Basquemercat117
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Sept 25, 2018 22:11:25 GMT
So we have seen that general policy for civilian ships (more specifically diplomatic ships) for not to have any armament. There are alot of cases which is policy has back fired and gotten civilians plus diplomats killed. But from a lore perspective, should this be treated as a flaw in logic in universe (such as the argument with thermal clip vs overheating system) and is there any indications in the codex or other lore content that address this issue?
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Sept 25, 2018 23:28:28 GMT
I don't think it is a flaw in logic at all.
Much like planes, there are vastly more civilian/corporate unarmed spaceships than military/paramilitary/security armed spaceships. Unarmed ships getting attacked is likely a rare occurrence; Shepard just seemingly ends up having to deal with a few of them in the trilogy.
P.S. Thermal clips are better.
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Post by Radec on Sept 26, 2018 12:10:50 GMT
Given the prevalence of slavers in universe especially, it's my opinion that a spacecraft without armaments or armed guards on board is asking for trouble.
But it's not like it doesn't make any sense. Maybe Joe Smuggler is too cheap to put guns on his operation's freighters. Maybe he's a dumb pacifist.
Quarians seem broke as all get out, but they still manage to arm everything they have, so I can't think of other excuses.
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Basquemercat117
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Sept 26, 2018 17:00:36 GMT
Given the prevalence of slavers in universe especially, it's my opinion that a spacecraft without armaments or armed guards on board is asking for trouble. But it's not like it doesn't make any sense. Maybe Joe Smuggler is too cheap to put guns on his operation's freighters. Maybe he's a dumb pacifist. Quarians seem broke as all get out, but they still manage to arm everything they have, so I can't think of other excuses. i mean they were able to arm an entire fleet in a short amount of time.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 17:22:30 GMT
I think it's a topic the game debates both sides of the issue, particularly in the discussion in ME3 with the shop keepers in the Presidium Commons about the civilian militia. In deciding that conversation, you decide for yourself where your beliefs lie.
In real life - Cruise ships are being attacked by pirates, do we arm them with missiles and such? Planes were being hijacked, instead of putting in security to keep weapons off planes, should it have been recommended that every passenger on board with a weapon and armed every steward and stewardess? Personally, I'm for keeping as many weapons out of circulation as possible (but hey, I'm a Canadian).
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 27, 2018 14:32:28 GMT
It's a definite flaw in the universe.
Such things as going to a whole other galaxy, with zero armament on either your ships or the space station intended to house a large portion of your population, is a lesson in stupidity given the established nature of the setting.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 20, 2018 22:50:33 GMT
I guess it depends on how settled you view the galaxy. Relating it to water travel 300 years ago you’d be armed, now you aren’t. My impression most of the galaxy is more now like, but areas near the terminus system are more waters 300 years ago like. So I’d expect human colony ships to be armed fairly often, asari ships almost never armed.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 20, 2018 22:53:09 GMT
It's a definite flaw in the universe. Such things as going to a whole other galaxy, with zero armament on either your ships or the space station intended to house a large portion of your population, is a lesson in stupidity given the established nature of the setting. Yes, that was stupid. Also I felt the ambassador discussion where you stop the angaran diplomatic guards from being armed was stupid. You should have been given the option to agree with them. Allowing armed guards for diplomats who aren’t yet sure of your nature seems a no brainer.
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Post by Vortex13 on Nov 21, 2018 14:26:09 GMT
It's a definite flaw in the universe. Such things as going to a whole other galaxy, with zero armament on either your ships or the space station intended to house a large portion of your population, is a lesson in stupidity given the established nature of the setting. Yes, that was stupid. Also I felt the ambassador discussion where you stop the angaran diplomatic guards from being armed was stupid. You should have been given the option to agree with them. Allowing armed guards for diplomats who aren’t yet sure of your nature seems a no brainer. It really is a jarring dichotomy that BioWare created with Andromeda. "Oh no, we're just explorers. We would never have barbaric weapons on our ships and land vehicles, that would go against our mission of peace." They say on one hand, while Ryder Jr. and Co. are walking around with more firepower, technological armament, and offensive biotics than Shepard and his/her team could ever dream of having.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 21, 2018 16:32:05 GMT
we don't arm civilian cruises or cargo ships. Not sure why it should be different because of them being "Space Cruise Ships" and "Space Cargo Ships". Do we really want civilian ships armed and potentially able to band together to become a threat?
As far as Tempest, I generally agree. It should have had some weapons. I thought the idea was that it was faster without weapons but going into the unknown is reason enough. Or, even if the Tempest itself had no weapons, it should have had an armed escort. That said, the plan was to have the Nexus as a hub while multiple planets were colonized. Then they'd build their armed ships. That plan all went to hell.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 21, 2018 21:47:13 GMT
we don't arm civilian cruises or cargo ships. Not sure why it should be different because of them being "Space Cruise Ships" and "Space Cargo Ships". Do we really want civilian ships armed and potentially able to band together to become a threat? As far as Tempest, I generally agree. It should have had some weapons. I thought the idea was that it was faster without weapons but going into the unknown is reason enough. Or, even if the Tempest itself had no weapons, it should have had an armed escort. That said, the plan was to have the Nexus as a hub while multiple planets were colonized. Then they'd build their armed ships. That plan all went to hell. We are a settled planet though. The galaxy for much of it isn’t. They have a entire species that raids colonies for slaves on their border. A border that the batarians don’t agree with. Add in crazy levels of piracy a huge mercenary gang thing entire sectors run by criminal empires and um yeah we would let civilians ships arm themselves. And they would.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 26, 2018 22:26:45 GMT
I don't think it is a flaw in logic at all. Much like planes, there are vastly more civilian/corporate unarmed spaceships than military/paramilitary/security armed spaceships. Unarmed ships getting attacked is likely a rare occurrence; Shepard just seemingly ends up having to deal with a few of them in the trilogy. P.S. Thermal clips are better. Planes and space ships are two different creatures. In space it is far closer to modern day ships which piracy is a problem due to vessels being attacked. They even made a movie with Tom Hanks about it.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Nov 28, 2018 5:17:51 GMT
The entire thing should have been set up with a mission that gives you a better idea of both sides of the argument. It's not a flaw it's just cheap filler and a prelude to the kind of stuff we'd see in later games.
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Post by aoibhealfae on Dec 3, 2018 5:24:06 GMT
....the whole arming the civilian ship is just a terrible and dumb idea. It only take someone with bigger gun to kill you.
As in case on Rannoch, arming the civilian ship only get them being seen as a threat and shot down. As Joker said, you don't put guns on school busses.
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Dec 3, 2018 21:08:57 GMT
....the whole arming the civilian ship is just a terrible and dumb idea. It only take someone with bigger gun to kill you. As in case on Rannoch, arming the civilian ship only get them being seen as a threat and shot down. As Joker said, you don't put guns on school busses. ok so here is the thing with the war for Rannoch. you can defiantly argue that the whole war was stupid, but logically within the context of war is inevitable and you are dealing with the geth of things, you need every ship you can get your hands on. having ships that have no defense at all in a all or nothing war against an enemy that shows no quarter to even unarmed civilian ships is a stupid idea. and even in the game they weren't ever used for front line fighting, they were built to support the main front line ships. they were desperate so they did whatever the could to survive. so war arming the life ships with dreadnought cannons the perfect solution, no. was it the best solution for the mess they got themselves into? yeah it was. also if your ship has no way to defend itself, it can be the biggest ship but a smaller ship with armament can take it down.
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Post by AnDromedary on Dec 3, 2018 21:12:57 GMT
I'd say it depends. The problem with the Mass Effect Universe is that the environment is not really that consistent. In Mass Effect 1, the universe feels much less explored, even council space (and especially the Attican Traverse) seems to have much less infrastructure than in ME2/3. Therefore, I'd say the scenario in ME1 reminds me much more of the wild west or the high seas in the 18th/19th century. There even merchant vessels were fairly heavily armed and civilian transports had armed personal. The reason of course is that they had to rely on themselves for protection while traversing much longer distances (in terms of time away from the nearest outpost/harbor) on their own and they couldn't call for help quickly or easily. In that scenario, for every vessel to have at least some rudimentary armament makes sense. In ME2/3, I think the galaxy (at least council space) seems like a much more orderly affair, well policed and guarded. This may have been to distinguish it more from the more lawless terminus systems but still. Therefore, much like in today's world, there is no need for civilian ships to be armed since help (or at least communication) is fast and it is safer to constrain the availability of arms, rather than relying on every single ship or person to defend themselves. In that scenario unarmed civilian ships may actually make them safer, since the monopoly of force lies with the governments and any armed non-governmental vessel can be legally impounded, making pirate life over all more risky. The reaper invasion changes all that of course, as we have seen. For the Andromeda expedition basically not to be armed at all was of course a bit of a stupid idea but IMO, that was very much consistent with the general stupidity of that expedition as a whole. I applaud the writers for keeping their stupidity at maximum level at all times.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 1, 2019 22:45:53 GMT
Easier to control your populace when they are completely dependent on your for protection. Government 101.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 2, 2019 21:40:04 GMT
Easier to control your populace when they are completely dependent on your for protection. Government 101. I think there's a difference between allowing citizens to bear arms and arming cargo ships that become targets due to having weapons. Ask the quarians about it.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 3, 2019 3:18:34 GMT
I think there's a difference between allowing citizens to bear arms and arming cargo ships that become targets due to having weapons. Ask the quarians about it. Well it is all about scale, isn't it? I wouldn't let civilian build dreadnaughts nor more than I'd let a civilians own nuclear weapons. I consider armed spacecraft to be a reasonable interpretation of "self defense" or personal arms in Mass Effect. I probably would only permit this on the borders of settled space; so you couldn't fly around the Citadel or Bekenstein or Earth, ect, with an armed ship. Not unless you'd undergone the proper background checks and obtained the right certifications. However ships traveling in less secure regions where piracy and slaving are rampant ought to be permitted adequate means of self-defense.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 3, 2019 11:56:59 GMT
Some good the "no weapons = no threat" philosophy did for the Initiative when they encountered the Khett in Andromeda. In fact, the reason why the Khett were such a problem is specifically because the Initiative lacked the capacity to fight back in any way except on foot.
Indeed, there is even a side mission to locate missing shuttles that touches upon this point perfectly. Because the settlers' ships and transports lacked any sort of defensive armament the Khett actually increased their pursuit of refugees when they would flee the colonies. It was only after one shuttle weaponized it's drive core, destroying the pursuing Khett ships, that the attacks stopped.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 3, 2019 18:28:03 GMT
Tempest made no sense since they were exploring the unknown. Civilian ships are another because weapons, which will not be military grade, will be targets.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Jan 10, 2019 14:40:31 GMT
I'm sorry but the whole, "don't arm civilian vessels because it makes them a target" makes no sense. If I'm a pirate/slaver/kett/whatever I'm going after the civilians who can't fire back, not the ones who can.
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Post by griffith82 on Jan 12, 2019 3:45:05 GMT
....the whole arming the civilian ship is just a terrible and dumb idea. It only take someone with bigger gun to kill you. As in case on Rannoch, arming the civilian ship only get them being seen as a threat and shot down. As Joker said, you don't put guns on school busses. ok so here is the thing with the war for Rannoch. you can defiantly argue that the whole war was stupid, but logically within the context of war is inevitable and you are dealing with the geth of things, you need every ship you can get your hands on. having ships that have no defense at all in a all or nothing war against an enemy that shows no quarter to even unarmed civilian ships is a stupid idea. and even in the game they weren't ever used for front line fighting, they were built to support the main front line ships. they were desperate so they did whatever the could to survive. so war arming the life ships with dreadnought cannons the perfect solution, no. was it the best solution for the mess they got themselves into? yeah it was. also if your ship has no way to defend itself, it can be the biggest ship but a smaller ship with armament can take it down. They wouldn't have been seen as a threat so no it was stupid to arm them.
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Post by griffith82 on Jan 12, 2019 3:46:51 GMT
Tempest made no sense since they were exploring the unknown. Civilian ships are another because weapons, which will not be military grade, will be targets. I love Andromeda but I see both sides of it. However some weapons should have been on the ship, but at the same time wouldn't have given the best first impression.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 12, 2019 13:37:42 GMT
Tempest made no sense since they were exploring the unknown. Civilian ships are another because weapons, which will not be military grade, will be targets. I love Andromeda but I see both sides of it. However some weapons should have been on the ship, but at the same time wouldn't have given the best first impression. As long as I didn't have weapons pointed at them, I'd risk having them over potentially being destroyed. I would think any sentient species we might encounter would understand that.
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