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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 14, 2020 1:10:37 GMT
Physical and geometric horizon are the same thing. In this case, no, light cannot travel from beyond horizon. By your definition horizon is a line that separates sky and earth, you cant see earth form beyond it. Using one of the links you provided, for an oberver in point O, point H on pic.2 represents horizon that we can see. It lies beyond point G, which is what i called 'shape of earth' previously. Point G is what your calculation of 'about 1.23 miles times the square root of the eye height in feet' refers to, it could be horizon only if light travels in straight line (no refraction) which is possible only if there is no air on a planet. pic. 1. no refraction pic.2 with refraction So you're saying the light of the horizon at H is traveling up and around horizon at G and into the viewer at S?
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Post by skekSil on Mar 14, 2020 15:37:30 GMT
In this case, no, light cannot travel from beyond horizon. By your definition horizon is a line that separates sky and earth, you cant see earth form beyond it. Using one of the links you provided, for an oberver in point O, point H on pic.2 represents horizon that we can see. It lies beyond point G, which is what i called 'shape of earth' previously. Point G is what your calculation of 'about 1.23 miles times the square root of the eye height in feet' refers to, it could be horizon only if light travels in straight line (no refraction) which is possible only if there is no air on a planet. pic. 1. no refraction pic.2 with refraction So you're saying the light of the horizon at H is traveling up and around horizon at G and into the viewer at S? Viewer eyes are at point O. Point G is not a horizon on pic. 2 . It can only be horizon when no refraction occurs at all that is when no atmosphere is present.(pic.1)
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 14, 2020 16:41:47 GMT
So you're saying the light of the horizon at H is traveling up and around horizon at G and into the viewer at S? Viewer eyes are at point O. Point G is not a horizon on pic. 2 . It can only be horizon when no refraction occurs at all that is when no atmosphere is present.(pic.1) ^ Found this image online. Do you agree with it?
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Post by skekSil on Mar 14, 2020 18:25:09 GMT
Viewer eyes are at point O. Point G is not a horizon on pic. 2 . It can only be horizon when no refraction occurs at all that is when no atmosphere is present.(pic.1) ^ Found this image online. Do you agree with it? Yes this is pretty much the image I used, only small complaint - their definition of geometric horizon doesn't fit the one you provided.
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 14, 2020 19:56:25 GMT
^ Found this image online. Do you agree with it? Yes this is pretty much the image I used, only small complaint - their definition of geometric horizon doesn't fit the one you provided. Correct. By definition there can only be one horizon and it's never geometric as National Geographic claims. To say there are two horizons is superfluous. Lets look at the wiki definition; "The horizon or skyline is the apparent line that separates earth from sky, the line that divides all visible directions into two categories: those that intersect the Earth's surface, and those that do not. The true horizon is actually a theoretical line, which can only be observed when it lies on the sea surface." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HorizonThis is the correct definition, an apparent (not actual) line that separates earth from sky. As in, the sky never touches the sea surface, just appears that way. ^ Just like driving down a long tunnel, may appear like the ceiling is touching the ground...
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Post by skekSil on Mar 14, 2020 21:59:10 GMT
Yes this is pretty much the image I used, only small complaint - their definition of geometric horizon doesn't fit the one you provided. Correct. By definition there can only be one horizon and it's never geometric as National Geographic claims. To say there are two horizons is superfluous. Lets look at the wiki definition; "The horizon or skyline is the apparent line that separates earth from sky, the line that divides all visible directions into two categories: those that intersect the Earth's surface, and those that do not. The true horizon is actually a theoretical line, which can only be observed when it lies on the sea surface." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HorizonThis is the correct definition, an apparent (not actual) line that separates earth from sky. As in, the sky never touches the sea surface, just appears that way. pic.2 Horizon is just a word and can be used to name different things, like word 'nail', for example, can mean different things. There is cosmological horizon, particle horizon, event horizon all of which refer to things that dont have anything to do with earth. So, while point H is a horizon according to your definition, point G may be called, for example, 'geometric horizon' because it simply needs name and is relevant to understanding what is 'actual horizon'. Admitently this may and, indeed, has caused some confusion. The problem is worsened as there seem to be lack of consistant naming convention and so we see names like: local horizon, geometric, physical, apparent, visible, geographical horizon which are used inconsistently by people online. In order to avoid this confusion I propose that we use our own naming convention for the purposes of this discussion. Lets use 'practical horizon' for a visible line that separates earth from sky the way we see it in reality (point H on pic.2). An 'ideal horizon' is a line that would be 'practical horison' if atmospheric refraction doesnt exist and light travels only in straight lie (point G on pic.2). 'Ideal horizon' is about 3,46 miles away from an observer at 8 feet. So, returning to the original picture of drilling platforms we can say that these platforms are indeed further away than 'ideal horizon' but because of the extreme atmospheric refraction 'practical horizon' is much further away. Under different atmospheric conditions 'practical horizon' might be much closer and drilling platforms might be partially hidden beyond horizon.
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 14, 2020 22:14:10 GMT
Correct. By definition there can only be one horizon and it's never geometric as National Geographic claims. To say there are two horizons is superfluous. Lets look at the wiki definition; "The horizon or skyline is the apparent line that separates earth from sky, the line that divides all visible directions into two categories: those that intersect the Earth's surface, and those that do not. The true horizon is actually a theoretical line, which can only be observed when it lies on the sea surface." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HorizonThis is the correct definition, an apparent (not actual) line that separates earth from sky. As in, the sky never touches the sea surface, just appears that way. pic.2 Horizon is just a word and can be used to name different things, like word 'nail', for example, can mean different things. There is cosmological horizon, particle horizon, event horizon all of which refer to things that dont have anything to do with earth. So, while point H is a horizon according to your definition, point G may be called, for example, 'geometric horizon' because it simply needs name and is relevant to understanding what is 'actual horizon'. Admitently this may and, indeed, has caused some confusion. The problem is worsened as there seem to be lack of consistant naming convention and so we see names like: local horizon, geometric, physical, apparent, visible, geographical horizon which are used inconsistently by people online. In order to avoid this confusion I propose that we use our own naming convention for the purposes of this discussion. Lets use 'practical horizon' for a visible line that separates earth from sky the way we see it in reality (point H on pic.2). An 'ideal horizon' is a line that would be 'practical horison' if atmospheric refraction doesnt exist and light travels only in straight lie (point G on pic.2). 'Ideal horizon' is about 3,46 miles away from an observer at 8 feet. So, returning to the original picture of drilling platforms we can say that these platforms are indeed further away than 'ideal horizon' but because of the extreme atmospheric refraction 'practical horizon' is much further away. Under different atmospheric conditions 'practical horizon' might be much closer and drilling platforms might be partially hidden beyond horizon. Lets discuss the 5 effects of refraction to gain some better understanding of the two pictures. The five effects are; Miraging Looming Stopping Sinking Towering If the image on the left is claimed to be looming refraction, why can't the image on the right be sinking refraction?
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Post by skekSil on Mar 15, 2020 0:42:13 GMT
Lets discuss the 5 effects of refraction to gain some better understanding of the two pictures. The five effects are; First, I'd like to know whether you understand my explanation and agree with my point that this image is a result of refractional distortion I believe its called stooping. If the image on the left is claimed to be looming refraction, why can't the image on the right be sinking refraction? It is possible. In fact my last sentence in previous post accounts for such possibility. Under different atmospheric conditions 'practical horizon' might be much closer and drilling platforms might be partially hidden beyond horizon. This image can be both sinking or looming.
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 15, 2020 11:34:33 GMT
Lets discuss the 5 effects of refraction to gain some better understanding of the two pictures. The five effects are; First, I'd like to know whether you understand my explanation and agree with my point that this image is a result of refractional distortion I believe its called stooping. If the image on the left is claimed to be looming refraction, why can't the image on the right be sinking refraction? It is possible. In fact my last sentence in previous post accounts for such possibility. Under different atmospheric conditions 'practical horizon' might be much closer and drilling platforms might be partially hidden beyond horizon. This image can be both sinking or looming. Refractional distortion sounds pretty broad stroke. Lets focus in on individual refraction effects, starting with looming. ^ Are you fine with this explanation and demonstration of looming?
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Post by skekSil on Mar 15, 2020 13:41:52 GMT
First, I'd like to know whether you understand my explanation and agree with my point that this image is a result of refractional distortion I believe its called stooping. It is possible. In fact my last sentence in previous post accounts for such possibility. This image can be both sinking or looming. Refractional distortion sounds pretty broad stroke. Lets focus in on individual refraction effects, starting with looming. ^ Are you fine with this explanation and demonstration of looming? Looks ok. Your original gifs are also the result of looming.
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 15, 2020 17:33:12 GMT
Refractional distortion sounds pretty broad stroke. Lets focus in on individual refraction effects, starting with looming. ^ Are you fine with this explanation and demonstration of looming? Looks ok. Your original gifs are also the result of looming. First, why is the boat loomed but not the horizon underneath the boat?
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Post by skekSil on Mar 15, 2020 20:39:15 GMT
Looks ok. Your original gifs are also the result of looming. First, why is the boat loomed but not the horizon underneath the boat? This video suggests that this is a form of mirage:
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 15, 2020 21:39:31 GMT
First, why is the boat loomed but not the horizon underneath the boat? This video suggests that this is a form of mirage: Correct. It's not looming. ^Even Mick West got wrong. It's not fog as he claimed. ^ It actually is a Fata Morgana, but of the sky being miraged + inverted on the water, not the ship. As demonstrated in this image where you can see the clouds inverted and mirrored.
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Post by skekSil on Mar 15, 2020 22:19:17 GMT
Correct. It's not looming. OK, we've established that. And?
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 15, 2020 22:24:17 GMT
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Post by skekSil on Mar 15, 2020 22:30:30 GMT
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 15, 2020 22:36:08 GMT
First, it's an equivocation fallacy (Using an ambiguous term in more than one sense, thus making an argument misleading). Second, a physical horizon is assumed. Third, images being bent around a physical horizon is assumed.
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Post by skekSil on Mar 15, 2020 23:36:24 GMT
First, it's an equivocation fallacy (Using an ambiguous term in more than one sense, thus making an argument misleading). A little advice here, don't call out logical fallacy names when you spot them. It's meant to be a tool to categorize and quicly recognize these fallacies, which should help you come up with proper response, not an excuse to post meme images, it can only succeed in pissing off the other party. Also, there is no equivocation here. Second, a physical horizon is assumed. Third, images being bent around a physical horizon is assumed. You will have to expand on this one. I can only guess what do you mean there.
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 15, 2020 23:57:46 GMT
First, it's an equivocation fallacy (Using an ambiguous term in more than one sense, thus making an argument misleading). A little advice here, don't call out logical fallacy names when you spot them. It's meant to be a tool to categorize and quicly recognize these fallacies, which should help you come up with proper response, not an excuse to post meme images, it can only succeed in pissing off the other party. Also, there is no equivocation here. Second, a physical horizon is assumed. Third, images being bent around a physical horizon is assumed. You will have to expand on this one. I can only guess what do you mean there. Edited the meme in because thought it did a good job explaining the fallacy. And it is equivocation because it's used to explain different phenomena (looming and Fata Morgana mirage). As for what I mean, the question is being begged (argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it).
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Post by skekSil on Mar 16, 2020 0:27:49 GMT
Edited the meme in because thought it did a good job explaining the fallacy. That is the point, dont call it out, explain where your opponent has made an error or use that error against his argument. Calling it out just gives you smug points. And it is equivocation because it's used to explain different phenomena (looming and Fata Morgana mirage). what is used to explain different phenomena? As for what I mean, the question is being begged (argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it). What is the premise you are talking about? What is the conclusion? Please lay out your argument fully, in one post, we have been conversing for several days already and I havent seen what is your position on this yet.
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 16, 2020 11:35:45 GMT
Edited the meme in because thought it did a good job explaining the fallacy. That is the point, dont call it out, explain where your opponent has made an error or use that error against his argument. Calling it out just gives you smug points. And it is equivocation because it's used to explain different phenomena (looming and Fata Morgana mirage). what is used to explain different phenomena? As for what I mean, the question is being begged (argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it). What is the premise you are talking about? What is the conclusion? Please lay out your argument fully, in one post, we have been conversing for several days already and I havent seen what is your position on this yet. So just explaining a definition without providing the word being defined? The reason we provide the word and definition is so that eventually when folks get caught up with what the words mean, we can save on time by calling it for what it is without having to explain the meaning of a word. We don't say a piece of orange colored fruit that you peel and is juicy on the inside, we say orange or orange fruit. Again. Equivocation fallacy. Double meaning of a word. The word is looming refraction effect. The double meaning for this word is both for looming and Fata Morgana mirage (though people aren't aware they're also wrongfully using it to describe a Fata Morgana). My position is that when it comes to globe earth evidence, it always starts with begging the question; assuming that the globe earth theory is 100% correct first, then work backwards with ad hoc hypothesis to compensate for anomalies not anticipated by the theory (ie. we don't see the geometric horizon? Well it's got to be there somewhere because I believe the earth is 100% globe. We see too far? Well has to be refraction because I believe the earth is 100% globe). Never the other way around, where one works logically forward.
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 16, 2020 16:11:47 GMT
skeksi Had a discussion about equivocation and it's more like a bait and switch. So got it backwards, a common mistake. For example, someone talking about Newtonian gravity (outdated gravity) and all of a sudden they slip in it's the bending of space time (current gravity). Two different definitions (Newtonian & Einstein), one word (gravity). An example of equivocation for refraction would be Andrew Thomas Young (subject matter expert) talking about refraction on a plane, then tying it together to a globe.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 17, 2020 4:19:18 GMT
My position is that when it comes to globe earth evidence, it always starts with begging the question; assuming that the globe earth theory is 100% correct first, then work backwards with ad hoc hypothesis to compensate for anomalies not anticipated by the theory (ie. we don't see the geometric horizon? Well it's got to be there somewhere because I believe the earth is 100% globe. We see too far? Well has to be refraction because I believe the earth is 100% globe). Never the other way around, where one works logically forward. But surely this is equally true the other way?
If someone is looking at the same evidence with the assumption the Flat Earth hypothesis is 100% correct, then any anomalous discrepancies like this are "proof" to a Flat Earth advocate that the Globe Earth theory is false. The Flat Earth never supposes that the theory might still be true, but require an additional step in that instance to explain the seeming anomalies being observed.
The issue many have with Flat Earthers is that their "logic" seems to operate on the belief that any hurdles that a theory must work to overcome automatically disprove it, as if all explanations for things must be extremely simple and cannot require multiple layers to them.
If a light-switch fails to turn on the light as expected, Flat Earther logic would seemingly conclude that the light-switch never turned on the light at all. Whereas a scientist would look at that and conclude that either the switch had broken, the bulb had gone, the power might have gone out, the breakers have tripped, or any other factors that might explain why the light had not going on as it should have. The scientific method is built on the idea that if your initial hypothesis fails to match your results, you change your hypothesis.
Even though the theories governing gravity and nuclear forces both work in isolation, there is currently no way to reconcile them with another, but that does not mean both are false. It only means that if we ever manage to discover a Grand Unified Theory, then both theories will have to be adjusted to include whatever we're missing that bridges the two.
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Post by Terminator Force on Mar 17, 2020 14:22:59 GMT
My position is that when it comes to globe earth evidence, it always starts with begging the question; assuming that the globe earth theory is 100% correct first, then work backwards with ad hoc hypothesis to compensate for anomalies not anticipated by the theory (ie. we don't see the geometric horizon? Well it's got to be there somewhere because I believe the earth is 100% globe. We see too far? Well has to be refraction because I believe the earth is 100% globe). Never the other way around, where one works logically forward. But surely this is equally true the other way?
If someone is looking at the same evidence with the assumption the Flat Earth hypothesis is 100% correct, then any anomalous discrepancies like this are "proof" to a Flat Earth advocate that the Globe Earth theory is false. The Flat Earth never supposes that the theory might still be true, but require an additional step in that instance to explain the seeming anomalies being observed.
The issue many have with Flat Earthers is that their "logic" seems to operate on the belief that any hurdles that a theory must work to overcome automatically disprove it, as if all explanations for things must be extremely simple and cannot require multiple layers to them.
If a light-switch fails to turn on the light as expected, Flat Earther logic would seemingly conclude that the light-switch never turned on the light at all. Whereas a scientist would look at that and conclude that either the switch had broken, the bulb had gone, the power might have gone out, the breakers have tripped, or any other factors that might explain why the light had not going on as it should have. The scientific method is built on the idea that if your initial hypothesis fails to match your results, you change your hypothesis.
Even though the theories governing gravity and nuclear forces both work in isolation, there is currently no way to reconcile them with another, but that does not mean both are false. It only means that if we ever manage to discover a Grand Unified Theory, then both theories will have to be adjusted to include whatever we're missing that bridges the two.
Incorrect. The earth is observably flat and stationary, concrete noun, therefore it's the default position. The positive claim is on the globe side, therefore burden of proof is on them.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 19, 2020 8:20:04 GMT
Incorrect. The earth is observably flat and stationary, concrete noun, therefore it's the default position. The positive claim is on the globe side, therefore burden of proof is on them. Incorrect, the curvature of the Earth, it's rotational and orbital periods are are all easily observable phenomena that conform to scientific models that all work in concert with one another, therefore the Globe theory is the default position according to science.
The burden of proof is on those trying to demonstrate how the Earth is flat. So far, none of the FE proposed models work in concert, nor do they explain all of the data in a satisfactory manner that would firmly demonstrate that the Earth is a flat disc standing perfectly still.
That's why the Globe Earth theory supplanted the Flat Earth. It wasn't because of any conspiracy, but because all the scientific data that was gathered supported the globe model, while disproving the flat model entirely.
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