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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 12, 2018 13:34:08 GMT
The Krogan. BioWare's go-to "victim" species.
The Quarians only wish they had the same level of sympathy generating 'feelz' devoted towards them throughout the trilogy (and even into Andromeda) that the Krogan received. Tali may throw herself off a cliff should Shepard side with the Geth, but only the Tuchunka narrative arc forces players to first shoot Mordin in the back, and then look Wrex in the eyes as they 'betray' him, all the while (un)subtly implying that one is monster if they should decide to not help this poor, downtrodden species.
If going by what the modern timeframe of the games tells us, the Krogan have been the galaxy's collective punching bag for absolutely no reason. That they have been the victim of unwarranted abuse and persecution through no fault of their own. Bioware even writes in comically racist caricatures like the Salarian Dalatrass and Director Tann just so we can have a one dimensional 'bad guy' rather than bother with nuanced approaches of what is a very checkered past.
Wrex or Morda weren't demanding unreasonable concessions during wholly inappropriate moments, but rather the rest of the people opposed to them just hated the Krogan and wanted to kick them when they were down. All of which is personified in shallow excuses for characters who's one single defining trait is: "Racist against the Krogan". It's not like the Krogan Rebellions devastated the galaxy for nearly a hundred years. Or the generally antagonistic and violent approach Krogan typically take with the rest of the galaxy since then. No, the rest of interstellar society is simply racist for looking at them warily; according to in-game bias.
Clearly, actual genetic pre-disposistions to violence, such as the Blood Rage, should be overlooked because treating them differently would be tantamount to discrimination. Krogan actions such as redirecting asteroids to wipe out multiple (as in more than one) Turian garden worlds; dextro planets which are relatively rare in the galaxy as well as generally being heavily populated; is brushed aside in favor of casting the Turian's as authoritarian jailers who unjustly placed a secret bomb on Tuckunka. Forget that the Hierarchy wasn't even a part of the government the Krogan were rebelling against when they began attacking them, instead focus on how the oppressive Turian military patrols the Krogan DMZ thus hindering Krogan development.
Ignore how the Krogan literally ate their captives alive during the rebellions; enough so that the action is widely known and is now considered an insult to the Salarian and Turians. Rather focus on how evil those two aliens were when they deployed the Genophage. It wasn't used as a means to conclude hostilities in as non-violent way as possible; to stop a hostile force that previously had no intention of ending the conflict until either they or the rest of the galaxy was dead. No, instead it was the work of mad scientists and warmongers who merely wanted the Krogan to suffer.
The fact that many Krogan are still alive from the time of the Rebellions, such as the Patriarch (who is a veteran of the Rachni Wars) or Nakmor Drack, individuals who actively participated in the fighting is a misnomer too. Despite being only one to two generations removed from the conclusion to the fighting the rebellions are 'ancient history'; and things like the Genophage shouldn't be used to 'punish' a people who had nothing to do with the reasons for it's deployment.
The game even selectively chooses to ignore Krogan biology when it's convenient to fit the "perpetual victim narrative". Clearly, being an R rated, predatory, and highly aggressive species who are all biologically immortal isn't a problem in long term population growth. The fact that the Krogan were doing nothing on their own to curb their explosive birthrate; indeed even using their superior numbers as a war tactic, simply smothering the opposing side with waves of useless cannon fodder; shouldn't be an issue either. Furthermore, the ecologically devastated planets left in their wake aren't an obvious indication that they can't be trusted to handle resource management and industrial development. No the Council was simply being racist when they refused to give the clans a pristine (and already inhabited) colony world; even having the gall to ask the Krogan to please cease their soft invasion and withdraw rather than attacking them.
Turian and Salarian aid for the Krogan living on Tuchunka post rebellion is conveniently ignored as well. Obviously things like constant food deliveries from the patrolling Turian forces and the presence of the Salarian-made Shroud (the only thing keeping that radioactive dustball even remotely livable) are just signs of oppression and discrimination. Those patches of green seen growing on Tuchunka's surface in Mass Effect 3 aren't the result of the Shroud slowly terraforming conditions back from the Krogan's self-inflicted nuclear holocaust, but rather the 'Krogan spirit' revitalizing their homeworld with no outside interference.
Wanting to be treated like any other species in the setting is what the Krogan want, but not if that means they have to be held accountable for previous actions. They want handouts from the rest of the galaxy in the form of restitutions that they 'deserve'. They are tired of being treated like children, yet throw temper tantrums and complain when things don't go their way.
And BioWare can't seem to get away from writing the same narrative for them game after game.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 13, 2018 21:51:42 GMT
Krogans or at least Wrex are shown to actually be attempting to change the Krogan people away from what they were. That is were the sympathy comes from. Otherwise it is the same sob story from every race. We did nothing wrong. Everyone who thinks we are doing wrong are just not getting it.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 14, 2018 12:40:50 GMT
Krogans or at least Wrex are shown to actually be attempting to change the Krogan people away from what they were. That is were the sympathy comes from. Otherwise it is the same sob story from every race. We did nothing wrong. Everyone who thinks we are doing wrong are just not getting it. Maybe ME 1&2 Wrex, who was attempting to rebuild the Krogan in spite of the Genophage, but ME 3 Wrex merely wanted to go back to the status quo via handouts. But aside from that there is a major discrepancy in the amount of sympathy generated for the Krogan versus any other species in the setting, even more than the Quarians and the Geth. The Turians don't have a 'sob story' during the trilogy; instead they are all nearly declared villains on par with Cerberus during the Tuchunka bomb side mission. The Hanar don't have a 'sob story' either; they get turned into a comedic caricature in the form of Blasto instead. And the Salarians have the least amount of sympathy given towards them, indeed ME 3 goes out of it's way to demonize all but a handful of individuals; a species of mad scientists lead by a racist cartoon villain.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 14, 2018 13:29:14 GMT
Krogans or at least Wrex are shown to actually be attempting to change the Krogan people away from what they were. That is were the sympathy comes from. Otherwise it is the same sob story from every race. We did nothing wrong. Everyone who thinks we are doing wrong are just not getting it. Maybe ME 1&2 Wrex, who was attempting to rebuild the Krogan in spite of the Genophage, but ME 3 Wrex merely wanted to go back to the status quo via handouts. But aside from that there is a major discrepancy in the amount of sympathy generated for the Krogan versus any other species in the setting, even more than the Quarians and the Geth. The Turians don't have a 'sob story' during the trilogy; instead they are all nearly declared villains on par with Cerberus during the Tuchunka bomb side mission. The Hanar don't have a 'sob story' either; they get turned into a comedic caricature in the form of Blasto instead. And the Salarians have the least amount of sympathy given towards them, indeed ME 3 goes out of it's way to demonize all but a handful of individuals; a species of mad scientists lead by a racist cartoon villain. Wrex's activities have been consistent from ME 1-3. In every case he still thinks and acts like a Krogan but doesn't want to follow the same path of self destruction as in the past. Krogans are drying for the galaxy asking for a garden planet or two to have their society rebuild and grow on instead of trying to do it on a bombed out waste land that can barely support life isn't asking for a hand out. It is far closer to expecting a pay check then a hand out for services rendered.
Turians get labeled a villain because they over react with force to early human explorers who had no idea about the Rachni and the war they caused. The Turians catch heat about the bomb because they simply abandoned it/left it lightly guarded which allowed Cerberus to find it, attack it and almost utilize it to cripple the Krogan's participation in the war.
Hanar do get their own sob story in ME 1 with the preacher guy not understanding why he is getting in trouble thinking he shouldn't need a permit. The Volus also get their own bit in ME 1 with the idea they get side lined despite their massive effects on the Council and aligned specie's economy set up. But of course those were more or less abandoned after the first game and species like Hanar and Volus side lined to pretty much background characters compared to the main group of Human, Asari, Quarian, Turian, Krogan and Salarian.
Salarians as a whole are not demonized. Those that are demonized are done so because of their actions. The Daletrass is only bad if you don't agree with her. Her under handed moves to try and get you to destroy the cure is exactly how the Salarian's deal with stuff. They are not the strongest nor toughest race in the galaxy. But they are one the smartest so they try to deal with issues indirectly if they can. That has been their characteristics since the first game.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 14, 2018 15:13:40 GMT
Maybe ME 1&2 Wrex, who was attempting to rebuild the Krogan in spite of the Genophage, but ME 3 Wrex merely wanted to go back to the status quo via handouts. But aside from that there is a major discrepancy in the amount of sympathy generated for the Krogan versus any other species in the setting, even more than the Quarians and the Geth. The Turians don't have a 'sob story' during the trilogy; instead they are all nearly declared villains on par with Cerberus during the Tuchunka bomb side mission. The Hanar don't have a 'sob story' either; they get turned into a comedic caricature in the form of Blasto instead. And the Salarians have the least amount of sympathy given towards them, indeed ME 3 goes out of it's way to demonize all but a handful of individuals; a species of mad scientists lead by a racist cartoon villain. Wrex's activities have been consistent from ME 1-3. In every case he still thinks and acts like a Krogan but doesn't want to follow the same path of self destruction as in the past. Krogans are drying for the galaxy asking for a garden planet or two to have their society rebuild and grow on instead of trying to do it on a bombed out waste land that can barely support life isn't asking for a hand out. It is far closer to expecting a pay check then a hand out for services rendered.
Turians get labeled a villain because they over react with force to early human explorers who had no idea about the Rachni and the war they caused. The Turians catch heat about the bomb because they simply abandoned it/left it lightly guarded which allowed Cerberus to find it, attack it and almost utilize it to cripple the Krogan's participation in the war.
Hanar do get their own sob story in ME 1 with the preacher guy not understanding why he is getting in trouble thinking he shouldn't need a permit. The Volus also get their own bit in ME 1 with the idea they get side lined despite their massive effects on the Council and aligned specie's economy set up. But of course those were more or less abandoned after the first game and species like Hanar and Volus side lined to pretty much background characters compared to the main group of Human, Asari, Quarian, Turian, Krogan and Salarian.
Salarians as a whole are not demonized. Those that are demonized are done so because of their actions. The Daletrass is only bad if you don't agree with her. Her under handed moves to try and get you to destroy the cure is exactly how the Salarian's deal with stuff. They are not the strongest nor toughest race in the galaxy. But they are one the smartest so they try to deal with issues indirectly if they can. That has been their characteristics since the first game.
I would disagree with Wrex's consistency, but then that is a common problem for characters as the trilogy has gone on. Especially from game 2 to game 3. As for the Krogan demanding 'compensation' for their participation in the war, I thought that was supposed to be the Genophage cure? Since ME 3 Wrex made it abundantly clear that he would rather let the rest of the galaxy burn; despite his previous promises to Shepard; than lift a finger to fight, unless his demand of a cure was met, I would think that "free planets" would be outside the scope of his negotiations. Besides, the Krogan have already demonstrated that they aren't exactly the best caretakers of garden worlds what with the state of Tuchunka, the ecologically devastated planets they were given after the Rachni Wars, and the now uninhabitable Turian garden worlds they dropped asteroids on. Couple that with their demonstrated lack of self-induced population control, and why would they expect to receive pristine garden worlds after the war? What about the Batarians? Or Elcor? Or Turians? They all would be in need of new garden worlds as well I don't think that the Krogan would be more deserving of such things. The actions of the First Contact War have nothing to do with the current points of discussion. Besides, what animosity there is would be between humanity and the hierarchy. On to the topic of the bomb, how else were they expect to defend it when the Krogan had demonstrated that they would gladly attack any non-Krogan presence on the surface of Tuchunka? The only reason Shepard and company weren't assailed when they landed was because Wrex vouched for them (ME 2&3), how would a group of hated Turian soldiers fare if they were spotted guarding a point on the planet? The fact that Cerberus had plot armor that somehow allowed them to magic their way into highly classified Turian information is a misnomer because they do that repeatedly throughout the game. Inescapably showing up on Sur'Kesh, laying siege to the Citadel, and teleporting to Thessia, etc. If we are going to blame the Turians for Cerberus finding out about the bomb than we have to blame the rest of the galaxy for everything else they managed to pull off thanks to their "(lead) writer's pet" status. And yes, all the more interesting aliens were shoved into the background to where only the "Big Five" (most human-like) aliens remained. Out of those five though it was the Krogan, followed at some distance by the Quarians, who received the most in-game sympathy. For instance, there is no option for players to approach the topic of the Genophage from anything resembling a stance that: "it was a necessary evil, brought about because of unrelenting Krogan aggression" whereas the game gives Shepard ample opportunity to berate the Quarians for the Morning War, the Turians for the First Contact War, and the Salarians for being "underhanded cowards". Even when deciding against the Krogan in ME 3, the game doesn't frame Shepard in acting against Wrex/Werve because he/she is against the Genophage cure, but rather wanting Salarian naval support. The Krogan are the games' sacred cow and players aren't allowed to directly say anything bad about them because of the underlying bias. Renegade Shepard can say that the Reaper invasion of Kahjahe is something the Hanar "brought upon themselves", can get in the Dalatrass's face for being racist, even punch Admiral Garall (sp?) in the stomach over Rannoch, but they can't call out Wrex for reneging on his previous arrangement, or say how pushing for a Genophage cure, putting the defense against the Reapers on hold, is a bad idea. And the Salarians are demonized, save for the "good ones". Mordin Solus/Paddock Wiks and Major Kerahie (sp?), if he is still alive, are the only Salarians that Shepard speaks favorably of. The Dalatrass is snubbed, obviously, but then so are the rest of the base personal on Sur'Kesh and the planet as a whole. Shepard stands by while Wrex insults guards by asking them how good they would taste, insinuating that he would want to eat them; a pretty serious racial insult, given the established background of the Krogan Rebellions and their well known actions against prisoners, but the game plays it off for laughs. Later, Shepard and crew will make snide remarks about how pristine Sur'Kesh is, at how because the Reapers haven't touched it yet the Salarians are somehow untrustworthy allies. Afterwords, when the covert uplifting of the Yagh is seen, Shepard will even go so far as to say that he/she hopes the Salarians are hurt bad during the Reaper invasion, that they are hit with cosmic karma for their actions. Which is ironic considering that humans are the ones actively working for the Reapers (i.e. Cerberus), but the Salarians doing what they can to fight the invasion is a damnable offense.
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Post by sil on Sept 14, 2018 18:59:27 GMT
I agree wholeheartedly. I wish we had more options to speak to Wrex about why the genophage was necessary and at least try to convince him to find some method to curb their habits if the war is won.
And I definitely agree with your comment about how all the races except the main five get pushed aside. They went one step further with Andromeda and didn't include any of the others. And the sad thing is... those races are some of the most alien species in the setting and ripe for exploration and expansion. For example, we get hints at the darker side of the hanar through their sly trading with the batarians and their training of children to become perfect assassins, but beyond that we don't get much of an exploration of them and thats a big shame. Some other races have it worse, elcor barely even get shown in ME3 and their plot gets reduced down to a galaxy scanning assignment, at least the hanar and volus got a Citadel side quest to do.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 14, 2018 19:39:50 GMT
I agree wholeheartedly. I wish we had more options to speak to Wrex about why the genophage was necessary and at least try to convince him to find some method to curb their habits if the war is won. And I definitely agree with your comment about how all the races except the main five get pushed aside. They went one step further with Andromeda and didn't include any of the others. And the sad thing is... those races are some of the most alien species in the setting and ripe for exploration and expansion. For example, we get hints at the darker side of the hanar through their sly trading with the batarians and their training of children to become perfect assassins, but beyond that we don't get much of an exploration of them and thats a big shame. Some other races have it worse, elcor barely even get shown in ME3 and their plot gets reduced down to a galaxy scanning assignment, at least the hanar and volus got a Citadel side quest to do. What is especially annoying about that is Wrex refuses to see his people as doing any wrong leading up to and during the Rebellions. He takes such a generalized (and factually incorrect) stance such as: "To thank us for wiping out the Rachni the Council neutered us all." That is not how the course of events transpired, yet players aren't abel to question that narrow-minded train of thought and instead must accept his bias. This is made even more troubling when the narrative puts Wrex as the de-facto leader of the Krogan race. The game makes it a point to paint groups like Terra Firma in dubious light, for having a mindset unsuited for interstellar society, yet seems completely fine with a similar viewpoint being held by Wrex as he leads the Krogan. How is believing that everyone else around you is wrong and/or racist towards you going to help the Krogan when they have to negotiate with the other races? If he truly believes that the Krogan did no wrong, what's to stop him from making similar mistakes in the future? Agreed on the forgotten aliens of the setting. The Hanar, Elcor, Rachni, Thorian, (ME 2 era) Geth, and even the Volus to a certain extent, were all far more interesting and compelling when we first saw them compared to the humans in rubber masks the "Big Five" races have become. There is so much potential story to be had with the 'alien' aliens yet BioWare seems to be stuck on rehashing old plot lines for the fan favorites. The Krogan in Andromeda are once again beset by racist colleges in the not-Council Initiative for absolutely no reason, and once again must be convinced to help save the day for the galaxy helius cluster. Real original storytelling there. I too suspect that the Hanar are far more than meets the eye. That they adopt a sense of helplessness to the outside galaxy as 'Big Stupid Jellyfish' to make potential enemies underestimate them. After all Zaeed was almost choked to death by a Hanar, and they are the ones training the Drell as assassins so they obviously have knowledge and skills in those areas. The Elcor are another potential storytelling gold mine what with their immense strength (more than even the Krogan) and intrinsic ability to read emotions; and tell if someone is lying if a human smile is as subtle as a fireworks display. And let's not forget the Rachni. An ingrained talent for engineering and architecture, literal born warriors, incredible survivability (moreso than the Krogan) and a leader that if spared, is apologetic for past wrongs and seeks to make amends.
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Post by copper on Sept 14, 2018 21:08:07 GMT
I don't have much to add, but I agree. Wrex never survives ME1 in my games anymore, if only to allow Shepard to be suspicious of Wreav during the Tuchanka arc in ME3. I'd rather the game allow you to sympathize more with the salarians to begin with, but I'll take what I can get here.
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Post by Upggrade on Sept 14, 2018 22:06:10 GMT
And let's not forget, the genophage was very carefully calculated to NOT wipe them out. If they would stop killing each other they would be fine.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 15, 2018 2:49:18 GMT
I don't have much to add, but I agree. Wrex never survives ME1 in my games anymore, if only to allow Shepard to be suspicious of Wreav during the Tuchanka arc in ME3. I'd rather the game allow you to sympathize more with the salarians to begin with, but I'll take what I can get here. That does give Shepard a reason to not cure the genophage. After all, Wreav can't be trusted. If you also don't save Maelon's data, Eve won't survive. Without Wrex and Eve it would likely be best to let the krogan die out (which is apparently what happens since the rachni take over Tuchanka). And let's not forget, the genophage was very carefully calculated to NOT wipe them out. If they would stop killing each other they would be fine. True, but they die anyway if the genophage isn't cured.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 15, 2018 3:08:09 GMT
Wrex's activities have been consistent from ME 1-3. In every case he still thinks and acts like a Krogan but doesn't want to follow the same path of self destruction as in the past. Krogans are drying for the galaxy asking for a garden planet or two to have their society rebuild and grow on instead of trying to do it on a bombed out waste land that can barely support life isn't asking for a hand out. It is far closer to expecting a pay check then a hand out for services rendered.
Turians get labeled a villain because they over react with force to early human explorers who had no idea about the Rachni and the war they caused. The Turians catch heat about the bomb because they simply abandoned it/left it lightly guarded which allowed Cerberus to find it, attack it and almost utilize it to cripple the Krogan's participation in the war.
Hanar do get their own sob story in ME 1 with the preacher guy not understanding why he is getting in trouble thinking he shouldn't need a permit. The Volus also get their own bit in ME 1 with the idea they get side lined despite their massive effects on the Council and aligned specie's economy set up. But of course those were more or less abandoned after the first game and species like Hanar and Volus side lined to pretty much background characters compared to the main group of Human, Asari, Quarian, Turian, Krogan and Salarian.
Salarians as a whole are not demonized. Those that are demonized are done so because of their actions. The Daletrass is only bad if you don't agree with her. Her under handed moves to try and get you to destroy the cure is exactly how the Salarian's deal with stuff. They are not the strongest nor toughest race in the galaxy. But they are one the smartest so they try to deal with issues indirectly if they can. That has been their characteristics since the first game.
I would disagree with Wrex's consistency, but then that is a common problem for characters as the trilogy has gone on. Especially from game 2 to game 3. As for the Krogan demanding 'compensation' for their participation in the war, I thought that was supposed to be the Genophage cure? Since ME 3 Wrex made it abundantly clear that he would rather let the rest of the galaxy burn; despite his previous promises to Shepard; than lift a finger to fight, unless his demand of a cure was met, I would think that "free planets" would be outside the scope of his negotiations. Besides, the Krogan have already demonstrated that they aren't exactly the best caretakers of garden worlds what with the state of Tuchunka, the ecologically devastated planets they were given after the Rachni Wars, and the now uninhabitable Turian garden worlds they dropped asteroids on. Couple that with their demonstrated lack of self-induced population control, and why would they expect to receive pristine garden worlds after the war? What about the Batarians? Or Elcor? Or Turians? They all would be in need of new garden worlds as well I don't think that the Krogan would be more deserving of such things. The actions of the First Contact War have nothing to do with the current points of discussion. Besides, what animosity there is would be between humanity and the hierarchy. On to the topic of the bomb, how else were they expect to defend it when the Krogan had demonstrated that they would gladly attack any non-Krogan presence on the surface of Tuchunka? The only reason Shepard and company weren't assailed when they landed was because Wrex vouched for them (ME 2&3), how would a group of hated Turian soldiers fare if they were spotted guarding a point on the planet? The fact that Cerberus had plot armor that somehow allowed them to magic their way into highly classified Turian information is a misnomer because they do that repeatedly throughout the game. Inescapably showing up on Sur'Kesh, laying siege to the Citadel, and teleporting to Thessia, etc. If we are going to blame the Turians for Cerberus finding out about the bomb than we have to blame the rest of the galaxy for everything else they managed to pull off thanks to their "(lead) writer's pet" status. And yes, all the more interesting aliens were shoved into the background to where only the "Big Five" (most human-like) aliens remained. Out of those five though it was the Krogan, followed at some distance by the Quarians, who received the most in-game sympathy. For instance, there is no option for players to approach the topic of the Genophage from anything resembling a stance that: "it was a necessary evil, brought about because of unrelenting Krogan aggression" whereas the game gives Shepard ample opportunity to berate the Quarians for the Morning War, the Turians for the First Contact War, and the Salarians for being "underhanded cowards". Even when deciding against the Krogan in ME 3, the game doesn't frame Shepard in acting against Wrex/Werve because he/she is against the Genophage cure, but rather wanting Salarian naval support. The Krogan are the games' sacred cow and players aren't allowed to directly say anything bad about them because of the underlying bias. Renegade Shepard can say that the Reaper invasion of Kahjahe is something the Hanar "brought upon themselves", can get in the Dalatrass's face for being racist, even punch Admiral Garall (sp?) in the stomach over Rannoch, but they can't call out Wrex for reneging on his previous arrangement, or say how pushing for a Genophage cure, putting the defense against the Reapers on hold, is a bad idea. And the Salarians are demonized, save for the "good ones". Mordin Solus/Paddock Wiks and Major Kerahie (sp?), if he is still alive, are the only Salarians that Shepard speaks favorably of. The Dalatrass is snubbed, obviously, but then so are the rest of the base personal on Sur'Kesh and the planet as a whole. Shepard stands by while Wrex insults guards by asking them how good they would taste, insinuating that he would want to eat them; a pretty serious racial insult, given the established background of the Krogan Rebellions and their well known actions against prisoners, but the game plays it off for laughs. Later, Shepard and crew will make snide remarks about how pristine Sur'Kesh is, at how because the Reapers haven't touched it yet the Salarians are somehow untrustworthy allies. Afterwords, when the covert uplifting of the Yagh is seen, Shepard will even go so far as to say that he/she hopes the Salarians are hurt bad during the Reaper invasion, that they are hit with cosmic karma for their actions. Which is ironic considering that humans are the ones actively working for the Reapers (i.e. Cerberus), but the Salarians doing what they can to fight the invasion is a damnable offense. Negotiation and demanding not quite the same thing. Wrex demands the cure before the Krogan pledge to help because it is the only point in time the Krogan will have the leverage needed to make that demand and actually have a chance at it being done. Wrex was shown to be in negotiation with Council over giving the Krogan a garden planet for themselves and were hesitant about it. Given Wrex makes a comment about how stubborn the Council is being. The Krogan bombing their own planet into a barren waste land is exactly the history Wrex wants to avoid. The obsession with war is the history Eve wants to avoid. The over population was the result of their obsession with fighting and death. Though how well they will manage their population on their own is questionable. The lack of children would certainly make children more precious in their eyes and less simply a mass that can be replaced if killed. Which is the idea their ancestors had due to development on their home world. And given the Genophage literally altered their DNA it is well within the realm of possibility that the cure will not restore them to their former state of having dozens of kids at a time. Possibly reducing the number of eggs laid to only a couple at a time. Which would solve the major aspect of over population problems with Krogan.
How did the Salarian group Mordin was a part of sneak onto the planet to conduct tests on the Krogan to engineer a new form of the Genophage after they Krogan started to adapt to it? The Krogan didn't know about the bomb at all so hiding strike forces or at least removing the bomb if they planned to abandon it would be more then possible. And the bomb has been on Tuchunka since the Krogan Rebellion ended so it would have more then enough time for a group like Shadow Broker before Liara took over to have found out. And I do not doubt that TIM or one of his associates had regular dealings with the Shadow Broker. And Cerberus showing up on Sur'Kesh is stretching it but not outside the realm of possibility given Wrex was contacted from the planet about the females. If Cerberus was monitoring all communications to and from known Shepard associates they could have gotten it as well. Utilizing the same stealth tech they had when they build the SR-2 monitored the space and altered TIM when Normandy showed up.
Been a while but I am pretty sure during Mordin's loyalty mission you have the option of taking a pro Genophage stance. Supporting Mordin that it was necessary and a good thing. ME3 allows you to continue that by out right sabotaging the cure or killing Mordin who wants to cure it. The Dalatrass's entire argument was that the Krogan are inherently brutal violent beings that will only resort back to the same actions that caused the Genophage to become necessary if cured. Which is continuing the pro Genophage stance you can take. She offers the help of the Salarian ships under her command as extra reason.
I don't remember the Hanar brought it on themselves line from the game though I would assume that was from when the one Hanar attempted to disable the planet's defense systems. Dalatrass can be called racist after she basically comments that the krogan are no more then animals which is in fact racist. Admiral Grall gets punched in the stomach after he launches an all out attack on the disabled Geth Dreadnought and almost kills Shepard. Wrex or Wreav demanding a cure for Krogan participation is simply asking payment for them to work. Much in the same way soldiers get a pay check and benefits when they join the army. Turians are not willing to help without Krogan support. Krogan are not willing to help unless they cure the fertility issue that makes having babies difficult and effectively shattered and destroyed any semblance of Krogan culture.
Oh you mean the entire base full of spies in a top secret base are not happy to lucky lets greet everyone and bake them a cake while giving them the grand tour mood? Got to remember dude the base we land on on Sur'Kesh was basically the Salarian version of a CIA black site. Pretty sure if you flew a plane and some how landed in Area 51 you wouldn't' be met with cake and sparklers. You would be met with guns, more guns, handcuffs, a black bag over your head and maybe some water boarding.
Yes Shepard stands by because that is what Wrex is like. Shepard knows Wrex well enough to know he is simply exaggerating because that is how he is. Seriously if your argument is loud mouth guy likes to talk like a loud mouth guy you don't have much ground to stand on in that case.
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Post by copper on Sept 15, 2018 4:47:12 GMT
I don't have much to add, but I agree. Wrex never survives ME1 in my games anymore, if only to allow Shepard to be suspicious of Wreav during the Tuchanka arc in ME3. I'd rather the game allow you to sympathize more with the salarians to begin with, but I'll take what I can get here. That does give Shepard a reason to not cure the genophage. After all, Wreav can't be trusted. If you also don't save Maelon's data, Eve won't survive. Without Wrex and Eve it would likely be best to let the krogan die out (which is apparently what happens since the rachni take over Tuchanka). And let's not forget, the genophage was very carefully calculated to NOT wipe them out. If they would stop killing each other they would be fine. True, but they die anyway if the genophage isn't cured. Oh yeah, there's definitely reason to distrust Wreav. Thing is, I would have liked both for the salarian delatross to be a bit more three dimensional as well as an option to distrust Wrex. The game doesn't support that very well. Wrex, similar to Liara and Garrus, is always Shepard's bro if he's alive.
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Post by aoibhealfae on Sept 15, 2018 6:03:41 GMT
Since when Krogan get white privilege of not being accountable?
Its a species that get a thousand and half years of genocide. There's a thing called circle of violence and people being kept in barbarism and labor. The Council races only want Krogan as cannon fodders. The Turian Primarch seeks Krogan alliance because he know his people wouldn't stand the chance, they nearly lost to the Krogan and genocide virus is a cowardly act.
You can't doom an entire people simply because you see them as dumb moronic backward people who doesn't deserve to share the air you breath. That's xenophobia, plain and simple.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 15, 2018 7:00:01 GMT
You can't doom an entire people simply because you see them as dumb moronic backward people who doesn't deserve to share the air you breath. That's xenophobia, plain and simple. The krogan were given all worlds formerly belonging to the rachni. They were also given a number of garden worlds that had no colonists of any race. Thing is, the only thing that kept their birthrates intact was the harsh conditions on Tuchanka. Free of that, and with nothing killing them off, each female was giving birth to 1000 babies per year. To sustain themselves, they had to continue expanding. Then the krogan started colonizing worlds in the territory of other races, including an asari colony. Yes, that's right, they began to colonize a world that was already settled. The Council asked them to leave. The krogan refused. The a krogan warlord dared the Council to try to take back their worlds. Shockingly, war broke out. The Spectres played a major role in the war, using computer viruses to shut down the krogan systems. They also engaged in guerilla warfare. That's when the turians were employed to fight them. The krogan responded with attacks on turian worlds, using asteroids as weapons and rendering three planets totally uninhabitable. This is when the salarians came up with the genophage, though they were uncomfortable with using it. It was meant only to be a threat since it made them able only to successfully birth one out of a thousand. That would slow down their expansion a great deal. The turians had other ideas and released the genophage. That, combined with the turians making a strong push since the krogan could no longer replenish their numbers, causing their defeat. This is not simply racism. This was survival. It's easy to see why anyone would be comfortable with curing the genophage, since there's no reason to believe they won't do the same thing all over again. Even with Wrex and Eve in control, there's nothing to stop some rogue krogan going off somewhere and being a colony that starts to expand. The whole idea of curing them is dangerous. In fact, even if they don't go against Wrex and Eve, they won't live forever and expansion isn't all that unlikely in one or two thousand years in the future.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 15, 2018 10:44:19 GMT
You can't doom an entire people simply because you see them as dumb moronic backward people who doesn't deserve to share the air you breath. That's xenophobia, plain and simple. The krogan were given all worlds formerly belonging to the rachni. They were also given a number of garden worlds that had no colonists of any race. Thing is, the only thing that kept their birthrates intact was the harsh conditions on Tuchanka. Free of that, and with nothing killing them off, each female was giving birth to 1000 babies per year. To sustain themselves, they had to continue expanding. Then the krogan started colonizing worlds in the territory of other races, including an asari colony. Yes, that's right, they began to colonize a world that was already settled. The Council asked them to leave. The krogan refused. The a krogan warlord dared the Council to try to take back their worlds. Shockingly, war broke out. The Spectres played a major role in the war, using computer viruses to shut down the krogan systems. They also engaged in guerilla warfare. That's when the turians were employed to fight them. The krogan responded with attacks on turian worlds, using asteroids as weapons and rendering three planets totally uninhabitable. This is when the salarians came up with the genophage, though they were uncomfortable with using it. It was meant only to be a threat since it made them able only to successfully birth one out of a thousand. That would slow down their expansion a great deal. The turians had other ideas and released the genophage. That, combined with the turians making a strong push since the krogan could no longer replenish their numbers, causing their defeat. This is not simply racism. This was survival. It's easy to see why anyone would be comfortable with curing the genophage, since there's no reason to believe they won't do the same thing all over again. Even with Wrex and Eve in control, there's nothing to stop some rogue krogan going off somewhere and being a colony that starts to expand. The whole idea of curing them is dangerous. In fact, even if they don't go against Wrex and Eve, they won't live forever and expansion isn't all that unlikely in one or two thousand years in the future. All of that was done shortly after uplifting them from their bombed out waste land of a planet without allowing them time to mature as a species. It is pretty much a classic case of why Star Trek developed the Prime Directive.
Cue to time frame game takes place all Krogan off planet tend to be a bit gruff and aggressive by other species standards but other then that are able to integrate into galactic society. The ones on the planet seem to be the vast majority having never left Tuchunka. So old resentments and the fact it is a struggle daily just to survive while the other races seem to live in paradise compared to Tuchunka are resentful and pissed at them.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 15, 2018 19:37:51 GMT
I don't have much to add, but I agree. Wrex never survives ME1 in my games anymore, if only to allow Shepard to be suspicious of Wreav during the Tuchanka arc in ME3. I'd rather the game allow you to sympathize more with the salarians to begin with, but I'll take what I can get here. That does give Shepard a reason to not cure the genophage. After all, Wreav can't be trusted. If you also don't save Maelon's data, Eve won't survive. Without Wrex and Eve it would likely be best to let the krogan die out (which is apparently what happens since the rachni take over Tuchanka). And let's not forget, the genophage was very carefully calculated to NOT wipe them out. If they would stop killing each other they would be fine. True, but they die anyway if the genophage isn't cured. It's disappointing that such measures have to be taken to get something resembling a balanced take on the Krogan and Genophage debate. I typically don't go that route; partially because I always try to keep all the companion characters alive as a form of habit, but also because I really don't care for the 'off-brand' replacements we get in game three should one of said companions die. The Councial's B-Team, Padox Wiks, Wreve, and not-Legion are rather cheap knock offs awkwardly shoved into the narrative at the last minute (IMO). But aside from that, yes Wreve is the typical Krogan we would expect to see. Bitter, wanting revenge and glory, and fully willing to recreate the Krogan Rebellions. Not quite the shining example of a reformed Krogan. As to the second point, that's one of the many things I dislike about the bias surrounding the Krogan and the Genophage (plus being the only way to see the Rachni in an ending slide). All the Genophage did was lower the Krogan birthrate to pre-industrial levels. It wasn't a sterility plague; though the writing just had to squeeze in the whole thing with stillbirths so as to make it seem as cruel and barbaric as possible. Dwindling population levels are due to Krogan in-fighting and fatalism, not the Genophage. If all anyone is concerned about is dead babies then where is the outcry for the staggering losses the Krogan experienced before they industrialized? The ratio is exactly the same. There is no reason for the Krogan to go extinct, and there is more than enough of them to maintain a sizable population, but the narrative can't just let the debate of cure vs. no cure play out in a neutral light. No, they have to throw in the ending slide of dead Krogan to drive home how wrong your choice was; at how choosing to not cure them, the player is directly responsible for the death of an entire species. The Hanar, Elcor, and Rachni only wish they had that level of sympathy for them, should Shepard choose to kill their entire races. Hell, the game even lets Renegade Shepard gloat about dead Hanar and Rachni in off handed remarks, but then forces that same heartless Renegade to look sad when choosing to sabotage the cure.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 15, 2018 23:59:46 GMT
It's disappointing that such measures have to be taken to get something resembling a balanced take on the Krogan and Genophage debate. I typically don't go that route; partially because I always try to keep all the companion characters alive as a form of habit, but also because I really don't care for the 'off-brand' replacements we get in game three should one of said companions die. The Councial's B-Team, Padox Wiks, Wreve, and not-Legion are rather cheap knock offs awkwardly shoved into the narrative at the last minute (IMO). But aside from that, yes Wreve is the typical Krogan we would expect to see. Bitter, wanting revenge and glory, and fully willing to recreate the Krogan Rebellions. Not quite the shining example of a reformed Krogan. I'm actually the same. Wrex always survives until the end. However, I can see why people might feel different and can even come up with a list of reasons why the krogan can't be trusted - especially if Wrex and Eve are dead.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 16, 2018 20:35:00 GMT
I don't trust Wrex. He's just some pathetic krogan who believes his shotgun can fix everything for his species. In the truck, in ME3, he wants a new planet for helping. **** him. His species made no effort to prove they're a worthwhile species to have the genophage cured since it was implemented. All they did is mope around for over a thousand years doing nothing.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 16, 2018 23:19:45 GMT
I don't trust Wrex. He's just some pathetic krogan who believes his shotgun can fix everything for his species. In the truck, in ME3, he wants a new planet for helping. **** him. His species made no effort to prove they're a worthwhile species to have the genophage cured since it was implemented. All they did is mope around for over a thousand years doing nothing. I'm not quite as 'direct', but yes I find it hard to trust someone who's first reaction when things don't go his way is to pull a gun on you (ME 1 & 3). That, in addition to his refusal to see any Krogan culpability in the lead up to and during the Rebellions, makes me leery of him being the one in charge of his people. If I could pick, I would rather have Char being the head of the species. If any species worked to build trust and was a willing participant in the fight against the Reapers, no questions asked nor concessions demanded, it was the Rachni. After the stunt Wrex pulled in ME 3, despite clearly promising support for the coming war in ME 2, I trust the Rachni queen a hell of a lot more than I do him.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 16, 2018 23:23:17 GMT
The krogan were given all worlds formerly belonging to the rachni. They were also given a number of garden worlds that had no colonists of any race. Thing is, the only thing that kept their birthrates intact was the harsh conditions on Tuchanka. Free of that, and with nothing killing them off, each female was giving birth to 1000 babies per year. To sustain themselves, they had to continue expanding. Then the krogan started colonizing worlds in the territory of other races, including an asari colony. Yes, that's right, they began to colonize a world that was already settled. The Council asked them to leave. The krogan refused. The a krogan warlord dared the Council to try to take back their worlds. Shockingly, war broke out. The Spectres played a major role in the war, using computer viruses to shut down the krogan systems. They also engaged in guerilla warfare. That's when the turians were employed to fight them. The krogan responded with attacks on turian worlds, using asteroids as weapons and rendering three planets totally uninhabitable. This is when the salarians came up with the genophage, though they were uncomfortable with using it. It was meant only to be a threat since it made them able only to successfully birth one out of a thousand. That would slow down their expansion a great deal. The turians had other ideas and released the genophage. That, combined with the turians making a strong push since the krogan could no longer replenish their numbers, causing their defeat. This is not simply racism. This was survival. It's easy to see why anyone would be comfortable with curing the genophage, since there's no reason to believe they won't do the same thing all over again. Even with Wrex and Eve in control, there's nothing to stop some rogue krogan going off somewhere and being a colony that starts to expand. The whole idea of curing them is dangerous. In fact, even if they don't go against Wrex and Eve, they won't live forever and expansion isn't all that unlikely in one or two thousand years in the future. All of that was done shortly after uplifting them from their bombed out waste land of a planet without allowing them time to mature as a species. It is pretty much a classic case of why Star Trek developed the Prime Directive.
Cue to time frame game takes place all Krogan off planet tend to be a bit gruff and aggressive by other species standards but other then that are able to integrate into galactic society. The ones on the planet seem to be the vast majority having never left Tuchunka. So old resentments and the fact it is a struggle daily just to survive while the other races seem to live in paradise compared to Tuchunka are resentful and pissed at them.
This is a circular argument, one that changes to suit the Krogan bias. On one hand the slanted narrative says: "Don't blame the Krogan for the atrocities they committed during the Rebellions, they didn't know any better. It was the fault of those evil Salarians for uplifting them!" And then immeditly on the other hand it says: "How can the Council be so cruel to the Krogan? Why can't they let them stand on their own and integrate with society like everyone else!" Either they are too under developed as a species and they can't be trusted to manage their own affairs; such as dealing with aggression & population control. Or they are. And if so are subject to repercussions for their actions; both past and present.
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Post by nougat on Sept 20, 2018 5:38:05 GMT
Wrex, similar to Liara and Garrus, is always Shepard's bro if he's alive. Wrex's behavior towards Shepard is distinctly different (and more interesting and layered) if Shepard's unrepentant about Maelon data's deletion.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 20, 2018 12:29:20 GMT
Wrex, similar to Liara and Garrus, is always Shepard's bro if he's alive. Wrex's behavior towards Shepard is distinctly different (and more interesting and layered) if Shepard's unrepentant about Maelon data's deletion. It would have been nice if Shepard could get onto Wrex for reneging on his promised support in game three in response. As it is he/she casually stands aside as Wrex declares that no Krogan will help in the fighting until the Genophage is cured. Really makes me wish that the Rachni decision from ME 1 wasn't such a toss away choice that had zero impact on ME 3. Imagine if the Genophage arc was more like the Rannoch plot line, in that you have two equally valid options to choose from; with the option of recruiting both if Shepard played his/her cards right. Being able to come back at Wrex with your intentions of going with the Rachni queen, seeing as how she hasn't backed out on her promises, so as to get handouts, would take the wind out of his sails. It might actually force him to work with everyone rather than approaching things with a holier than thou, "anyone that disagrees with me is a racist" attitude.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Sept 20, 2018 12:44:28 GMT
Yeah, no... Volus, Hanar, and Elcor are not even close to being more interesting than the Salarians or Turians.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 20, 2018 12:50:38 GMT
Yeah, no... Volus, Hanar, and Elcor are not even close to being more interesting than the Salarians or Turians. Depends, the Salarians, Turians and Krogan got far more screen time and personalization than the Hanar, Elcor, or Rachni did. All things being equal it is quite possible that those "minor" species would have been on par with, if not surpassed, some of the other "major" races.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Sept 20, 2018 13:01:06 GMT
I think it's more a personal preference thing...
I don't care about anything that the hazmat suit economists are doing. So no matter how much fleshing out they do, I just don't care for them. Or even the rachni, I want nothing to do with them. The queen always dies in my games.
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