-grab. You cannot make a case for Hawke feeling safe pushing his/her luck with the templars, when their leadership is so clearly willing to take extreme action if it suits them. For a Warrior/Rogue Hawke that's only a minor risk after Bethany is squared away one way or the other, especially if s/he makes a point of not standing too close to Anders in public. But for a Mage Hawke it stretches the suspension of disbelief every moment of gameplay after you land in Kirkwall. Meh. Anyone can feel sympathy for another group. Acting constructively and responsibly in someone else's interest is definitely noble, especially if you stick your neck out. And yeah, that does give Warrior or Rogue Hawke's potential decision to protect the mages at the end some extra dramatic punch. I'm not prepared to say the same about a lot of the other pro-mage freedom decisions throughout the game though.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,272
Catilina
11,039
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Feb 12, 2019 15:32:08 GMT
NoxluxeIts not just about the mages, there are many nobles in Kirkwall who also want to protect the city against Meredith, not only Hawke. They say, this is their duty, for Kirkwall.
|
|
sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,999 Likes: 21,038
Member is Online
inherit
2309
0
Member is Online
21,038
sjsharp2010
Go Team!
12,999
December 2016
sjsharp2010
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
|
Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 12, 2019 19:05:19 GMT
Those are really good points and I do remember considering some of them in the past. However, one might argue that seeking power doesn't mean loss of protection for mage Hawke. It's just trading one method for another. You can keep a low profile to stay hidden... or become so powerful that nobody can touch you. Tell me, is it usually easier to send a wealthy man to jail or a poor one? And technically, the templars only learn about Hawke being a mage at the end of act 2, when Meredith sees him/her using magic. This is further supported by the fact that only in act 3 do characters start telling Hawke that the templars want him/her in the Circle (Not that they can do anything). I do agree that non-mage Hawke makes for a stronger story, though. Being pro mage freedom is a bigger statement when it isn't really your problem. Afluence being a powerful protection from the law is unquestionable. I'm not so sure it applies to this though. Meredith's Chantry-granted powers technically supersede Hawke's civil rights, so she can haul him/her in anytime she wants to if she decides that that's what needs to be done. And she did kill the previous ruler of the city to enforce her politics, laws, rights or public relations be damned. I wouldn't count on a title to protect me from that kind of zeal, and I sure wouldn't make a point of keeping my name in the headlines every other day. I also wouldn't say that mage freedom isn't the average Thedasian's problem. If your neighbor could spontaneously decide to turn into a reality-warping demon on a really bad day, or your only child had been hauled into a prison patrolled by sex-starved armed men in face-concealing helmets never again to see the sun, or you'd lost an arm to gangrene from a wound that your healer cousin could have fixed in a moment if he wasn't locked away, I'd bet a pretty penny that you would have a stance on the issue as well. Technically that's not quite true she killed the previous ruler before Dumar yes but that was because she was given orders to by the Divine I believe she doesn't have authority beyond commanding her templars without the Divine's/Chantry's approval. The only group who do have the authority to act without any approval aside from maybe Weishaupt's is of course the Grey Wardens and they can only do so in a manner where it counts against the darkspawn. Technically Meredith doesn't have any authority over the general populace outside of being in charge of protecting them from the mages.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,027 Likes: 3,567
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,567
Noxluxe
2,027
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Feb 12, 2019 20:18:25 GMT
And she did kill the previous ruler of the city to enforce her politics, laws, rights or public relations be damned. Technically that's not quite true she killed the previous ruler before Dumar yes but that was because she was given orders to by the Divine I believe she doesn't have authority beyond commanding her templars without the Divine's/Chantry's approval. The only group who do have the authority to act without any approval aside from maybe Weishaupt's is of course the Grey Wardens and they can only do so in a manner where it counts against the darkspawn. Technically Meredith doesn't have any authority over the general populace outside of being in charge of protecting them from the mages. That's funny, the former viscount probably didn't think it was 'technically' within her purview to execute him without trial on the say-so of her superior Chantry officials either, seeing as that was thoroughly and brazenly illegal too. That sure didn't stop her though. I don't see why that fact should make a hyperactive apostate with no technical right to live in freedom at all feel more safe constantly getting her attention. And even aside from that, the game is full of moments of individual or small groups of templars going murderously rogue and taking matters into their own hands while expecting to get away with it regardless of law or direction from above. Doesn't exactly indicate a remotely sensible environment for a budding apostate freelancer and his/her family and friends to ply their trades.
|
|
sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,999 Likes: 21,038
Member is Online
inherit
2309
0
Member is Online
21,038
sjsharp2010
Go Team!
12,999
December 2016
sjsharp2010
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
|
Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 12, 2019 20:53:39 GMT
Technically that's not quite true she killed the previous ruler before Dumar yes but that was because she was given orders to by the Divine I believe she doesn't have authority beyond commanding her templars without the Divine's/Chantry's approval. The only group who do have the authority to act without any approval aside from maybe Weishaupt's is of course the Grey Wardens and they can only do so in a manner where it counts against the darkspawn. Technically Meredith doesn't have any authority over the general populace outside of being in charge of protecting them from the mages. That's funny, the former viscount probably didn't think it was 'technically' within her purview to execute him without trial on the say-so of her superior Chantry officials either, seeing as that was thoroughly and brazenly illegal too. That sure didn't stop her though. I don't see why that fact should make a hyperactive apostate with no technical right to live in freedom at all feel more safe constantly getting her attention. And even aside from that, the game is full of moments of individual or small groups of templars going murderously rogue and taking matters into their own hands while expecting to get away with it regardless of law or direction from above. Doesn't exactly indicate a remotely sensible environment for a budding apostate freelancer and his/her family and friends to ply their trades. I think it was part o fan Exalted March or something according to the Codex as the previous Viscount was acting rather aggressively towards the chanrty and in particular against Orlais and other natio0ns/states .So the divine probably felt justified in taking that action and the templars aer technically the Chantry's army it's in one of the books that you can find dotted around Kirkwall in Act 1 I think as I saw it recently I'm not 100% sure but I think it's in Anders's clinic or somewhere around Darktown I found it anyway. I think it's somewhere around there anyway. But you'er right some templars were acting out of place. But that's where people like Cassandra and the seekers come in but according to Cassandra the Seekers felt that the templars were right to take the actions they did in Kirkwall at that time which along with what Anders and Meredith did is what sparked the war in the first place along with the realization that Tranquility can be reversed
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,027 Likes: 3,567
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,567
Noxluxe
2,027
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Feb 12, 2019 21:33:08 GMT
I think it was part o fan Exalted March or something according to the Codex as the previous Viscount was acting rather aggressively towards the chanrty and in particular against Orlais and other natio0ns/states .So the divine probably felt justified in taking that action and the templars aer technically the Chantry's army it's in one of the books that you can find dotted around Kirkwall in Act 1 I think as I saw it recently I'm not 100% sure but I think it's in Anders's clinic or somewhere around Darktown I found it anyway. I think it's somewhere around there anyway. But you'er right some templars were acting out of place. But that's where people like Cassandra and the seekers come in but according to Cassandra the Seekers felt that the templars were right to take the actions they did in Kirkwall at that time which along with what Anders and Meredith did is what sparked the war in the first place along with the realization that Tranquility can be reversed Again, none of which directly concerns or should realistically be of any comfort to Hawke.
|
|
sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,999 Likes: 21,038
Member is Online
inherit
2309
0
Member is Online
21,038
sjsharp2010
Go Team!
12,999
December 2016
sjsharp2010
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
|
Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 12, 2019 22:30:13 GMT
I think it was part o fan Exalted March or something according to the Codex as the previous Viscount was acting rather aggressively towards the chanrty and in particular against Orlais and other natio0ns/states .So the divine probably felt justified in taking that action and the templars aer technically the Chantry's army it's in one of the books that you can find dotted around Kirkwall in Act 1 I think as I saw it recently I'm not 100% sure but I think it's in Anders's clinic or somewhere around Darktown I found it anyway. I think it's somewhere around there anyway. But you'er right some templars were acting out of place. But that's where people like Cassandra and the seekers come in but according to Cassandra the Seekers felt that the templars were right to take the actions they did in Kirkwall at that time which along with what Anders and Meredith did is what sparked the war in the first place along with the realization that Tranquility can be reversed Again, none of which directly concerns or should realistically be of any comfort to Hawke. No but then it isn't really I think that's kind of made clear though at the end of DA2 when Hawke ultimately has to confront Orsino and Meredith in the end themselves it's those 2 that allowed things to go as far as they did. Had Elthina took a stronger stand and done something like locked those 2 in a room to hammer out some sort of agreement/compromise or she ordered them to stop which as the Grand Cleric she was well within her rights to do as a head of the Chantry then perhaps the final confrontation and the war could have been prevented so although she became one of the first casualties of it she ultimately caused it by not acting when given the chance. Even Anders said it himself try to convince the Grand Cleric to do something about Meredith. Ultimately he says distract the Grand Cleric so he can do his thing but ultimately I doubt the wanted to take the actions he did but felt he had little choice. He was hoping Elthina would take some sort of action before it became too late He said about the Mage/templar problems but ultimately I think this is what he meant convince Elthina to do something about Meredith before I take matters into my own hands because I won't hold back much longer. Though this is after the fact but at the time Hawke doesn't know this though Hawke may suspect Anders is up to something by the kind of language he is using but has no official proof other than what Anders has asked for help with.
|
|
michaeln7
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 445 Likes: 829
inherit
10102
0
Sept 26, 2022 23:28:28 GMT
829
michaeln7
445
April 2018
michaeln7
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by michaeln7 on May 7, 2019 11:34:09 GMT
This is what motivates me to pick the blue options.
As a mage, I have a target on my head all the time, so I need to be as squeaky-clean as I can, even beyond my default "goody-goody" personality.
Kinda how my Shepard's a Paragon, even if there's some things he'd go Renegade for, but... "Wait, I'm the first human Spectre, gotta leave a good reputation."
So Hawke tries to be as diplomatic as possible. If he can't be liked, then he'll be valued. Too valuable to throw in jail.
Plus, someone has to keep the streets safe at night, what with all those rooftop gangs dropping out of the sky.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,027 Likes: 3,567
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,567
Noxluxe
2,027
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on May 21, 2019 14:24:47 GMT
This is what motivates me to pick the blue options. As a mage, I have a target on my head all the time, so I need to be as squeaky-clean as I can, even beyond my default "goody-goody" personality. Kinda how my Shepard's a Paragon, even if there's some things he'd go Renegade for, but... "Wait, I'm the first human Spectre, gotta leave a good reputation." So Hawke tries to be as diplomatic as possible. If he can't be liked, then he'll be valued. Too valuable to throw in jail. Plus, someone has to keep the streets safe at night, what with all those rooftop gangs dropping out of the sky. That's a cool way of looking at it, letting you get all the good feels from your good deeds without your character becoming a mary-sue. I don't know when I'll have the energy to give the series another playthrough, but when I next get around to 2 I'll give mage Hawke another try. Only this time I'll be backing the templars at nearly every turn for fear of incurring their wrath myself, and make nervous jokes as much as threats or moralizing speeches. Maybe that'll help with the suspension of disbelief thing.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,272
Catilina
11,039
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 21, 2019 14:30:04 GMT
This is what motivates me to pick the blue options. As a mage, I have a target on my head all the time, so I need to be as squeaky-clean as I can, even beyond my default "goody-goody" personality. Kinda how my Shepard's a Paragon, even if there's some things he'd go Renegade for, but... "Wait, I'm the first human Spectre, gotta leave a good reputation." So Hawke tries to be as diplomatic as possible. If he can't be liked, then he'll be valued. Too valuable to throw in jail. Plus, someone has to keep the streets safe at night, what with all those rooftop gangs dropping out of the sky. That's a cool way of looking at it, letting you get all the good feels from your good deeds without your character becoming a mary-sue. I don't know when I'll have the energy to give the series another playthrough, but when I next get around to 2 I'll give mage Hawke another try. Only this time I'll be backing the templars at nearly every turn for fear of incurring their wrath myself, and make nervous jokes as much as threats or moralizing speeches. Maybe that'll help with the suspension of disbelief thing. Yes, this is what a responsible adult does: fears and supports/helps actively the political power, whatever shit is it – even against his/her family, her kind, against her/himself. The resistance too unbelievable... Good RP conception by the way. Hawke don't have to help and support the Templars actively, to be "trustworthy". Lies and neutral (purple) answers help to cover the actions. Hawke can help his fellows and avoid being too provocative.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,027 Likes: 3,567
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,567
Noxluxe
2,027
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on May 21, 2019 14:57:11 GMT
That's a cool way of looking at it, letting you get all the good feels from your good deeds without your character becoming a mary-sue. I don't know when I'll have the energy to give the series another playthrough, but when I next get around to 2 I'll give mage Hawke another try. Only this time I'll be backing the templars at nearly every turn for fear of incurring their wrath myself, and make nervous jokes as much as threats or moralizing speeches. Maybe that'll help with the suspension of disbelief thing. Yes, this is what a responsible adult does: fears and supports/helps actively the political power, whatever shit is it – even against his/her family, her kind, against her/himself. Good RP conception by the way.  I play characters because I find them unique and interesting and human. I don't necessarily need them to be admirable, or to represent my own politics. You should try it. It's very good for exploring parts of your nature that you don't ordinarily get in touch with. Besides, your notion that helping the big guy against the little guy to protect oneself is something responsible adults don't do is nonsense. The world is and has been full of regimes built on forcing people to play against their family and neighbors to maintain power. If you can't put yourself in the mind of someone in that position then it's because you're naive, not because you're courageous. It's not like your rebellious protectors of the downtrodden and paragons of sympathy and courage are actually doing any good, computer code that they are. Might as well do something more interesting. 
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,272
Catilina
11,039
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 21, 2019 14:58:58 GMT
Yes, this is what a responsible adult does: fears and supports/helps actively the political power, whatever shit is it – even against his/her family, her kind, against her/himself. Good RP conception by the way. I play characters because I find them unique and interesting and human. I don't necessarily need them to be admirable, or to represent my own politics. You should try it. It's very good for exploring parts of your nature that you don't ordinarily get in touch with. Besides, your notion that helping the big guy against the little guy to protect oneself is something responsible adults don't do is nonsense. The world is and has been full of regimes built on forcing people to play against their family and neighbors to maintain power. If you can't put yourself in the mind of someone in that position then it's because you're naive, not because you're courageous. It's not like your rebellious protectors of the downtrodden and paragons of sympathy and courage are actually doing any good, computer code that they are. Might as well do something more interesting. The coward opportunist is great RP conception. At the end can convince him/herself, that the system is good, and s/he, his/her family deserves the prison, OR realize, that this way was always wrong, and lifts his/her head and protect his people. (I can't play like this – I know my limitation. Sometimes I'm envious. Perhaps, once, I will try, because the concept is pretty, especially the second one. But yet, I don't want to play self-hatred.)
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,027 Likes: 3,567
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,567
Noxluxe
2,027
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on May 21, 2019 17:09:18 GMT
I play characters because I find them unique and interesting and human. I don't necessarily need them to be admirable, or to represent my own politics. You should try it. It's very good for exploring parts of your nature that you don't ordinarily get in touch with. Besides, your notion that helping the big guy against the little guy to protect oneself is something responsible adults don't do is nonsense. The world is and has been full of regimes built on forcing people to play against their family and neighbors to maintain power. If you can't put yourself in the mind of someone in that position then it's because you're naive, not because you're courageous. It's not like your rebellious protectors of the downtrodden and paragons of sympathy and courage are actually doing any good, computer code that they are. Might as well do something more interesting. The coward opportunist is great RP conception. At the end can convince him/herself, that the system is good, and s/he, his/her family deserves the prison, OR realize, that this way was always wrong, and lifts his/her head and protect his people. (I can't play like this – I know my limitation. Sometimes I'm envious. Perhaps, once, I will try, because the concept is pretty, especially the second one. But yet, I don't want to play self-hatred.) Frankly, if you and your family could be hauled out of bed in the middle of the night and tortured or summarily executed for disobeying or even displeasing the police, very few people in the world would dare stand up to that if cosying up to it instead would protect them. Being broken by a hostile system and hostile circumstances doesn't make you a coward in my head, it makes you a casualty. And doing so wouldn't be opportunism, it'd be survival.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,272
Catilina
11,039
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 21, 2019 17:58:50 GMT
The coward opportunist is great RP conception. At the end can convince him/herself, that the system is good, and s/he, his/her family deserves the prison, OR realize, that this way was always wrong, and lifts his/her head and protect his people. (I can't play like this – I know my limitation. Sometimes I'm envious. Perhaps, once, I will try, because the concept is pretty, especially the second one. But yet, I don't want to play self-hatred.) Frankly, if you and your family could be hauled out of bed in the middle of the night and tortured or summarily executed for disobeying or even displeasing the police, very few people in the world would dare stand up to that if cosying up to it instead would protect them. Being broken by a hostile system and hostile circumstances doesn't make you a coward in my head, it makes you a casualty. And doing so wouldn't be opportunism, it'd be survival. To hide and smile sometimes is needed. But to working against your kind is sin or cowardice – or yes, totally broken. But that kind of person how can be "champion"? Impossible. Why would fight against anything? Broken or just coward or both. That kind of person would sit in a dark corner to stay unseen – not rush into the city, conquer an estate and interferes with politics the politics and everything in the city. But okay... very sad thinking about it, but yes, the system can make people, who turn against their kind actively and willingly. Because the system can make them believe that they are guilty of their existence. And again: absolutely pretty RP – but I can't play such kind of person. Every little moment would hurt in-game, and I play for fun, not for torture myself. But you spoke about: "very few people in the world would dare stand up to that if cosying up to it instead would protect them." – and we spoke about the "Champion of Kirkwall". Yes. Not a "Chosen One", just a wo/man. But not an average person: especially his/her special abilities made him/her a hero. Hawke should be one of those people, who can stand against the wind. And those people able to give hope. Sometimes, they also smile to the enemy's face – but never give up to work against them. Not necessarily openly – for cover their acts.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,027 Likes: 3,567
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,567
Noxluxe
2,027
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on May 21, 2019 19:04:22 GMT
Frankly, if you and your family could be hauled out of bed in the middle of the night and tortured or summarily executed for disobeying or even displeasing the police, very few people in the world would dare stand up to that if cosying up to it instead would protect them.
Being broken by a hostile system and hostile circumstances doesn't make you a coward in my head, it makes you a casualty. And doing so wouldn't be opportunism, it'd be survival. To hide and smile sometimes is needed. But to working against your kind is sin or cowardice – or yes, totally broken. But that kind of person how can be "champion"? Impossible. Why would fight against anything? Broken or just coward or both. That kind of person would sit in a dark corner to stay unseen – not rush into the city, conquer an estate and interferes with politics the politics and everything in the city. But okay... very sad thinking about it, but yes, the system can make people, who turn against their kind actively and willingly. Because the system can make them believe that they are guilty of their existence. And again: absolutely pretty RP – but I can't play such kind of person. Every little moment would hurt in-game, and I play for fun, not for torture myself. But you spoke about: "very few people in the world would dare stand up to that if cosying up to it instead would protect them." – and we spoke about the "Champion of Kirkwall". Yes. Not a "Chosen One", just a wo/man. But not an average person: especially his/her special abilities made him/her a hero. Hawke should be one of those people, who can stand against the wind. And those people able to give hope. Sometimes, they also smile to the enemy's face – but never give up to work against them. Not necessarily openly – for cover their acts. "Champion" is just a word, and it's applied to Hawke whether she accepts the Arishock's challenge and defeats him in single combat, or sells Isabela into a life of torture and slavery. In my head, Hawke is just a working class adventurer - in the old-fashioned sense of that word, someone who seeks riches outside the normal bounds of profession and heritage - who is trying to get by and set their family up as best they can. Circumstances sometimes make them look heroic, but that isn't necessarily who they are. My characters are very rarely heroes in the sense you mean. They're usually more like heroes in the ancient Greek sense, gifted men and women of action who apply their natures to the world they live in without being one inch above it. History is just too full of "heroes" who were simply men of their time doing as they figured best completely independently of what you or I consider right or wrong today for me to seriously imagine anything else.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,272
Catilina
11,039
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 21, 2019 19:39:14 GMT
To hide and smile sometimes is needed. But to working against your kind is sin or cowardice – or yes, totally broken. But that kind of person how can be "champion"? Impossible. Why would fight against anything? Broken or just coward or both. That kind of person would sit in a dark corner to stay unseen – not rush into the city, conquer an estate and interferes with politics the politics and everything in the city. But okay... very sad thinking about it, but yes, the system can make people, who turn against their kind actively and willingly. Because the system can make them believe that they are guilty of their existence. And again: absolutely pretty RP – but I can't play such kind of person. Every little moment would hurt in-game, and I play for fun, not for torture myself. But you spoke about: "very few people in the world would dare stand up to that if cosying up to it instead would protect them." – and we spoke about the "Champion of Kirkwall". Yes. Not a "Chosen One", just a wo/man. But not an average person: especially his/her special abilities made him/her a hero. Hawke should be one of those people, who can stand against the wind. And those people able to give hope. Sometimes, they also smile to the enemy's face – but never give up to work against them. Not necessarily openly – for cover their acts. "Champion" is just a word, and it's applied to Hawke whether she accepts the Arishock's challenge and defeats him in single combat, or sells Isabela into a life of torture and slavery. In my head, Hawke is just a working class adventurer - in the old-fashioned sense of that word, someone who seeks riches outside the normal bounds of profession and heritage - who is trying to get by and set their family up as best they can. Circumstances sometimes make them look heroic, but that isn't necessarily who they are. My characters are very rarely heroes in the sense you mean. They're usually more like heroes in the ancient Greek sense, gifted men and women of action who apply their natures to the world they live in without being one inch above it. History is just too full of "heroes" who were simply men of their time doing as they figured best completely independently of what you or I consider right or wrong today for me to seriously imagine anything else. But why is that so unbelievable that such a person doesn't work willingly to their family's enemy, or works against them? Don't tell to Cullen, that go to the hell, fucking Templar... but don't have to send the Starkhaven apostates or to that poor Emile to the Circle – or Ella to the place, where they wanted to rape her (not mentioned, in Ella's case this is bullshit, if Hawke doesn't want to draw attention: he helped Anders and killed a bunch of Templars, eye whitnesses aren't necessary, just let her go – farther the better). Feynriel can go to the Dalish and to Tevinter, without Hawke would say a word openly against the Templars. Purple Hawke brilliant in lies, just like Varric. And able to use the diplomatic answers if the situations demand. Working with the Templars is an opportunity. But NOT unbelievable to work against them. Secretly, if doesn't want to draw attention. Many adults risked to work against the government, a powerful institution – and they're NOT irresponsible or childish, just "men and women, in action", as you said. Again, what I wrote, is an opportunity, and not unbelievable, irresponsible or childish. Everyday heroes are about this – the resistance for example, to hide people from the authorities (not only, don't get me wrong!). Not about defeating the dragons or the big, horned people.
|
|
bardox
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 102 Likes: 221
inherit
980
0
221
bardox
102
Aug 14, 2016 15:56:19 GMT
August 2016
bardox
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by bardox on Jun 23, 2019 12:36:01 GMT
I have finished the game with a warrior and rogue, but only once each. And I had to force myself through out. Mage is the only class that feels "right". Mage is generally the class I choose through the whole series.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,272
Catilina
11,039
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jun 23, 2019 13:49:16 GMT
I have finished the game with a warrior and rogue, but only once each. And I had to force myself through out. Mage is the only class that feels "right". Mage is generally the class I choose through the whole series. I love my warrior, in a different view like my mage in DA2 – especially with Bethany in the Circle, and with Anders as lover, that can be absolutely personal. I don't think, a rogue or a warrior necessarily more neutral. But also agree, that the mage is special in DA. My favourite origin, and in DA2, DAI also my fav.
|
|
bardox
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 102 Likes: 221
inherit
980
0
221
bardox
102
Aug 14, 2016 15:56:19 GMT
August 2016
bardox
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by bardox on Jun 24, 2019 0:25:10 GMT
I have finished the game with a warrior and rogue, but only once each. And I had to force myself through out. Mage is the only class that feels "right". Mage is generally the class I choose through the whole series. I love my warrior, in a different view like my mage in DA2 – especially with Bethany in the Circle, and with Anders as lover, that can be absolutely personal. I don't think, a rogue or a warrior necessarily more neutral. But also agree, that the mage is special in DA. My favourite origin, and in DA2, DAI also my fav. Some spoilers in this. If you haven't played DA2 for some reason, you've been warned. Anders is the one romance in DA2 I can't bring myself to try. I find him to be a very sad case. He tried to help his friend, but ended up corrupting a spirit and mutating it into a demon. I really liked Justice in DA:A. He's an abomination now. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Anders is damned and it's his own fault. I blame Anders for the strife in Kirkwall's Circle as much as I blame Orsino. They funnel corrupted mages out of the circle and prove Meredith justified in her harsh treatment of the mages. I don't support annulling the circle, but effectively putting the circle into lock down throughout the game is a step I understand and can't blame her for. I cannot condone blowing up the chantry and starting the war. I understand some people find Anders compelling, but to me Anders is just evil. I carry him into the deep roads and do his various character arcs, but otherwise... I leave him in the sewers. Can't trust him...
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,027 Likes: 3,567
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,567
Noxluxe
2,027
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Jun 24, 2019 1:48:56 GMT
Some spoilers in this. If you haven't played DA2 for some reason, you've been warned. Anders is the one romance in DA2 I can't bring myself to try. I find him to be a very sad case. He tried to help his friend, but ended up corrupting a spirit and mutating it into a demon. I really liked Justice in DA:A. He's an abomination now. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Anders is damned and it's his own fault. I blame Anders for the strife in Kirkwall's Circle as much as I blame Orsino. They funnel corrupted mages out of the circle and prove Meredith justified in her harsh treatment of the mages. I don't support annulling the circle, but effectively putting the circle into lock down throughout the game is a step I understand and can't blame her for. I cannot condone blowing up the chantry and starting the war. I understand some people find Anders compelling, but to me Anders is just evil. I carry him into the deep roads and do his various character arcs, but otherwise... I leave him in the sewers. Can't trust him... Couldn't agree more. That being said though, I think his character arc has great value. It explores how seductive victim-hood and self-righteousness are, and how easy it is to lose perspective and end up causing a mess instead of actually helping the people you propose to fight for. How much easier it is to cause disaster and tear things apart than find solutions. Anders isn't presented a heroic rebel, or a bold humanitarian. He's a seething, bitter man rejecting the whole world for not living up to his ideals, and living in squalor and paranoid isolation because of it, only letting his state of mind deteriorate over time until he finally snaps and lashes out because there isn't an iota of constructive hope left in him. For the first time I'm kind of looking forward to my eventual mage playthrough, imagining the kind of foil he's going to be to a pro-templar mage Hawke. Maybe Anders is actually the person who convinces him that there's no hope in trying to fight the way of the world on principle, seeing where it leads.
|
|
bardox
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 102 Likes: 221
inherit
980
0
221
bardox
102
Aug 14, 2016 15:56:19 GMT
August 2016
bardox
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by bardox on Jun 24, 2019 3:08:22 GMT
Some spoilers in this. If you haven't played DA2 for some reason, you've been warned. Anders is the one romance in DA2 I can't bring myself to try. I find him to be a very sad case. He tried to help his friend, but ended up corrupting a spirit and mutating it into a demon. I really liked Justice in DA:A. He's an abomination now. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Anders is damned and it's his own fault. I blame Anders for the strife in Kirkwall's Circle as much as I blame Orsino. They funnel corrupted mages out of the circle and prove Meredith justified in her harsh treatment of the mages. I don't support annulling the circle, but effectively putting the circle into lock down throughout the game is a step I understand and can't blame her for. I cannot condone blowing up the chantry and starting the war. I understand some people find Anders compelling, but to me Anders is just evil. I carry him into the deep roads and do his various character arcs, but otherwise... I leave him in the sewers. Can't trust him... Couldn't agree more. That being said though, I think his character arc has great value. It explores how seductive victim-hood and self-righteousness are, and how easy it is to loose perspective and end up causing a mess instead of actually helping the people you propose to fight for. How much easier it is to cause disaster and tear things apart than find solutions. Anders isn't presented a heroic rebel, or a bold humanitarian. He's a seething, bitter man rejecting the whole world for not living up to his ideals, and living in squalor and paranoid isolation because of it, only letting his state of mind deteriorate over time until he finally snaps and lashes out because there isn't an iota of constructive hope left in him. For the first time I'm kind of looking forward to my eventual mage playthrough, imagining the kind of foil he's going to be to a pro-templar mage Hawke. Maybe Anders is actually the person who convinces him that there's no hope in trying to fight the way of the world on principle, seeing where it leads. Odd thing is, the Circles ARE the solution. I look to the Circle in Ferelden as the Ideal. The First Enchanter and Knight Commander are at odds on most things, but their relationship is symbiotic. "The Templars protect us as much as they protect others from us." They do listen to each other and work together for the good of all within the Circle. Kirkwall is what happens when the First Enchanter and Knight Commander see each other as enemies. If Orsino had done his job once and worked with Meredith once, locking the mages in their quarters would have been entirely unnecessary. His resistance and Anders' "underground" is what drove tensions to a breaking point. We never get to see how other Circles function so we can't know for certain the conditions that are common living in a Circle. When the Circle works properly, the mages are safe and protected from the fears of the ignorant masses so they may master their craft in peace. When the Circle goes wrong, it becomes a prison. Anders is a pivotal character, as Bioware needed a mage to destroy the Chantry to trigger the war. Anders functions as a plot device to show the player WHY it was done. They couldn't leave it up to the player as many would not play a Hawke that would do such a thing. Having a random escaped mage do it would leave too many questions. With Anders, you see the slow decent into madness. You even go with him to collect the ingredients for his bomb. I never understood why Meredith wouldn't arrest Anders. She knew of him. Not like she ever liked Hawke, but seemed to tolerate Anders because of his relationship with Hawke. Then again, maybe the Templars did send troops to capture Anders, Anders kills them, and we just never see or hear about it.
|
|
Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,027 Likes: 3,567
inherit
10359
0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,567
Noxluxe
2,027
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Noxluxe on Jun 24, 2019 7:13:40 GMT
Odd thing is, the Circles ARE the solution. I look to the Circle in Ferelden as the Ideal. The First Enchanter and Knight Commander are at odds on most things, but their relationship is symbiotic. "The Templars protect us as much as they protect others from us." They do listen to each other and work together for the good of all within the Circle. Kirkwall is what happens when the First Enchanter and Knight Commander see each other as enemies. If Orsino had done his job once and worked with Meredith once, locking the mages in their quarters would have been entirely unnecessary. His resistance and Anders' "underground" is what drove tensions to a breaking point. We never get to see how other Circles function so we can't know for certain the conditions that are common living in a Circle. When the Circle works properly, the mages are safe and protected from the fears of the ignorant masses so they may master their craft in peace. When the Circle goes wrong, it becomes a prison. Anders is a pivotal character, as Bioware needed a mage to destroy the Chantry to trigger the war. Anders functions as a plot device to show the player WHY it was done. They couldn't leave it up to the player as many would not play a Hawke that would do such a thing. Having a random escaped mage do it would leave too many questions. With Anders, you see the slow decent into madness. You even go with him to collect the ingredients for his bomb. I never understood why Meredith wouldn't arrest Anders. She knew of him. Not like she ever liked Hawke, but seemed to tolerate Anders because of his relationship with Hawke. Then again, maybe the Templars did send troops to capture Anders, Anders kills them, and we just never see or hear about it. I'm inclined to agree that the Circles are the best option available. In practice I don't think they work in the long run though. Thedas isn't a place where such a tenuous balance of trust and respect and power with so insanely high stakes can be maintained indefinitely. One side is bound to get uppity, power is bound to be abused, and eventually an escalation happens. Maybe just every few hundred years, but that's still enough to make a disastrous breakdown inevitable, and with mages there's basically no limit to how destructive it can and will be. Up to and including tearing reality apart. That the Circles have existed for as long as they have without major incident is a miracle. So far as I can see, the only reason the system is even remotely possible is that the true scope of how mages have recklessly shaped the world throughout history simply isn't common knowledge. If the average Thedasian was aware that reality as they know it is only how it is because an elven mage's experiment went awry, each and every circle would be annulled within a week. Complicating the matter is that Thedas is more or less routinely threatened by terrifying forces - most or all inadvertently created by ancient mages, funnily enough - that would eradicate it if it weren't for modern mages actively helping protect the world. So euthanizing every mage in Thedas quickly and efficiently might well protect it from mage radicals, but it would leave the continent open to the dangers of magical experiments and power-grabs throughout the ages coming back to haunt them. And that isn't realistically survivable either. So Thedas is stuck trying to harbor and manage these incredibly dangerous people or it's going to be destroyed. And each and every one of them has the capability to destroy it by accident anyway. There's a case to be made that the current world order has always been doomed, and society in this world is living on borrowed time by default. All thanks to fucking mages. As for Anders, I don't know. My impression is that she hasn't found his workshop. He's a much bigger insult to Templar control than Hawke is, so I don't think she'd hesitate to have him killed if she could. It's also possible that his work in Darktown has earned him a lot of popularity with the working class, and she's afraid of a revolt if he simply disappears. And as for Orsino, I wouldn't say he seemed uncooperative exactly. I'm more inclined to blame Corypheus' presence outside Kirkwall thinning the Veil and giving the templars the definite feeling that something large and diabolical was at work that they must crack down on, and which they couldn't figure out no matter how much they pressed, mandating more and more extreme measures. So in that sense, I think Kirkwall's problems is mostly the Grey Wardens' fault. And their inane desire for secrecy.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,272
Catilina
11,039
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jun 24, 2019 8:01:28 GMT
I love my warrior, in a different view like my mage in DA2 – especially with Bethany in the Circle, and with Anders as lover, that can be absolutely personal. I don't think, a rogue or a warrior necessarily more neutral. But also agree, that the mage is special in DA. My favourite origin, and in DA2, DAI also my fav. Some spoilers in this. If you haven't played DA2 for some reason, you've been warned. Anders is the one romance in DA2 I can't bring myself to try. I find him to be a very sad case. He tried to help his friend, but ended up corrupting a spirit and mutating it into a demon. I really liked Justice in DA:A. He's an abomination now. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Anders is damned and it's his own fault. I blame Anders for the strife in Kirkwall's Circle as much as I blame Orsino. They funnel corrupted mages out of the circle and prove Meredith justified in her harsh treatment of the mages. I don't support annulling the circle, but effectively putting the circle into lock down throughout the game is a step I understand and can't blame her for. I cannot condone blowing up the chantry and starting the war. I understand some people find Anders compelling, but to me Anders is just evil. I carry him into the deep roads and do his various character arcs, but otherwise... I leave him in the sewers. Can't trust him... So: this is a big difference between you and me: while my favourite was in DAA Justice and Anders, I don't see, that Anders corrupted Justice. I see, that was their fate, even if Hawke kills him at the end. Perfect. Because I never saw the Calenhad Tower as something what working well. If would, then Uldred wouldn't happen! This was my first origin, and I found the Kinloch Hold unbearable. I listened every mage and Templar, and imagined I should live in a separated tower, surrounded by those people. This is the most depressive origin. This is about how people being able to accept… to enjoy their captivity. The Circle is an awful place. Paranoid, claustrophobic and unhealthy, betrayal in every corner, nobody can trust nobody, even the walls' watching. And they can't leave. And Keili happened. And it was shocking. Uldred was just the icing on the cake. To me: a logical consequence of what I saw here. Irving was a good First Enchanter? My Warden's worst nightmare if he would stay here he would become such an opportunist old bastard. He asked his liebling apprentice to betray his friend. And even if he did it, he sacrificed him. Just like Uldred sacrificed his expendable apprentices/followers (Jowan for example). Irving worked with Uldred, and admired his "ability" to bait the apprentices. Irving set trap to them – and that's terrible in my eyes. Orsino was much better First Enchanter under a mad criminal Knight-Commander. NOT Orsino pushed her to Tranquil random mages and mages for lesser "sin" than a love letter – as Cullen said in the Inquisition. And Anders just did, what he had to do. Tried to save the mages, to free them. At first, he searched for a more peaceful solution, but there was no possibility to making peace. How? Meredith was inherently the Chantry's and Orlais' revenge for Perrin Threnhold, who wanted to clear Kirkwall from the Templars, and free Kirkwall from the Orlaisian pressure. And the revenge was terrible. But still: most of the nobles wanted to rebel again. And my Hawke supported that. In Asunder we saw, that the White Spire (the original Cole's Circle), in Orlais was hardly better than those Circles. Every Circle were prisons. Only one almost-exception existed: Dairsmuid, where the mages lived in family. The Seekers Annulled it. The Circle NOT a solution: more danger than benefit. We saw many examples against the system, and no one little convincing example besides the system. Anders had the best arguments about the system, in the whole game. Wynne and Vivienne are ridiculous with their nonsense. At the end, Wynne attacked the White Spire, with Shale, and destroyed the phylactery chamber, because this was the only solution. Her peaceful dream was always just a dream. I prefer this furious Wynne over the "wise" old grandma. And about Anders' romance: yes, it can be the most tragic one, but to me, the most satisfied: in the Inquisition Hawke said, that they went from Circle to Circle and helped a lot to the mages to rebel. Perfect. He didn't want crazy or raging "abomination". He and Hawke continued their fight. To me: the best romance in the whole series – in many views. But I also know and understand that not for everyone.
|
|
