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Post by midnight tea on Jul 1, 2018 2:34:05 GMT
And nothing in the lore is ruined Don't put words in my mouth. Well you were riled about change in the lore. All I did was I pointed out that such change in the lore won't really ruin much. No, it's not disingenuous. What's disingenuous here is a.) comparing the above issue to things like city name change due to misreading things, and b.) suggesting that characters from comics or books arrive into the game with no introduction or general explanation how they got there in the first place. Which is simply not true. I know, because I actually started the franchise mid-story. Like yeah, in order to know more about Cole's past I have to read Asunder and in order to know more about Leliana I have to play DAO (and other things she's in) or in order to know more about situation in Orlais I have to read TME - but all these things didn't just show up out of nowhere in DAI. Cole wasn't just faffing around the main character from the very start while behaving as if we should know who he is. We got an extensive lecture about what happened in Orlais before we even got to Winter Palace. Leliana didn't just barge into the story and yapped about her past as a bard or adventures with Warden, as if we were supposed to know that. There was enough information introduced during the story at an appropriate time to know who everyone is or what are they doing, or how they got there in the first place and so on. So what confusion are you talking about exactly? There's a difference between general confusion and deepening one's understanding of events or digging for details in past games or other publications. The issue at hand isn't that things from current comics will relate in some way to the next game - I wasn't contesting that at all. My response stemmed from my surprise that you, as a person who followed the series for a long while now can say stuff like 'introducing characters and events in ancillary materials (comics, novels) that new players will have no knowledge of when playing the next game', as if you didn't know already that this is not how Bioware generally implements things into their games that they've expanded upon in their ancillary or past materials.
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Post by githcheater on Jul 1, 2018 3:15:23 GMT
Wow ... this reminds me of an old REM song ...
It's the End of Thedas As We Know It
... and I feel fine.
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Post by Fredward on Jul 1, 2018 6:54:32 GMT
At this point, judging by responses, there is nothing the two factions -- those who don't care about the change vs those that do -- can say that will end in agreement or acceptance. I will still think of it as Qarinus and think this whole thing is stupid. Nothing will change my opinion. True, however the people who do care have a broader amount of reasons for caring not all of them equally reasonable or proportional to the upset. If I break them down what I get is (not directed at anyone in particular): 1. Qunari and Quranis don't sounds the same: true dat. They don't. I don't really have much to add here, phonetically very dissimilar. I guess I might see the source of the confusion when typing. 2. I invest a lot of resources into DA related stuff and now some/all of those are out of date: I kinda get this but I don't like the underlying psychology. You never invest so much that you obviate human fallibility, reasonably you should know this. More reasonable objection: I don't think the stated reason they gave justifies any kind of change. 3. They CHANGED the LORE: this one bothers me the most because no. They did not. If I changed the name of chess to Murderin' Miniatures but change literally nothing else then nothing of substance has changed. This is even less than that because you could make the case that the vernacular/dialect of Murderin's Miniatures impugns on the connotations held by chess, you can't even say that much with changing Quranis to Ventus. As far as changes to lore go this doesn't even get through the dermal layer. The way this plays out in my head is that some dev or someone they're in contact with on the reg kept mixing up qunari and Quranis and the writers, in their infinite precious innocence said, "Well, we could just change it. I'm sure no one will notice and if you're having trouble with it the fans probably will too." [queue wild conjecture on the connection between Quranis/Ventus and qunari in DA4]. Cuz frankly fans, especially new fans, have had no exposure to qunari/Quranis juxtaposing to any meaningful degree. Which is also why I dislike the implication that this change is somehow as a result of/the fault of "new fans" ( the ungood fans) when, at the most, it can be a change in anticipation of confusion for new fans which can't be laid at their feet. This leaves me with the only reasonable motivation of being meaningfully upset about unnecessarily changing a word that really didn't sound that much like another word in the first place which I simply can't be. I am however quite capable of being upset about why other people are upset.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 1, 2018 7:10:12 GMT
1. Qunari and Quranis don't sounds the same: true dat. They don't. I don't really have much to add here, phonetically very dissimilar. I guess I might see the source of the confusion when typing. They're not that similar if you spell it correctly. Q a r i n u s.
If it actually was Quranis I can more easily see how that would lead to confusion. Considering I spelled it correctly in my post that you quoted, I'm not actually sure if this was intentional on your part -- to make a point -- or not.
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Post by Fredward on Jul 1, 2018 7:26:19 GMT
1. Qunari and Quranis don't sounds the same: true dat. They don't. I don't really have much to add here, phonetically very dissimilar. I guess I might see the source of the confusion when typing. They're not that similar if you spell it correctly. Q a r i n u s.
If it actually was Quranis I can more easily see how that would lead to confusion. Considering I spelled it correctly in my post that you quoted, I'm not actually sure if this was intentional on your part -- to make a point -- or not.
It wasn't but ~shrug~ EDIT: Does anyone have access to that bit of concept art that had people with crows on it? Was that old or new stuff?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 7:53:26 GMT
It wasn't but ~shrug~ EDIT: Does anyone have access to that bit of concept art that had people with crows on it? Was that old or new stuff? This one from Mark Darrah's twitter? It's new-ish. As in it wasn't shown until after Trespasser, but may have been created at the same time as a lot of the stuff we've already seen. They re-use the Ancient Elf designs in it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 1, 2018 7:55:46 GMT
1. Qunari and Quranis don't sounds the same: true dat. They don't. I don't really have much to add here, phonetically very dissimilar. I guess I might see the source of the confusion when typing. To be honest, as other people have suggested, if it is the appearance of a word even though it sounds different phonetically then surely the answer would have been to spell it phonetically. Change the "Q" for "K" or "Kw". Then simply explain the change by saying that southerners spell it differently. 2. I invest a lot of resources into DA related stuff and now some/all of those are out of date: I kinda get this but I don't like the underlying psychology. You never invest so much that you obviate human fallibility, reasonably you should know this. My complaint here was simply based on the explanation for the change rather than the change itself. May be PW got it wrong but he said the lore is going to state this change happened several decades before. So my argument was that it ought then to have appeared in the source material but of course it didn't because at the time of publication no one on the DA team saw a problem with the two words. However, I suppose you could explain it within the world, if WoT was written by a southerner, may be they didn't know of the change or had been told not to accept it because it had been done by Tevinter. 3. They CHANGED the LORE: this one bothers me the most because no. They did not. Again, technically they have if characters heralding from Tevinter have repeatedly called it by one name, when they ought to know about the change, and then we find about it subsequently from a comic series. More importantly Dorian stated quite emphatically how attached his fellow Tevinter, at least the Altus, are to their past. There are places in Minrathous where you will find no buildings from the modern, era, etc. He says they care about everything deeply. So we have a group of people who are passionate about preserving their past, for whom names and places have a greater significance than just somewhere on a map, and we are meant to believe that after thousands of years of calling a place by one name, during which there would have been countless conflicts over it, including its capture by the Qunari in the Age of Steel when after its re-conquest it might have been thought appropriate to rename it, they suddenly up and change the name after some random battle in the modern era that didn't even occur in the actual city itself. I've had this problem previously with other changes in lore where to me it seemed to fly in the face of the alleged outlook of the group of people concerned. Naturally it does not seem like a problem if you look at it from our perspective but if you are trying to look at it from the viewpoint of people with the sort of mentality alleged by Dorian, then it doesn't ring true. However, I have decided to reconcile myself to this discrepancy with what was previously alleged by Dorian as in fact merely being how he regards the past (and those he associates with) rather than a universal national psyche. In other words, I shall forget everything he said in DAI because it may be subject to change or contradiction.
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Post by Fredward on Jul 1, 2018 8:04:15 GMT
It wasn't but ~shrug~ EDIT: Does anyone have access to that bit of concept art that had people with crows on it? Was that old or new stuff? This one from Mark Darrah's twitter? It's new-ish. As in it wasn't shown until after Trespasser, but may have been created at the same time as a lot of the stuff we've already seen. They re-use the Ancient Elf designs in it.
That's the one, thanks!
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Post by apollexander on Jul 2, 2018 3:57:16 GMT
After seeing the resurrected HoF, Leliana, and Anders, I would not be bothered by such minimal 'retcons' at all.
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Post by vertigomez on Jul 2, 2018 4:22:51 GMT
After seeing the resurrected HoF, Leliana, and Anders, I would not be bothered by such minimal 'retcons' at all. I'm honestly not THAAAT bothered by it (I find it mildly irksome, that's about it) but if they're going to change it then I hope they change the map. I don't want an inaccurate map on my wall.
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Post by apollexander on Jul 2, 2018 5:08:40 GMT
After seeing the resurrected HoF, Leliana, and Anders, I would not be bothered by such minimal 'retcons' at all. I'm honestly not THAAAT bothered by it (I find it mildly irksome, that's about it) but if they're going to change it then I hope they change the map. I don't want an inaccurate map on my wall. Collector Edition confirmed!
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Jul 2, 2018 10:50:52 GMT
The amount of salt over a mild name change that devs actually tried to justify rather than waive does not give me hope in Dragon Age 4 not being meme'd to death by players.
Honestly this almost reads like concern trolling.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 2, 2018 17:47:24 GMT
I've just realised that by setting this next comic in Tevinter, they have sort of come full circle since Mage-killer. There the plot really started when they got to Tevinter but they then had to flee south and became involved with the Inquisition. These characters then get themselves into hot water in the next comic and the new protagonist has to rescue them after which she seems to be heading to Tevinter with her side-kick. Now we have a comic set back in Tevinter again.
Whilst it is possible that any of the characters encountered in the comics could be reused in the next game, I hope they don't all become companions; I'd like to have a bit of mystery for at least one or two.
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Post by gangrelbeckett on Jul 2, 2018 18:12:35 GMT
Just curious but happened to Variana after her brother Fenris/Leto spared her. Did she returned to Magister Ahriman (His court is in Qarinus/Ventus) or went somewhere else?
And is she still with Ahriman when Hawke gave Fenris to Danarius?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 2, 2018 19:17:55 GMT
I've just realised that by setting this next comic in Tevinter, they have sort of come full circle since Mage-killer. There the plot really started when they got to Tevinter but they then had to flee south and became involved with the Inquisition. These characters then get themselves into hot water in the next comic and the new protagonist has to rescue them after which she seems to be heading to Tevinter with her side-kick. Now we have a comic set back in Tevinter again.
Whilst it is possible that any of the characters encountered in the comics could be reused in the next game, I hope they don't all become companions; I'd like to have a bit of mystery for at least one or two. Assuming we have 9 companions again even if all the comic characters including Mae and Olivia became companions that would still leave 3 slots for other characters. More of some of them are instead advisor-tier characters. Ifonly one can be a companion, I hope it is Vaea. Also hopefully she is a nonsexual LI.
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Post by MrR40 on Jul 2, 2018 19:40:12 GMT
I've just realised that by setting this next comic in Tevinter, they have sort of come full circle since Mage-killer. There the plot really started when they got to Tevinter but they then had to flee south and became involved with the Inquisition. These characters then get themselves into hot water in the next comic and the new protagonist has to rescue them after which she seems to be heading to Tevinter with her side-kick. Now we have a comic set back in Tevinter again.
Whilst it is possible that any of the characters encountered in the comics could be reused in the next game, I hope they don't all become companions; I'd like to have a bit of mystery for at least one or two. Assuming we have 9 companions again even if all the comic characters including Mae and Olivia became companions that would still leave 3 slots for other characters. More of some of them are instead advisor-tier characters. Ifonly one can be a companion, I hope it is Vaea. Also hopefully she is a nonsexual LI. Personally I was hoping for Charter as a nonsexual LI, however I wonder where her loyalties lie in the end.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 2, 2018 19:57:56 GMT
Personally I was hoping for Charter as a nonsexual LI, however I wonder where her loyalties lie in the end. Charter has been shown to be in a relationship with Tessa from the comics, started in Magekiller and shown still together in Knight Errant (by a different team!). I'd prefer they not destroy that just to give the players a romance option. I think it would actually be fun to have an NPC pairing that was an established couple; it allows the writers to explore some different dynamics, AND they can have a positive f/f NPC relationship (that is not dependent on player choice).
Is your question about loyalty just because she's an elf (relating to the whole Solas thing)? I don't think that's quite fair. She has never shown to be anything less than completely loyal to the Inquisition and was personally groomed by Leliana as her replacement.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 2, 2018 20:43:57 GMT
Just curious but happened to Variana after her brother Fenris/Leto spared her. Did she returned to Magister Ahriman (His court is in Qarinus/Ventus) or went somewhere else? And is she still with Ahriman when Hawke gave Fenris to Danarius? It was never explicitly stated. I assume she could have had the option to return to her former mentor. Since Danarius had offered to promote her advancement in Tevinter society, it would seem she had transferred her allegiance to him. If you give Fenris to Danarius then presumably she would stay with Danarius and hope he made good on his promise. Of course, having achieved his aim, Danarius would no longer feel obliged to do so and could well arrange for her death. However, since she had shown a sufficiently ruthless ambitious streak in betraying her brother, it is possible Danarius would want to keep her on as a replacement for Hadriana. If you kill Danarius I would think it most likely she would still return to Tevinter since her prospects as a mage were far better than staying in the south. For all we know she could have ended up joining the Venatori as Calpernia would have approved of her as a former slave like herself. Since it is possible for Fenris to kill her, it is unlikely we shall see her again as they wanted to avoid bringing back characters that could possibly be deceased.
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Post by gangrelbeckett on Jul 2, 2018 20:45:30 GMT
Assuming we have 9 companions again even if all the comic characters including Mae and Olivia became companions that would still leave 3 slots for other characters. More of some of them are instead advisor-tier characters. Ifonly one can be a companion, I hope it is Vaea. Also hopefully she is a nonsexual LI. I don´t think that we get more than 3 known characters as companions. DA 2 had Anders, Isabela and Merrill. DAI had Cassandra, Cole and Varric. If DA 4 continues this trend it could also be three.
My guess is Harding, Calpernia and Maevaris are Companions. Vaea and Ser Aaron are in a few Sidequests. Charter is the new Inquisition Spymaster. Tessa is mentioned by Charter. Marius is dead and therefore Calpernia can be romanced Olivia we have to wait but i think its too late to include her in a major role. The same situation then in DAI with Maevaris.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 2, 2018 20:52:00 GMT
Olivia we have to wait but i think its too late to include her in a major role. This depends on how far they got down the character development for the game when the comic story was pitched. It could even have been a case that Olivia was already a character in outline and the writers of the comic were asked to use her and write a story around her. So I wouldn't discount her entirely, although it is more likely she would have a cameo role or be mentioned in a War Table mission (assuming we have one).
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Post by MrR40 on Jul 2, 2018 20:53:57 GMT
Personally I was hoping for Charter as a nonsexual LI, however I wonder where her loyalties lie in the end. Charter has been shown to be in a relationship with Tessa from the comics, started in Magekiller and shown still together in Knight Errant (by a different team!). I'd prefer they not destroy that just to give the players a romance option. I think it would actually be fun to have an NPC pairing that was an established couple; it allows the writers to explore some different dynamics, AND they can have a positive f/f NPC relationship (that is not dependent on player choice).
Is your question about loyalty just because she's an elf (relating to the whole Solas thing)? I don't think that's quite fair. She has never shown to be anything less than completely loyal to the Inquisition and was personally groomed by Leliana as her replacement.
You are right about destroying an existing relationship but if they can rename a city for a trivial reason... They might write off Tessa and/or their relationship... heavy flirting ensues by the player character etc. That was kind of where my hope came from. Charter used to be a freelancer of sorts until Leliana reached out to her. As one of Leliana's top agents and possible successor she is a prime candidate for subtle subversion by Solas. He only needed to have planted some seeds of doubt. She might even be a double agent now or triple agent ( yes far fetched I know ). We might possibly see in DA4.
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Post by gangrelbeckett on Jul 2, 2018 20:57:15 GMT
If you kill Danarius I would think it most likely she would still return to Tevinter since her prospects as a mage were far better than staying in the south. I don´t know. Yes she could be an apprentice but i have always thought that she saw herself more as a Slave than a Mage. If had this opportunity to leave this bitter life in Tevinter won´t she consider a fresh start somewhere else?
Not as major character but as small Cameo like Connor. Why not?
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Post by shechinah on Jul 2, 2018 21:46:04 GMT
It was never explicitly stated. I assume she could have had the option to return to her former mentor. Since Danarius had offered to promote her advancement in Tevinter society, it would seem she had transferred her allegiance to him. If you give Fenris to Danarius then presumably she would stay with Danarius and hope he made good on his promise. Of course, having achieved his aim, Danarius would no longer feel obliged to do so and could well arrange for her death. However, since she had shown a sufficiently ruthless ambitious streak in betraying her brother, it is possible Danarius would want to keep her on as a replacement for Hadriana.
If you kill Danarius I would think it most likely she would still return to Tevinter since her prospects as a mage were far better than staying in the south. For all we know she could have ended up joining the Venatori as Calpernia would have approved of her as a former slave like herself. Since it is possible for Fenris to kill her, it is unlikely we shall see her again as they wanted to avoid bringing back characters that could possibly be deceased. Not necessarily. It's important to remember that in Tevinter, you may be deemed as expendable as the common citizen if you cannot claim descent from a notable bloodline or a family of some clout. I imagine apprentices in the Tevinter Imperium are usually ones with potential, connections or such. Sort of how like how a noble house in A Song of Ice and Fire may take on the son of another noble as a squire to help foster connections and good relations. If Varania does not have anything to offer as an apprentice then she'd be in a tough position if the choice comes down to her and someone else who do. There's also the kind of life that Varania wants for herself and that may not necessarily be the life of an apprentice. Basically, an apprenticeship may have been the best option but not necessarily the one she desired. It's just the one that meant she didn't have to worry about slavery, poverty, unemployment or starvation. She might deem a life in a Circles preferable to life in Tevinter. Depending on the Circle, it can be a secure and comfortable life with a prospect for social advancement. To be honest, Varania never did strike me as ruthlessly ambitious. She always seemed more desperate and emotionally worn down, in my opinion. I do agree that Danarius would probably have gotten rid of her or at the least, discarded her if he found someone of greater interest or talent. Note: I actually don't think Varania can return to the Tevinter Imperium because it's quite the journey and I doubt she has the money to make it back. I wouldn't be surprised if she hid her magic and found some ordinary job that helped her make ends meet.
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Post by Gilli on Jul 2, 2018 22:03:58 GMT
Also hopefully she is a nonsexual LI. What is a nonsexual LI? A LI without a sex scene like Josie, or?
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Post by shechinah on Jul 2, 2018 22:36:03 GMT
Also hopefully she is a nonsexual LI. What is a nonsexual LI? A LI without a sex scene like Josie, or? Solas and Josephine's romances were both specifically designed to be viewed as sexual or non-sexual depending on the player's preference. I think Hanako Ikezawa may also be referring to a romance that is unambiguously asexual which I would certainly not be opposed to especially since it'd be a way to explore some interesting concepts that I think the Dragon Age writers would be able to handle quite well. To be honest, I always felt it was disappointing that Mass Effect never tried to explore a romance that was non-sexual and/or in which expressing love was portrayed in a more alien fashion like through a mind meld that incorporated the sharing of memories and emotion. It always seemed like such a missed opportunity especially considering the Mass Effect universe contains races such as the asari and salarian.
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