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Post by opuspace on Aug 8, 2016 13:12:40 GMT
Illyria Oh I agree that Mary Sue does get used a lot and often inappropriately. But to me, there's a few universal traits regardless if they're the black hole sue, the purity sue, the tzun sue, etc. Usually, if the character is written in a way that is meant to portray them in a favorable light, right down to tossing in flaws that can only enhance their likability, that alone won't make it easy to point out. But if they do something that ought to have negative consequences and is out of character for others to ignore or even handwave it, then that calls it into question. For example, if a character who is sweet, kind and has the power to invade other people's mind to take control and does this to her friends frequently to prank them, who would ever be comfortable around her, let alone forgive her without an earful of rage at her violating one of the most basic tenets of personal boundaries? Another trait is when a character starts to acquire talents that are unrealistically outside their current experience and control, even within fictional settings. Becoming the head of a spy organization when they start off in a career that has no transferable qualifications raises eyebrows and should be examined. This all can be turned on its head of course and there will be characters who can have all those traits but be written where it's believable. I guess, I want to say that when I use the Mary Sue label, it's not done without a lot of thought. I can't stand Bianca. I would not miss her if she wasn't there in the next Dragon Age game. But she is not a Mary Sue. Her arrogance makes sense. She IS talented in her smith work and her skills remain firmly with her background. She was raised in the Carta so she would know how to fight, how to be cautious and discreet. But, she does mess up. And Varric has a very understandable reaction though he still loves her because of their history. Despite her groundbreaking revelation, it does nothing to distract from her mess up. She's interesting in that I suspect she's used to being praised for her skill and given a lot of allowances by her family because she gives them prestige. So the one time she can't get everyone to drop their frustrations with her despite her efforts to make up for it, she lashes out in a way that's disguised as altruistic concern. In short, I think she's well written, albeit in a frustrating manner. One final thought: I think what makes the Mary Sue label so reviled to the point that fans of characters will fight tooth and nail to prove it wrong is because the story and the characters around the accused "Mary Sue" suffer in its midst. Logic takes a nose dive like why would a ruler give this character that much power over the kingdom just because there's something special about them? Or why haven't we heard more about others that interact with this character? What's their background and why do they like this person?
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Post by ToSch on Aug 8, 2016 16:15:57 GMT
1. You always do, yes. The time it takes for you to lose said stone sense may vary depending of the individual though. I suppose the more sensible the person is, the longer it takes ? Maybe that Carta dwarf wasn't on the surface for very long? Good answer! I'd add: 1. The writers don't seem to be completely consistent on stone sense, though it's clearly a real thing, and clearly you do lose it (Valta was afraid that even seeing the sky would affect hers.) The easy way to reconcile that is to assume a surface dwarf is lying to the gullible non-dwarf. Since "The Descent" I'm actually pretty sure that "stone sense" (and quite possibly everything else going down underground, good and bad) is nothing more than attunement to the titans aka going back to the roots of the dwarves before Solas created the Veil. -The further you get away from the titans, if you're not sourrounded by their blood/lyrium or possibly even being in a dormant one, the weaker it gets. -Valta claims that she's hearing a song that gets louder and louder - dwarven miners listen to the stone "sing" to find lyrium veins - darkspawn follow a song to their corrupted masters. -The gangue - the "bad" stone? Quite possibly simply blight or red lyrium infested parts of the titans "flesh". -The blight (that possibly emanates from a sick titan, if my theories are correct), gives the darkspawn magic that differs from "conventional" magic. Valta got magic from raw lyrium, same as the Red Templars who got their abilities from the red stuff. To many overlappings to be random, if you ask me. For the statement of the dwarven inq: You can claim quite a few things that are not backed up by ingame evidence. The stone sense and visiting Orzammar constantly being the two glaring ones, if you play The Descent as a dwarf. So I will have to agree with Tishina. It's quite probably hyperbole or an outright lie by Cadash.
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Post by ToSch on Aug 8, 2016 17:14:28 GMT
But wait... isn't Cadash's line something like: "I may be casteless, but underground, I feel a connection with the Stone"? That would actually be plausible and backs up my observations.
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Post by tishina on Aug 8, 2016 17:35:02 GMT
But wait... isn't Cadash's line something like: "I may be casteless, but underground, I feel a connection with the Stone"? That would actually be plausible and backs up my observations. I don't remember that being in that line. Anyone have a "save" they can check or a video? In DAO, they imply that once gone, the connection is severed forever, but they've been very vague about it since.
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Post by Obliviousmiss on Aug 8, 2016 17:36:33 GMT
ALL my Dwarven needs, you say?
*pulls out checklist*
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Post by Merela on Aug 8, 2016 17:45:53 GMT
Speaking of the Blight, I've been wondering for some times about its first outbreak. And the more I think about it, the more I believe it was some kind of "defense mechanism" released by the Titans to get rid of the Elves and the Evanuris after Mythal slew one of them and they began to extract and use the lyrium for themselves. Like white blood cells targeting germs. I mean, from Trespasser we have this: So the Elves ran away, and with no bugs left to fight/digest the white cells became dormant. Now for how the Blight reached (and likely corrupted) the Golden City and was released upon Thedas, I'll be as bold as to point finger at Andruil. Dalish legends say that "when Andruil began stalking the Forgotten Ones in the Void, she suffered longer and longer periods of madness after returning. She put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands. She howled things meant to be forgotten, until Mythal turned into a great serpent and sapped Andruil's strength with her magic, stealing her knowledge of how to find the Void. Andruil couldn't get back to the abyss ever since, and peace returned." I'm wondering if Andruil simply didn't simply return underground 'cause YOLO and caught the Blight there, the white cells awakening once more. When she returned to Arlathan (which I believe is actually the Golden City, or at least the Fade-tied part of it is) she brought the disease back with her, except Mythal never got to heal her - she was killed by the other Evanuris, and then Solas created the Veil - both banishing the Gods and putting Arlathan under quarantine, a quarantine broken the day the Magisters entered the place and fell sick themselves, bringing the angry white cells back to Thedas' surface with them - and awakening the dormant ones underground, except that with the rise of the Veil the Blight turned against the ones it was once supposed to protect, Titans and dwarves alike. TL;DR: Elves ruined everything for everyone, again.
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Post by ToSch on Aug 8, 2016 17:49:08 GMT
But wait... isn't Cadash's line something like: "I may be casteless, but underground, I feel a connection with the Stone"? That would actually be plausible and backs up my observations. I don't remember that being in that line. Anyone have a "save" they can check or a video? In DAO, they imply that once gone, the connection is severed forever, but they've been very vague about it since. Just sifting through the available videos on YouTube. If I see one more player choose "I never paid much attention to that stone-stuff" I will throw a hissy fit.
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Post by Merela on Aug 8, 2016 17:54:40 GMT
Just sifting through the available videos on YouTube. If I see one more player choose "I never paid much attention to that stone-stuff" I will throw a hissy fit. Fjal' chose the "I never paid much attention to that stone-stuff, ghost ancestors and singing stones and stuff" actually. The Descent made him change his mind and he grew a better understanding of the Stone after the time he spent with Renn and Valta, but at first he was quite snarky toward the dwarven religion of ol'.
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Post by ToSch on Aug 8, 2016 17:56:56 GMT
Just sifting through the available videos on YouTube. If I see one more player choose "I never paid much attention to that stone-stuff" I will throw a hissy fit. Fjal' chose the "I never paid much attention to that stone-stuff, ghost ancestors and singing stones and stuff" actually. The Descent made him change his mind and he grew a better understanding of the Stone after the time he spent with Renn and Valta, but at first he was quite snarky toward the dwarven religion of ol'. Shame! *dingding* Shame! *dingding* Nothing good on YouTube. Will start up my game and see if I have a save with Thoryn around the time of that talk with Josephine.
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Post by tishina on Aug 8, 2016 17:58:41 GMT
OK, I just checked (had to play through from the moment of joining the Inquisition to get back to it.) That IS exactly the dialogue. I just never happened to chose that one when going through. So yes, a Cadash can say "I may be casteless, but underground, I feel a connection with the Stone." Since it doesn't fit what they've said before, either Cadash is lying or they've been exaggerating. Imagine that
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Post by Merela on Aug 8, 2016 18:01:44 GMT
Shame! *dingding* Shame! *dingding* Well at least he never lied to Josie about sneaking into Orzammar or actually sensing the Stone.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ToSch on Aug 8, 2016 18:02:56 GMT
OK, I just checked (had to play through from the moment of joining the Inquisition to get back to it.) That IS exactly the dialogue. I just never happened to chose that one when going through. So yes, a Cadash can say "I may be casteless, but underground, I feel a connection with the Stone." Since it doesn't fit what they've said before, either Cadash is lying or they've been exaggerating. Imagine that Thanks for the effort! Would be interesting to know now if the stone sense is actually vanishing once you leave the underground, or if it's just getting weaker the further away you're from it's "source".
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Post by ToSch on Aug 8, 2016 18:10:09 GMT
Shame! *dingding* Shame! *dingding* Well at least he never lied to Josie about sneaking into Orzammar or actually sensing the Stone. Touché.
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Keep a Liam Kosta near! :D
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cespar on Aug 8, 2016 19:44:55 GMT
I have wondered two things about Dwarves today. 1. Do you always lose your stone sense if you go top side? Because apparently, a DAI Carta dwarf can claim they feel the Stone. 2. Do the Surface dwarves still abide by the Matriarchal blood line thing? 1. I feel that as long as carta dwarves stay near Lyrium, they would never lose their claim to the Stone. Even Cadash can feel the connection to the stone in Descent, I believe. It's been a while since I played Descent, so I could be wrong on Cadash feeling the stone in Descent. In the old forum, I wrote up why I believe surface dwarves never lose their connection to the stone. Maybe dwarves that doesn't have anything to do with Lyrium, will eventually lose their connection. 2. I think it depends on the family. Father dwarves may want their daughter to do something different than their son.
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Post by phoray on Aug 9, 2016 6:42:53 GMT
I have wondered two things about Dwarves today. 1. Do you always lose your stone sense if you go top side? Because apparently, a DAI Carta dwarf can claim they feel the Stone. 2. Do the Surface dwarves still abide by the Matriarchal blood line thing? 1. I feel that as long as carta dwarves stay near Lyrium, they would never lose their claim to the Stone. Even Cadash can feel the connection to the stone in Descent, I believe. It's been a while since I played Descent, so I could be wrong on Cadash feeling the stone in Descent. In the old forum, I wrote up why I believe surface dwarves never lose their connection to the stone. Maybe dwarves that doesn't have anything to do with Lyrium, will eventually lose their connection. 2. I think it depends on the family. Father dwarves may want their daughter to do something different than their son. Since all you wonderful folks haven't found anything that would directly say that a Cadash couldn't have stone sense, seems mostly there is ambiguity on the matter... I've decided my Mischa Nevra Cadash has stone sense in a Sandal kind of way. Speaking of her! (as I just made her) I shall share my Cadash sisters. Shayle Cadash; Carta "Queen" rogue, dual daggers, probably religiously apathetic with no stone sense. She will romance Josephine. Late twenties to early 30s. Has a half sister, ten years her junior, who does have stone sense-- I'll be playing both at once. The Half Sister will be a Carta "Princess" rogue who romances Sera. The game playing and resultant writing will alternate between two parallel universes depending on which sister went down the hallway at the Conclave to investigate the "noise." I plan on these concurrent play throughs to be full of feels as one sister wonders what the other could have been if they'd lived. What they would have done. Family love always equals feelz for me. Where Shayle was dark, both in how she looked and how she dealt with the world, her sister was light... Shayle had been looking after her half sister her whole life. Mischa Nerav Cadash The only attribute that marks them obviously as sisters is their house brand and their vivid green eyes. Mischa is an archer, a skill her sister encouraged her on so that she would never directly be in the fray. Appearance wise, Shayle is to be elegant, a natural leader that fought to the top, intelligent, sharp, suspicious... a little mean, when warranted. Mischa is meant to look innocent; a bit of a cry baby. Her sister has sheltered her from the worst of the life of the Carta. I think the overall arc will be the two of them finding the middle ground they could never find in life; Shayle will softern, Mischa will find her strength...and happiness in spite of their loss of each other. Or something like that. Do the appearances match description? I know it's shallow, but appearance of my character really speaks to me.
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Post by vertigomez on Aug 10, 2016 1:30:26 GMT
Lovely dorfs, Phoray. Also excuse me while I cry for a hundred years, this is the sweetest thing! Kieran meeting his Aunt Rica.
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Post by phoray on Aug 10, 2016 17:43:23 GMT
Lovely dorfs, Phoray. Also excuse me while I cry for a hundred years, this is the sweetest thing! Kieran meeting his Aunt Rica. I think this could happen. Why not? You enter the eluvian with Morrigan and sort of live there for near 10 years. Family meetings can be arranged, all I'm sayin'
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N3
Keep a Liam Kosta near! :D
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: MysteryCespar
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Post by cespar on Aug 12, 2016 17:15:49 GMT
Lovely dorfs, Phoray. Also excuse me while I cry for a hundred years, this is the sweetest thing! Kieran meeting his Aunt Rica. I love this! Even though Warden Brosca wasn't with Morrigan, he still had a child by her. Maybe one day, Kieran can meet his cousin, grandmother, and Aunt Rica.
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Post by Merela on Aug 12, 2016 21:09:04 GMT
Lovely dorfs, Phoray. Also excuse me while I cry for a hundred years, this is the sweetest thing! Kieran meeting his Aunt Rica. I love this! Even though Warden Brosca wasn't with Morrigan, he still had a child by her. Maybe one day, Kieran can meet his cousin, grandmother, and Aunt Rica. Let's not forget Uncle Bhelen.
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Post by tishina on Aug 13, 2016 2:52:42 GMT
And Cousin Endrin...
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Post by vertigomez on Aug 13, 2016 3:42:01 GMT
I rly love the idea of brother-in-law Bhelen. Like... I just imagine my Warden whispering to his precious bb nephew all manner of things that are not appropriate for babies.
"Go to sleeeeep, little baaaaby, your daaaddy's an asshooole. Doon't tell your mooother, I saaaid that, I'm in nooo way questioning her taste in meeeen~"
Brosca. Brosca no. That is not how you infant.
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Post by vertigomez on Aug 13, 2016 3:44:31 GMT
Let's not forget Uncle Bhelen. I read this and heard the Jaws theme.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Aug 13, 2016 4:42:47 GMT
I rly love the idea of brother-in-law Bhelen. Like... I just imagine my Warden whispering to his precious bb nephew all manner of things that are not appropriate for babies. "Go to sleeeeep, little baaaaby, your daaaddy's an asshooole. Doon't tell your mooother, I saaaid that, I'm in nooo way questioning her taste in meeeen~"Brosca. Brosca no. That is not how you infant. With Bhelen as a brother-in-law, that's totally how you infant. Or how you uncle/aunt, I guess.
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Post by vertigomez on Aug 17, 2016 1:38:02 GMT
I rly love the idea of brother-in-law Bhelen. Like... I just imagine my Warden whispering to his precious bb nephew all manner of things that are not appropriate for babies. "Go to sleeeeep, little baaaaby, your daaaddy's an asshooole. Doon't tell your mooother, I saaaid that, I'm in nooo way questioning her taste in meeeen~"Brosca. Brosca no. That is not how you infant. With Bhelen as a borther-in-law, that's totally how you infant. Or how you uncle/aunt, I guess. Huehuehue~ Bhelen just amuses me in general. I want to see his face when he finds out male!Aeducan named his baby Endrin, too. "STOP COPYING ME."
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Post by Merela on Aug 17, 2016 11:09:41 GMT
With Bhelen as a borther-in-law, that's totally how you infant. Or how you uncle/aunt, I guess. Huehuehue~ Bhelen just amuses me in general. I want to see his face when he finds out male!Aeducan named his baby Endrin, too. "STOP COPYING ME." Freyja named her dog Endrin. I bet Bhelen is very happy about that too.
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