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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Oct 6, 2018 13:18:31 GMT
I know there were good Germans in Germany during WW2, people who did nothing wrong and were not privy to the atrocities going on. That being said, the resulting destruction visited upon their country was necessary and, innocent civilians or no, said country had to bear the responsibilities for causing hostilities. War sucks, no denying that, but it is important to remember who started the war during the Rebellions. Who was the one to drop asteroids on garden worlds and cannibalize prisoners? Im sure there were Krogan that didn't want to commit those actions, but their collective government did, and by that body's actions all Krogan were guilty. It works the other way too, a person might detest their government but economic stability or prolonged peace is something they can enjoy regardless of their feelings. And the Krogan people did bear the responsibilities for causing hostilities. The Krogan government was destroyed and even the concept of a government beyond Clan Leader was destroyed with the after effect of the Krogan Rebellion. Their quality of life only decreased post Rebellion shattering into Clan based wars over territory, resources and women. Given Wrex's entire plan in ME 2 was to provide a safe area for the female clans and for other clans to keep their females. And while the specifics of Krogan mating habits are never fully disclosed if we apply the same standards of behavior and decency of humans to them as you have been doing. Then this is a massive obvious implication of rape becoming very common post genophage. And while this is happening the rest of the galaxy sits idly by only really lifting a finger to alter the genophage because the Krogan were adapting to it.
I've actually never argued against the genophage deployment. Only the after effects that were allowed to fester well beyond the need with no help from the rest of the galaxy. The Krogan people were shattered, stripped of everything and left to rot on their home planet while the rest of the galaxy treated them like nothing more then animals. As the centuries go by driving them to be even more clanish and distrustful of outsiders due to the after effects of the genophage and complete abandonment after the war. Rather then attempt to guide the Krogan away from their aggressive behavior the galaxy helped enforced it while acting surprised that the Krogan tend to be more violent then other races.
I actually never justify that a decedent of someone in a concentration camp during WW2 is justified in killing any German they want. That is actually your logic being applied here. Mine is the opposite that you can't hold someone from Germany accountable for the actions of their grand parents or great grand parents during Nazi Germany. But you are holding the Krogan responsible for their parents or grand parent's actions during the rebellion. 1,000 Krogan or even a government that hasn't existed in literally thousands of years dropped an asteroid on a planet rendering it lifeless so all Krogan must always carry that sin. Even when the only connection they have to that event or the people who made that choice are that they are simply the same species.
When you treat someone with hatred and bigotry that is what you get in return. Wrex is very stand offish and rude in ME 1 until you start to know him better then you can watch his personality change. Krogans are one of the few races that actually have a culture that isn't just humanity copy paste with extremely small changes to it. Their culture is the opposite of most of the rest of the galaxy. While other races don't like to fight unless needed the krogan look forward to a fight because they enjoy it.
How would they rebuild or integrate with the rest of civilization? The concept of a central government was destroyed post Krogan Rebellion. Confidence in a central Krogan government was broken and they devolved back into clans. Which is more or less similar to modern day of different nations. Only difference is unlike us were we have a fertile life supporting planet their is a nuclear hell hole were every day is a fight just to survive the next 24 hours. Yes the Krogan could have simply rebuilt Tuchunka without a problem but on the same note we in the real world could have world peace centuries ago. Why don't we all just agree to not hate each other and simply end all fighting and hatred?
Quarians had control over the creation of the Geth. They knowingly walked the very thin line between AI and VI. The reaction they got from the council was because they lost a war that nearly wiped the Quarians out and unleashed a race of synthetic beings that until BioWare did a 180 and a metric ton of retcon, was a group of Geth that willingly and happily slaughtered any organic life that got near them. And could at any moment pour though the Relays and wipe out a good chunk of organic life.
And Quarian as with Krogan the question presented to the player is "has their debt been paid yet." At no point does the game say the Krogan rebellion was a good thing nor does it say the creation of the Geth and the war with them was a good thing. The game's choice is based around asking if their respective races have been punished enough and deserve a second chance to become better then they were and not make the same mistakes.
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Post by burningcherry on Oct 9, 2018 18:24:24 GMT
>last
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 9, 2018 18:53:38 GMT
>last Andromeda writers really don't know the background lore of the setting. The last race to attempt a mulit-species genocide and galactic conquest was, in fact, the Krogan. Out of the two, I can only recall the Rachni actually being sorry for their actions and working to make up for the damage they did. One could even argue the the Rachni were far less destructive in their invasion considering how there is no mention of worlds being rendered completely uninhabitable from the Rachni Wars; save those hives the Krogan utterly destroyed in their counter attacks. But, like anything non-human(oid) in the setting, the narrative is ready to poke fun of, generalize, and/or demonize anything that doesn't immediately conform to it's specific bias. The game lets Joker and Shepard joke about "nuking the site from orbit" or talk about how they hope to never see one of the 'scary space bugs' again when discussing the Rachni queen in ME 3, but then makes Shepard go along with Wrex's racial slurs on Sur'kesh, or forces him/her to look sad when sabotaging the cure. Hell, when Thessia falls the game even auto-dialoges Shepard into jumping down Joker's throat for an off handed remark about the Asari home world, but then let's those same Shepards remark at how the fall of Kahje, and the very likely extinction of the Hanar, was something "they brought upon themselves". The narrative is completely fine with players being ruthless against aliens like the Hanar, Elcor, or Rachni, but then actively prevents Shepard from doing or saying similar things to their 'sacred cows'; i.e. the Krogan, and Asari.
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Post by burningcherry on Oct 9, 2018 20:16:18 GMT
I know it, man. Just presenting an example.
Edit: btw. Mac Walters co-authored this book. This may be why the asari are being pushed so hard in it, even contrary to what was previously said and shown.
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Post by opuspace on Oct 10, 2018 6:46:40 GMT
>last Andromeda writers really don't know the background lore of the setting. The last race to attempt a mulit-species genocide and galactic conquest was, in fact, the Krogan. Out of the two, I can only recall the Rachni actually being sorry for their actions and working to make up for the damage they did. One could even argue the the Rachni were far less destructive in their invasion considering how there is no mention of worlds being rendered completely uninhabitable from the Rachni Wars; save those hives the Krogan utterly destroyed in their counter attacks. But, like anything non-human(oid) in the setting, the narrative is ready to poke fun of, generalize, and/or demonize anything that doesn't immediately conform to it's specific bias. The game lets Joker and Shepard joke about "nuking the site from orbit" or talk about how they hope to never see one of the 'scary space bugs' again when discussing the Rachni queen in ME 3, but then makes Shepard go along with Wrex's racial slurs on Sur'kesh, or forces him/her to look sad when sabotaging the cure. Hell, when Thessia falls the game even auto-dialoges Shepard into jumping down Joker's throat for an off handed remark about the Asari home world, but then let's those same Shepards remark at how the fall of Kahje, and the very likely extinction of the Hanar, was something "they brought upon themselves". The narrative is completely fine with players being ruthless against aliens like the Hanar, Elcor, or Rachni, but then actively prevents Shepard from doing or saying similar things to their 'sacred cows'; i.e. the Krogan, and Asari. Remember the mission to disarm the bomb Turians left on Tuchanka? I was yelling at the screen at Shep for chewing Primarch Victus out for that when not so long ago, Shep was asked to disarm a nuclear probe the Alliance sent out. Hard to be mad like Wrex was when he could have been there with us dealing with Elanos Haliat who had that bomb.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 10, 2018 13:29:18 GMT
Remember the mission to disarm the bomb Turians left on Tuchanka? I was yelling at the screen at Shep for chewing Primarch Victus out for that when not so long ago, Shep was asked to disarm a nuclear probe the Alliance sent out. Hard to be mad like Wrex was when he could have been there with us dealing with Elanos Haliat who had that bomb. Take that mission a step forward, to the debriefing. Primarch Victus has been leader of the Turian government for what? A couple days at most? And he was only just made aware of the top secret bomb on Tuuchanka, yet he sent what forces he could to stop the Cerberus ploy; even his only son. After foiling the attack, saving countless Krogan lives in the process, but at the cost of his son's life Wrex is a complete prick. Yeah its an unfortunate situation, but Victus did everything in his power to stop it, not even sparing his own son, and all Wrex can do is bitch and moan. I wanted to be able to slug him in his smug Krogan face so much during that scene; or at the very least tell him off. Really Wrex? You want your people to be taken seriously. You want to be free of the Genophage and be allowed to integrate into galactic society. To be treated like everyone else. And yet, here you are, the supposed 'Messiah' of your species, sniping at one of the very people trying to work with you. If you're that much of an asshole towards Victus; a father that had just lost his son; then why should I care about the plight of Krogan children again? You want to be treated like everyone else in the galaxy, yet act like a petulant teenager and then still demand your free handouts.
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Post by opuspace on Oct 10, 2018 13:40:39 GMT
Remember the mission to disarm the bomb Turians left on Tuchanka? I was yelling at the screen at Shep for chewing Primarch Victus out for that when not so long ago, Shep was asked to disarm a nuclear probe the Alliance sent out. Hard to be mad like Wrex was when he could have been there with us dealing with Elanos Haliat who had that bomb. Take that mission a step forward, to the debriefing. Primarch Victus has been leader of the Turian government for what? A couple days at most? And he was only just made aware of the top secret bomb on Tuuchanka, yet he sent what forces he could to stop the Cerberus ploy; even his only son. After foiling the attack, saving countless Krogan lives in the process, but at the cost of his son's life Wrex is a complete prick. Yeah its an unfortunate situation, but Victus did everything in his power to stop it, not even sparing his own son, and all Wrex can do is bitch and moan. I wanted to be able to slug him in his smug Krogan face so much during that scene; or at the very least tell him off. Really Wrex? You want your people to be taken seriously. You want to be free of the Genophage and be allowed to integrate into galactic society. To be treated like everyone else. And yet, here you are, the supposed 'Messiah' of your species, sniping at one of the very people trying to work with you. If you're that much of an asshole towards Victus; a father that had just lost his son; then why should I care about the plight of Krogan children again? You want to be treated like everyone else in the galaxy, yet act like a petulant teenager and then still demand your free handouts. I'm more mad about the railroading they force Shepard into for the sake of pathos. Much of the third game requires being unaware of events in the first game. Even though we could mention understanding their situation during the mission, before and after led to extreme hypocritical moments from Shepard. It's the same sort of tone taken to convince the Quarians to stand down when I wanted to remind Legion of Eden Prime and how his bunch failed to stop a war with full knowledge of what the heretics would do against humans and all the other races. It's harder to forgive a race that impaled your own on stakes without provocation vs the race that tried to fry your attackers. I'm less mad at Wrex because he has a personal stake in this and given how brutally he'll be removed if he fails. Shepard though? They have no excuse. That whole mission kept acting like it was as though Turians had attempted some sort of war crime when all the while I kept wanting someone to say, "You know we had to deal with something exactly like this 2 years ago, right?"
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 10, 2018 14:09:37 GMT
Take that mission a step forward, to the debriefing. Primarch Victus has been leader of the Turian government for what? A couple days at most? And he was only just made aware of the top secret bomb on Tuuchanka, yet he sent what forces he could to stop the Cerberus ploy; even his only son. After foiling the attack, saving countless Krogan lives in the process, but at the cost of his son's life Wrex is a complete prick. Yeah its an unfortunate situation, but Victus did everything in his power to stop it, not even sparing his own son, and all Wrex can do is bitch and moan. I wanted to be able to slug him in his smug Krogan face so much during that scene; or at the very least tell him off. Really Wrex? You want your people to be taken seriously. You want to be free of the Genophage and be allowed to integrate into galactic society. To be treated like everyone else. And yet, here you are, the supposed 'Messiah' of your species, sniping at one of the very people trying to work with you. If you're that much of an asshole towards Victus; a father that had just lost his son; then why should I care about the plight of Krogan children again? You want to be treated like everyone else in the galaxy, yet act like a petulant teenager and then still demand your free handouts. I'm more mad about the railroading they force Shepard into for the sake of pathos. Much of the third game requires being unaware of events in the first game. Even though we could mention understanding their situation during the mission, before and after led to extreme hypocritical moments from Shepard. It's the same sort of tone taken to convince the Quarians to stand down when I wanted to remind Legion of Eden Prime and how his bunch failed to stop a war with full knowledge of what the heretics would do against humans and all the other races. It's harder to forgive a race that impaled your own on stakes without provocation vs the race that tried to fry your attackers. I'm less mad at Wrex because he has a personal stake in this and given how brutally he'll be removed if he fails. Shepard though? They have no excuse. That whole mission kept acting like it was as though Turians had attempted some sort of war crime when all the while I kept wanting someone to say, "You know we had to deal with something exactly like this 2 years ago, right?" Completely agreed on the railroading for Shepard during that mission, and all throughout the third game really. The bias of the Tuchunka arc shines throughout this mission though. That the Krogan are blameless and innocent and those Turians are worse than Cerberus for doing exactly what humanity did in game one.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 15:58:00 GMT
Remember the mission to disarm the bomb Turians left on Tuchanka? I was yelling at the screen at Shep for chewing Primarch Victus out for that when not so long ago, Shep was asked to disarm a nuclear probe the Alliance sent out. Hard to be mad like Wrex was when he could have been there with us dealing with Elanos Haliat who had that bomb. Take that mission a step forward, to the debriefing. Primarch Victus has been leader of the Turian government for what? A couple days at most? And he was only just made aware of the top secret bomb on Tuuchanka, yet he sent what forces he could to stop the Cerberus ploy; even his only son. After foiling the attack, saving countless Krogan lives in the process, but at the cost of his son's life Wrex is a complete prick. Yeah its an unfortunate situation, but Victus did everything in his power to stop it, not even sparing his own son, and all Wrex can do is bitch and moan. I wanted to be able to slug him in his smug Krogan face so much during that scene; or at the very least tell him off. Really Wrex? You want your people to be taken seriously. You want to be free of the Genophage and be allowed to integrate into galactic society. To be treated like everyone else. And yet, here you are, the supposed 'Messiah' of your species, sniping at one of the very people trying to work with you. If you're that much of an asshole towards Victus; a father that had just lost his son; then why should I care about the plight of Krogan children again? You want to be treated like everyone else in the galaxy, yet act like a petulant teenager and then still demand your free handouts. Victus is no saint. At the time of that meeting, he knows of the Turian Bomb and that it has the very real potential of annihilating all the Krogan women and children on that planet. He's desperate enough to send in his son and knows that there is a very good chance even his son won't succeed at stopping Cerberus from detonating that bomb... but he doesn't even bother to reveal the bomb's existence to Wrex at that meeting so that Wrex could possibly evacuate at least the Kelphic Valley and save innocent Krogan lives (and before you go on about how the Krogan aren't innocent... Krogan children are innocent... even Krogan women are innocent since it's pretty clear that, other than Wrex, the Krogan warlords give women very little say in how their society runs. Victus is as much a prick at that meeting as Wrex, more so even. Wrex is merely saying he'll withhold troops until a cure is found. Victus is deliberately leaving the Krogan open to being bombed out of existence and putting the responsibility for clearing up the mess on the shoulders of his only son... sending him there without the help he could have had if only Victus had revealed the existence of that bomb. Wrex at least laid his cards on the table.
Had Wrex flatly refused to help the Turians. There is little doubt in my mind that Victus would have at least tried to recall his son and be very willing to just allow Cerberus to detonate that bomb. The Krogan would have never known that the Turians planted it since they would have been largely annihilated by it. The ones remaining (off planet) probably would have assumed Cerberus brought it with them. I'm also confident that, after the meeting, the only reason he asks Shepard to help is because he can't, in fact, reach his son in order to recall him.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 10, 2018 16:06:56 GMT
Had Wrex sent a few troops to help, a sign of good faith, Victus might have opened up about the bomb. Wrex was being selfish. I get he's trying to do what's best for his species, but he needs to be able to show that he is willing to help.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 10, 2018 16:33:19 GMT
Take that mission a step forward, to the debriefing. Primarch Victus has been leader of the Turian government for what? A couple days at most? And he was only just made aware of the top secret bomb on Tuuchanka, yet he sent what forces he could to stop the Cerberus ploy; even his only son. After foiling the attack, saving countless Krogan lives in the process, but at the cost of his son's life Wrex is a complete prick. Yeah its an unfortunate situation, but Victus did everything in his power to stop it, not even sparing his own son, and all Wrex can do is bitch and moan. I wanted to be able to slug him in his smug Krogan face so much during that scene; or at the very least tell him off. Really Wrex? You want your people to be taken seriously. You want to be free of the Genophage and be allowed to integrate into galactic society. To be treated like everyone else. And yet, here you are, the supposed 'Messiah' of your species, sniping at one of the very people trying to work with you. If you're that much of an asshole towards Victus; a father that had just lost his son; then why should I care about the plight of Krogan children again? You want to be treated like everyone else in the galaxy, yet act like a petulant teenager and then still demand your free handouts. Victus is no saint. At the time of that meeting, he knows of the Turian Bomb and that it has the very real potential of annihilating all the Krogan women and children on that planet. He's desperate enough to send in his son and knows that there is a very good chance even his son won't succeed at stopping Cerberus from detonating that bomb... but he doesn't even bother to reveal the bomb's existence to Wrex at that meeting so that Wrex could possibly evacuate at least the Kelphic Valley and save innocent Krogan lives (and before you go on about how the Krogan aren't innocent... Krogan children are innocent... even Krogan women are innocent since it's pretty clear that, other than Wrex, the Krogan warlords give women very little say in how their society runs. Victus is as much a prick at that meeting as Wrex, more so even. Wrex is merely saying he'll withhold troops until a cure is found. Victus is deliberately leaving the Krogan open to being bombed out of existence and putting the responsibility for clearing up the mess on the shoulders of his only son... sending him there without the help he could have had if only Victus had revealed the existence of that bomb. Wrex at least laid his cards on the table.
Had Wrex flatly refused to help the Turians. There is little doubt in my mind that Victus would have at least tried to recall his son and be very willing to just allow Cerberus to detonate that bomb. The Krogan would have never known that the Turians planted it since they would have been largely annihilated by it. The ones remaining (off planet) probably would have assumed Cerberus brought it with them. I'm also confident that, after the meeting, the only reason he asks Shepard to help is because he can't, in fact, reach his son in order to recall him.
Victus wasn't deliberately leaving the Krogan open to attack, though the biased narrative would like to present him in the worst possible light. He's just been made leader of his peoples' government by virtue of all those ahead of him in rank being wiped out by the Reapers. So not only does he have to acquaint himself with thousands of years of classified intel and the general oversight of the Turian military, but he's also having to deal with a Reaper invasion of his home planet and the galaxy at large. Then, on top of all of this sudden responsibility, he's told that this human supremacist terrorist group has somehow gained access to one of the Hierarchy's most closely guarded secrets, managed to stealth their way onto Tuchunka and then, though the magic of plot armor, activated the bomb's override and set it to detonate. There was no time for Wrex to organize an evacuation of the surrounding area, and it was very likely that Cerberus would have denoted the bomb earlier if they thought the Krogan were aware of their plan. Yes, Victus didn't tell Wrex about the bomb the moment he found out about it, but that isn't quite the damnable sin the narrative would like to paint it as considering the situation. And if you really want to get down to it, Victus and the rest of the Turians were actually preforming above and beyond the requirements that Wrex demanded. The letter of Wrex's ultimatum was that the Genophage was cured before he would send any aid; nothing in the forced agreement mentioned anything about Turians protecting Krogan assets from hostile third parties. If Victus was as heartless and cruel as the game wanted to paint him as, he would have simply done nothing about the bomb and left the Krogan to their fate. The fact that he took the initiative and ordered an attack on Cerberus forces points to him being concerned with Krogan lives and building an alliance with them. Wrex meanwhile, refuses to send even a paltry force of warriors to help defend Palaven as a sign of good faith (like themikefest said).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 16:50:30 GMT
Had Wrex sent a few troops to help, a sign of good faith, Victus might have opened up about the bomb. Wrex was being selfish. I get he's trying to do what's best for his species, but he needs to be able to show that he is willing to help. Victus is being equally "selfish," actually moreso in that he is directly jeopardizing the lives of everyone in the Kelphic Valley, Krogan and non-Krogan alike. Had he opened up to the Krogan, the Krogan first response would have been to protect their home planet and their own people. Therefore, they would have helped prevent that bomb from going off. Victus' own son would have received tremendous support in accomplishing his mission. Victus is the one who needed to step in with the sign of good faith, but he withheld... probably because he actually wanted the ability to decide to allow the bomb to go off if there was no possibility of the Krogan helping Palaven. Instead, Wrex made the jesture... help was indeed possible if the Krogan women were returned and a cure found for the genophage. Wrex did not turn down the Turians point blank even though he could have.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 17:05:33 GMT
Victus is no saint. At the time of that meeting, he knows of the Turian Bomb and that it has the very real potential of annihilating all the Krogan women and children on that planet. He's desperate enough to send in his son and knows that there is a very good chance even his son won't succeed at stopping Cerberus from detonating that bomb... but he doesn't even bother to reveal the bomb's existence to Wrex at that meeting so that Wrex could possibly evacuate at least the Kelphic Valley and save innocent Krogan lives (and before you go on about how the Krogan aren't innocent... Krogan children are innocent... even Krogan women are innocent since it's pretty clear that, other than Wrex, the Krogan warlords give women very little say in how their society runs. Victus is as much a prick at that meeting as Wrex, more so even. Wrex is merely saying he'll withhold troops until a cure is found. Victus is deliberately leaving the Krogan open to being bombed out of existence and putting the responsibility for clearing up the mess on the shoulders of his only son... sending him there without the help he could have had if only Victus had revealed the existence of that bomb. Wrex at least laid his cards on the table.
Had Wrex flatly refused to help the Turians. There is little doubt in my mind that Victus would have at least tried to recall his son and be very willing to just allow Cerberus to detonate that bomb. The Krogan would have never known that the Turians planted it since they would have been largely annihilated by it. The ones remaining (off planet) probably would have assumed Cerberus brought it with them. I'm also confident that, after the meeting, the only reason he asks Shepard to help is because he can't, in fact, reach his son in order to recall him.
Victus wasn't deliberately leaving the Krogan open to attack, though the biased narrative would like to present him in the worst possible light. He's just been made leader of his peoples' government by virtue of all those ahead of him in rank being wiped out by the Reapers. So not only does he have to acquaint himself with thousands of years of classified intel and the general oversight of the Turian military, but he's also having to deal with a Reaper invasion of his home planet and the galaxy at large. Then, on top of all of this sudden responsibility, he's told that this human supremacist terrorist group has somehow gained access to one of the Hierarchy's most closely guarded secrets, managed to stealth their way onto Tuchunka and then, though the magic of plot armor, activated the bomb's override and set it to detonate. There was no time for Wrex to organize an evacuation of the surrounding area, and it was very likely that Cerberus would have denoted the bomb earlier if they thought the Krogan were aware of their plan. Yes, Victus didn't tell Wrex about the bomb the moment he found out about it, but that isn't quite the damnable sin the narrative would like to paint it as considering the situation. And if you really want to get down to it, Victus and the rest of the Turians were actually preforming above and beyond the requirements that Wrex demanded. The letter of Wrex's ultimatum was that the Genophage was cured before he would send any aid; nothing in the forced agreement mentioned anything about Turians protecting Krogan assets from hostile third parties. If Victus was as heartless and cruel as the game wanted to paint him as, he would have simply done nothing about the bomb and left the Krogan to their fate. The fact that he took the initiative and ordered an attack on Cerberus forces points to him being concerned with Krogan lives and building an alliance with them. Wrex meanwhile, refuses to send even a paltry force of warriors to help defend Palaven as a sign of good faith (like themikefest said). Oh poor Victus... who should have long known he was next in line to be the Primarch and is a ranking officer in the Turian hierarchy. I'm sure he had some awareness of Turian intel. It's not like they were pulling some accountant into the fray (a la the Initiative). The game only mentions the death of the current Primarch and it is completely vague about whether or not other Primarch's in line for the role had actually been killed. It only suggests that Corinthus doesn't know the status of the line of succession. Heck, even Garrus is somewhat aware that he is in line to be a Primarch.
Victus denies Wrex the possibility of responding to the bomb threat in any way shape or form because he refuses to tell him. The premise is that the Krogan would be angry, but it's not realistic that, with a bomb about to go off on one's home planet, that the response would be to haul off and attack Palaven in league with the Reapers. As I said, the almost certain Krogan first response to the news would be to help prevent the bomb from going off.
Even if the Primarch only found out about the bomb shortly before the meeting, he had enough time to deply his son, for his son to get to Tuchanka, and for the mission to have gone south long enough that the Primarch was fully aware that his son's platoon had gone missing. All in the short duration of time it takes for Shepard to rescue Eve from Sur'Kesh. Instead of opening to Wrex even then (knowing full well that his son may have already failed in his mission), he still opts to keep his secret. He doesn't know how close Cerberus is to detonating that bomb, but he does know that the Kelphic Valley is one of the most populated areas of Tuchanka and that those residents are in immediate danger. He IS intentionally keeping them at risk.
The biased narrative is yours. The balanced narrative is that both the Turians and Krogans aren't playing nice at that meeting.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 10, 2018 18:03:34 GMT
Had Wrex sent a few troops to help, a sign of good faith, Victus might have opened up about the bomb. Wrex was being selfish. I get he's trying to do what's best for his species, but he needs to be able to show that he is willing to help. Victus is being equally "selfish," actually moreso in that he is directly jeopardizing the lives of everyone in the Kelphic Valley, Krogan and non-Krogan alike. Had he opened up to the Krogan, the Krogan first response would have been to protect their home planet and their own people. Therefore, they would have helped prevent that bomb from going off. Victus' own son would have received tremendous support in accomplishing his mission. Victus is the one who needed to step in with the sign of good faith, but he withheld... probably because he actually wanted the ability to decide to allow the bomb to go off if there was no possibility of the Krogan helping Palaven. Instead, Wrex made the jesture... help was indeed possible if the Krogan women were returned and a cure found for the genophage. Wrex did not turn down the Turians point blank even though he could have. When Wrex says no support until everyone has the cure is the moment I would not have told him anything. **** him and his species. Yes Victus could have said something, but with Wrex refusing to send any support, even a little, Victus decided if Wrex wants to play hardball, he can to.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 20:07:47 GMT
Victus is being equally "selfish," actually moreso in that he is directly jeopardizing the lives of everyone in the Kelphic Valley, Krogan and non-Krogan alike. Had he opened up to the Krogan, the Krogan first response would have been to protect their home planet and their own people. Therefore, they would have helped prevent that bomb from going off. Victus' own son would have received tremendous support in accomplishing his mission. Victus is the one who needed to step in with the sign of good faith, but he withheld... probably because he actually wanted the ability to decide to allow the bomb to go off if there was no possibility of the Krogan helping Palaven. Instead, Wrex made the jesture... help was indeed possible if the Krogan women were returned and a cure found for the genophage. Wrex did not turn down the Turians point blank even though he could have. When Wrex says no support until everyone has the cure is the moment I would not have told him anything. **** him and his species. Yes Victus could have said something, but with Wrex refusing to send any support, even a little, Victus decided if Wrex wants to play hardball, he can to.
.. and vice verse - If Victus wants to play hardball (and he was by not divulging anything about the bomb right off the bat), Wrex can too. In actually, Shepard is railroaded into being complicit with the Turians in that there is no way Shepard can opt to tell Wrex about the bomb after he is told about it by Victus. The presentation in the game of both sides is actually fairly well balanced. It's the rhetoric that flies around this site that is biased.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 10, 2018 21:45:38 GMT
Wrex should know, but he doesn't since he's just a stupid krogan, that not everyone will trust him or his species. To show that he can be trusted, send some troops , then the rest once the genophage has been dealt with.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 15, 2018 15:14:46 GMT
Really, out of all the other species in the galaxy, it was the Turians and the Rachni that actually did the most to prepare and combat the threat of the Reapers; which is where the majority of my contention for the Genohpage plot line comes from.
The Turians took the brunt of the Reaper attacks and offered the most resilient defense against the invasion. Even then, they are perfectly willing to divert sizable portions of their besieged naval forces to provide protection for the Crucible, no questions asked. The fact that players have to get them assistance prior to this is a logistical necessity as they are literally the only major military force keeping the Reapers occupied. The reason why the Salarians and Krogan didn't have multiple Reaper dreadnoughts darkening the skies of Sur'Kesh and Tuchunka is specifically because the Turians were holding the line. Out of the two requests, I find the need to secure aid for Palaven to be much more reasonable than the sudden demand for a complete and total cure of the Genophage. Without Palaven and the Turians it won't matter how many babies the Krogan can have.
As for the Rachni, they are the only species in the entire galaxy to take the warning of the Reapers seriously and prepare accordingly (writers' fiat notwithstanding). Honestly, I would have abandoned all pretense of helping the Krogan and instead have utilized the Rachni if the game hadn't wiped them out off camera. The queen has been preparing her forces for the past two years enough so that the sheer amount of them, though corrupted by the Reapers into Ravengers, saw galactic-wide deployment. The Geth, who were the other species with direct knowledge of the threat posed by the Reapers, couldn't even manage that; instead piddling around trying to create a Dyson Sphere, in the middle of the Quarian home system no less. The queen asks for no restitutions of past wrongs, nor does she beg out of the fighting once freed from Reaper captivity. She instantly sets to work helping the rest of the galaxy in whatever way she can the moment she is rescued (both in ME 1 and in ME 3) and she does this without any demands of new worlds to inhabit once the fighting is over. Wrex, despite his promises to Shepard, only deigns to help the galaxy after they effectively put the war with the Reapers on hold so they can play doctor. In many ways both he and the Dalatress are nearly identical in how they approach the Reaper invasion coming to kill everyone.
Even excusing the dubious politics, and assuming that the Genophage was no issue to begin with, I still would rather have the Rachni as the ground forces over the Krogan for several logistical reasons; not the least of which would be their short gestation period. The Queen had enough troops within two years to fight a war on a galactic scale. Even if the Genophage had been cured there is no way the Krogan could match the sheer amount of soldiers; who are literally born combat ready; the Rachni could offer the united forces of the Milky Way. Add on to that innate weapons and armor, on par with modern technology, the ability to survive in extreme environments indefinitely without the need for a space suit, and an organic quantum entanglement network that could exist outside of supply lines makes the Rachni far more suited to the type of fighting the Reaper invasion would inevitably result in should the hostilities drag out.
I suppose that is one of the major reasons why the writers felt the need to reduce the importance of the Rachni so much in game three. No one in their right mind would bother with jumping through hoops with the Krogan when presented with a superior combat force that demanded no such ultimatums for their aid. Really, if for no other reason, I would have loved to be given the choice of Rachni ground forces over Krogan forces to take the bluster out of Wrex's sails and force him back to the negotiating table with more reasonable terms.
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 15, 2018 17:33:42 GMT
Without Palaven and the Turians it won't matter how many babies the Krogan can have. While true, I'm pretty sure the krogan knew that was the only time they'd have the leverage to get the genophage cured. Sure, anyone could promise anything "after the war". But what happens when the war is actually over? "Oh, shit, the galaxy has been decimated. Can't risk curing the genophage and having them take over while we're all weakened." Do you even doubt that would be true? Whether or not you think the genophage should be cured, the fact is it's unlikely it would happen post-war. As for the Rachni, they are the only species in the entire galaxy to take the warning of the Reapers seriously and prepare accordingly (writers' fiat notwithstanding). Eh. The rachni have some kind of racial memory that's passed down from queen to queen. It may not be a perfect accounting but the rachni knew something powerful had influenced their actions in the past (could have been Leviathan). How did they prepare? The queen wanted babies to propagate the species since it was on the verge of extinction. Nothing suggests they were preparing for the Reaper invasion.
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Post by sil on Oct 15, 2018 17:42:38 GMT
Without Palaven and the Turians it won't matter how many babies the Krogan can have. While true, I'm pretty sure the krogan knew that was the only time they'd have the leverage to get the genophage cured. Sure, anyone could promise anything "after the war". But what happens when the war is actually over? "Oh, shit, the galaxy has been decimated. Can't risk curing the genophage and having them take over while we're all weakened." Do you even doubt that would be true? Whether or not you think the genophage should be cured, the fact is it's unlikely it would happen post-war. As for the Rachni, they are the only species in the entire galaxy to take the warning of the Reapers seriously and prepare accordingly (writers' fiat notwithstanding). Eh. The rachni have some kind of racial memory that's passed down from queen to queen. It may not be a perfect accounting but the rachni knew something powerful had influenced their actions in the past (could have been Leviathan). How did they prepare? The queen wanted babies to propagate the species since it was on the verge of extinction. Nothing suggests they were preparing for the Reaper invasion. The Rachni were preparing, its made clear in ME2 when the Queen says she'll help cleanse the galaxy of the Reapers with Shepard. Not only that, but the Rachni were building a fleet and their ships had been spotted a few times.
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 15, 2018 17:46:03 GMT
The Rachni were preparing, its made clear in ME2 when the Queen says she'll help cleanse the galaxy of the Reapers with Shepard. Not only that, but the Rachni were building a fleet and their ships had been spotted a few times. Ah, okay. Forgot what her message said - assuming she was alive to say it.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 15, 2018 19:01:34 GMT
Without Palaven and the Turians it won't matter how many babies the Krogan can have. While true, I'm pretty sure the krogan knew that was the only time they'd have the leverage to get the genophage cured. Sure, anyone could promise anything "after the war". But what happens when the war is actually over? "Oh, shit, the galaxy has been decimated. Can't risk curing the genophage and having them take over while we're all weakened." Do you even doubt that would be true? Whether or not you think the genophage should be cured, the fact is it's unlikely it would happen post-war. Sure the Krogan can push for the Genophage cure but what happens if, during the time we're off playing doctor, Palaven falls and the Turian navy is decimated? Now the Krogan get to watch thousands of their newborns die at the hands of the Reapers, or get turned into husks to fight them as they die a slow death. Besides, I'm sure people would be much more agreeable to helping the Krogan out post war if they displayed more altruism for their part in the fighting rather than holding the fate of the galaxy at proverbial gun point. Congratulations Wrex, you leveraged a cure for the Genophage. But, once the fighting stops, and the other species' leaders have had time to look back on your actions can you be sure that they'll be 'gifting' the Krogan new garden worlds to settle? Or will the result of your little stunt forcing the cure be seen as 'help enough'? On the flip side of that, look at the Rachni and their ending slide. For a species of scary space bugs; a species that the entire galaxy is fearful and distrustful of, a race of insect aliens that the rest of civilization would either shoot on sight or capture for scientific study; they seem to have no problem openly settling Tuckunka after the war. There's no sign of orbital bombardment, no evidence to suggest that the Rachni are hiding out on that world. Could it be that their actions to aid the rest of the galaxy, asking for nothing in return, garnered them a sizable amount of good will? Obviously there's no way to be entirely sure either way, but my money would be on an alliance formed on trust and altruism lasting far longer than one brought about by threat of omnicide.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 22:16:17 GMT
While true, I'm pretty sure the krogan knew that was the only time they'd have the leverage to get the genophage cured. Sure, anyone could promise anything "after the war". But what happens when the war is actually over? "Oh, shit, the galaxy has been decimated. Can't risk curing the genophage and having them take over while we're all weakened." Do you even doubt that would be true? Whether or not you think the genophage should be cured, the fact is it's unlikely it would happen post-war. Sure the Krogan can push for the Genophage cure but what happens if, during the time we're off playing doctor, Palaven falls and the Turian navy is decimated? Now the Krogan get to watch thousands of their newborns die at the hands of the Reapers, or get turned into husks to fight them as they die a slow death. Besides, I'm sure people would be much more agreeable to helping the Krogan out post war if they displayed more altruism for their part in the fighting rather than holding the fate of the galaxy at proverbial gun point. Congratulations Wrex, you leveraged a cure for the Genophage. But, once the fighting stops, and the other species' leaders have had time to look back on your actions can you be sure that they'll be 'gifting' the Krogan new garden worlds to settle? Or will the result of your little stunt forcing the cure be seen as 'help enough'? On the flip side of that, look at the Rachni and their ending slide. For a species of scary space bugs; a species that the entire galaxy is fearful and distrustful of, a race of insect aliens that the rest of civilization would either shoot on sight or capture for scientific study; they seem to have no problem openly settling Tuckunka after the war. There's no sign of orbital bombardment, no evidence to suggest that the Rachni are hiding out on that world. Could it be that their actions to aid the rest of the galaxy, asking for nothing in return, garnered them a sizable amount of good will? Obviously there's no way to be entirely sure either way, but my money would be on an alliance formed on trust and altruism lasting far longer than one brought about by threat of omnicide. You blame the Krogan for exterminating the Rachni, but they were doing it at the request of the Turians, Salarians, and Asari. Heck, the Salarians even uplifted them for that express purpose. As I said before, whether the Rachni are helpful or deceitful in ME3 depends completely on whether or not you saved or killed the Rachni Queen in ME1. Your only presenting 1/2 of the possibilities there.
Both the Turians and the Krogan need to display some altruism... and NEITHER is prepared to do so at that meeting. In addition, the Asari don't even show up and the Salarians are dead set against doing anything cooperatively with the Krogan. She won't even return a couple of Krogan citizens to their home world. The females are, in reality, her prisoners... subjects for further experimentation even when that experimentation is killing them. It's Mordin who feeds Wrex the information because Mordin wants to prevent the females from being experimented on to death. The Dalatrass says "don't repeat our mistake" to Shepard, but what are the Salarian's doing on Sur'Kesh? Experimenting with uplifting Varren and Yahg to fight on their command and against whoever they decide might be a threat to them... in essence, the Salarians are repeating their own mistake. Why aren't they uplifting docile species and turning them into enlightened artisans instead? Because they can't fight and exterminate the enemies of the Salarians for them.
So, you want Wrex to want into that meeting and are absolutely insisting he has to be the first one to unzip his fly? Sorry, there's an equal onus on the other two to show some good faith as well. A good first move would have been if the Dalatrass had just been forthcoming about the Krogan females and agreed right away to return them to their rightful home on Tuchanka. Also, if Wrex had of just point blank said "No, we won't help. We'll just defend our borders," he'd be sounding exactly the Asari... no better and no worse.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 15, 2018 22:40:00 GMT
Sure the Krogan can push for the Genophage cure but what happens if, during the time we're off playing doctor, Palaven falls and the Turian navy is decimated? Now the Krogan get to watch thousands of their newborns die at the hands of the Reapers, or get turned into husks to fight them as they die a slow death. Besides, I'm sure people would be much more agreeable to helping the Krogan out post war if they displayed more altruism for their part in the fighting rather than holding the fate of the galaxy at proverbial gun point. Congratulations Wrex, you leveraged a cure for the Genophage. But, once the fighting stops, and the other species' leaders have had time to look back on your actions can you be sure that they'll be 'gifting' the Krogan new garden worlds to settle? Or will the result of your little stunt forcing the cure be seen as 'help enough'? On the flip side of that, look at the Rachni and their ending slide. For a species of scary space bugs; a species that the entire galaxy is fearful and distrustful of, a race of insect aliens that the rest of civilization would either shoot on sight or capture for scientific study; they seem to have no problem openly settling Tuckunka after the war. There's no sign of orbital bombardment, no evidence to suggest that the Rachni are hiding out on that world. Could it be that their actions to aid the rest of the galaxy, asking for nothing in return, garnered them a sizable amount of good will? Obviously there's no way to be entirely sure either way, but my money would be on an alliance formed on trust and altruism lasting far longer than one brought about by threat of omnicide. You blame the Krogan for exterminating the Rachni, but they were doing it at the request of the Turians, Salarians, and Asari. Heck, the Salarians even uplifted them for that express purpose. As I said before, whether the Rachni are helpful or deceitful in ME3 depends completely on whether or not you saved or killed the Rachni Queen in ME1. Your only presenting 1/2 of the possibilities there.
Both the Turians and the Krogan need to display some altruism... and NEITHER is prepared to do so at that meeting. In addition, the Asari don't even show up and the Salarians are dead set against doing anything cooperatively with the Krogan. She won't even return a couple of Krogan citizens to their home world. The females are, in reality, her prisoners... subjects for further experimentation even when that experimentation is killing them. It's Mordin who feeds Wrex the information because Mordin wants to prevent the females from being experimented on to death. The Dalatrass says "don't repeat our mistake" to Shepard, but what are the Salarian's doing on Sur'Kesh? Experimenting with uplifting Varren and Yahg to fight on their command and against whoever they decide might be a threat to them... in essence, the Salarians are repeating their own mistake.
So, you want Wrex to want into that meeting and are absolutely insisting he has to be the first one to unzip his fly? Sorry, there's an equal onus on the other two to show some good faith as well. A good first move would have been if the Dalatrass had just been forthcoming about the Krogan females and agreed right away to return them to their rightful home on Tuchanka. Also, if Wrex had of just point blank said "No, we won't help. We'll just defend our borders," he'd be sounding exactly the Asari... no better and no worse.
Err...the Turians had nothing to do with the Rachni Wars.
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Post by burningcherry on Oct 15, 2018 22:49:46 GMT
It's Mordin who feeds Wrex the information because Mordin wants to prevent the females from being experimented on to death. Citation needed.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 22:53:34 GMT
You blame the Krogan for exterminating the Rachni, but they were doing it at the request of the Turians, Salarians, and Asari. Heck, the Salarians even uplifted them for that express purpose. As I said before, whether the Rachni are helpful or deceitful in ME3 depends completely on whether or not you saved or killed the Rachni Queen in ME1. Your only presenting 1/2 of the possibilities there.
Both the Turians and the Krogan need to display some altruism... and NEITHER is prepared to do so at that meeting. In addition, the Asari don't even show up and the Salarians are dead set against doing anything cooperatively with the Krogan. She won't even return a couple of Krogan citizens to their home world. The females are, in reality, her prisoners... subjects for further experimentation even when that experimentation is killing them. It's Mordin who feeds Wrex the information because Mordin wants to prevent the females from being experimented on to death. The Dalatrass says "don't repeat our mistake" to Shepard, but what are the Salarian's doing on Sur'Kesh? Experimenting with uplifting Varren and Yahg to fight on their command and against whoever they decide might be a threat to them... in essence, the Salarians are repeating their own mistake.
So, you want Wrex to want into that meeting and are absolutely insisting he has to be the first one to unzip his fly? Sorry, there's an equal onus on the other two to show some good faith as well. A good first move would have been if the Dalatrass had just been forthcoming about the Krogan females and agreed right away to return them to their rightful home on Tuchanka. Also, if Wrex had of just point blank said "No, we won't help. We'll just defend our borders," he'd be sounding exactly the Asari... no better and no worse.
Err...the Turians had nothing to do with the Rachni Wars. Weren't the Turians on the Council... and it's the Council that decided to set the Krogan on the Rachni.
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